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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / May 2008

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Dark Ages CANCELLED - Expulsion of the SKEPTICS

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Citizen Jimserac - 01 May 2008 14:21 GMT
The first step in the expulsion of the
skeptics is stop allowing them to pretend
that there is any logic whatever
to their hysterical nonsense, personal attacks
and ridicule characteristic of their
"informed" postings.

Typically they will make sweeping generalities
supported by nothing but the most specious
reasoning and innuendo.

Martin, for example, considers Acupuncture
to be a sham.  Though he never provided
a link, I was able to find a single German
study which indicated that one out of
3 groups of test subjects for Acupuncture
for back pain seemed to get positive
results no matter where the needles
were placed.  Martin forgets to mention
that the main group DID claim
the highest benefit (those for whom
the needles were placed in the
traditional acuncture locations)
DID claim the most benefit for relief from
back pain.

Based on this ONE study, as opposed to
thousands of others, Martin admits there
is some effect but
that ALL of Acupuncture is a sham or
based on placebo effects.

Observe the simplistic nonsense of
the reasoning behind this denial
of the efficacy of Acupuncture -
OF COURSE there is going to
be some effect, some sensation
if you poke a needle anywhere in the
body, it MIGHT even distract from
some chronic pain.  But to claim
that THIS is
the "explanation" of ALL of Acupuncture
is to ignore thousands of research
studies, done by MD's and other
fully qualified researchers showing
effects of Acupuncture (done in the
traditional points!) showing effects
on aplastic anemia, the endocrine system,
amelioration or elimination of migraines,
comlete cure for Bell's palsy and
on and on for hundreds of conditions
many of which are recognized by
the World Health Organization.

When challenged or given links
showing the positive research,
they either ignore it, or more frequently
deny completely the validity
of the research journals which print
the research (look of astonishment
on my face)!

Imagine if we did that with standard
medicine!  Suppose we say that
ALL cancer research is to be disregarded
because it appears in standard medicine
cancer research journals and is therfore
biased(!).

Such is the kind of arguments which
appear against alternative medicine
again and again, repeated by the fallacious
and presumptious posters who brazenly
try to foist this non-thinking innuendo
as rational argument.

Formerly dominating this newsgroup,
they have now receded somewhat to the
background, and will continue to do
so in the face of the overwhelming
evidence, positive research and
wide popular acceptance and embracement
of the new (and some old!) alternative
systems of medicine.

That these alternatives systems of medicine
are now in the process of challenging
and even DISPLACING some of the
standard medical procedures which
have fallen deservedly into disfavor,
is proof of the wide popular realization
that there is NO one true perfect system
of medicine which replaces all others
and that a wise INTEGRATIVE approach
utilizing the best of MANY systems
is the wise choice in this era
of spiraling and out of control
medical costs, declining services
and inability of governments to
support a sufficient health infrastructure.

Citizen Jimserac
jurimed2@yahoo.com - 01 May 2008 15:35 GMT
> The first step in the expulsion of the
> skeptics is stop allowing them to pretend
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
>
> Citizen Jimserac

Very good analysis.  You're right on target - and you said so much
nicer than I would have.  One thing you missed, I think, is that the
people you find here are more "pseudo-skeptic" than skeptic.  Sort of
the K-Mart copy of designer skepticism.

Skeptics themselves, I think, are a lower form of critic - the sort of
people who, upon examination, you will find, have never accomplished
anything, nothing at all, and are mentally incapable of that kind of
action.  They don't get invited to neighborhood parties, and they
don't understand why people snub them, and shun them.

The trick I have found is to treat them with the respect they deserve
- which is virtually NONE.  Coming across a skeptic in your daily
affairs is kind of like taking a walk through the park on a bright,
sunny, day and suddenly stepping in fresh dog sh.t.  The best thing to
do is to get it wiped off quickly, and finish your nice, enjoyable
walk...  Even better is if you can find a skeptic to wipe your shoe
off on.

Amused in California...

Tim Bolen
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 01 May 2008 17:50 GMT
On May 1, 7:35 am, jurim...@yahoo.com wrote:

> The trick I have found is to treat them with the respect they deserve
> - which is virtually NONE.  Coming across a skeptic in your daily
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> walk...  Even better is if you can find a skeptic to wipe your shoe
> off on.

I have to agree with you here about the skeptics or the "doubters."
Common sense dictates what is too good to be true, and personal
experience
over rides what I call "skeptic think."    Consumers have the right to
purchase
whatever they wish to purchase; and if they purchase something that
does not
do whatever it is they say they do, then they have choices to get
their money
back.  Some products come with a money back guarantee, some come with
a
limited warranty, and some products come with zero guarantees.

I just moments ago had an in-house telephone conversation, with
someone that is
assisting me in getting whomever is bugging me electronically out of
my life, which
started in my former residence area and has continued to this day.  It
is not illegal
where I live to practice alternative medicine nor be a consumer of
such products.
It was also not illegal to partake in alternative medicine in my
former residence area nor
to be a consumer of such products, and since I have not specifically
told anyone where
I live in this forum, there will be questions to be answered as to the
why the necessity
of continuing to track my whereabouts.    It would appear to be an
abuse of the governmental
security program.
Coleah - 01 May 2008 18:06 GMT
On May 1, 9:35 am, jurim...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > The first step in the expulsion of the
> > skeptics is stop allowing them to pretend
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
>
> Tim Bolen

Spoken directly from the character of a +$100,000 IRS tax
deadbeat.....who has demonstrated his ability for 'wiping dog sh.t' on
all taxpayers of America.  Isn't he 'cutesy'?  Winky, winky.
jurimed2@yahoo.com - 02 May 2008 08:21 GMT
> On May 1, 9:35 am, jurim...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 129 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Coleah:

Have you considered kicking in some money to help Polevoy?

You seemed SO SUPPORTIVE of his actions before, why aren't you
helping
him now?  $50,000 from you would keep the wolf away from his door a
little longer, don't you think?

What's the problem?  Don't you feel any guilt, or remorse, for
encouraging that little rodent ,while he was falsely attacking Ilena
Rosenthal, the selfless health leader who the California Supreme
Court
almost annointed for Sainthood in their decision?

Cough up some cash.  You, and yours, LOST...

Steadfast in California...

