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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / May 2008

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Neutralizing Iron in MultiVites?

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RF - 06 May 2008 03:49 GMT
Anyone know what are the best supplements to bind
with the iron in a multivite and neutralize it?

If the iron dose is 9 mg, how much of the
supplements would be needed?

TIA
Mark Thorson - 06 May 2008 03:56 GMT
> Anyone know what are the best supplements to bind
> with the iron in a multivite and neutralize it?

Wouldn't it be better to buy an iron-free
supplement?  That's what I do.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 06 May 2008 09:32 GMT
> Anyone know what are the best supplements to bind
> with the iron in a multivite and neutralize it?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> TIA

I agree with Mark but I'll make a couple of
suggestions. Phytic acid or phyate. I dimly
recall Beyond A Century sell it (so I maybe mistaken).
Some take it in a patented combination with
inositol. Perhaps you can skip red meat while
taking the product. Whole grains that haven't been
subject to yeast tend to be good source of
phytic acid. I am not a fan of the multivit mineral
tablets. Mush (raw old fashioned oat flakes, wheat flakes
in the morning, skip the bread, and
no red meat.

I am of the opinion mineral tablets should
contain minerals and perhaps an acid source,
B-vitamins Bs and a few relate
chemicals and no vit C, and the fat soluble should be either
separate or with other fat solubles, and vitamin C  can
have rutin, quercetin and similar. This makes
for better control by user and better product stability.

The Multi have vitamin D and A in the wrong ratios.
Copper and iron likely speed the degradation of
viamins C and E. Plus it is impossible to pack in
enough inositol, choline, and betaine to do very much.

Multiples are just a poor idea and are too often one size fits
all or most.
RF - 08 May 2008 01:08 GMT
>> Anyone know what are the best supplements to bind
>> with the iron in a multivite and neutralize it?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> TIA

Thanks Mark and Ron.

> I agree with Mark but I'll make a couple of
> suggestions. Phytic acid or phyate. I dimly
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> in the morning, skip the bread, and
> no red meat.

I'm a vegetarian. I have rolled oats/milk for
breakfast.

> I am of the opinion mineral tablets should
> contain minerals and perhaps an acid source,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Multiples are just a poor idea and are too often one size fits
> all or most.

The multivite I have in mind is Costco's - Premium
Performance - E.g. it has
especially powerful B vitamins: B1 (350%), B2
(353%), B6 (500%), B12 (500%)
and the price is very good.

I agree that all multivite pills are not balanced
for the vites and minerals.
I take a much larger Vit  D-3 supplement and my A
comes from eating lots of sweet
potatoes. I know there is blockage between iron,
calcium, copper, zinc, etc but, if I knew the
blockage rules, I could adjust and balance.

Here is the complete list and the price of 300
tabs is $11.70. (online price + shipping)

Kirkland Signature™ Premium Performance™
Multivitamin 300 Tablets
31 Vitamins & Minerals For Energy & Health†

Supplement Facts:
Serving Size: 1 Tablet
Each Tablet Contains - % Daily Value:
Vitamin A 5000 IU (66% as Beta Carotene) 100%,
Vitamin C 120 mg - 200%, Vitamin D 400 IU - 100%,
Vitamin E 75 IU - 250%, Vitamin K 80 mcg - 100%,
Thiamin (Vit. B1) 5.25 mg - 350%, Riboflavin (Vit.
B2) 6 mg - 353%, Niacin 50 mg - 250%, Vitamin B6
10 mg - 500%, Folic Acid 400 mcg - 100%, Vitamin
B12 25 mg - 417%, Biotin 60 mcg - 20%, Pantothenic
Acid 10 mg - 100%, Calcium 165 mg - 17%, Iron 9 mg
- 50%, Phosphorus 130 mg - 13%, Iodine 150 mcg -
100%, Magnesium 50 mg - 13%, Zinc 15 mg - 100%,
Selenium 200 mcg - 286%, Copper 3.5 mg - 175%,
Manganese 7.5 mg 375%, Chromium 200 mcg - 167%,
Molybdenum 75 mcg - 100%, Chloride 90 mg - 3%,
Potassium 100 mg - 3%, Boron 60 mcg - *, Nickel
6.5 mcg - *, Silicon 4 mg - *, Tin 10 mcg - *,
Vanadium 10 mcg - *, Lutein 250 mcg - *, Lycopene
300 mcg - *, Asian Ginseng Root (Korean Root
(Korean white) Extract 55 mg (Panax ginseng)
(standardized to 7% Ginsenosides 3.85 mg) - *,
Ginkgo Biloba Extract (Ginkgo biloba) (leaf)
(standardized to 24% (14.4 mg) Ginkgo Flavone
Glycosides) 60 mg - *.

