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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / April 2008

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Vitamin supplements 'do us no good and may be harmful'

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valhealey - 16 Apr 2008 07:08 GMT
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin
-supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html


Brief snip:

Vitamin supplements 'do us no good and may be harmful'

By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor
Wednesday, 16 April 2008

We swallow them by the bucketload at great expense but there
is no evidence vitamin supplements do us any good, and they
may even be doing us harm, scientists have concluded. In a
blow to the multimillion pound dietary supplement industry,
a review of 67 randomised trials of vitamin pills has found
that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten it.
<snip>
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 16 Apr 2008 11:55 GMT
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-n...
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten it.
> <snip>

These clowns wouldn't know evidence if it bit they in the arse.
A review based of poorly run trials results in poor conclusions.

The best thing one can do is to boycott items or services
that purchase adverts in the so-called "Independent."
Carole - 16 Apr 2008 12:47 GMT
<trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dd72323a-9dca-480f-81b4-8ab3d88c576c@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 11:08 pm, valhealey <jvhea...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-n...
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten it.
> <snip>

These clowns wouldn't know evidence if it bit they in the arse.
A review based of poorly run trials results in poor conclusions.

The best thing one can do is to boycott items or services
that purchase adverts in the so-called "Independent."

Carole > They're just a pack of clowns who wouldn't know what day it was.
Its just amazing how these "experts" know so little about so much.

Carole
www.cellsalts.net
run_a_monk - 16 Apr 2008 14:18 GMT
Here is the actual study referred to in the article:

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab007176.html
Carole - 16 Apr 2008 14:22 GMT
> Here is the actual study referred to in the article:
>
> http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab007176.html

What, you're saying the study is legitimate, therefore vitamins are useless?
Get a grip.
Merck did studies for their Vioxx.
These studies are engineered to produce the outcome they want.

Carole
www.cellsalts.net
Marshall Price - 27 Apr 2008 08:56 GMT
> Here is the actual study referred to in the article:
>
> http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab007176.html

  They say,

  "We found no evidence to support antioxidant supplements for primary
or secondary prevention. Vitamin A, beta-carotene, and vitamin E may
increase mortality."

  But they didn't say they'd *found evidence* of the latter (that those
vitamins actually do increase mortality), just that they "may," without
explaining why they say so.

  So is this newsworthy?  Three authors did a meta-analysis and didn't
find evidence of anything, but they do advise the world that more
research is needed, and for the full article, they want money.

Signature

Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

D. C. Sessions - 27 Apr 2008 14:04 GMT
>    So is this newsworthy?  Three authors did a meta-analysis and didn't
> find evidence of anything, but they do advise the world that more
> research is needed, and for the full article, they want money.

One of the ugly aspects of academic publishing is that in
order to get their work published, the authors have to
sign over copyright.  They don't get a dime from reprints,
and in fact can't even reprint their own work for classes
or on their websites.

| sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
+--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
Martin - 16 Apr 2008 18:27 GMT
><trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:dd72323a-9dca-480f-81b4-8ab3d88c576c@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>These clowns wouldn't know evidence if it bit they in the arse.
>A review based of poorly run trials results in poor conclusions.

Yes, the trials run by the supplement industry are a hoot and can not
be trusted.

>The best thing one can do is to boycott items or services
>that purchase adverts in the so-called "Independent."

Yes, Big Supplement with their huge advertising budget can not be
trusted to tell the truth about supplements, you're right about that.

>Carole > They're just a pack of clowns who wouldn't know what day it was.
>Its just amazing how these "experts" know so little about so much.
>
>Carole
>www.cellsalts.net
Mark Thorson - 16 Apr 2008 18:08 GMT
> > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-n...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> These clowns wouldn't know evidence if it bit they in the arse.
> A review based of poorly run trials results in poor conclusions.

That's why they reviewed 67 trials -- to average out
any particular studies with poor methodology.

A study isn't bad just because it reaches a conclusion
you don't like.  Science often reveals information
that is surprising or disturbing.