Tim Bolen
David Wright - 05 May 2008 04:14 GMT
>> On May 1, 9:35 am, jurim...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>Rosenthal, the selfless health leader who the California Supreme
>Court almost annointed for Sainthood in their decision?

That doesn't sound like any Rosenthal I've heard of.  I do know of a
self-aggrandizing individual who has identified herself with the
breast implant issue...

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
Citizen Jimserac - 01 May 2008 19:28 GMT
On May 1, 10:35 am, jurim...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > The first step in the expulsion of the
> > skeptics is stop allowing them to pretend
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
>
> Tim Bolen

Thanks!

Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 01 May 2008 15:43 GMT
: Typically they will make sweeping generalities
: supported by nothing but the most specious
: reasoning and innuendo.

P.K.B., especially considering your continued refusal to accept my offer
to explain to you the statistical problems in determining the efficacy
of a therapy under investigation.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"I have always observed that when people are interrupted in the
performance of some egregious stupidity their feelings are hurt."
            -- Anthony Trollope, _Ayala's Angel_
drceephd@insightbb.com - 01 May 2008 16:06 GMT
> The first step in the expulsion of the
> skeptics is stop allowing them to pretend
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
>
> Citizen Jimserac

If you wished to INTERGRAGTE naturopathy, orthopathy, oriental med,
ayuervedic, chiropractic,etc.,  I could agree.

However, we must absolutely forbid the practice of allopathy and their
efforts to "poison the ill into getting well."  Those who practice
this muderous philosophy must be shunned and probably imprisoned for
their quackery.

DrCee
You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
D. C. Sessions - 01 May 2008 16:30 GMT
> However, we must absolutely forbid the practice of allopathy and their
> efforts to "poison the ill into getting well."  Those who practice
> this muderous philosophy must be shunned and probably imprisoned for
> their quackery.

I appreciate your frankness in stating your platform.

I do see a few problems, though, in distinguishing the
sheep (as it were) from the goats given that several
"alternative" practices accept key parts of what you
call "allopathy."

| sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
+--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 01 May 2008 17:11 GMT
> Formerly dominating this newsgroup,
> they have now receded somewhat to the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> of the new (and some old!) alternative
> systems of medicine.

However, CJ, as you will notice -- they are going through their menu
of items which would appear to come from the QW pages of unacceptable
health care practices---even read a newspaper article in the UK this
a.m., where it would appear that there are skeptics trying to  engage
the public in believing that those that practice  alternative medicine
are "Kooks."
Just as we have seen in this newsgroup for ages.   What happened to
"for liberty and justice for all?"  Where's the liberty?
Where is the Justice?
Citizen Jimserac - 01 May 2008 19:26 GMT
On May 1, 12:11 pm, Butterflies1...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Formerly dominating this newsgroup,
> > they have now receded somewhat to the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> "for liberty and justice for all?"  Where's the liberty?
> Where is the Justice?

Well said!  The situation is even worse than
you suggest.  If people allow themselves to be swayed
by the innuendo, pseudo logic and ridicule
of the pseudo skeptic "quackers",  this represents
a switching OFF of their thinking ability and permanently
bars valid research from getting the disemination,
funding and discussion that is needed in a free and open
scientific exchange of ideas.

As you say, this is happening in the UK right now where
a concerted and near hysterical UNscientific attack
has been waged against Homeopathy for over a decade.
Overlooked is the wonderful work at the Royal London Homeoapthic
Hospital's full embracement of SEVERAL alternative medcine
modalities including Acupuncture, and a growing body
of Homeopathic research indicates the potential of
major breakthroughs, poking holes in the  "iron curtain" of orthodoxy
which has fallen across research, stifling innovation and discovery
and frightening younger researchers into the conformity
of accepted but unpromising pharma "approved" channels.

Even when Homeopathic treatments provide overwelhming
evidence of success, it is disparaged and dismissed as "just"
an application of Herbology (for low potency low dilution
Homeopathic remedies) or a violation of Avodadro's
law (for high potency high dilution) remedies.
Dismissing completely the obvious amelioration,
cure, or improvement in the patient's condition,
the dark ages ortho-ducks quack on and on
about statistical violations while completely
ignoring the possibility and potential that
major illnesses, such as the "bird" flu, may
have viable treatments that can save lives.

We will no longer suffer the solemn pronouncements
of the self appointed skeptical quackologists,
ready at every turn to dismiss ALL research,
disparage valid researchers, reduce ALL alternative
medicine to "placebo" (sic) effect - all without
lifiting a finger, reading a book, supplying one
or two pathetic links on anything whatsoever
and then act as though they have
conclusively made some major refutation
based on their imagined reductionistic pap.

Thanks
Citizen Jimserac
Mark Probert - 01 May 2008 20:21 GMT
On May 1, 12:11 pm, Butterflies1...@gmail.com wrote:

> Just as we have seen in this newsgroup for ages.   What happened to
> "for liberty and justice for all?"  Where's the liberty?
> Where is the Justice?

Citizen Jimserac wants to expel people who disagree with him.

Why are you not supporting their free speech?
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 03 May 2008 18:16 GMT
> Why are you not supporting their free speech?

Very interesting comment -- I spoke to an attorney for the ACLU the
other day---concerning my civil liberties---people using keystroke
programs on my computer-hacking into my system, changing passwords on
email accounts with out permission, recording in home conversations,
eavesdropping on telephone conversations, etc., it would appear that
there may be individuals connected to this forum that dislike
alternative health care so much that they are harassing them in their
own homes.

That comes across as violations of 1st amendment rights, would you not
agree    I really like the keystroke programs running on my computer.
It adds such a wonderful touch to my life.

I'm looking forward to next week - there will be a lot of cleaning
going on in my life and others as well!!
D. C. Sessions - 03 May 2008 19:03 GMT
>> Why are you not supporting their free speech?

> Very interesting comment -- I spoke to an attorney for the ACLU the
> other day---concerning my civil liberties---people using keystroke
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> alternative health care so much that they are harassing them in their
> own homes.

> That comes across as violations of 1st amendment rights, would you not
> agree

No, for two reasons:
1) It's not (at least as you have alleged it) and act of the Government,
  and thus would not fall under the Bill of Rights at all.
2) If it *were* an act of the Government it would fall under the Fourth
  Amendment, not the First.

I'm afraid your attorney got his law degree from a box of snack food.

> I really like the keystroke programs running on my computer.
> It adds such a wonderful touch to my life.

