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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / April 2008Carbohydrate Alleviates Fatigue
Pediatr Neurol. 2008 Feb ;38 (2):133-136 18206796 (P,S,E,B,D) One-Year Follow-Up in a Child With McArdle Disease: Exercise is Medicine. [My paper] Margarita Pérez, Carl Foster, Marta González-Freire, Joaquín Arenas, Alejandro Lucia Department of Exercise Physiology, Universidad Europea de Madrid, Madrid, Spain. A 9-year-old boy with McArdle disease, who demonstrated remarkable recovery of objectively measured exercise tolerance after 1 year of follow-up, during which he pursued age-appropriate physical activities. The patient presented 1 year previously with severe myalgia, muscle weakness, proteinuria, hematuria, hyperthermia, and elevated creatine kinase levels after noncompetitive swimming. At that time, he reported a 3-year history of general myalgia and poor exercise tolerance. He was diagnosed with McArdle disease by both biochemical and genetic methods. Subsequently he performed a maximal exercise test and was prescribed a return to age-appropriate physical activity (protected by a pre-exercise dietary consumption of approximately 20 g carbohydrate). At 1-year follow up, he reported no subsequent acute clinical episodes, no general problems with exercise either at school or in ordinary activities, a virtual normalization of serum creatine kinase levels, and a 14% increase in body mass-adjusted peak oxygen uptake (from 18.8 to 21.8 mL O(2)/kg/min). The results suggest that, with protection by increasing pre-exercise blood glucose with carbohydrate ingestion, a substantially normal lifestyle may be possible in some children with McArdle disease. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk On Apr 14, 6:39 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: > Pediatr Neurol. 2008 Feb ;38 (2):133-136 18206796 (P,S,E,B,D) One-Year > Follow-Up in a Child With McArdle Disease: Exercise is Medicine. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk 20 g of carbs is less than the Atkins much maligned 2 week induction. On Apr 14, 5:03 pm, TC <tunder...@hotmail.com> wrote:20 g of carbs is less than the Atkins much maligned 2 week induction << That went over my head .. This article said .. PRE-**exercise** .. so I don't know whether this relates to what you said .. ? Doesn't it say .. load some carbs before exercise .. ? "Protection by increasing pre-exercise carbohydrate ingestion" What does Atkin's have to do with that .. ? I'm missing something .. Does Atkins allow for more glucose to be used .. ? I might be more inclined to believe the hemolysis caused by exercise is offset by the increased phosphate / remediation INDUCED by the carbohydrate. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 14, 6:39 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 15, 7:59 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:phosphate << High altitude is a human model of iron overload in that it causes erythrocytosis / increased red blood cell production. Coincidentally .. fatigue .. is ,, relieved .. by phosphates. "Phosphate supplementation" Effect of phosphate supplementation on oxygen delivery at high altitude Journal International Journal of Biometeorology Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg ISSN 0020-7128 (Print) 1432-1254 (Online) Issue Volume 31, Number 3 / September, 1987 DOI 10.1007/BF02188928 Pages 249-257 Subject Collection Biomedical and Life Sciences SpringerLink Date Friday, September 30, 2005 Effect of phosphate supplementation on oxygen delivery at high altitude S. C. Jain1, M. V. Singh1, S. B. Rawal1, V. M. Sharma1, H. M. Divekar1, A. K. Tyagi1, M. R. Panwar1 and Y. V. Swamy2 (1) Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences, 110010 Delhi Cantt, India (2) Naval Science and Technological Lab., 530006 Vishakapatnam, India Received: 31 July 1985 Abstract In the present communication, effect of low doses of phosphate supplementation on short-term high altitude adaptation has been examined. Studies were carried out in 36 healthy, male, sea-level residents divided in a double blind fashion into drug and placebo treated groups. 3.2 mmol of phosphate were given orally to each subject of the drug treated group once a day for 4 days on arrival at an altitude of 3,500 m. Sequential studies were done in the subjects in both groups on the 3rd, 7th, 14th and 21st day of their altitude stay. Haemoglobin, haematocrit, erythrocyte and reticulocyte counts increased to the similar extent in both groups. Blood pH, pO2 and adenosine tri-phosphate (ATP) did not differ between the two groups. On 3rd day of the altitude stay, inorganic phosphate and 2,3- diphosphoglycerate (2,3 DPG) levels in the drug treated group increased significantly as compared to the placebo group. No significant difference in inorganic phosphate and 2,3 DPG was observed later on in the two groups. Psychological and clinical tests also indicated that the drug treated subjects felt better as compared to the placebo treated subjects. The present study suggests that low doses of phosphate increases circulating 2,3-DPG concentration which in turn brings about beneficial effect towards short term high altitude adaptation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (c) Springer. Part of Springer Science+Business Media Privacy, Disclaimer, Terms and Conditions, (c) Copyright Information Remote Address: 209.107.118.238 * Server: MPWEB21 HTTP User Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1) > On Apr 14, 5:03 pm, TC <tunder...