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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / April 2008

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Autism Awareness Day

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Jan Drew - 05 Apr 2008 21:05 GMT
Idiots, Savants and Celebrities

In what can usually be ascribed to a slow news day, CNN has dramatically
increased their coverage of autism. They even made a special section for it.
Except that it's not just some random slow news day, today was Autism
Awareness Day (which I didn't know until I was writing this blog). For too
long, autism was ignored or seen as just a developmental problem. When it
wasn't seen as that, it was seen as little more than a cool party trick,
since so many autistic people can do complex mathematics quickly, or play
music at a virtuoso level without training or many other feats that boggle
the average mind. In either event, it was misunderstood in a lot of ways,
much to the detriment of the people with autism and those who had to care
for them. Now, as autism rates rise to record levels (from less than 1
person per thousand in 1996 to almost 5 people per 1000 in 2007), people
have started to re-examine the causes and diagnosis of the disease. Parents
who are trying to become more medically savvy, in the face of shows like ER
and House, have now begun to question some of the facts they have been fed
and have also begun to notice the sharp rise in autism. This has been
coupled with a sharp rise in the number of recommended immunizations for
infants. Some have suggested that the rise in autism is linked to the
increased exposure to thimerosal as a preservative in immunization. Doctors
are disagreeing and parents are blaming the doctors. And the children still
suffer.

To be fair, both the doctors and the parents are concerned about the
children. Doctors care about children and children's disease and want them
to be safe from some of the nastiest things that attacked their
grandparents. There is an immunization for chicken pox, which in my
venerated generation hit almost all of it and was an accepted part of
childhood. Now, there's a vaccine for it. There are flu vaccines that are
recommended. There are vaccines for infants for viruses (viri, if you speak
the original Latin) that many have never heard of and improved vaccines many
of us had as infants. While there are those parents who are against
immunizations, the rational autism advocates are not against all
immunizations. They merely question the amount of immunizations,
specifically pointing the increase of recommended immunizations, from 10 to
36 before age 6. Comparing them both until age 4, it's 10 recommended in
1983 to 34 recommended in 2007. A lot of the new recommended immunizations
are better immunizations than the stuff that was available in 1993, and some
of them are totally new immunizations. Immunizations are tricky business, as
any epidemiologist will tell you. Most of the important ones are not one
shot and done, instead they have to be boosted many times. But, let's run
down the list MidnightRanter style.

Influenza vaccine (prenatal, 6, 18, 30, 42, 54 and 66 months). This is the
vaccine that is most likely to contain thimerosal, so it's the most
controversial. It is available without the thimerosal, but one generally
needs to pay extra for it and tell the doctor you want it. Note, this the
same flu adults get and the vaccine is the same one that doesn't cover
everything. Since there are many strains of the influenza virus, one vaccine
can't cover them all. In a healthy adult, the vaccine can take up to two
weeks to take effect, which means while your body is fighting off the
vaccine (to train it to fight off other viruses), you can get sick with
something else. And, well, a lot of kids get the flu and recover. Then there
are multiple Hepatitis B vaccinations. Read the description of Hep B. Are
small infants in ANY of these groups? Yet, the CDC recommends FOUR
vaccinations in the first 6 months. Hepatitis A is recommended twice, once
at 12 and again at 18 months, even though, again, children are not at risk.
IPV is the new and improved polio vaccine, and polio was once the scourge of
small children, until the work of Dr. Jonas Salk. Polio was a disease that
really affected children, and needs to be stopped as soon as possible. PCV
is a fairly nasty virus, but if you read the information, it says that it's
approved for children over 2, but the CDC recommends a vaccination at 12
months (1 year for those who flunked math) and also fewer doses are needed
for older children. Rotavirus vaccine is recommended 3 times, but it kills
60 children a year, and in the developing world, most of THOSE are
preventable with a hospital visit in time. So, if you cut out Hep A, Hep B,
Rotavirus, and influenza, that's most of the vaccinations right there, and
most of those can be done a single injection after 3 years of age.