That would be a violation of the Computer Crime and Abuse statute.

> I'm looking forward to next week - there will be a lot of cleaning
> going on in my life and others as well!!

No comment.

| sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
+--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 03 May 2008 22:38 GMT
> I'm afraid your attorney got his law degree from a box of snack food.

He's not MY attorney.
D. C. Sessions - 03 May 2008 23:24 GMT
>> I'm afraid your attorney got his law degree from a box of snack food.
>
> He's not MY attorney.

That's good, because his ideas of Constitutional law would
have flunked him out of primary-school civics.  At a guess,
he's lying about being an attorney at all.  You might
consider reporting him to the State Bar.

| sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
+--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
MothWrangler - 04 May 2008 01:32 GMT
>>>Why are you not supporting their free speech?
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> I'm afraid your attorney got his law degree from a box of snack food.

Perhaps in this case, ACLU stands for Alternative Civil Liberties Union,
and the attorney in question is practicing some kind of alternative to
mainstream Constitutional Law.

The *American* Civil Liberties Union attorneys who I know personally or
by reputation are top notch, and would not make such an egregious
mistake of basic Constitutional law.

Signature

Proud member since 2007, WWWSC #1
Ann/Emma Anne #4

David Wright - 03 May 2008 19:53 GMT
>> Why are you not supporting their free speech?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>That comes across as violations of 1st amendment rights, would you not
>agree

I would not agree, unless the persons doing this were agents of the
government.  If they're private citizens, it's not a first amendment
issue, though it's probably criminal.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 04 May 2008 05:09 GMT
> I would not agree, unless the persons doing this were agents of the
> government.  If they're private citizens, it's not a first amendment
> issue, though it's probably criminal.

I'm sure the people that post here know exactly what I am talking
about.  It goes back to
1997, and I'm sure the individuals connected never thought I'd put the
puzzle together.
MothWrangler - 04 May 2008 07:27 GMT
>>I would not agree, unless the persons doing this were agents of the
>>government.  If they're private citizens, it's not a first amendment
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 1997, and I'm sure the individuals connected never thought I'd put the
> puzzle together.

*I* don't know what you're talking about.

(Does anyone here other than Bee know what Bee's talking about? If so,
please clue me in.)

It seems to me, Bee, that if you're going to keep posting and posting
and posting about this hacking of your computer, and surveillance of
your computer and phone activities, and you know that the persons who
are responsible for this surveillance either post to, or monitor, (or
control?!) the posting activity on MHA, why you can't just come right
out and tell us exactly who "they" are, and why "they" are after you,
and why "they" decided to take the actions that they have.

What do you have to gain by being so secretive about who "they" are?

Wouldn't it be better for you, and for the innocent MHA posters, if you
named names already, so we all know who the perpetrators of this
nefarious plot against you are, and why they have you under such
intrusive and highly expert surveillance for something that dates back
to 1997?

Wouldn't you be safer if you identified who "they" are who are out to
get you, and explain to us what they hope to gain?

Although, you must at least feel somewhat good that, as powerful as
"they" surely must be, "they" are concerned enough about you that "they"
are keeping tabs on you, both on the Internet and in your home. "They"
obviously feel you are very important indeed, and influential, and very
very dangerous to whatever it is that "they" control. If "they" didn't
think so, they wouldn't pay any attention to you.

Signature

Proud member since 2007, WWWSC #1
Ann/Emma Anne #4

Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 04 May 2008 18:46 GMT
> (Does anyone here other than Bee know what Bee's talking about? If so,
> please clue me in.)

As an attorney, as it is rumored that you are -- I'm sure you are
aware of client-attorney privilege.  You
are neither my attorney nor am I your client, (and I'd like to get the
rumor straightened out, if you are not an attorney, please),   It is
just a "head's up" to the individuals that post here that I now know
about the connection, and it has something to do to with the
Environmental Health Clinic in Dallas, and Dr. Rea  and another
connection.
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 04 May 2008 23:01 GMT
> > (Does anyone here other than Bee know what Bee's talking about? If so,
> > please clue me in.)

Interestingly, it would appear that my first stay at the Environmental
Health Clinic
was beneficial to other parties --and I'm not talking at all about
what transpired with
Dr. Rea at the clinic -- but it would appear to have benefited the
ears of others.
While I was at the clinic during my stay there, there was a guy that
they called,
the crazy Russian, who bugged the lights in the hallway at the Clinic,
and a business Manager
who claimed the computers were stolen so they had to had to put inside
security in the hallways
of the clinic -- never thought much of the sleazy business manager
(they got wise and terminated his butt),
and somehow the van driver, Michael managed to stay on-until they got
wise to him.    Neither the less,
there are a couple of other connections that are pretty sad when the
privacy of patients is compromised.
Mark Probert - 03 May 2008 20:12 GMT
On May 3, 1:16 pm, Butterflies1...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Why are you not supporting their free speech?
>
> Very interesting comment -- I spoke to an attorney for the ACLU the
> other day---

How conveniently timely. You seem to have a certain knack for this.

concerning my civil liberties---people using keystroke
> programs on my computer-hacking into my system, changing passwords on
> email accounts with out permission, recording in home conversations,
> eavesdropping on telephone conversations, etc., it would appear that
> there may be individuals connected to this forum that dislike
> alternative health care so much that they are harassing them in their
> own homes.

let me ask you a question and please provide a direct answer.

What you describe (surveillance, home invasion, etc.) is something so
sophisticated that it would cost major time and MONEY.

What makes you so important that anyone in their right mind would
spend the time and money for such an attack?

> That comes across as violations of 1st amendment rights, would you not
> agree    

No, I would not agree. Do read the First Amendment and try real hard
to figure out why. I'll give you a starter. The First Amendment states
that "Congress shal make no law...."

> I really like the keystroke programs running on my computer.
> It adds such a wonderful touch to my life.

You are a touch typist.

> I'm looking forward to next week - there will be a lot of cleaning
> going on in my life and others as well!!

I recall that you made some sort of similar claim years ago, and we
waited....

and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...
and waited...

and then you stopped posting.
D. C. Sessions - 03 May 2008 20:49 GMT
> I recall that you made some sort of similar claim years ago, and we
> waited....
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> and then you stopped posting.