How would like to figure how all these interact
with, and block, one another?  ;-)
Mark Thorson - 08 May 2008 02:37 GMT
> Copper 3.5 mg - 175%,

Why do you think it is a good idea to take any
copper at all, much less such a large amount?
Copper deficiency is very rare.  Excess copper
may cause Alzheimer's Disease.

J Alzheimers Dis. 2007 Jun;11(3):371-83.
A rabbit model of Alzheimer's disease: valid at
neuropathological, cognitive, and therapeutic
levels.
Woodruff-Pak DS, Agelan A, Del Valle L.
Department of Psychology, Temple University,
Philadelphia, PA 19122, USA.

Supplementing a rabbit's diet with 2% cholesterol
alone or with a trace amount of copper created
neuropathological changes that resembled those seen
in Alzheimer's disease (AD). AD model rabbits were
impaired in eyeblink classical conditioning; a form
of learning severely impaired in AD. Our aim was
to replicate AD rabbit model neuropathology, test
eyeblink conditioning in this model, and determine
if galantamine (Razadyne) would ameliorate impaired
conditioning. In Experiment 1 rabbit chow with 2%
cholesterol and drinking water with 0.12 mg/liter
copper sulfate were administered for 10 weeks.
Control rabbits received normal food and water.
Rabbit brains were probed for neuropathology. AD
model rabbits had significant neuronal loss in
frontal cortex, hippocampus and cerebellum. Changes
in neurons in the hippocampus were consistent with
neurofibrillary degeneration and cytoplasmic
immunoreactivity for amyloid-beta and tau.
In Experiment 2 AD model rabbits were injected
daily with vehicle or 3.0 mg/kg galantamine and
tested on 750 ms trace and delay eyeblink
conditioning. Galantamine improved eyeblink
conditioning significantly over vehicle. The AD
rabbit model has validity from neuropathological
to cognitive levels and offers a promising
addition to the available animal models of AD.
Galantamine ameliorated impaired eyeblink
conditioning, extending the validity of the AD
rabbit model to treatment modalities.

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Sep 16;100(19):11065-9.
Trace amounts of copper in water induce beta-amyloid
plaques and learning deficits in a rabbit model
of Alzheimer's disease.
Sparks DL, Schreurs BG.
Sun Health Research Institute, 10515 West Santa Fe
Drive, Sun City, AZ 85351, USA.

Despite the crucial role played by cholesterol and
copper in nutrition and normal brain function,
recent evidence indicates that they may both be
important factors in the etiology of Alzheimer's
disease (AD). Here we provide critical evidence
for the role of cholesterol and copper in AD by
showing that the addition of trace amounts of
copper (0.12 ppm) to water given to cholesterol-fed
rabbits can induce beta-amyloid (Abeta)
accumulation, including senile plaque-like
structures in the hippocampus and temporal lobe,
and can significantly retard the ability of rabbits
to learn a difficult trace conditioning task. The
Abeta deposits do not affect the ability of rabbits
to detect or respond to the training stimuli nor to
learn a simpler delay conditioning task. Trace
amounts of copper in drinking water may influence
clearance of Abeta from the brain at the level of
the interface between the blood and
cerebrovasculature and combined with high
cholesterol may be a key component to the
accumulation of Abeta in the brain, having a
significant impact on learning and memory.
Cholesterol-fed rabbits have at least 12
pathological markers seen in AD, suggesting that
the cholesterol-fed rabbit is a good animal model
for studying AD.
Jan Drew - 09 May 2008 04:00 GMT
>> Copper 3.5 mg - 175%,
>
> Why do you think it is a good idea to take any
> copper at all, much less such a large amount?
> Copper deficiency is very rare.  Excess copper
> may cause Alzheimer's Disease.

http://www.lightparty.com/Health/SilverFillings.html

The Evidence Linking Silver-Mercury
Fillings to Alzheimer's Disease
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 09 May 2008 10:47 GMT
As to the copper and iron in supplements,
I suspect both will tend to relatively harmless
as the doses mentioned in person not prone
to excess accumulation. This is the type of
thing that in the future good genetic/metabolic
testing could direct a person how to eat or what
job not to take. Not making enough alpha
trypsinase don't become a smoker or fire fighter.
Prone to Wilson's avoid copper. etc.

