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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / April 2008Flu Vaccine Only 44% Effective - a DUD.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/opinion/20sun3.html?ref=opinion Citizen Jimserac >http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/opinion/20sun3.html?ref=opinion > >Citizen Jimserac A dud? (btw, what the hell is it with you and caps anyway? You really think other people are so stupid they won't understand what you mean without using caps all over? Or do you consider yourself such an awful writer that you think you need it? Could you please just STOP doing it?) Are you saying something must be 100% effective to not be a dud? > On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:48:36 -0700 (PDT), Citizen Jimserac > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Are you saying something must be 100% effective to not be a dud? There was more flu this year than last. I have to agree the 44 percent number sounds like a number of dubious merit. So possibly it could have been worse had the shots not been given. But I suspect it harder to know than some realize. Do the shot stop the flu, they can especially in younger people. Are there other things to be done to avoid flu, of course. Lets start by washing market cart handles at Winco and Wally Mart, I bet that would reduce disease spread. I know millions of dollars for automatic cart washing stations so the American Chamber of Commerce will oppose this idea. But since when are they ever right on anything. Even when they are it is only chance and their self interest as they see it. >> On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:48:36 -0700 (PDT), Citizen Jimserac >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > So possibly it could have been worse had the shots not been > given. But I suspect it harder to know than some realize. The group that made the call on what to include in this year's shots said early in the season that they'd blown it this time (not exactly how they put it, but they weren't happy.) They're stuck trying to decide in advance what strains will be the "hot" ones in the upcoming season, thanks to the lead time in preparing the stuff. As with any attempt to predict the future, there aren't any guarantees. > Do the shot stop the flu, they can especially in younger people. > Are there other things to be done to avoid flu, of course. > Lets start by washing market cart handles at Winco and > Wally Mart, I bet that would reduce disease spread. $EMPLOYER had a suggestion-box item some years ago to put hand-sanitizer dispensers around the plant and some signs on reducing transmission of disease. $CEO reports that there's a distinct drop in absenteeism during flu season since then and figures that the silly things are one of the best bang-for-the-buck investments the company ever made. > I know > millions of dollars for automatic cart washing stations so > the American Chamber of Commerce will oppose this idea. > But since when are they ever right on anything. Even when > they are it is only chance and their self interest as they > see it. Quite a few stores around here have put up the wipe dispensers. Whether they see it as good customer relations or as a basic matter of "we make more money from healthier people" isn't clear, but it looks like good business. Whether there's much incremental advantage to automatic cart washing is another matter. | sh.t happens. Sometimes it happens to you. | +--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+ > In message <4be8823f-915d-4bbe-b9cd-8ae0e78c4...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, trigonometry1...@gmail.com | wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > the best bang-for-the-buck investments the company ever > made. I'm waiting for Dr Moran, Richard Schultz and Martin to insist that without double blinding, it MUST be the placebo effect. After all, without sham sanitizer as a placebo and without proper exit interviews after handwashing to confirm the blinding, we can safely assume the reduction in absentism is due to the perception that the employer cares about the outcome. After all, we don't know for sure that any of the people who didn't miss work would have been sick otherwise nor do we know that those who did miss work had a cold or flu. Unless double blinding was imposed the accountants, they could be making false deductions... > > I know > > millions of dollars for automatic cart washing stations so [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > In message > <4be8823f-915d-4bbe-b9cd-8ae0e78c4...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > the best bang-for-the-buck investments the company ever > made. I'm waiting for Dr Moran, Richard Schultz and Martin to insist that without double blinding, it MUST be the placebo effect. After all, without sham sanitizer as a placebo and without proper exit interviews after handwashing to confirm the blinding, we can safely assume the reduction in absentism is due to the perception that the employer cares about the outcome. After all, we don't know for sure that any of the people who didn't miss work would have been sick otherwise nor do we know that those who did miss work had a cold or flu. Unless double blinding was imposed the accountants, they could be making false deductions... PM --- Double blinding evolved so we doctors knew whether our treatments were really helping, and what works best, not as a annoyance for alternative practitioners. It has been proved many times over to be a necessary element of the investigation of some types of medical question. It is also mainly only required in the investigation of subjective outcomes, being not so important in more objective measures of illness such as time off work. BUt I am sure you know this. Tell, me, why should alternative methods be subjected to less rigorous evaluation,. especially once insurance companies are expected to pay for them and some even want acupuncture points and meridia to be taught to doctors in their anatomy course in medical schools? Acupuncture is even held out by some to be opening up new areas of science yet it is sustained only by pitifully indirect and artifact-ridden evidence from the kinds of medical study that doctors themselves refuse to wholly trust. It;s time for a reality check. PM. > > In message > > <4be8823f-915d-4bbe-b9cd-8ae0e78c4...