Which only goes to PROVE that "they" succeeded in
silencing her Frea Speach!

| sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
+--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 03 May 2008 22:36 GMT
> Which only goes to PROVE that "they" succeeded in
> silencing her Frea Speach!

Not all.  By the way have you ever heard of an ISP in Phoenix called
Global Crossings?    There seems to be a love affair with my computer
and that
ISP, amongst other ones.  Wasn't McCain involved with them somehow??
D. C. Sessions - 03 May 2008 23:23 GMT
> Not all.  By the way have you ever heard of an ISP in Phoenix called
> Global Crossings?    There seems to be a love affair with my computer
> and that
> ISP, amongst other ones.  Wasn't McCain involved with them somehow??

Global Crossing was one of the big-name telecom expansion outfits
during the dot-com bubble.  They bought out my previous ISP
(primenet.com) and dropped their end-user ISP business in favor
of doing corporate hosting.

As far as I'm aware, they are still pretty much exclusively
a hosting service.

Any connection to Senator McCain (aside, obviously, from
doing business in his state) is news to me.  Can't honestly
say that I've been keeping tabs on either.

| sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
+--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 03 May 2008 22:23 GMT
...
> and waited...
> and waited...
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> and then you stopped posting.

Waiting drives people absolutely up the wall---does it not?
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 03 May 2008 22:33 GMT
> What you describe (surveillance, home invasion, etc.) is something so
> sophisticated that it would cost major time and MONEY.
>
> What makes you so important that anyone in their right mind would
> spend the time and money for such an attack?

Of course it does.

It would appear that there are individuals here that know exactly what
I am talking about -
why doncha you have them explain?  (You appear to know them,
and stick up for them all of the time).
MothWrangler - 04 May 2008 07:02 GMT
>>What you describe (surveillance, home invasion, etc.) is something so
>>sophisticated that it would cost major time and MONEY.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> why doncha you have them explain?  (You appear to know them,
> and stick up for them all of the time).

Well, I haven't a clue what you're alluding to.

Are you someone real important to the government for some reason?

Signature

Proud member since 2007, WWWSC #1
Ann/Emma Anne #4

Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 06 May 2008 04:53 GMT
> Are you someone real important to the government for some reason?

Absolutely not, but there would appear to be individuals here that
have
lots of connections that are not in favor of alternative health
choices.

You know if you are speaking out for PRO choice in healthcare, you run
the
risk of being harassed by individuals that are in favor of "NO
CHOICE."
Individuals which appear to have conflicts of interest.

This is the only forum that I post in, and the problems that have been
on-going
since 1998 when I got ill, and have continued since then.   It would
appear that
anyone that speaks out in an alternative health care group for pro
choice is not
welcome in an alternative health newsgroup, and sadly are made to feel
what they
have to say is bunk.    It is all about choice; if it works for
someone, then why belittle them
because it does?   There are a lot of things I wouldn't try, but using
common sense about
something, you can tell the difference between snake oil, and
something that could work.

I would rather take part in preventive health practices.  As with the
MCS that I have managed
to  slowly overcome, that was by choice -- I did not want to become
the disease.  When you become the
disease you miss out so much on life.  I have friends with M.S., for
example, they have become
the disease.  They worry about all of the things they used to do, that
they cannot do any more, instead
of focusing on what they can still do, and other things they haven't
tried that they could do.    There was
no magic pill that I could take in conventional medicine that I could
take to overcome the disease; I had no
zero but to step outside of the conventional world, and add
alternatives to my life to overcome my problems
so I did not become the disease.  I have a friend with chronic fatigue
syndrome, and fibromyalgia -- she literally
stopped living because she became the disease instead of trying new
things because her prescription drugs
were not giving her life back to her.  I've got her juicing, and she
feels better.  You have to put everything in
focus -- it took a long time to sick, and you cannot expect a miracle
over night.  But as long as you have a goal
to shoot for, and surround yourself with positive people, and this is
what I expected this forum to be -- but it is not
what it is, it is the constant put down of individuals that try
something different than those individuals so focused on conventional
medicine 100%.

Most people that try alternative health therapies have that positive
attitude --- but the "grumpy old men and women" that hang out here and
put down individuals like myself to trying alternative health
therapies would appear to have other agendas that they have yet to
disclose.
Mark Probert - 06 May 2008 13:56 GMT
On May 5, 11:53 pm, Butterflies1...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Are you someone real important to the government for some reason?
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> CHOICE."
> Individuals which appear to have conflicts of interest.

That is a lie. No one opposes choice in health care. What is happening
is that YOU oppose anyone who speaks about the false claims of those
who promote alternatives, like ear candling.

YOU then whine about how they oppose choice. Bullshit. YOU oppose
discussion.
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 06 May 2008 16:17 GMT
> That is a lie. No one opposes choice in health care. What is happening
> is that YOU oppose anyone who speaks about the false claims of those
> who promote alternatives, like ear candling.
>
> YOU then whine about how they oppose choice. Bullshit. YOU oppose
> discussion.

The shoe is on the other foot.
Mark Probert - 06 May 2008 20:01 GMT
On May 6, 11:17 am, Butterflies1...@gmail.com wrote:

> > That is a lie. No one opposes choice in health care. What is happening
> > is that YOU oppose anyone who speaks about the false claims of those
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> The shoe is on the other foot.

Nope, dope, I placed it right where it belongs.

I described precisely what you do.

To bad if you do not like it.
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 06 May 2008 20:05 GMT
> Nope, dope, I placed it right where it belongs.
>
> I described precisely what you do.
>
> To bad if you do not like it.

Who are you calling a "dope?"  I'm hardly that.  What bugs you the
most
is that you are not used to a woman standing up to you and challenging
you.
It would appear that you dislike strong women, or anyone that does not
agree with you.
Kevysmom - 03 May 2008 23:49 GMT
On May 3, 1:16 pm, Butterflies1...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Why are you not supporting their free speech?
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I'm looking forward to next week - there will be a lot of cleaning
> going on in my life and others as well!!

what is a keystroke program?
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 04 May 2008 05:11 GMT
> what is a keystroke program?

There are plenty of computer experts around these parts, I'm sure one
of them
would be happy to tell you.
MothWrangler - 04 May 2008 01:55 GMT
>>Why are you not supporting their free speech?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> That comes across as violations of 1st amendment rights, would you not
> agree    

I don't agree--<conspiracy theory> unless...your computer related issues
are the result of the passage of some law that somehow resulted in the
take-over of your computer so you could not engage in free speech
</conspiracy theory>.