@hotmail.com> wrote:20 g of carbs is > less than the Atkins much maligned 2 week induction << [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > - Show quoted text - phosphate << Curious how iron ingestion depletes phosphorus and hormones. "Ferric salts decrease net intestinal phosphate absorption" "Decreased serum phosphorus and parathyroid hormone concentrations" J Am Soc Nephrol 10:1274-1280, 1999 © 1999 American Society of Nephrology -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REGULAR ARTICLES New Phosphate Binding Agents Ferric Compounds CHEN H. HSU, SANJEEVKUMAR R. PATEL and ERIC W. YOUNG Nephrology Division, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Michigan Medical School, VA Medical Center, Ann Arbor, Michigan. Correspondence to Dr. Chen H. Hsu, 3914 Taubman Center, Nephrology Division, University Hospital, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-0364. Phone: 313-936-9480; Fax: 313-936-9621; E-mail: hsuc@umich.edu Abstract. Several prior studies suggest that ferric compounds bind dietary phosphate and possess clinical potential as phosphate binding agents. Therefore, this study was conducted to measure the effect of several ferric compounds on intestinal phosphate binding and absorption. Balance studies lasting 2 to 4 wk were performed in normal and azotemic (achieved by subtotal nephrectomy) rats maintained on a 1.02% phosphorus diet supplemented with ferric salts (formulated to 0.95% Fe) or no ferric salt (control). In rats with normal renal function (average creatinine clearance, 4.0 ml/min per kg), the average net intestinal absorption of phosphate over all balance periods was 103.3 mg/d for the control group versus 84.7 mg/d for the ferric citrate group (P < 0.005). In the azotemic rats (average creatinine clearance, 3.3 ml/min per kg), the average net intestinal absorption of phosphate over all balance periods was significantly lower for the three ferric groups than the control groups (P 0.02): 95.3 mg/d for the control group versus 75.6 mg/d for the ferric ammonium citrate-treated group (P = 0.058), 77.0 mg/d for the ferric citrate-treated group (P = 0.057), and 62.5 mg/d for the ferric chloride-treated group (P < 0.002). Urinary phosphate excretion fell, sometimes to an even greater extent than did intestinal absorption, yielding no net reduction in phosphate balance in these growing, young animals with relatively preserved renal function. Calcium balance was largely unaffected by the ferric compounds. There were trends toward decreased serum phosphorus and parathyroid hormone concentrations and increased iron and hematocrit in the ferric-treated azotemic groups. All tested ferric compounds were well tolerated, but animal growth was stunted in the ferric chloride animals compared with the control group. Phosphate binding was estimated at 85 to 180 mg per gram of elemental iron, which is comparable to other phosphate binding agents. Ferric salts decrease net intestinal phosphate absorption and hold promise for the treatment of phosphate retention in patients with renal failure. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 15, 7:59 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> > wrote:phosphate << [quoted text clipped - 134 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > phosphate << > > Curious how iron ingestion depletes phosphorus and hormones. Phosphorus is depleted by carbohydrate processing/metabolism in the first place (like VitB1 is). If you go low carb you don't need to "supplement" phosphorus, there is plenty of it in the meat - and as a side benefit you don't get gout which is also partially caused by phosphorus deficiency leading to the inability to phosphorylate ADP to ATP. How about creatine, that is less toxic source of phosphorus than phytates and has been shown to protect brain mitochondria from oxidative DNA damage ... Taka On Apr 15, 6:04 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: Phosphorus is depleted by carbohydrate processing/metabolism in the first place (like VitB1 is). << I find that kind of strange since the chaff part of the grain / carbohydrate is WHERE the B vitamins are found .. AND .. the phosphates .. On Apr 15, 6:04 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: If you go low carb you don't need to "supplement" phosphorus, there is plenty of it in the meat -<< "Ferric salts decrease net intestinal phosphate absorption" I kinda wonder whether this phosphate from this **high iron** meat is REALLY all that .. "absorbable" .. as you .. seem to be saying. "Ferric salts decrease net intestinal phosphate absorption" That means iron .. ferric salts .. mean .. iron. Write it down. On Apr 15, 6:04 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: and as a side benefit you don't get gout << Quite a few people argue it is the meat **specifically** which causes gout .. IE: diet high in purines. Bloodletting / iron reduction recommended for gout. Vegetarian diet high in phosphates .. coincidentally .. shown to improve gout. On Apr 15, 6:04 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: How about creatine, that is less toxic source of phosphorus than phytates and has been shown to protect brain mitochondria from oxidative DNA damage ... << You can get a high source of creatine from a .. whole wheat pita wrap .. can ya .. ? How much you .. figure .. ? How about .. peas .. ? Can I get a good dose of creatine from a good big serving of sweet .. green .. peas .. ? Eh .. How much you .. figure .. ? Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > > phosphate << > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Taka On Apr 15, 6:04 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: you don't need to "supplement" phosphorus, there is plenty of it in the meat -<< Pound for pound there seems to be QUITE a bit more phosphates in plants than meat. You good at math .. ? 10 times more phosphates in wheat .. ? http://labs.ansci.uiuc.edu/meatscience/Library/additives.htm "There is about 0.1 percent of naturally occurring phosphate in meat" http://tinyurl.com/2rxqnf "In buckwheat and spelt wheat a considerable content (about 1% or more) of phytic acid ( myoinositol phosphate) can be found." Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 15, 6:04 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: Phosphorus is > depleted by carbohydrate processing/metabolism in the first place [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > - Show quoted text - phosphate << "Oral phosphate" Postgraduate Medical Journal, 1998, Vol 74, 229-232 Phosphate diabetes in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome F De Lorenzo, J Hargreaves and VV Kakkar Beatrice Research Centre, London, UK. Phosphate depletion is associated with neuromuscular dysfunction due to changes in mitochondrial respiration that result in a defect of intracellular oxidative metabolism. Phosphate diabetes causes phosphate depletion due to abnormal renal re- absorption of phosphate be the proximal renal tubule. Most of the symptoms presented by patients with phosphate diabetes such as myalgia, fatigue and mild depression, are also common in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome, but this differential diagnosis has not been considered. We investigated the possible association between chronic fatigue syndrome and phosphate diabetes in 87 patients who fulfilled the criteria for chronic fatigue syndrome. Control subjects were 37 volunteers, who explicitly denied fatigue and chronic illness on a screening questionnaire. Re-absorption of phosphate by the proximal renal tubule, phosphate clearance and renal threshold phosphate concentration were the main outcome measures in both groups. Of the 87 patients with chronic fatigue syndrome, nine also fulfilled the diagnostic criteria for phosphate diabetes. In conclusion, we report a previously undefined relationship between chronic fatigue syndrome and phosphate diabetes. Phosphate diabetes should be considered in differential diagnosis with chronic fatigue syndrome; further studies are needed to investigate the incidence of phosphate diabetes in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome and the possible beneficial effect of vitamin D and oral phosphate supplements. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- © The Fellowship of Postgraduate Medicine, 1998 Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 15, 6:04 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: you don't need to > "supplement" phosphorus, there is plenty of it [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 15, 6:04 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: Phosphorus is depleted by carbohydrate processing/metabolism in the first place (like VitB1 is). << I could not find a reference for this .. "depletion of thiamin / VitB1" .. that you made reference to. The best I could find is the increased usage of thiamin to digest carbohydrates. Butttt .. the curious thing here is that the carbohydrates contain thiamin and so logically the more carbohydrate you eat the more thiamin you ingest. It seems EVERY carbohydrate .. contains thiamin .. http://www.vitamins-supplements.org/vitamin-B1-thiamine.php Thiamine (vitamin B1) is found in fortified breads, cereals, pasta, whole grains (especially wheat germ), dried beans, peas, and soybeans. Good sources of thiamine include wheat germ, dry beans, peas, enriched cereals and breads, pasta, nuts, and most vegetables. The richest food sources of vitamin B1 are brewer's or nutritional yeast, brown rice, legumes,nuts, peas, rice bran, dulse, kelp, spirulina, wheat germ and whole grains. A high carbohydrate diet will increase the need for thiamin. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > > phosphate << > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Taka > On Apr 15, 6:04 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: Phosphorus is > depleted by carbohydrate processing/metabolism in the first place [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > spirulina, wheat germ and whole grains. A high carbohydrate diet will > increase the need for thiamin. Yep, but some refined carbohydrates and sugars/HCFS are not fortified with VitB1 like the refined oils are not fortified with enough antioxidants to counteract lipid peroxidation. I also have not heard that refined carbohydrates are fortified with bioavailable phosphorus ... Is the phytate-bound phosphorus bioavailable? It looks to me more like an antinutrient. Taka On Apr 15, 11:50 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote:refined carbohydrates << "pre-exercise dietary consumption of approximately 20 g carbohydrate" One might hope they used bananas instead of twinkies / refined carbohydrate. On Apr 15, 11:50 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: Is the phytate- bound phosphorus bioavailable? It looks to me more like an antinutrient. << You are kinda .. behind .. Phytate has now been accepted as a .. good .. thing .. Pretty much. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > phosphorus ... On Apr 15, 11:50 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: Is the phytate-bound phosphorus bioavailable? It > looks to me more like an antinutrient. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 16, 9:03 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:refined carbohydrates << If a handful of raisins has been shown to TOTALLY offset the oxidative stress in a marathon runner during his run .. one might wonder IF raisins are a good source of carbohydrates .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 15, 11:50 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote:refined > carbohydrates << [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 16, 9:11 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:one might wonder IF raisins are a good source of carbohydrates .. << Well .. well .. well .. Raisins ARE carbohydrates .. They have taken the .. "BE the carbohydrate" .. to a new level .. 