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > them and some even want acupuncture points and meridia to be taught to > doctors in their anatomy course in medical schools? My point is that you, Martin, & Richard would greatly object to any such generalizations from a similar study involving, say, an herbal handwash. They, and to a lesser extent, you, would never consider any outcome based results. I clearly understand why double blinding was used and that Ben Franklin is credited with being the first to use it. I am in favor of it. Heck, I want something even better! My point is that it isn't practical nor possible in all circumstances. Acupuncture is especially challenging with regard to blinding. > Acupuncture is even > held out by some to be opening up new areas of science yet it is sustained > only by pitifully indirect and artifact-ridden evidence from the kinds of > medical study that doctors themselves refuse to wholly trust. That is simply not true. You recently said that you were unaware of any clinicial trials wherein acupuncture reduced work absences. Several such trials have been performed in the UK. That is just one of the many reasons it is so popular there, here, and everywhere. The results are real, even if *you* (and esp Martin & Rich) don't believe in them. As time has progressed, acupuncture's acceptance has grown. That is just a logical consequence of it being shown effective in larger and better controlled trials. Otherwise, acupuncture would be in the same category with homeopathy, which is being pushed out of the UK health system. > It's time for a reality check. Agreed, but this one is made out to you; I got mine 13 years ago. > PM.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - > "The One True Zhen Jue" <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote in > messagenews:43ba91b2-1920-4d5a-8aec-794e8b6e54be@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > them and some even want acupuncture points and meridia to be taught to > doctors in their anatomy course in medical schools? My point is that you, Martin, & Richard would greatly object to any such generalizations from a similar study involving, say, an herbal handwash. They, and to a lesser extent, you, would never consider any outcome based results. I clearly understand why double blinding was used and that Ben Franklin is credited with being the first to use it. I am in favor of it. Heck, I want something even better! My point is that it isn't practical nor possible in all circumstances. Acupuncture is especially challenging with regard to blinding. > Acupuncture is even > held out by some to be opening up new areas of science yet it is sustained > only by pitifully indirect and artifact-ridden evidence from the kinds of > medical study that doctors themselves refuse to wholly trust. That is simply not true. You recently said that you were unaware of any clinicial trials wherein acupuncture reduced work absences. Several such trials have been performed in the UK. That is just one of the many reasons it is so popular there, here, and everywhere. The results are real, even if *you* (and esp Martin & Rich) don't believe in them. PM Could I have references to these several studies? I don't believe that an adeqautely controlled comparison of sham versus true acupuncture, or using a comparably credible placebo treatment will show any consistent earlier return to work. This is what the evidence is asymmptotically approaching. PM As time has progressed, acupuncture's acceptance has grown. That is just a logical consequence of it being shown effective in larger and better controlled trials. Otherwise, acupuncture would be in the same category with homeopathy, which is being pushed out of the UK health system. > It's time for a reality check. Agreed, but this one is made out to you; I got mine 13 years ago. > PM.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - > PM Could I have references to these several studies? I don't believe > that an adeqautely controlled comparison of sham versus true acupuncture, or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > PM Astonishing! A candid admission of preconceptions to which he then "fits" test results. I supplied links referring to research showing the physical existence of acupuncture points and meridians - verified by physics. What of that? All sham too?? Citizen Jimserac >> PM Could I have references to these several studies? I don't believe >> that an adeqautely controlled comparison of sham versus true acupuncture, or [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >of acupuncture points and meridians - verified by physics. >What of that? All sham too?? Have you read the history of N-rays yet? >Citizen Jimserac >> PM Could I have references to these several studies? I don't believe >> that an adeqautely controlled comparison of sham versus true acupuncture, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Citizen Jimserac You have to remember I am surgeon. I have rummaged around the innards of the human body and studied its physiology far more intensely than you or most other people on this newsgroup. I have observed that everything else that has a role in maintaining the function of the body has anatomical or microscopic correlates, our energy coming from mitochondria, our oxygen from the lungs, our food from the gut, our knowing from the brain.. It does not make sense that a human body that is so efficiently and logically constructed in other respects should have evolved invisible, random points in muscle or fat or on the skin that have no discernible function other than to do something needles are stuck into them. The only possible explanation for such a proposition is that it stems from primitive speculations, at a time when next to nothing was known about the interior and functions of the human body. It is an inherently ridiculous proposition, and this why only the most solid experimental evidence will overcome the skepticism that even a lot of acupuncturists share about the reality of this aspect of acupuncture. Remember that we can explain all the clinical effects of acupuncture in other ways. PM > Remember that we can explain all the clinical effects of acupuncture in > other ways. > > PM- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - You should keep in mind that we can explain all your clinical evidence of disease in other ways, ways that mystifies you, but yet leads the ill back to health via healing and not cures. DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. > "CitizenJimserac" <Jimse...