> I really like the keystroke programs running on my computer.
> It adds such a wonderful touch to my life.

I don't understand. Are you still using this computer? And, if so, why?

I've read some previous posts in which you indicated that your computer
was acting in a manner which would indicate that it had been hacked, or
that indicated that perhaps you had downloaded some kind of virus or
trojan that would allow someone to use it as a zombie computer. It seem
to me that your complaints that I read about this go back quite a while.
Yet, you write as though you continue to use the same computer while it
has the same issues.

I don't know why you'd want to use a computer which you know is
compromised, if for no other reason that your ISP will frown on the
spam, viruses, and other nasty things your computer may be spewing out
and sending into cyberspace.

> I'm looking forward to next week - there will be a lot of cleaning
> going on in my life and others as well!!

?? Are you going to some kind of group colon cleaning?

Signature

Proud member since 2007, WWWSC #1
Ann/Emma Anne #4

Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 06 May 2008 04:10 GMT
> I don't know why you'd want to use a computer which you know is
> compromised, if for no other reason that your ISP will frown on the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> --

Ofcourse I am still using the computer that is being compromised--with
the keystroke program.
It would appear that there are nosy individuals, and since I am not
doing anything illegal, and
law enforcement, and my ISP are fully aware of the situation, that it
would appear that it has
something to do with this forum as this is the only place I post, and
it would appear from the information
taken off of this computer, that I didn't put on there -- that there
would appear to be some individuals
that have entirely too much time on their hands, and getting into
someone else's business they would
appear to feel is their right.

Colon cleansing in two weeks.  I'm doing it to found out how much poop
comes out, so the information
came be given to David Wright.  I'm not buying the 40#s that came out
of John Wayne upon his death,
but I know that my transit time is 12 hours -you should go three times
a day according to healthcare providers,
but I'm not quite up to that.  But I do some juicing and that would
appear to have helped tremdously.

I know you are involved with autistic children -- there is some
research being done at a medical college using some
form of quantum physics.  My neighbor has an autistic child--and she
heard about it.  I told her before she packs her bags to let me
interview the researchers.  I guess the cost is minimal (almost
free).  Since the medications do not work for her daughter, and diet
does not seem to help, that any time anyone hears of anything, they
want to try before investigation.  If this therapy really works, what
a wonderful tool it will be.

No, the cleaning up refers to something completely different and that
this time I am not privy to share the information on this forum.
Mark Probert - 01 May 2008 20:20 GMT
> The first step in the expulsion of the
> skeptics

You call yourself "Citizen Jimserac" and want to expell people who
disagree with you. However, your 'nym becomes more and more Orwellian
with each passing day.

Why are you so afraid of people who refute your claims?

Usenet is the embodiment of Oliver Wendell Holmes' Free Marketplace of
Ideas.

Learn to live with it.
mindy - 01 May 2008 22:05 GMT
> > The first step in the expulsion of the
> > skeptics
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Learn to live with it.

> Usenet is the embodiment of Oliver Wendell Holmes' Free Marketplace of
> Ideas.
>
> Learn to live with it.
Very Nicely Put Mark!  and not to forget it's also marketplace of
"Free" ideas.
Mark Probert - 02 May 2008 13:38 GMT
> > > The first step in the expulsion of the
> > > skeptics
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Very Nicely Put Mark!  and not to forget it's also marketplace of
> "Free" ideas

Good point. OWH is one of my heroes.
David Wright - 02 May 2008 01:50 GMT
>The first step in the expulsion of the
>skeptics is stop allowing them to pretend
>that there is any logic whatever
>to their hysterical nonsense, personal attacks
>and ridicule characteristic of their
>"informed" postings.

You're not in a position to expell anyone from anything, and since you
seem to be less than a paragon of rationality yourself, I don't think
you're likely to be given that power.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
Citizen Jimserac - 02 May 2008 04:08 GMT
> In article <b8efad65-472f-489a-951a-c99bd9866...@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> CitizenJimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>      "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
>                                                       -- John Dolan

FOOL!  You have sucked up the purposeful
misinterpretation of "expulsion" promulgated
by one of their own number.  Of COURSE it is an
open newsgroup and the comments of ALL are welcome
as I have said many times.

So what is this "expulsion" all about?

These self appointed pseudo skeptics
have been symbolically expelled BY ME
from my conversations and I urge
others to do the same.   They no longer
deserve the dignity even of a response if they are
going to persist in their unreasoning protestations,
disruptions and distractions.

Well reasoned logical people exchange comments
and ideas based on facts, information, open minded
opinion, even when dealing with speculative science,
research and the unknown.   The persons in question
attempt to DENY ALL VALIDITY TO ENTIRE FIELDS
OF MEDICINE.  THIS is a kind of thought control
and the insidious part is that ANY attempt to engage
in well reasoned discourse with them ends up
becoming fodder for their pretend logic innuendo.

In other words, the act of attempting well reasoned
discourse with these people dignifies their
pseudo-arguments and allows them to subvert the process
of logic and maintain the illusion of a well reasoned
conversation.

I'm NOT going along with it any more and will
IDENTIFY such attempts and TERMINATE the conversation
in the future when it happens.

This attitude constitutes an EXPULSION of the skeptics mode
and modus operandi, hence of the skeptics themselves
until they are ready to use reason, provide
links or information supportive
of their sweeping negative assertions
and be ready to accept the indications of
reality and the validity of proof.

Citizen Jimserac
David Wright - 02 May 2008 04:59 GMT
>> In article
><b8efad65-472f-489a-951a-c99bd9866...@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>going to persist in their unreasoning protestations,
>disruptions and distractions.

And you're expelling them so completely that you still feel compelled
to reply to their every posting, announcing that you're ignoring them.

Pathetic and a waste of bandwidth.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 02 May 2008 05:47 GMT
> Pathetic and a waste of bandwidth.

You are, but of course, as it would appear to be describing yourself
on this forum, correct?
David Wright - 03 May 2008 03:07 GMT
>> Pathetic and a waste of bandwidth.
>>
>You are, but of course, as it would appear to be describing yourself
>on this forum, correct?

I realize that a lame riposte like that is all you're capable of, but
must you prove it?