50X more on average. They have become ONE .. with .. the carbohydrate .. You will be hardpressed to find anything BUT carbohydrates IN the raisin .. Which would give credence to the carbohydrate intake offsetting the problems associated with exercise BECAUSE raisins are SO efficient / efficacy .. AT .. offsetting the problems associated with .. exercise. I wonder if they have any .. phosphates .. ? Food Item:Raisins, seedless Food Quantity: 1 cup Carbs: 115g Dietary Fiber: 5.4g Net Carbs: 109.6g http://www.weightlossforall.com/carbohydrates-vegetables.htm The table below lists amount of carbohydrates in vegetables per 100g (3.5 oz). Vegetable Carbohydrates Calories Asparagus 2g 26 Aubergine 2.3g 15 Calories in Beans 8-18g Medium Beetroot 8g 38 Broccoli 2g 32 Brussels Sprouts 4g 40 Cabbage average 4g 24 Carrot 8g 32 Cauliflower 3g 32 Celery 1g 8 Chicory 3g 10 Courgette 2g 20 Cucumber 1.5g 10 Fennel 1.9g 13 Gherkins 2.8g 15 Gourd 1g 12 Leek 3g 22 Lettuce (average) 1.5g 13 Marrow 2g 10 Mushroom 0.5g 12 Okra 3g 30 Onion 8g 35 Onion Spring 6g 23 Parsnip 12g 60 Calories in Peas 10-15g Medium Peppers 1.6g 18 Potato Calories 15-25g low-med Pumpkin 2.1g 12 Radish 2g 13 Spinach 1.5g 23 Swede 5g 22 Sweetcorn 2g 24 Tomatoes 3g 18 Turnip 4.5g 21 Watercress 0.3g 21 Yam 27g 110 Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 16, 9:03 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:refined > carbohydrates << [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 16, 9:33 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:50X more on average. << Whoops .. one cup is about 229 grams sooo .. raisins would be about 50 grams per 100 grams thereabouts .. still much more than anything .. Soooo .. 'reverse engineering' .. shows .. ? A few years back they showed raisins offset .. totally .. the oxidative stress associated with a .. **marathon** .. and NOW .. a few years LATER .. ? .. "carbohydrates alleviate crippling fatigue in a child" .. Let's keep our fingers .. crossed. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 16, 9:11 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:one > might wonder IF raisins are a good source of carbohydrates .. << [quoted text clipped - 158 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 16, 9:45 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:pre- exercise dietary consumption of approximately 20 g carbohydrate << http://www.wise2food.com/food09298.html 50 raisins Total Carbohydrate 20.59g On Apr 16, 9:45 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:I wonder if they have any .. phosphates .. ? Phosphorus 26mg Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 16, 9:33 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:50X > more on average. << [quoted text clipped - 184 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > On Apr 16, 9:03 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:refined > carbohydrates << > > If a handful of raisins has been shown to TOTALLY offset the oxidative > stress in a marathon runner during his run .. one might wonder IF > raisins are a good source of carbohydrates .. Certainly they are for MARATHON RUNNERs who exert their bodies to a great extent. If you overexercise, like they do, reducing the excessive oxidative stress with raisin-based-resveratrol is helpful. Also carbohydrates/glucose is the best fuel for the brain and muscle so if it is burned for energy it doesn't make any harm. Simple carbs given DURING or POST-exercise do not spike insulin, this is quite important! But if you give excessive carbohydrates to sedentary people or those with cancerous cells in their bodies? Still the raisins and honey are far better sources of sugar than any refined carb crap around here. Are you an athlete, Tom? Taka > Who loves ya. > Tom [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 16, 6:48 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote:Certainly they are for MARATHON RUNNERs who exert their bodies to a great extent. << I think there is quite the 'window' between a marathon runner and a nine year old kid with crippling fatigue .. I think .. I .. would fit in that window .. How about you trig .. you fit in that window .. ? Soooo .. contrary to what you seem to be saying in your reply .. carbohydrates like raisins or yams are very good sources of energy and they may even .. cure you .. of crippling fatigue .. On Apr 16, 6:48 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote:Are you an athlete, Tom? << Professional .. ? Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > > On Apr 16, 9:03 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:refined > > carbohydrates << [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> On Apr 15, 6:04 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: Phosphorus is >> depleted by carbohydrate processing/metabolism in the first place [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > phosphorus ... Is the phytate-bound phosphorus bioavailable? It > looks to me more like an antinutrient. I know phytic acid binds zinc, iron, calcium, magnesium, and copper, but I didn't know it bound nonmetals. Are you sure about phosphorus?  SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c >> phosphate << >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > phytates and has been shown to protect brain mitochondria from > oxidative DNA damage ... Whoa, Taka! Creatine doesn't contain phosphorus; it soaks it up. Phosphocreatine (or creatine phosphate, or CP), is what releases it for short bursts of energy, after which it soaks it up again. It's a short-term anaerobic intramuscular energy store, good for sprints, but replenishing it leaves you panting. During activity, CP --> ATP + creatine; at rest, ATP + creatine --> CP. Creatine: C4H9N3O2. No pee. :-) SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c On Apr 14, 4:39 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: How to cause .. fatigue / myalgia .. ? Remove all the phosphates. Carbs are high in phosphates and coincidentally carbohydrates **relieve** fatigue. "Chronic