If you disagree about that, please explain what error
was consistently being made in these 67 studies.
Reaching a conclusion you disagree with is not
an error.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 17 Apr 2008 15:46 GMT
> "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |" wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Reaching a conclusion you disagree with is not
> an error.

This is a rehashed/republished meta-analysis that hand picks 67
out of some 7 or 8 hundred studies to reach to the
conclusion they want. It is a meaningless editoral,
the morons in the press seem think of as science.

Nor do we see any discussion of confidence intervals
and significant figures.
lettich52 - 16 Apr 2008 14:42 GMT
Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy.

> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin
-supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html

>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> pills has found that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten
> it. <snip>
RuF - 16 Apr 2008 17:10 GMT
> Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> pills has found that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten
>> it. <snip>

Great response everyone :-)

I bet those "researchers" will be visiting the soup kitchens
soon.

RuF
Mark Thorson - 16 Apr 2008 18:13 GMT
> Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy.

Likely a placebo effect.  Feelings of "energy"
are not associated with any vitamin, unlike
something like candy bars which directly
contribute toward blood sugar.
Marshall Price - 27 Apr 2008 09:26 GMT
>> Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy.
>
> Likely a placebo effect.  Feelings of "energy"
> are not associated with any vitamin, unlike
> something like candy bars which directly
> contribute toward blood sugar.

  That depends on how much you need them -- and at least two vitamins
(thiamine and cyanocobalamin) are generally considered "tonics," which
means they do make you feel like you have more energy.

Signature

Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Martin - 16 Apr 2008 18:28 GMT
>Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy.

That's amazing, because vitamin supplements are not a source of
energy.

>> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin
-supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html

>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> pills has found that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten
>> it. <snip>
Marshall Price - 27 Apr 2008 09:21 GMT
> Maybe they say they do not work, but when I take them, I have more energy.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> pills has found that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten
>> it. <snip>

  But the headline of the "Independent" story (and subject line of this
thread), "Vitamin supplements...," suggests that the article's about
vitamin supplements in general, when it's actually about antioxidants,
four of which happen to be vitamins (three, when you consider that "beta
carotene" is simply a precursor of vitamin A), and it simply reports
finding no evidence, while suggesting that there may be evidence in the
future, if enough research is done, at least for vitamin C and selenium
(a mineral), while declining to say what else may be revealed by future
research.

  They admit there were studies which they intentionally left out
because of what they judged to be "bias."

  I've benefited a lot from vitamin and mineral supplements, but this
article isn't the least bit informative.  It doesn't address the other
twenty or thirty vitamins and minerals at all.

Signature

Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Pramesh Rutaji - 16 Apr 2008 22:23 GMT
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin
-supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html
 
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> pills has found that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten
> it. <snip>

They excluded 405 studies because there was no mortality.  In the USA,
the CDC has almost no reports of supplement caused mortality.

Signature

Pramesh Rutaji

p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply

Mark Thorson - 16 Apr 2008 23:10 GMT
> They excluded 405 studies because there was no mortality.  In the USA,
> the CDC has almost no reports of supplement caused mortality.

Almost no reports?  Not at all true.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00019593.htm

Iron is the most common cause of pediatric poisoning deaths
reported to poison control centers in the United States.
During 1991, 5144 ingestions of iron supplements were
reported to poison control centers in the United States;
11 were fatal. Children aged less than 6 years accounted
for 3578 (69.6%) ingestions of iron and nine of the deaths.
In addition, 18,457 ingestions of iron in the form of
multivitamin or combination preparations were reported;
16,021 (87%) occurred among children aged less than 6 years.
During 1991, consumption of multivitamin preparations in the
form of prenatal vitamins with iron caused two additional
deaths among children aged 17 and 18 months.
Kelley Eidem - 17 Apr 2008 06:18 GMT
> > They excluded 405 studies because there was no mortality.  In the USA,
> > the CDC has almost no reports of supplement caused mortality.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> form of prenatal vitamins with iron caused two additional
> deaths among children aged 17 and 18 months.

