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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / April 2008Congratulations to Richard and Andrew
I would like to congratulate Richard Schultz and Andrew Kingoff for conducting the best flame war seen on MHA for many a day. Both have demonstrated outstanding intransigence and admirable politeness. Of course there have been accusations of lying, but that is just a form of banter around here and is treated in the same dismissive way as are cries of "wolf" from boys. The best part is that this is not an Us v Them battle. It is Us v Us-except-for-acupuncture. One request, though - could you start a thread just for the war so that the rest of us can killfile it and still continue to read the excellent posts that both of you make elsewhere.  SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com > I would like to congratulate Richard Schultz and Andrew Kingoff for > conducting the best flame war seen on MHA for many a day. Both have [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that the rest of us can killfile it and still continue to read the > excellent posts that both of you make elsewhere. What? Are you suggesting that there isn't universal interest in this ongoing pissing contest? Well, in light of Richard's most recent admission that he has no interest in learning about acupuncture (nor chiropractic, as he also mentioned), its probably best to put him back into time-out until after Pesach. I'm sure he & I would enjoy the holiday even more without having to spend it together. http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/816510040a082c8a <snip for brevity> : But, if you prefer learning about chiropractic, go for it! I don't prefer learning about either. <snip for brevity> > Well, in light of Richard's most recent admission that he has no > interest in learning about acupuncture (nor chiropractic, as he also > mentioned), its probably best to put him back into time-out until > after Pesach. I'm sure he & I would enjoy the holiday even more > without having to spend it together. Are you suggesting that sometime before the end of Tishrei you two might come to (however brief) terms? | sh.t happens. Sometimes it happens to you. | +--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+ > In message <10ebb97d-0e8c-483b-975f-23cc28c64...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Are you suggesting that sometime before the end of > Tishrei you two might come to (however brief) terms? It could happen. > -- > | sh.t happens. Sometimes it happens to you. | > +--- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ---+ :> Well, in light of Richard's most recent admission that he has no :> interest in learning about acupuncture (nor chiropractic, as he also :> mentioned), its probably best to put him back into time-out until :> after Pesach. ?I'm sure he & I would enjoy the holiday even more :> without having to spend it together. : Are you suggesting that sometime before the end of : Tishrei you two might come to (however brief) terms? I think that he's suggesting that he really doesn't understand how amusing I find his posts. I have stated many times that I am ready and willing to discuss the question of the efficacy of acupuncture at any time. You must have noticed, however, that every time that I try to do so, he either refuses to respond altogether or spends much more effort than it is worth calling me a liar. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" : Well, in light of Richard's most recent admission that he has no : interest in learning about acupuncture (nor chiropractic, as he also [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : : <snip for brevity> The reason that you snipped it is because of a lack of intellectual honesty. If you had kept the comment in its original context, you would have been forced to realize that I was speaking of a third thing that I prefer to learning about either acupuncture or to learning about chiropractic. But since you seem to enjoy looking up posts of mine so much, why don't you find the one in which I say that the most recent NCCAM acupuncture page "repudiated" the 1997 consensus statement? I'm sure that there are lots of people who would like to see it. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?" : its [sic] probably best to put him back into time-out until : after Pesach. I'm sure he & I would enjoy the holiday even more : without having to spend it together. For the record, I take "kol dichfin yeitei v'yeichol / kol ditzrich yeitei v'yifsach" seriously. Even Mr. Kingoff, should he find himself in Petach Tikva, would be welcome at my seder. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" > For the record, I take "kol dichfin yeitei v'yeichol / kol ditzrich > yeitei v'yifsach" seriously. Even Mr. Kingoff, should he find himself > in Petach Tikva, would be welcome at my seder. Is the only reason you stopped, is because it is passover? :> For the record, I take "kol dichfin yeitei v'yeichol / kol ditzrich :> yeitei v'yifsach" seriously. ?Even Mr. Kingoff, should he find himself :> in Petach Tikva, would be welcome at my seder. : Is the only reason you stopped, is because it is passover? Stopped what? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." > > For the record, I take "kol dichfin yeitei v'yeichol / kol ditzrich > > yeitei v'yifsach" seriously. Even Mr. Kingoff, should he find himself > > in Petach Tikva, would be welcome at my seder. > > Is the only reason you stopped, is because it is passover? It isn't Passover, yet. > I would like to congratulate Richard Schultz and Andrew Kingoff for > conducting the best flame war seen on MHA for many a day. Both have > demonstrated outstanding intransigence and admirable politeness. Of > course there have been accusations of lying, but that is just a form > of banter around here and is treated in the same dismissive way as are > cries of "wolf" from boys. > The best part is that this is not an Us v Them battle. It is Us v > Us-except-for-acupuncture. > One request, though - could you start a thread just for the war so > that the rest of us can killfile it and still continue to read the > excellent posts that both of you make elsewhere. What? Are you suggesting that there isn't universal interest in this ongoing pissing contest? Well, in light of Richard's most recent admission that he has no interest in learning about acupuncture (nor chiropractic, as he also mentioned), its probably best to put him back into time-out until after Pesach. After all, he sure does like to divert the discussion to religion and I'm sure he & I would enjoy the holiday even more without having to spend it together. http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/816510040a... <snip for brevity> : But, if you prefer learning about chiropractic, go for it! I don't prefer learning about either. <snip for brevity> I missed it, post a link so I can judge who the winner is! On Apr 15, 5:20 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > I would like to congratulate Richard Schultz and Andrew Kingoff for > > conducting the best flame war seen on MHA for many a day. Both have [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > <snip for brevity> " <Andrew_Kingoff@yahoo.com> Poor Andrew Lawrence Kingoff repeating himself, On Apr 15, 5:20 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > I would like to congratulate Richard Schultz and Andrew Kingoff for > > conducting the best flame war seen on MHA for many a day. Both have [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > to religion and I'm sure he & I would enjoy the holiday even more > without having to spend it together. Oh! Just like Peter who refuses to even look at Homeopathy journals! Citizen Jimserac >I would like to congratulate Richard Schultz and Andrew Kingoff for > conducting the best flame war seen on MHA for many a day. Both have > demonstrated outstanding intransigence and admirable politeness. Tell another lie before than one gets cold. :>I would like to congratulate Richard Schultz and Andrew Kingoff for :> conducting the best flame war seen on MHA for many a day. Both have :> demonstrated outstanding intransigence and admirable politeness. : : Tell another lie before than one gets cold. Whoosh. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing." >:>I would like to congratulate Richard Schultz and Andrew Kingoff for >:> conducting the best flame war seen on MHA for many a day. Both have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Whoosh. It seems to be some sort of Pavlovian response, Jan sees my name and hits the Alt key combination for "liar". Sad that. SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com :>:>I would like to congratulate Richard Schultz and Andrew Kingoff for :>:> conducting the best flame war seen on MHA for many a day. Both have :>:> demonstrated outstanding intransigence and admirable politeness. :>: Tell another lie before than one gets cold. :>Whoosh. : It seems to be some sort of Pavlovian response, Jan sees my name and : hits the Alt key combination for "liar". Ha -- I get "off topic." ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad." > :Whoosh. Whoosh is not the subject. > ----- > Richard Schultz :> :Whoosh. : Whoosh is not the subject. Whoooosh! ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- ". . . for while he was not dumber than an ox, he was not any smarter." -- James Thurber, _My Life and Hard Times_ : I would like to congratulate Richard Schultz and Andrew Kingoff for : conducting the best flame war seen on MHA for many a day. Both have : demonstrated outstanding intransigence and admirable politeness. Of : course there have been accusations of lying, but that is just a form : of banter around here and is treated in the same dismissive way as are : cries of "wolf" from boys. I just want to make it clear that the only reason that I call Mr. Kingoff a "liar" (with not a little irony) is that he has what I would call an idiosyncratic understanding of the term. I don't actually think that he is a "liar" in the sense of a person who routinely tells lies as the term is understood by most people (and for which I have provided on more than one occasion a specific definition). But if according to *his* idiosyncratic use of the term, he is a liar, what choice to I have but to use the term? : The best part is that this is not an Us v Them battle. It is Us v : Us-except-for-acupuncture. With this statement, I am afraid I have to differ. The issue is really a deeper one. The question at hand really is about the nature of critical thinking and how do we apply it. Since Mr. Kingoff has what can only be described as a religious faith in the efficacy of acupuncture, he simply refuses to apply any kind of critical thinking to it -- as can be seen by his absolute refusal to deal with, or even acknowledge, any evidence that his faith might be misplaced. On a deeper level, his appreciation for and understanding of science in general does not seem to be nearly as developed as he seems to think. Let me ask you: do you, Peter Bowditch, not find it at the very least ironic that he is willing to support your efforts to stamp out health fraud -- and yet he claims that he can cure the flu? : One request, though - could you start a thread just for the war so : that the rest of us can killfile it and still continue to read the : excellent posts that both of you make elsewhere. I have stated many times that I am not particularly interested in a flame war with him. I would much rather discuss, say, the list of articles that I posted, or even the 2004 osteoarthritis study. My offer to explain to him the statistical problem with "proving" the efficacy of acupuncture, or *any* medical technique, stands. Alas, he does not seem to be all that interested. ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" > : I would like to congratulate Richard Schultz and Andrew Kingoff for > : conducting the best flame war seen on MHA for many a day. Both have [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > idiosyncratic > use of the term, he is a liar, what choice to I have but to use the term? Where oh, where did I put my hip boots. |
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