phosphate depletion, myalgia, weakness and bone pain" Aust N Z J Med. 1990 Dec;20(6):803-5.Links Antacid-induced phosphate depletion syndrome presenting as nephrolithiasis. Harmelin DL, Martin FI, Wark JD. Royal Melbourne Hospital, Vic., Australia. A 29-year-old insulin-dependent diabetic woman developed phosphate depletion, nephrolithiasis and bilateral ureteric obstruction due to antacid abuse. Unlike previous descriptions of chronic phosphate depletion, myalgia, weakness and bone pain were absent. Biochemical features included hypophosphataemia, hypercalciuria, hypophosphaturia, elevated plasma, 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D and low plasma intact parathyroid hormone. These abnormalities were corrected when antacid ingestion was reduced and phosphate intake supplemented. We propose that phosphate depletion secondary to antacid abuse caused 1 alpha- hydroxylase activation and elevation of the plasma 1,25- dihydroxyvitamin D level, leading to marked hypercalciuria. Once diagnosed, antacid abuse is a readily reversible cause of hypercalciuria and renal stones. Moreover, antacid-induced phosphate depletion may present with nephrolithiasis in the absence of musculoskeletal symptoms. This report is intended to draw attention to this important cause of renal stone disease. PMID: 2291730 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] ------------------------------------------------------- This article shows .. "curiously" .. increased work capacity correspond to phosphate levels .. "increased work capacity was associated with higher end-exercise levels of inorganic phosphate" --------------------------------------------------------- http://www.mda.org/research/mcardle-tx.html Phosphocreatine is an important source of energy in McArdle disease and an exaggerated decline in phosphocreatine levels relative to workload is typical of this condition. Curiously, however, muscle phosphocreatine levels as determined by phosphorus magnetic resonance spectroscopy were not significantly increased with creatine supplement use when compared with placebo use in the study of Vorgerd et al. Instead, increased work capacity was associated with increased phosphocreatine breakdown and with higher end-exercise levels of inorganic phosphate. This implies that the beneficial effect was not due to an increase in energy availability but instead to an effect that somehow permitted exercise to continue to a level of greater energy depletion. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > Pediatr Neurol. 2008 Feb ;38 (2):133-136 18206796 (P,S,E,B,D) One-Year > Follow-Up in a Child With McArdle Disease: Exercise is Medicine. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk On Apr 14, 5:30 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote:bone pain << Anyone find it .. curious .. these expensive bisphosphonates which seem to be .. "miraculous" .. in their efficacy FOR .. bone pain .. seem to contain .. phosphates .. ? http://www.news-medical.net/?id=11842 "There is no evidence currently available to definitely confirm that one bisphosphonate is better than another, mainly because the appropriate studies have not been done," he adds. I would say .. there IS evidence .. one is better than the other .. mine costs .. nothing. It is .. free. ----------------------------------------------- You know there seems to be a bisphosphonate found in your .. grub. Phytate / phytic acid .. found in the chaff of your grain and in your plants compared to .. etidronate. http://tinyurl.com/2wuhuk Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 14, 4:39 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 14, 6:04 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: hypophosphataemia << It seems when on is low on phosphate one gets fibromyalgia / Rhabdomyolysis. http://askwaltstollmd.com/archives/fibromyo/154835.html#155066 Rhabdomyolysis is a far advanced complication of fibromyositis (same as fibromyalgia). http://members.tripod.com/~baggas/rhabdo.html#complications Hypophosphataemia may be an important precipitant of rhabdomyolysis Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 14, 5:30 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> > wrote:bone pain << [quoted text clipped - 133 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 14, 9:54 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: hypophosphataemia << Article Reduced high-energy phosphate levels in the painful muscles of patients with primary fibromyalgia Ann Bengtsson, MD 1 2 *, K. G. Henriksson, MD, PhD 1 2, Jörgen Larsson, MD, PhD 1 2 1Division of Rheumatology, Department of Internal Medicine, the Neuromuscular Unit, Linköping, Sweden 2Department of Surgery, University Hospital, Linköping, Sweden *Correspondence to Ann Bengtsson, Division of Rheumatology, Department of Internal Medicine, University Hospital, 581 85 Linköping, Sweden Funded by: Research Fund of the University Hospital in Linköping Research Fund of King Gustav V Östergötland County Council Swedish Multiple Sclerosis Foundation Abstract Muscle energy metabolism was studied by chemical analysis of biopsy samples from: 1) trigger points in the trapezius muscle from 15 patients with primary fibromyalgia (PF), 2) nonpainful, anterior tibial muscle from 6 patients with PF, and 3) the trapezius muscle from 8 healthy controls. We found a decrease in the levels of adenosine triphosphate, adenosine diphosphate, and phosphoryl creatine, and an increase in the levels of adenosine monophosphate and creatine, in the trapezius muscles from the patients. These findings support the notion that the pain in patients with PF is of muscular origin. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: 30 January 1985; Accepted: 30 December 1985 Digital Object Identifier (DOI) 10.1002/art.1780290701 About DOI Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 14, 6:04 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: > hypophosphataemia << [quoted text clipped - 159 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 14, 10:24 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: phosphate << What IS it about the phosphates and muscle pain .. ? http://tinyurl.com/5ww4wn "Sometimes athletes use phosphate supplements before competitions or heavy workouts to help reduce muscle pain and fatigue." Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 14, 9:54 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: > hypophosphataemia << [quoted text clipped - 209 lines] > > - Show quoted text - http://www3.baylor.edu/HHPR/ESNL/publications/MWESNCh2-29-46-99.pdf > On Apr 14, 10:24 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> > wrote: phosphate << [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Who loves ya. > Tom > http://www3.baylor.edu/HHPR/ESNL/publications/MWESNCh2-29-46-99.pdf From the text: QUOTE: Grains also contain substantial amounts of phosphorus, but are not considered as good a source as animal products since part of the phosphorus exists as inositol hexaphosphate (phytate) which is not as highly absorbable. UNQUOTE. The bottom line - get your lecithin from animal meats, dairy products, and eggs or the phosphoric acid straight from the Coke ;-) BTW anecdotal evidence (from a physician) says that Coke relieves nausea/ vomiting. Taka On Apr 16, 11:13 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: dairy products, and eggs or the phosphoric acid straight from the Coke<< Soo in your opinion a .. 'milk and pepsi' cooler .. is what you would give this kid with crippling fatigue ..? THAT would be your choice AS the 20 grams worth of carbohydrate .. ? Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > >http://www3.baylor.edu/HHPR/ESNL/publications/MWESNCh2-29-46-99.pdf > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Taka On Apr 17, 5:57 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> wrote:carbohydrate << http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates.html In the meantime, eating whole grains, beans, fruits, and vegetables- all foods with a low glycemic index-is indisputably good for many aspects of health. Adding Good Carbohydrates For optimal health, get your grains intact from foods such as whole wheat bread, brown rice, whole-grain pasta, and other possibly unfamiliar grains like quinoa, whole oats, and bulgur. Not only will these foods help protect you against a range of chronic diseases, they can also please your palate and your eyes. Until recently, you could only get whole-grain products in organic or non-traditional stores. Today they are popping up in more and more mainstream grocery stores. Here are some suggestions for adding more good carbohydrates to your diet: Start the day with whole grains. If you're partial to hot cereals, try old-fashioned or steel-cut oats. If you're a cold cereal person, look for one that lists whole wheat, whole oats, or other whole grain first on the ingredient list. Use whole-grain breads for lunch or snacks. Check the label to make sure that whole wheat or another whole grain is the first ingredient listed. Bag the potatoes. Instead, try brown rice or even "newer" grains like bulgur, wheat berries, millet, or hulled barley with your dinner. Pick up some whole wheat pasta. If the whole-grain products are too chewy for you, look for those that are made with half whole-wheat flour and half white flour. Bring on the beans. Beans are an excellent source of slowly digested carbohydrates as well as a great source of protein. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 16, 11:13 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: dairy products, > and eggs or the phosphoric acid straight from the Coke<< [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > - Show quoted text - carbohydrate << This hypothesis means everytime you have a piece of .. bread .. it will give you rectum .. cancer .. Abstract Nutrition and Cancer 2004, Vol. 48, No. 1, Pages 1-5 (doi:10.1207/s15327914nc4801_1) A Hypothesis: Interaction Between Supplemental Iron Intake and Fermentation Affecting the Risk of Colon Cancer. The Iowa Women's Health Study Duk-Hee Lee, David R. Jacobs, Jr., Aaron R. Folsom Fermentation in the large intestine can increase absorption of ferrous iron, which is the main form in supplements, because the solubility of ferrous iron is enhanced in the mildly acidic environments caused by fermentation. We therefore hypothesized that higher supplemental iron intake would increase the risk of colon cancer among those who consume large amounts of fermentable substrates, namely, dietary fiber and resistant starch. Among 34,708 postmenopausal women, supplemental iron was unrelated to proximal colon cancer in all women and to distal colon cancer among those consuming below the median of fermentable substrates. However, supplemental iron was positively associated with distal colon cancer among women who consumed above the median of fermentable substrates (P for interaction %lt; 0.01); the adjusted relative risks across categories of supplemental iron (0 g/day, 1-19 g/day, 20-49 g/ day, and ≥50 g/day) were 1.0, 1.24, 1.78, and 3.78 (P for trend < 0.01). This hypothesis needs confirmation in other cohort studies because, despite the significant trend, only nine cases were included in the top category of ≥50 mg supplemental iron, and this finding could have arisen by chance. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 17, 5:57 am, ironjustice <teamtan...