Also it should be noted that food processing tends
to favor retaining copper and losing zinc. These
two seem to have an antagonistic relationship.

That said I don't take iron or copper in supplemental form
most of the time.
I will say you'll be surprised that some foods are
quite rich in copper ie. liver.

> > Copper 3.5 mg - 175%,
>
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
> the cholesterol-fed rabbit is a good animal model
> for studying AD.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 09 May 2008 11:00 GMT
> trigonometry1...@gmail.com | wrote:
> >> Anyone know what are the best supplements to bind
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
> How would like to figure how all these interact
> with, and block, one another?  ;-)

Sometimes I think the companies hire monkeys
that throw darts at a wall to set the vitamin/nutrient values.
Meaningless tiny amounts of herbs, too little biotin,
skip the iron, cut to copper to 0.5 to 0.75 mg at most,
change chromium source, change vitamin E form, increase
the vitamin K levels and change to K2 MK4, have 1000
IU of vitamin D3 not D2, drop the calcium and phosphorus,
improve the magnesium source to just about anything
other than magnesium oxide, increase the B-5, etc.
RF - 15 May 2008 06:11 GMT
>> trigonometry1...@gmail.com | wrote:
>>>> Anyone know what are the best supplements to bind
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
> improve the magnesium source to just about anything
> other than magnesium oxide, increase the B-5, etc.

I'd say that's the case for most supplements.
However, at
least Costo's is USP certified, which should give
it some credibility.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 15 May 2008 14:15 GMT
> trigonometry1...@gmail.com | wrote:
> >> trigonometry1...@gmail.com | wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 96 lines]
> least Costo's is USP certified, which should give
> it some credibility.

That should mean it will contain what it says it does.
It still doesn't mean they've got a clearly though out
formula. I recall back in the day, writing to LEF
to suggest they remove iron from their high potency
nutrient powder which they promptly did.
They also had (and may still) have a version
without copper. That was 30 years ago that
LEF changed its formula.

(skipped my own rant)
RF - 15 May 2008 17:03 GMT
>> trigonometry1...@gmail.com | wrote:
>>>> trigonometry1...@gmail.com | wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
>
> (skipped my own rant)

Hey, that's impressive. I tried several times to
persuade Costco
to drop the iron , even including copies of
studies with my emails
but, it was like talking to a cash register.

I think the time is long overdue for tightening up
the regulations on
supplements.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 16 May 2008 09:40 GMT
> trigonometry1...@gmail.com | wrote:
> >> trigonometry1...@gmail.com | wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 109 lines]
> the regulations on
> supplements.

I absolutely disagree. Rather what is need is an enforcement
of already existing ones. Make the supplements contain
what they say the contain. Check for impurities.
Regulatory bodies represent the interest of the big drugs
companies and have little real interest in supplement
other than using regulations a means of suppression
and even of capturing vitamin-like substances for
the prescription market. Take a look the corrupt
Canadians and  their ban on melatonin, yet it permits the
sale of Rosezem a melatonin receptor agonist
(a poorly executed one at that) or even worse
the benzodiaepine by prescription. Forgetting
melatonin has other uses than just sleep.

If you think it hard to get a company to change a formula
imagine when the formulation is locked in by some
fossilized bureaucracy or institution. The
reason that Costco sells outmoded formulas is that
what they have sells. People go in to Costco
and buy a big bottle of racemic "vitamin E" and
think they are helping there health. Whereas,
they a lowering their vitamin K status and lowering
the gamma tocopherol levels. Try explaining
that concept to a pinhead Bureaucrat....he'll
say we gotta pass a reg as everyone to stupid
to figure this out. Then the pinhead will go
to work for Statin drug maker after he leave
government service. And then all you will be able
purchase is a 30 milligram dose of racemic vitamin E
due the new regs you so lust after. Or maybe
30 IUs of pure rrr-alpha tocopherol but forget
the gamma tocopherol or the tocotrienols.

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