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
Citizen Jimserac - 03 May 2008 03:36 GMT
> In article <86dfa7b9-97ed-4f83-839c-99127663f...@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I realize that a lame riposte like that is all you're capable of, but
> must you prove it?

>you still feel compelled
>to reply to their every posting

Wow, looks like you're a little compelled
there yourself, dude.

Citizen Jimserac
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 03 May 2008 18:04 GMT
> I realize that a lame riposte like that is all you're capable of, but
> must you prove it?

You must know by now that not everyone shares your same enthusiasm for
alternative health
experiences.

When you post nasty comments, you will get nasty comments back----
because you apparently like
to play in the mud ----slinging some back at you -- you do not like.
Being disrespectful to individuals
who do not share your biased narrow minded opinions would appear your
game-----I'm thinking of inventing
a BORED game and naming it after you.

I have yet to understand why you post here when it is apparent you
have no personal experience in anything
but attacking individuals that have made the choice to experience
different forms of alternative treatments,
Just because you read it in a book or on someone's website does not
necessarily make it true for all persons
nor does it make it false.

I've scheduled a colon cleansing for 2 weeks from now.  I'll let you
know how much poop comes out---
weight wise --- want to take any bets?
Mark Probert - 03 May 2008 20:06 GMT
On May 3, 1:04 pm, Butterflies1...@gmail.com wrote:

> > I realize that a lame riposte like that is all you're capable of, but
> > must you prove it?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> know how much poop comes out---
> weight wise --- want to take any bets?

You will shrink to an infinitely small point.
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 04 May 2008 05:10 GMT
> > I've scheduled a colon cleansing for 2 weeks from now.  I'll let you
> > know how much poop comes out---
> > weight wise --- want to take any bets?
>
> You will shrink to an infinitely small point.

No bets, Probert?   I'm guessing on 11 pounds or so.  :>)
David Wright - 04 May 2008 23:43 GMT
>> > I've scheduled a colon cleansing for 2 weeks from now.  I'll let you
>> > know how much poop comes out---
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>No bets, Probert?   I'm guessing on 11 pounds or so.  :>)

You have to subtract the weight of the water that was pumped in (and
came out again) so that you can get an accurate measurement.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
D. C. Sessions - 05 May 2008 00:00 GMT
>>> > I've scheduled a colon cleansing for 2 weeks from now.  I'll let you
>>> > know how much poop comes out---
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You have to subtract the weight of the water that was pumped in (and
> came out again) so that you can get an accurate measurement.

You can't tell her what she "has to" do.

More precisely, "you would have to subtract the weight ...
in order to get ..."  Which may not be what she wants.

| sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
+--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
Richard Schultz - 05 May 2008 06:00 GMT
: You can't tell her [Bee] what she "has to" do.

Especially since she doesn't believe in objective reality.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Butterflies1111@gmail.com - 06 May 2008 05:16 GMT
> You have to subtract the weight of the water that was pumped in (and
> came out again) so that you can get an accurate measurement.

I'm talking strictly about the items of interest including any worms,
and fiber as well.  We've already got a handle on how we are going to
make this work.    I say 11#----the colon therapist says 18#......any
side
bets?
David Wright - 07 May 2008 03:41 GMT
>> You have to subtract the weight of the water that was pumped in (and
>> came out again) so that you can get an accurate measurement.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>make this work.    I say 11#----the colon therapist says 18#......any
>side bets?

You're leaving yourself open for some really nasty jokes here, but I
shall heroically refrain.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
David Wright - 05 May 2008 04:16 GMT
>> I realize that a lame riposte like that is all you're capable of, but
>> must you prove it?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>When you post nasty comments, you will get nasty comments back----
>because you apparently like to play in the mud ----slinging some back
at you -- you do not like.  Being disrespectful to individuals
>who do not share your biased narrow minded opinions would appear your
>game-----I'm thinking of inventing a BORED game and naming it after
>you.

Gee, it's a good thing you're above "being disrespectful to
individuals who do not share your biased narrow minded opinions" or
I'd think you were doing it yourself.

>I have yet to understand why you post here when it is apparent you
>have no personal experience in anything but attacking individuals
>that have made the choice to experience different forms of
>alternative treatments,

It's a pity your ignorance has not allowed you to note that I've tried
quite a variety of alternative treatments, including homeopathy and
acupuncture.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
Citizen Jimserac - 02 May 2008 13:38 GMT
> In article <787001c4-fb2e-4a2f-a1a6-87f2020af...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> CitizenJimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> And you're expelling them so completely that you still feel compelled
> to reply to their every posting...

As they do to mine... EXACTLY!

Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 02 May 2008 15:35 GMT
>> In article <787001c4-fb2e-4a2f-a1a6-87f2020af...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>> CitizenJimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
>Citizen Jimserac

Well Jimmy, I never said that I was going to ignore you. You did say
on several occasions that you were going to ignore me. Which you then
didn't do. Not unexpected from an anti-vac liar.
David Wright - 03 May 2008 04:06 GMT
>> In article <787001c4-fb2e-4a2f-a1a6-87f2020af...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>> CitizenJimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
>As they do to mine... EXACTLY!

Big difference:  they're not trying to "expell" you.  Or tell everyone
not to reply to you.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
                                                     -- John Dolan
Citizen Jimserac - 03 May 2008 15:56 GMT
> In article <e997fdab-f5d5-479a-bd88-ac880f325...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> CitizenJimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>      "There are two kinds of Republicans:  millionaires and suckers."
>                                                       -- John Dolan

But I AM telling people there is NO reason to dignify
the unreasoned unsupported condemnations of the skeptic
quackers by responding to them as I have done for MONTHS.
Does a symbolic expulsion bother you?

Wasting my time, providing links, pointing out positive research
published in peer reviewed journals done by qualified researchers - it
means nothing to them.

Go.  Go talk with them.  Go talk with the one who thinks because he
gets an "effect" sticking a needle anywhere in his body, that that
somehow "refutes" all of Acupuncture and disproves the existence of
points and meridians.

Go waste time with the one who discounts ALL research in ALL
Homeopathic journals, without reading any of it and then proceeds to
discount Homeopathy.

Go exchange some ideas with the "chemist" who ends every insulting
post with some idiotic quote while attempting to
apply statistics, of all the damn things, to Human life.

You go and do it because I'm done with them unless I see
some GENUINE intelligence, links and reasoning in their postings which
they are fully capable of doing.