@hotmail.com> > wrote:carbohydrate << [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I was not talking about the good and bad carbohydrates, it was about phosphorus which is more bioavailable from the animal products than from the phytates. Consider the Coke as a joke but the fact that it relieves nausea is true and personally tested after recommendation by my physician. I don't know the mechanism behind, she said only the true Coke worked, not the low calories crap so the sugar may play a role ... Taka ironjustice のメッセージ: > On Apr 16, 11:13�pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: dairy products, > and eggs or the phosphoric acid straight from the Coke<< [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > > > Taka On Apr 17, 5:57 pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote:it was about phosphorus which is more bioavailable from the animal products than from the phytates. << You don't seem to get a whole lot .. right .. do ya .. Yesterday I told you meat didn't seem to be all that great a food / phosphate **source** .. IE: less than ten percent of that found in vegetables and here today you say the same thing .. Logic and reason don't work .. maybe science will .. They encourage people to eat meat BECAUSE of the **low** availability of the phosphates from meat. "avoid unnecessary dietary phosphate while increasing meat" http://tinyurl.com/5vx22o "the patient should be encouraged to avoid unnecessary dietary phosphate (as in dairy products, certain vegetables, many processed foods, and colas) while increasing the intake of high biologic value sources of protein (such as meat and eggs)." Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > I was not talking about the good and bad carbohydrates, it was about > phosphorus which is more bioavailable from the animal products than [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I was not talking about the good and bad carbohydrates, it was about phosphorus which is more bioavailable from the animal products than from the phytates. Consider the Coke as a joke but the fact that it relieves nausea is true and personally tested after recommendation by my physician. I don't know the mechanism behind, she said only the true Coke worked, not the low calories crap so the sugar may play a role ... Taka ironjustice ??????: > On Apr 16, 11:13?pm, Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote: dairy products, > and eggs or the phosphoric acid straight from the Coke<< [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > > > Taka Coke syrup is the key. My church sells it as a fountain drink at the county fair and Coke comes in two seperate cans and the dispenser mixes them together. One cane contains the syrup the other their recipe, as a child I was not feeling well at school and the had a small bottle of the syrup called coke syrup and it settled my stomach very quickly. I take a med called Mobic and when it upsets mt tummy I drink a Coke and it fixes me right up. > I was not talking about the good and bad carbohydrates, it was about > phosphorus which is more bioavailable from the animal products than [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Tim and Taka, I've spoken about this on another newsgroup, just recently. While being treated for a migraine many years ago, the physician on duty was a tad bit elderly.....he told me that in the "old days", that they'd treat migraines with coke and aspirin. The coke was to settle the stomach (nausea), the coke contained caffeine to help with the pain of the migraine, and the aspirin was to also help with the pain and help with blood flow. If you read on some of the OTC migraine medicine you'll find, caffeine, aspirin, and acetaminophen. If you drink the coke, it'll still help with the nausea and pain (because of the added caffeine). I would advise to eat something before you take this, if you can....even if it's just crackers. I also remember while I was a kid, those whom had the stomach flu, we were given either ginger ale or coke products to help hydrate and calm the stomach. Isn't it amazing that sometimes medical problems can be helped with the simplest of things, like a drink of coke, crackers, chicken soup, ginger tea? :-) Cokes all around! It's Friday.....!!!! Take care and be well out there! Debra Here's to us, Dana (clicking Coke glasses). Do you know that chicken soup is still recommended these days for a cold or flu? Also, I take OTC Excedrin for the main reason of it containing caffeine, so I know what you're talking about. Especially effective for headaches. Nanny On Apr 17, 10:38 pm, "Tim" <dognb...@alltel.net> wrote: > "Taka" <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Tim and Taka, I've spoken about this on another newsgroup, just recently. While being treated for a migraine many years ago, the physician on duty was a tad bit elderly.....he told me that in the "old days", that they'd treat migraines with coke and aspirin. The coke was to settle the stomach (nausea), the coke contained caffeine to help with the pain of the migraine, and the aspirin was to also help with the pain and help with blood flow. If you read on some of the OTC migraine medicine you'll find, caffeine, aspirin, and acetaminophen. If you drink the coke, it'll still help with the nausea and pain (because of the added caffeine). I would advise to eat something before you take this, if you can....even if it's just crackers. I also remember while I was a kid, those whom had the stomach flu, we were given either ginger ale or coke products to help hydrate and calm the stomach. Isn't it amazing that sometimes medical problems can be helped with the simplest of things, like a drink of coke, crackers, chicken soup, ginger tea? :-) Cokes all around! It's Friday.....!!!! Take care and be well out there! Debra > Here's to us, Dana (clicking Coke glasses). Do you know that chicken soup > is still recommended [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Nanny, Yer so funny.....with the Cokes! We're suppose to be in HI drinking our Mai Tai's! :-) Take care and be well out there! Debra Oops, Debra, you're right. I've gotta get in the right world here - for now that's Hawaii ;-) Nanny On Apr 18, 11:52 pm, "nanny" <gloria...