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > PM Your experience is obvious from your posts and though I may often disagree, this in no way diminishes the admiration and even awe I have of your skills which saved lives and restored health to many. >With regards to your comment: >not make sense that a human body [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >have no discernible function other than >to do something needles are stuck into them. Understood. I do not believe the Acupuncture points are random - they are said to follow meridian lines which you can see clearly illustrated in Deadman's Acuuncture textbook. I can understand, however, that perception in the light of the numerous extra points that have been discovered since the ancients. I DO find that a bit curious but hardly am willing to deny all of Acupuncture because of it. One area I need to do some research on is the correlation between the well known orthopedic "trigger" points and acupuncture points - in many cases they are the same, in others not. However, thermography, MRI's and sensitive electrical measurements do not lie and research confirms measureable activity at the points and the existence of the meridians, as the links I posted from but a single research paper show. There are MANY others. Thanks Citizen Jimserac : I'm waiting for Dr Moran, Richard Schultz and Martin to insist that : without double blinding, it MUST be the placebo effect. I'm waiting for you to show some evidence of an ability to read for comprehension. I'm waiting for you to respond to the list of articles about acupuncture that I posted. I'm waiting for you to post the article in which I said that the most recent NCCAM web page about acupuncture "repudiated" the 1997 Consensus Statement. I'm waiting for you to answer my yes or no questions about whether you had read the articles that you cited, or only the press releases. I'm waiting for you to explain the apparent discrepancy between your descriptions of how acupuncture is properly applied and the way it was applied in the 2004 study you have cited as a positive result. In other words, I've been waiting a lot longer than you have. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." <trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4be8823f-915d-4bbe-b9cd-8ae0e78c4929@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:48:36 -0700 (PDT), Citizen Jimserac > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Are you saying something must be 100% effective to not be a dud? There was more flu this year than last. I have to agree the 44 percent number sounds like a number of dubious merit. So possibly it could have been worse had the shots not been given. But I suspect it harder to know than some realize. Do the shot stop the flu, they can especially in younger people. Are there other things to be done to avoid flu, of course. Lets start by washing market cart handles at Winco and Wally Mart, I bet that would reduce disease spread. I know millions of dollars for automatic cart washing stations so the American Chamber of Commerce will oppose this idea. But since when are they ever right on anything. Even when they are it is only chance and their self interest as they see it. http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/10/27/flu-shots.html http://www.medicalconsumers.org/pages/FluVaccinesDoNotWorkforKidsortheElderly.html http://www.medicalconsumers.org/pages/FluVaccineisRarelyEffective.html http://www.doctorbob.com/vd--flu-shot-season.html Martin, PLEASE PLEASE get your flu shot. and then shut up about it. Jeeze, how is so hard to understand that a lot of people do NOT want your nasty little shot? >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/opinion/20sun3.html?ref=opinion >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Are you saying something must be 100% effective to not be a dud? >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/opinion/20sun3.html?ref=opinion >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Are you saying something must be 100% effective to not be a dud? When one cannot refute always personally insult. > On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:48:36 -0700 (PDT), CitizenJimserac > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Are you saying something must be 100% effective to not be a dud? The caps are to emphasize something and should NOT be considered a personal insult or effrontery! (Ooops, did I just do it again...? really an uncontrolable sort of bad habit, thanks for the chastisment!) I MUST stop using those caps, dammit! Citizen JIMSERAC > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/opinion/20sun3.html?ref=opinion > > Citizen Jimserac I find the myth of Santa Claus to be 100% effective. Every year, snow or no snow, I find presents for me under a dying Christmas tree. Beats the flu vaccine myth all the heck. DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. >> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/opinion/20sun3.html?ref=opinion >> >> Citizen Jimserac > >I find the myth of Santa Claus to be 100% effective. Every year, snow >or no snow, I find presents for me under a dying Christmas tree. That means the myth is zero percent effective. If it really were, you'd find a lump of coal. >Beats the flu vaccine myth all the heck. > >DrCee >You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. : I find the myth of Santa Claus to be 100% effective. Every year, snow : or no snow, I find presents for me under a dying Christmas tree. How do you know that the presents were left by Santa Claus and not by the professor from the University on Mars who supervised your Ph. D. research? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_ |
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