Medical Forum / General / Alternative / April 2008
Vitamin supplements 'do us no good and may be harmful'
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valhealey - 16 Apr 2008 07:08 GMT http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin -supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html
Brief snip:
Vitamin supplements 'do us no good and may be harmful'
By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor Wednesday, 16 April 2008
We swallow them by the bucketload at great expense but there is no evidence vitamin supplements do us any good, and they may even be doing us harm, scientists have concluded. In a blow to the multimillion pound dietary supplement industry, a review of 67 randomised trials of vitamin pills has found that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten it. <snip>
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 16 Apr 2008 11:55 GMT > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-n... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten it. > <snip> These clowns wouldn't know evidence if it bit they in the arse. A review based of poorly run trials results in poor conclusions.
The best thing one can do is to boycott items or services that purchase adverts in the so-called "Independent."
Carole - 16 Apr 2008 12:47 GMT <trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote in message news:dd72323a-9dca-480f-81b4-8ab3d88c576c@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com... On Apr 15, 11:08 pm, valhealey <jvhea...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-n... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten it. > <snip> These clowns wouldn't know evidence if it bit they in the arse. A review based of poorly run trials results in poor conclusions.
The best thing one can do is to boycott items or services that purchase adverts in the so-called "Independent."
Carole > They're just a pack of clowns who wouldn't know what day it was. Its just amazing how these "experts" know so little about so much.
Carole www.cellsalts.net
run_a_monk - 16 Apr 2008 14:18 GMT Here is the actual study referred to in the article:
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab007176.html
Carole - 16 Apr 2008 14:22 GMT > Here is the actual study referred to in the article: > > http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab007176.html What, you're saying the study is legitimate, therefore vitamins are useless? Get a grip. Merck did studies for their Vioxx. These studies are engineered to produce the outcome they want.
Carole www.cellsalts.net
Marshall Price - 27 Apr 2008 08:56 GMT > Here is the actual study referred to in the article: > > http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab007176.html They say,
"We found no evidence to support antioxidant supplements for primary or secondary prevention. Vitamin A, beta-carotene, and vitamin E may increase mortality."
But they didn't say they'd *found evidence* of the latter (that those vitamins actually do increase mortality), just that they "may," without explaining why they say so.
So is this newsworthy? Three authors did a meta-analysis and didn't find evidence of anything, but they do advise the world that more research is needed, and for the full article, they want money.
 Signature Marshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c
D. C. Sessions - 27 Apr 2008 14:04 GMT > So is this newsworthy? Three authors did a meta-analysis and didn't > find evidence of anything, but they do advise the world that more > research is needed, and for the full article, they want money. One of the ugly aspects of academic publishing is that in order to get their work published, the authors have to sign over copyright. They don't get a dime from reprints, and in fact can't even reprint their own work for classes or on their websites.
| sh.t happens. Sometimes it happens to you. | +--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
Martin - 16 Apr 2008 18:27 GMT ><trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote in message >news:dd72323a-9dca-480f-81b4-8ab3d88c576c@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >These clowns wouldn't know evidence if it bit they in the arse. >A review based of poorly run trials results in poor conclusions. Yes, the trials run by the supplement industry are a hoot and can not be trusted.
>The best thing one can do is to boycott items or services >that purchase adverts in the so-called "Independent." Yes, Big Supplement with their huge advertising budget can not be trusted to tell the truth about supplements, you're right about that.
>Carole > They're just a pack of clowns who wouldn't know what day it was. >Its just amazing how these "experts" know so little about so much. > >Carole >www.cellsalts.net Mark Thorson - 16 Apr 2008 18:08 GMT > > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-n... > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > These clowns wouldn't know evidence if it bit they in the arse. > A review based of poorly run trials results in poor conclusions. That's why they reviewed 67 trials -- to average out any particular studies with poor methodology.
A study isn't bad just because it reaches a conclusion you don't like. Science often reveals information that is surprising or disturbing.
If you disagree about that, please explain what error was consistently being made in these 67 studies. Reaching a conclusion you disagree with is not an error.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 17 Apr 2008 15:46 GMT > "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Reaching a conclusion you disagree with is not > an error. This is a rehashed/republished meta-analysis that hand picks 67 out of some 7 or 8 hundred studies to reach to the conclusion they want. It is a meaningless editoral, the morons in the press seem think of as science.
Nor do we see any discussion of confidence intervals and significant figures.
lettich52 - 16 Apr 2008 14:42 GMT Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin -supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > pills has found that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten > it. <snip> RuF - 16 Apr 2008 17:10 GMT > Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> pills has found that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten >> it. <snip> Great response everyone :-)
I bet those "researchers" will be visiting the soup kitchens soon.
RuF
Mark Thorson - 16 Apr 2008 18:13 GMT > Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy. Likely a placebo effect. Feelings of "energy" are not associated with any vitamin, unlike something like candy bars which directly contribute toward blood sugar.
Marshall Price - 27 Apr 2008 09:26 GMT >> Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy. > > Likely a placebo effect. Feelings of "energy" > are not associated with any vitamin, unlike > something like candy bars which directly > contribute toward blood sugar. That depends on how much you need them -- and at least two vitamins (thiamine and cyanocobalamin) are generally considered "tonics," which means they do make you feel like you have more energy.
 Signature Marshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c
Martin - 16 Apr 2008 18:28 GMT >Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy. That's amazing, because vitamin supplements are not a source of energy.
>> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin -supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> pills has found that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten >> it. <snip> Marshall Price - 27 Apr 2008 09:21 GMT > Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> pills has found that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten >> it. <snip> But the headline of the "Independent" story (and subject line of this thread), "Vitamin supplements...," suggests that the article's about vitamin supplements in general, when it's actually about antioxidants, four of which happen to be vitamins (three, when you consider that "beta carotene" is simply a precursor of vitamin A), and it simply reports finding no evidence, while suggesting that there may be evidence in the future, if enough research is done, at least for vitamin C and selenium (a mineral), while declining to say what else may be revealed by future research.
They admit there were studies which they intentionally left out because of what they judged to be "bias."
I've benefited a lot from vitamin and mineral supplements, but this article isn't the least bit informative. It doesn't address the other twenty or thirty vitamins and minerals at all.
 Signature Marshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c
Pramesh Rutaji - 16 Apr 2008 22:23 GMT > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin -supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > pills has found that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten > it. <snip> They excluded 405 studies because there was no mortality. In the USA, the CDC has almost no reports of supplement caused mortality.
 Signature Pramesh Rutaji
p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply
Mark Thorson - 16 Apr 2008 23:10 GMT > They excluded 405 studies because there was no mortality. In the USA, > the CDC has almost no reports of supplement caused mortality. Almost no reports? Not at all true.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00019593.htm
Iron is the most common cause of pediatric poisoning deaths reported to poison control centers in the United States. During 1991, 5144 ingestions of iron supplements were reported to poison control centers in the United States; 11 were fatal. Children aged less than 6 years accounted for 3578 (69.6%) ingestions of iron and nine of the deaths. In addition, 18,457 ingestions of iron in the form of multivitamin or combination preparations were reported; 16,021 (87%) occurred among children aged less than 6 years. During 1991, consumption of multivitamin preparations in the form of prenatal vitamins with iron caused two additional deaths among children aged 17 and 18 months.
Kelley Eidem - 17 Apr 2008 06:18 GMT > > They excluded 405 studies because there was no mortality. In the USA, > > the CDC has almost no reports of supplement caused mortality. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > form of prenatal vitamins with iron caused two additional > deaths among children aged 17 and 18 months. Eleven fatalities in a year, all from overdoses. In a nation of 270 million, that's almost no reports of mortality.
About 30 to 35 people die each and every day from NSAIDS. Not from overdoses, but from taking the stuff as directed and bleeding out. Victims go to the hospital emergency room looking for help, but often the patient ends up bleeding out in the emergency room, as not much can be done to stop the bleeding.
So if you get a pant load of blood that won't stop, say your prayers.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 17 Apr 2008 15:52 GMT You have a point Mark. But the problem here is the same as the stupid parents or family members that leave Tylenol around in the kids reach and swallow. It isn't a reason to ban or make Tylenol or even iron supplements a prescription item. And by the way isn't that why we have the hard to open caps on some products.
> > They excluded 405 studies because there was no mortality. In the USA, > > the CDC has almost no reports of supplement caused mortality. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > form of prenatal vitamins with iron caused two additional > deaths among children aged 17 and 18 months. Marshall Price - 27 Apr 2008 09:30 GMT > You have a point Mark. But the problem here is the > same as the stupid parents or family members that [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> form of prenatal vitamins with iron caused two additional >> deaths among children aged 17 and 18 months. What about parents who make taking vitamins fun, fun, fun, and then leave them where the kids can get at them?
 Signature Marshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c
Tim - 16 Apr 2008 23:06 GMT >http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin -supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten it. ><snip> Unfortunately people have been brainwashed into believing good nutrition is just about eating vitamins. Those that benefit from this belief are the makers of junk food etc who fortify their junk with vitamins to pass them off as healthy. If eating healthy means eating real foods that occur in nature than makers of junk food will never be able to make an argument on why their food is healthy.
Vitamin deficiencies are rare unless you are eating a unhealthy unbalanced diet. Why anyone would put synthetic man made vitamins whose origins and the quantity of said vitamins in each pill are suspect is beyond me. People think if a little is good a lot must be better but this is not the case. 8 glasses of water a day maybe healthy but 80 is certainly not. Your body is simply not going to utilize more than what is required and too much often interferes with other processes. Vitamins are not money where more yields higher returns, far from it.
Marshall Price - 27 Apr 2008 09:32 GMT >> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin -supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > other processes. Vitamins are not money where more yields higher > returns, far from it. You're over-generalizing. Some vitamins have proven therapeutic effects in some situations.
 Signature Marshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 17 Apr 2008 16:02 GMT Here read this.
http://www.nutraingredients.com/news/printNewsBis.asp?id=84681
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 18 Apr 2008 00:44 GMT These are not the supplements I take!
What you call vitamin E is in fact in most instances in these studies either racemic alpha tocopherol or a best d-alpha tocopherol only or mostly. Do realize you realize why these poor supplemental choices?
I take a mixture of of high gamma mixed tocopherols and a capsule of alpha tocopherol succinate. Plus I have a high level of sesamin in my diet so my gamma levels are higher than yours. More over I take vitamin K so my vitamin K level aren't suppressed like the subject in these poorly designed studies.
The so-called beta-carotene they are using is all trans beta carotene. Whereas the natural form is a mixture of trans and cis forms.
I rarely take this form. Only when I need a multiple which is relatively rare. The evidence is that is it is a risk in smokers.
And the vitamin A the studies is given in a wildly wrong ratio to vitamin D. There is antagonistic relationship between these two vitamins. Further prefomed vitamin A is not an antioxidant.
They do plenty of good when correctly used in higher and better balance doses and it better forms. This hand wringing is amazing bit of willful ignorance on the part of who ever made the comment.
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