@woh.rr.com> wrote: > Here's to us, Dana (clicking Coke glasses). Do you know that chicken soup > is still recommended [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Nanny, Yer so funny.....with the Cokes! We're suppose to be in HI drinking our Mai Tai's! :-) Take care and be well out there! Debra >> I was not talking about the good and bad carbohydrates, it was about >> phosphorus which is more bioavailable from the animal products than [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > > Take care and be well out there! Debra If he were *real* elderly, I'd suspect the aspirin helped the cocaine in Coca-Cola do the job! SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c > >> "Taka" <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Marshall, In those days, I'd consider anyone 15+ years of age older than moi, elderly! Not really. You've made a good point though......! No wonder he was smiling so much while he was telling me about the coke and aspirin for migraines. He must have been having a flashback to his younger years...... Take care and be well out there! Debra > I was not talking about the good and bad carbohydrates, it was about > phosphorus which is more bioavailable from the animal products than [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > called Mobic and when it upsets mt tummy I drink a Coke and it fixes me > right up. Maybe it's the phosphate. I wonder whether diet Coke would work as well. SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c > > I was not talking about the good and bad carbohydrates, it was about > > phosphorus which is more bioavailable from the animal products than [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Marshall, Yes, the diet Coke can also calm the stomach. It still has the caffeine, so that'll help with headaches as well. Take care and be well out there! Debra >Yes, the diet Coke can also calm the stomach. It still has the >caffeine, so that'll help with headaches as well. Can you still get the plain old Coke Syrup? When I was a pup it was very often used for the infamous upset belly. Signature"Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli On Apr 29, 7:56 am, Zomby-W...@cox.net wrote: > >Yes, the diet Coke can also calm the stomach. It still has the > >caffeine, so that'll help with headaches as well. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > "Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli Zomby-W, RE: Can you still get the plain old Coke Syrup? When I was a pup it was > very often used for the infamous upset belly. > -- > "Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli As a matter of fact, you can! I plugged Cola Syrup into the ole google.....and Wallah! Amazon.com sells it for $3.99 for 4oz. There's other folks selling it as well! Get your cups/glasses out......Cola Syrup all around! I'd like some ice in mine if you don't mind....... Take care and be well out there! Debra On Apr 29, 7:56 am, Zomby-W...@cox.net wrote: > >Yes, the diet Coke can also calm the stomach. It still has the > >caffeine, so that'll help with headaches as well. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > "Before all else, be armed" -- Machiavelli Zomby-W, Yes, you can. I plugged Cola Syrup into the ole Google, and Wallah! Amazon.com sells it for $3.99 for 4 oz. There's other folks selling it as well. Geesh, hope Major Tom doesn't get upset with his thread ending with Cola! Get your cups/glasses out.....Cola Syrup all around! I'd like ice in mine, if you don't mind! Take care and be well out there! Debra > I was not talking about the good and bad carbohydrates, it was about > phosphorus which is more bioavailable from the animal products than [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >>> >>> Taka Coke is a good source of phosphoric acid, but so are beans, oatmeal, potatoes, seeds, almonds, and tofu. SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c >> http://www3.baylor.edu/HHPR/ESNL/publications/MWESNCh2-29-46-99.pdf > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > anecdotal evidence (from a physician) says that Coke relieves nausea/ > vomiting. Don't jump to the "bottom line" so fast, Taka. Not everybody eats animal products, but some of them do win marathons. SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c > http://www3.baylor.edu/HHPR/ESNL/publications/MWESNCh2-29-46-99.pdf > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> "Sometimes athletes use phosphate supplements before competitions or >> heavy workouts to help reduce muscle pain and fatigue." That web page mentions "soft drinks, such as colas," but neither it nor my nutrition textbook goes beyond that. Is this an anti-soda conspiracy? Everybody knows Pepsi can dissolve a tooth overnight and remove rust from auto bodies, but how about winning marathons? Who's got the straight dope on other soft drinks and vegetarian foods as sources of phosphorous? It isn't even listed in my tables of food compositions, though it's the second most abundant mineral in the body. By the way, thank you, Michael, for the PDF link. Now I know PCr is another abbreviation for CP! SignatureMarshall Price of Miami Known to Yahoo as d021317c On Apr 26, 9:33 pm, Marshall Price <d0213...@yahoo.com> wrote:straight dope on other soft drinks and vegetarian foods as sources of phosphorous? << You forgot .. takas favorite .. meat .. Maybe do a search of the makeup of the phosphate they give you to .. treat .. hypophosphataemia .. and see if the phosphate in cola is the phosphate they tell you to take. Then check to see if the phytate type of phosphorus is .. different from phosphate or .. phosphorous .. even .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > >http://www3.baylor.edu/HHPR/ESNL/publications/MWESNCh2-29-46-99.pdf > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Marshall Price of Miami > Known to Yahoo as d021317c |
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