You do have one thing right, your quote on Republicans.

Citizen Jimserac
Mark Probert - 03 May 2008 20:05 GMT
> > In article <e997fdab-f5d5-479a-bd88-ac880f325...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> > CitizenJimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> quackers by responding to them as I have done for MONTHS.
> Does a symbolic expulsion bother you?

Not at all. However, it should bother you, as you are admitting that
you want to engage in bullying tactics topromte silencing of others.

> Wasting my time, providing links, pointing out positive research
> published in peer reviewed journals done by qualified researchers - it
> means nothing to them.

That is exactly what alties and homeopathic supporters do.

> Go.  Go talk with them.  Go talk with the one who thinks because he
> gets an "effect" sticking a needle anywhere in his body, that that
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> You do have one thing right, your quote on Republicans.

Complaining about altie tactics.
Jan Drew - 04 May 2008 00:23 GMT
"Mark Probert"

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: "M,a,r,k P,r,o,b,e,r,t-September 7, 2004" <M,a,r,k P,r,o,b,e,r,t
09-07...@lambercartel.com>

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-July 10, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
07-10...@lymbercartel.com>

From: M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 30, 2004
(M.a.r.k_P.r.o.b.e.r.t_04-30...@limbercartel.com)

Newsgroups: alt.support.cerebral-palsy, misc.handicap
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
06-11...@lombercartel.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:11:24 GMT
Mark Probert - 03 May 2008 20:03 GMT
> In article <e997fdab-f5d5-479a-bd88-ac880f325...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> Big difference:  they're not trying to "expell" you.  Or tell everyone
> not to reply to you.

Jimmy should take a course in bullying. What he proposed is nothing
more than what some bullies d, i.e. forbid others from talking to the
bully's target.
Jan Drew - 04 May 2008 00:49 GMT
"Mark Probert"

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: "M,a,r,k P,r,o,b,e,r,t-September 7, 2004" <M,a,r,k P,r,o,b,e,r,t
09-07...@lambercartel.com>

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-July 10, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
07-10...@lymbercartel.com>

From: M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 30, 2004
(M.a.r.k_P.r.o.b.e.r.t_04-30...@limbercartel.com)

Newsgroups: alt.support.cerebral-palsy, misc.handicap
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-June 11, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
06-11...@lombercartel.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:11:24 GMT

Newsgroups: alt.support.breast-implant
From: aloysio...@aol.com (AloysiousX)
Date: 05 Nov 2003 22:06:27 GMT
Local: Wed, Nov 5 2003 6:06 pm
Subject: Huh? For Sistah Ilena

Dear Sistah Ilena,

I don't know why you keep talking about me when you won't talk to me. I have
tried to be nice and polite but that doesn't seem to work. It just seems to
me
that if you would talk to me, all of your questions and confustion would be
answered.  I am not Mark Probert.  I am not the author of that analysis of
your
appeals court case.  Mark Probert is not the author of that analysis of your
appeals court case.

I don't remember if I asked you to compare Probert's writings with the style
of
the Translation, but I think you should.  The styles are very different.

Besides, except for the conclusion of the author, it really just sticks to
quotes from the decision and an interpretation of those quotes.  If you have
a
problem with it, then I suggest that you take up Brother Langer's challenge
and
respond to the analysis, point by point by point.

I came here seeking advice and information, not looking for a fight.  Why?
Because I've got friends and family members with breast illness and possible
implant issues, and I'd like to know more and be able to help them.

I said it before, I'm sort of close by you.  Or at least where Humantics is
or
was.  I'm in Central California, a little town called Marina, right on the
coast.  Yes, I know its not real nearby, but it is in the same state as San
Diego.

What else would you like to know? Jus talk to me, my sistah.

As-salaam Aleikum!

                AloysiousX

Subj: Is There Some Reason...
Date: 2/12/2004 2:18:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: AloysiousX
To: JDrew63929

Is there some reason why you won't let me ask you a few questions, Jan?  I'm
really curious about your involvement with Ilena Rosenthal.

But I guess my most basic question is whether or not you are in California
(like I am), or over in Indiana, like your profile says.

I had thought you were out west, but I guess not.

As Salaam Aleikum!

Aloysious
Mark Probert - 02 May 2008 13:40 GMT
> In article <787001c4-fb2e-4a2f-a1a6-87f2020af...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Pathetic and a waste of bandwidth.

and protoplasm.
Mark Probert - 02 May 2008 13:40 GMT
> > In article <b8efad65-472f-489a-951a-c99bd9866...@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> > CitizenJimserac <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
> Citizen Jimserac

IOW, you have decided to voluntarily develop rectocrania.
Mark Probert - 02 May 2008 13:38 GMT
> In article <b8efad65-472f-489a-951a-c99bd9866...@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> seem to be less than a paragon of rationality yourself, I don't think
> you're likely to be given that power.

Reminds me of the 1930's.

CJ may be planning a Krystalnacht.
Peter Moran - 02 May 2008 07:48 GMT
> The first step in the expulsion of the
> skeptics is stop allowing them to pretend
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> traditional points!) showing effects
> on aplastic anemia, the endocrine system,

Hey, steady on there!   I allow that acupuncture and sham acupunture can
seem to relieve symptoms (largely  via placebo responses) but I have not
seen a scrap of good evidence that acupuncture has any effect on any
important bodily function or disease process.  Nor do most acupuncturists
make such claims.   Nor does TCM theory, based as it is on prescientific
superstitions,   even acknowledge the existence of such diseases or body
systems.

The differences between sham acupuncture and real acupuncture in some trials
can be easily explained by  difficulties in blinding, or more painful sites
being more likely to have a distracting effect from symptoms.

PM.

> amelioration or elimination of migraines,
> comlete cure for Bell's palsy and
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac - 02 May 2008 14:44 GMT
> Hey, steady on there!   I allow that acupuncture and sham acupunture can
> seem to relieve symptoms (largely  via placebo responses) but I have not
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> PM.

Ah, but you offer actual explicit reasoning for your
positions which, though I disagree, makes it at
least possible to have some sort of rational
discussion.  Thank goodness.

You believe ALL Acupuncture tests are flawed
by being improperly blinded?  ALL tests done
by ALL the researchers?  OK, fine.
(side thought, well, that's a similar argument
to what I've heard about Homeopathy testing, hmmm).

