An interesting web link discussing the speculative memory of water
theory of Homeopathy can be found here:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/homeop.html
Regarding the famous experiments which I have identified in earlier
postings as a possible key to establishing theoretical validity for
Homeopathic mechanism of actions, the author of this web page,
Martin Chaplin, had THIS to say (at the web site, the numbered
references have links to the research citations):
"A controversial paper in Nature [132] containing data from several
laboratories, claiming to prove the efficacy of extreme dilution (the
'memory of water' [1112])a has not been generally accepted after the
results were reported as not reproducible under closely controlled and
observed (by Nature's self-acknowledged biased observers), but
strained, overly-demanding and unsympathetic, conditions with negative
results from only one laboratory being cherry-picked from amongst
otherwise positive results [133]. The original results [132] were,
however, confirmed in a blinded study by the statistician Alfred Spira
[346e] and also in a rather bizarre Nature paper purporting to prove
the opposite [346b],b and were subsequently comprehensively confirmed
by a blinded multi-center trial [346a]. In spite of this apparent
confirmation by several laboratories, there are still doubts over
whether the experiments are truly reproducible and whether the noted
effects may be due to the origin of the biological samples or human
operator effects [1362]."
In a long series of previous postings interrupted as usual by skeptics
of this newsgroup, denial and/or misinterpretation of the above facts
was rampant.
We have here, for the first time, a succinct reference to the research
citations for all to see and follow.
In addition, a link is given to the criticism of the BBC "refutation"
of Ennis' experiments in which the following astonishingly frank
admission is made:
->from Dana Ullman MPH web site at:
http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/view,59
"WAYNE TURNBULL:
"The degranulation protocol that we use was never portrayed as a
replication of Dr Ennis's methodology."
"If this experiment was not a replication of Dr. Ennis' trial, then
whose trial was it? Who agreed to this trial that he conducted? No
one!"
Examples such as this expose the non-thinking
of the skeptic quackers who, apparently, regard Turnbull's non-
repetition as the definitive refutation of
Ennis' positive results because it got (surprise!) negative results.
And THIS pathetic pap is offered in all seriousness by the skeptics as
the "science" that they use to attack alternative medicine.
Unable to accept real physical data in Acupuncture research and going
through all sorts of contortions to avoid accepting independent
confirmation of Ennis'
Homeopathy mechanism indicative famous experiment, the skeptics have
turned themselves into far worse than the quacks they see under their
bed.
Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 03 May 2008 08:39 GMT
>An interesting web link discussing the speculative memory of water
>theory of Homeopathy can be found here:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>results were reported as not reproducible under closely controlled and
>observed (by Nature's self-acknowledged biased observers),
Ah, the Benveniste paper. All that happened there is that the
experiment was blinded and poof, the amazing results disappeared. Miss
Davenas (and Mr. Jamal) were no longer capable of counting the
basofils is such a way that the result would please their boss. Even
Benveniste saw there was something funny going on, because nobody but
Jamal and Davenas could get the same results. But in stead of looking
if these two did something wrong, he tried to get a paper published on
'The Jamal Effect'. It seems water only has a memory when that effect
is present. Sure.
> but strained, overly-demanding and unsympathetic, conditions with negative
>results from only one laboratory being cherry-picked from amongst
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>the opposite [346b],b and were subsequently comprehensively confirmed
>by a blinded multi-center trial [346a].
No, Miss Davenas repeated the research, using the same unblinded
protocol (note: it's not the whole protocol that is unblinded, it's
unblinded at a crucial point). Just compare the names on the repeat
research and the names on the original research. But since you think
that repeating the same mistake over and over again (or fraud,
depending how you look at it) is real science, you'll probably ignore
it.
> In spite of this apparent
>confirmation by several laboratories, there are still doubts over
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>And THIS pathetic pap is offered in all seriousness by the skeptics as
>the "science" that they use to attack alternative medicine.
Didn't you claim over and over again that the report on the Ennis
research was never published? So how can you know these things? I say
you're making it up.
>Unable to accept real physical data in Acupuncture research
> and going through all sorts of contortions to avoid accepting independent
>confirmation of Ennis'
>Homeopathy mechanism indicative famous experiment, the skeptics have
>turned themselves into far worse than the quacks they see under their
>bed.
Ever heard of professor Edzard Ernst? He was a practicing homeopath
and chiropractor. He now done many years of research into both
homeopathy and acupuncture. When he started out, the alties were
elated! One of their own doing the research would surely lead to
irrufatable evidence that their methods worked. And what is prof.
Ernst' conclusion after many years of research? Homeopathy and
acupuncture are all just a placebo effect. Now of course, the alties
don't like him anymore.
>Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac - 03 May 2008 16:50 GMT
Oh! I almost forgot to mention ->
PLEASE DISREGARD RESPONSES FROM RESPONDENTS
WHO EITHER PROVIDE NO LINKS, DO NOT BACK UP THEIR WILD AND ILLOGICAL
CLAIMS WITH CITATIONS, REFERENCES OR OTHER SUPPORTING EVIDENCE
INVOLVING AT LEAST THE SEMBLANCE OF LOGICAL THOUGHT, or resort to
ridicule, insults or other non-arguments.
Exchanging comments with them is a waste of time until they come to
realize that productive discussions between people who disagree on
various issues is possible, and in fact welcome - discussions
involving reason, logic, citations, links, information rather than
INNUENDO as the basis for informed opinion.
Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 03 May 2008 22:34 GMT
>Oh! I almost forgot to mention ->
>PLEASE DISREGARD RESPONSES FROM RESPONDENTS
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Citizen Jimserac
So you haven't read the article in Nature about Benveniste or any
other of the many articles available on that. None. And you still have
the cojones to say I use innuendo etc. Very sad.
You can read the account of John Maddox, who was there, or James
Randi's, who was also there, in person, on the spot, while the
research was being done. And when it failed.