While thimerosal isn't in all of these, it's in some of these. And while
some studies have proven that individually no one immunization causes
autism, there is a lack of studies about the combined effect of all these
immunizations have on the infant body. The problem with thimerosal as a
preservative is that it contains mercury. The FDA says it doesn't contain
much and well below the limits, but reading this again, even the FDA admits
that the number of vaccinations a child should receive might push the
mercury limits into toxic levels. After all, mercury is not like bad Chinese
food, you don't just pass it if it makes you sick. Mercury stays in your
system and can build up over time and become more toxic. Note, the CDC
didn't want to go into all this or seriously look at exactly how much damage
can be caused by injecting that much mercury and that many live viruses into
a baby. Mostly because that would be hard to do and might even be cruel to
experiment on. Note, not SO cruel to not recommend all parents inject the
hell out of their kids. Let's face it, we don't know much about infant
epidemiology because either they live or they don't and they can't report
symptoms well. So while one vaccine probably won't kill the average baby,
and hell, a dozen probably won't, but over 30, especially with many
multiplying the same virus, that can't be good for an infant.

I am not a doctor. Jenny McCarthy, strong advocate of autism concerns, isn't
one either. But she speaks up since she has a son who has autism and many
doctors wouldn't give her a straight answer about a lot of these things. She
discovered other resources online that helped her treat her son and found a
new treatment that might help. Doctors said she was nuts, she tried and her
son got better. Not autism free, but a lot closer to average. Doctors then
though that the initial diagnosis must have been wrong, or at least somehow
mistaken. They say it is impossible to treat autism by detoxifying (which is
what she did) the child's system. But, she did, and no doctor wanted to hear
about it. No doctor wanted to follow up and no doctor wanted to examine the
boy and try and replicate the procedures. Note, this is how science usually
advances: someone notices something, they try to make it happen again, try
to figure out why and then try to make a prediction and theory about it.
Science shouldn't reject something out of hand, but that's what is
happening. It's happening because there's a theory that contradicts a
current fact of science: immunizing children saves lives. There's a thing
called "herd immunity", which basically is the idea that if you immunize
enough of a given population, then the population is effective immune to
that disease. It works, but it's not a trump card. Herd immunity is
important and a good goal, but not caring about the possibility of autism is
not the way to go about it.

Because destroying lives is not the way to save lives.

http://midnightranter.livejournal.com/129583.html
Terry Jones - 06 Apr 2008 00:38 GMT
>I am not a doctor. Jenny McCarthy, strong advocate of autism concerns, isn't
>one either. But she speaks up since she has a son who has autism and many
>doctors wouldn't give her a straight answer about a lot of these things.
<...>
>But, she did, and no doctor wanted to hear
>about it. No doctor wanted to follow up and no doctor wanted to examine the
>boy and try and replicate the procedures.

Give this, then why can't you and posters like yourself understand how
contemptuous *your* behaviour comes across to adult autistics?

Ignoring their questions, ignoring their experiences, just repeatedly
and insistently  posting the same things again and again.

Your behaviour is no better than that of the "professionals" whom you
condemn.

And no, we're not spouting their "party line" - There are some
honourable exceptions, but too many of them are just as dogmatic about
autism as you lot (and just as evasive when it comes to dealing with
any evidence which might call into question their beliefs).
Signature


Terry

Bob Badour - 06 Apr 2008 00:50 GMT
>>I am not a doctor. Jenny McCarthy, strong advocate of autism concerns, isn't
>>one either.

Jenny McCarthy is just a tart who uses her child as a meal ticket.

(Not really a reply to Terry. I don't see Jan's trolls directly.)
D. C. Sessions - 06 Apr 2008 01:27 GMT
> (Not really a reply to Terry. I don't see Jan's trolls directly.)

Aren't killfiles *wonderful* ?

| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" |
|    The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?"    |
+---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Bob Badour - 06 Apr 2008 02:43 GMT
>>(Not really a reply to Terry. I don't see Jan's trolls directly.)
>
> Aren't killfiles *wonderful* ?