Eleven fatalities in a year, all from overdoses. In a nation of 270
million, that's almost no reports of mortality.

About 30 to 35 people die each and every day from NSAIDS. Not from
overdoses, but from taking the stuff as directed and bleeding out.
Victims go to the hospital emergency room looking for help, but often
the patient ends up bleeding out in the emergency room, as not much
can be done to stop the bleeding.

So if you get a pant load of blood that won't stop, say your prayers.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 17 Apr 2008 15:52 GMT
You have a point Mark. But the problem here is the
same as the stupid parents or family members that
leave Tylenol around in the kids reach and swallow. It isn't a
reason to ban or make Tylenol or even iron supplements
a  prescription item. And by the way isn't
that why we have the hard to open caps on some
products.

> > They excluded 405 studies because there was no mortality.  In the USA,
> > the CDC has almost no reports of supplement caused mortality.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> form of prenatal vitamins with iron caused two additional
> deaths among children aged 17 and 18 months.
Marshall Price - 27 Apr 2008 09:30 GMT
> You have a point Mark. But the problem here is the
> same as the stupid parents or family members that
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> form of prenatal vitamins with iron caused two additional
>> deaths among children aged 17 and 18 months.

  What about parents who make taking vitamins fun, fun, fun, and then
leave them where the kids can get at them?

Signature

Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Tim - 16 Apr 2008 23:06 GMT
>http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin
-supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html

>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>that far from prolonging life, they may actually shorten it.
><snip>

Unfortunately people have been brainwashed into believing good
nutrition is just about eating vitamins.  Those that benefit from this
belief are the makers of junk food etc who fortify their junk with
vitamins to pass them off as healthy.  If eating healthy means eating
real foods that occur in nature than makers of junk food will never be
able to make an argument on why their food is healthy.

Vitamin deficiencies are rare unless you are eating a unhealthy
unbalanced diet.  Why anyone would put synthetic man made vitamins
whose origins and the quantity of said vitamins in each pill are
suspect is beyond me.  People think if a little is good a lot must be
better but this is not the case.  8 glasses of water a day maybe
healthy but 80 is certainly not.  Your body is simply not going to
utilize more than what is required and too much often interferes with
other processes.  Vitamins are not money where more yields higher
returns, far from it.
Marshall Price - 27 Apr 2008 09:32 GMT
>> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin
-supplements-do-us-no-good-and-may-be-harmful-809607.html

>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> other processes.  Vitamins are not money where more yields higher
> returns, far from it.

  You're over-generalizing.  Some vitamins have proven therapeutic
effects in some situations.

Signature

Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 17 Apr 2008 16:02 GMT
Here read this.

http://www.nutraingredients.com/news/printNewsBis.asp?id=84681
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 18 Apr 2008 00:44 GMT
These are not the supplements I take!

What you call vitamin E is in fact in most
instances in these studies either racemic alpha tocopherol
or a best d-alpha tocopherol only or mostly.
Do realize you realize why these poor supplemental
choices?

I take a mixture of of high gamma mixed tocopherols
and a capsule of alpha tocopherol succinate.
Plus I have a high level of sesamin in my diet so
my gamma levels are higher than yours.
More over I take vitamin K so my vitamin K level aren't
suppressed like the subject in these poorly designed
studies.

The so-called beta-carotene they are using is
all trans beta carotene. Whereas the natural form
is a mixture of trans and cis forms.

I rarely take this form. Only when I need a multiple which
is relatively rare. The evidence is that is it is a risk
in smokers.

And the vitamin A the studies is given in a wildly
wrong ratio to vitamin D. There is antagonistic
relationship between these two vitamins.
Further prefomed vitamin A is not an antioxidant.

They do plenty of good when correctly used in higher and
better balance doses and it better forms. This hand
wringing is amazing bit of willful ignorance on the part of
who ever made the comment.
 
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