How about the MRI's, electrical changes at the points,
thermographic imaging at the points - all very scientific,
modern and done with modern instruments.  Are ALL of
those experiments flawed too?

> but I have not
> seen a scrap of good evidence that acupuncture has any effect on any
> important bodily function or disease process.

How about they start doing REAL tests instead
of ASKING people if they feel better
after the Acupuncture.  That's too subjective
for my taste.  I'd really like, in that German
study, for them to do MRI's on ALL the subjects
and then see if there was a difference between
the sham Acupuncture and the real McCoy!

And likewise, I fully understand you are uncomfortable with
the theories of the Chinese themselves from hundreds of years
ago (or thousands!), obviously a pre scientifc period.

I am uncomfortable with "standard" medicine which
persists in the archaic theory that cutting open a patient
and removing an organ will cure them of cancer!

Thanks
Citizen Jimserac
Martin - 02 May 2008 15:38 GMT
>> Hey, steady on there!   I allow that acupuncture and sham acupunture can
>> seem to relieve symptoms (largely  via placebo responses) but I have not
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>and then see if there was a difference between
>the sham Acupuncture and the real McCoy!

Totally pointless if observer bias is not ruled out by proper
blinding. Have you read the German study and checked if there was
proper blinding there?

>And likewise, I fully understand you are uncomfortable with
>the theories of the Chinese themselves from hundreds of years
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>persists in the archaic theory that cutting open a patient
>and removing an organ will cure them of cancer!

What? Pray tell, which doctor where says that if you have cancer, an
organ *must* be removed?

>Thanks
>Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac - 03 May 2008 21:21 GMT
> "CitizenJimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
> PM.

There is SO MUCH research pointing to the reality
of the traditional meridians that it is hard to MISS.

Here, for example among the easily found examples
from the 1990's is research involving the use of radioactive
traces which indicate a neurochemical mechanism for the propagation of
the Acupuncture sensation.  Is it CONCLUSIVE? Of course not, just
research but let's NOT pretend it does not exist, eh?

http://acupunctureinmedicine.org.uk/volindex.php?vol=11&issue=1#Exp

Nuclear Medicine Investigation of Transmission of Acupuncture
Information
Darras JC, Albarède P, de Vernejoul P
Page 22
[PDF - 2540KB] (Free access)

Citizen Jimserac
Peter Bowditch - 03 May 2008 22:13 GMT
>There is SO MUCH research pointing to the reality
>of the traditional meridians that it is hard to MISS.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Citizen Jimserac

I like the part where they say "The pathways rather seem to
correspond, in the limbs, with preferential transmission within
connective tissue in association with a vascular-nervous bundle".

Much like injecting anything, really. The same thing probably happened
with the flu shot I had yesterday. And the dye moves at 6cm per
minute. Surely the magic meridians transfer information faster than
that (which is a little over 10 feet per hour for the non-metricated).

And the follow-up research is ... ?

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

D. C. Sessions - 03 May 2008 22:20 GMT
> Much like injecting anything, really. The same thing probably happened
> with the flu shot I had yesterday. And the dye moves at 6cm per
> minute. Surely the magic meridians transfer information faster than
> that (which is a little over 10 feet per hour for the non-metricated).

Sheesh -- 6 cm/minute would make for a LOOOONG wait if the
pin goes in somewhere below the knee.  (Rapid arithmetic)
Like I really want to wait half an hour for results?

| sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
+--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
PeterB - 04 May 2008 01:22 GMT
> The first step in the expulsion of the
> skeptics is stop allowing them to pretend
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
>
> Citizen Jimserac

Well said, CJ, including your comments below on the "pretend logic"
they use for debating.  I have to agree with DrCee though about the
problems with standard "allopathic" approaches, whereas your
suggestion is already taking hold in certain venues that I have
visited.  If we ultimately achieve the kind of creative destruction
sought at FDA, drugs will *not* be approved as they are today, and far
fewer will make it to market at all.  That will be a start...
Citizen Jimserac - 04 May 2008 12:42 GMT
.  If we ultimately achieve the kind of creative destruction
> sought at FDA, drugs will *not* be approved as they are today, and far
> fewer will make it to market at all.  That will be a start...

I look forward to the significant reforms
that will be needed to make that happen and PREVENT the deaths and
injuries from drugs that "somehow" are making it through the approval
process.

Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 04 May 2008 13:28 GMT
: I look forward to the significant reforms
: that will be needed to make that happen and PREVENT the deaths and
: injuries from drugs that "somehow" are making it through the approval
: process.

And what about the adverse effects from dietary supplements that (thanks
to a well-placed bribe, excuse me, campaign contribution) aren't subject
to FDA approval at all?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Rod - 04 May 2008 14:20 GMT
> In article
> <461fbbcb-3f40-41ce-b399-a4bd4c5fa61a@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> to a well-placed bribe, excuse me, campaign contribution) aren't subject
> to FDA approval at all?

I think you are biased with that view. There is much evidence that FDA
approved Drugs are an evil for many a use. The reason is simple: Most of the
drugs do not cure and were never designed to cure.

Cheers, Rod.

> -----
> Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
> Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
> Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
> -----
> "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Citizen Jimserac - 04 May 2008 15:39 GMT
> > In article
> > <461fbbcb-3f40-41ce-b399-a4bd4c5fa...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> > -----
> > "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."

I believe you are wasting your time responding to that
particular respondent.  In my opinion, he is more interested in
innuendo than in discussions.  He does come up with some nice literary
quotes at the end of his posts sometimes.  THOSE have somewhat more
merit than the postings themselves.

Citizen Jimserac
Richard Schultz - 04 May 2008 16:02 GMT
:> > And what about the adverse effects from dietary supplements that (thanks
:> > to a well-placed bribe, excuse me, campaign contribution) aren't subject
:> > to FDA approval at all?

: I believe you are wasting your time responding to that
: particular respondent.  In my opinion, he is more interested in
: innuendo than in discussions.  

I have previously discussed this matter.  It is not innuendo -- Orrin
Hatch received a large (ca. $140,000 IIRC) "campaign contribution" from the
supplement industry.  It's hard to understand why they would be so worried
about his chances of reelection, but it's a lot easier to understand his
later sponsorship of the legislation that removed from the FDA the power
to regulate dietary supplements.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."