Don't stay home without one.
Mark Probert - 06 Apr 2008 02:43 GMT
> >>I am not a doctor. Jenny McCarthy, strong advocate of autism concerns, isn't
> >>one either.
>
> Jenny McCarthy is just a tart who uses her child as a meal ticket.

You got that right. No career to major career in a few weeks.

> (Not really a reply to Terry. I don't see Jan's trolls directly.)
Jan Drew - 07 Apr 2008 03:31 GMT
Idiots, Savants and Celebrities

In what can usually be ascribed to a slow news day, CNN has dramatically
increased their coverage of autism. They even made a special section for it.
Except that it's not just some random slow news day, today was Autism
Awareness Day (which I didn't know until I was writing this blog). For too
long, autism was ignored or seen as just a developmental problem. When it
wasn't seen as that, it was seen as little more than a cool party trick,
since so many autistic people can do complex mathematics quickly, or play
music at a virtuoso level without training or many other feats that boggle
the average mind. In either event, it was misunderstood in a lot of ways,
much to the detriment of the people with autism and those who had to care
for them. Now, as autism rates rise to record levels (from less than 1
person per thousand in 1996 to almost 5 people per 1000 in 2007), people
have started to re-examine the causes and diagnosis of the disease. Parents
who are trying to become more medically savvy, in the face of shows like ER
and House, have now begun to question some of the facts they have been fed
and have also begun to notice the sharp rise in autism. This has been
coupled with a sharp rise in the number of recommended immunizations for
infants. Some have suggested that the rise in autism is linked to the
increased exposure to thimerosal as a preservative in immunization. Doctors
are disagreeing and parents are blaming the doctors. And the children still
suffer.

To be fair, both the doctors and the parents are concerned about the
children. Doctors care about children and children's disease and want them
to be safe from some of the nastiest things that attacked their
grandparents. There is an immunization for chicken pox, which in my
venerated generation hit almost all of it and was an accepted part of
childhood. Now, there's a vaccine for it. There are flu vaccines that are
recommended. There are vaccines for infants for viruses (viri, if you speak
the original Latin) that many have never heard of and improved vaccines many
of us had as infants. While there are those parents who are against
immunizations, the rational autism advocates are not against all
immunizations. They merely question the amount of immunizations,
specifically pointing the increase of recommended immunizations, from 10 to
36 before age 6. Comparing them both until age 4, it's 10 recommended in
1983 to 34 recommended in 2007. A lot of the new recommended immunizations
are better immunizations than the stuff that was available in 1993, and some
of them are totally new immunizations. Immunizations are tricky business, as
any epidemiologist will tell you. Most of the important ones are not one
shot and done, instead they have to be boosted many times. But, let's run
down the list MidnightRanter style.

Influenza vaccine (prenatal, 6, 18, 30, 42, 54 and 66 months). This is the
vaccine that is most likely to contain thimerosal, so it's the most
controversial. It is available without the thimerosal, but one generally
needs to pay extra for it and tell the doctor you want it. Note, this the
same flu adults get and the vaccine is the same one that doesn't cover
everything. Since there are many strains of the influenza virus, one vaccine
can't cover them all. In a healthy adult, the vaccine can take up to two
weeks to take effect, which means while your body is fighting off the
vaccine (to train it to fight off other viruses), you can get sick with
something else. And, well, a lot of kids get the flu and recover. Then there
are multiple Hepatitis B vaccinations. Read the description of Hep B. Are
small infants in ANY of these groups? Yet, the CDC recommends FOUR
vaccinations in the first 6 months. Hepatitis A is recommended twice, once
at 12 and again at 18 months, even though, again, children are not at risk.
IPV is the new and improved polio vaccine, and polio was once the scourge of
small children, until the work of Dr. Jonas Salk. Polio was a disease that
really affected children, and needs to be stopped as soon as possible. PCV
is a fairly nasty virus, but if you read the information, it says that it's
approved for children over 2, but the CDC recommends a vaccination at 12
months (1 year for those who flunked math) and also fewer doses are needed
for older children. Rotavirus vaccine is recommended 3 times, but it kills
60 children a year, and in the developing world, most of THOSE are
preventable with a hospital visit in time. So, if you cut out Hep A, Hep B,
Rotavirus, and influenza, that's most of the vaccinations right there, and
most of those can be done a single injection after 3 years of age.

While thimerosal isn't in all of these, it's in some of these. And while
some studies have proven that individually no one immunization causes
autism, there is a lack of studies about the combined effect of all these
immunizations have on the infant body. The problem with thimerosal as a
preservative is that it contains mercury. The FDA says it doesn't contain
much and well below the limits, but reading this again, even the FDA admits
that the number of vaccinations a child should receive might push the
mercury limits into toxic levels. After all, mercury is not like bad Chinese
food, you don't just pass it if it makes you sick. Mercury stays in your
system and can build up over time and become more toxic. Note, the CDC
didn't want to go into all this or seriously look at exactly how much damage
can be caused by injecting that much mercury and that many live viruses into
a baby. Mostly because that would be hard to do and might even be cruel to
experiment on. Note, not SO cruel to not recommend all parents inject the
hell out of their kids. Let's face it, we don't know much about infant
epidemiology because either they live or they don't and they can't report
symptoms well. So while one vaccine probably won't kill the average baby,
and hell, a dozen probably won't, but over 30, especially with many
multiplying the same virus, that can't be good for an infant.

I am not a doctor. Jenny McCarthy, strong advocate of autism concerns, isn't
one either. But she speaks up since she has a son who has autism and many
doctors wouldn't give her a straight answer about a lot of these things. She
discovered other resources online that helped her treat her son and found a
new treatment that might help. Doctors said she was nuts, she tried and her
son got better. Not autism free, but a lot closer to average. Doctors then
though that the initial diagnosis must have been wrong, or at least somehow
mistaken. They say it is impossible to treat autism by detoxifying (which is
what she did) the child's system. But, she did, and no doctor wanted to hear
about it. No doctor wanted to follow up and no doctor wanted to examine the
boy and try and replicate the procedures. Note, this is how science usually
advances: someone notices something, they try to make it happen again, try
to figure out why and then try to make a prediction and theory about it.
Science shouldn't reject something out of hand, but that's what is
happening. It's happening because there's a theory that contradicts a
current fact of science: immunizing children saves lives. There's a thing
called "herd immunity", which basically is the idea that if you immunize
enough of a given population, then the population is effective immune to
that disease. It works, but it's not a trump card. Herd immunity is
important and a good goal, but not caring about the possibility of autism is
not the way to go about it.

Because destroying lives is not the way to save lives.

http://midnightranter.livejournal.com/129583.html

On Apr 5, 7:50 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Terry Jones wrote:
> > On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 20:05:20 GMT, "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Jenny McCarthy is just a tart who uses her child as a meal ticket.

You got that right. No career to major career in a few weeks.

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/7f9ddcddb6219eb3

Feb 2000

John, drop dead.

Signature

Mark Probert
Children can be cruel...unless adults teach them to be kind.

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/64a3bb7a62def6e3

Sdores wrote:

> https://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/181_03_020804/str10126_fm.html  I
> thought this might be interesting to some.  I am just looking around about
> this and I found this one.  There are of course, a lot more.  UM MOM
> Susan,
> I am still reading it so I hope it is revelent.

It sure is relevant. This is the most important part, emphasis added:

A 33-year-old woman presented to the emergency department with a 10-day
history of vesicular rash, 2 days of cough and fever, and 12 hours of
dyspnoea, malaise and facial swelling. Her three children were
recovering uneventfully from chickenpox. She had *no past history of
varicella infection or vaccination*. She was a non-smoker, had *no
pre-existing medical conditions* and was not known to be pregnant at the
time of presentation.

IOW, this was a normal (as normal as a non-vaccinating idiot could be)
and was healthy. Her kids got sick (note that they were most likely not
vaccinated) and she left them without a mother to help raise them.

This kind of outright stupidity really pisses me off.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.attn-deficit/msg/e4d8fd349e1bbb69

No, stupid, I have never said that. Do learn how to read for
comprehension. That means for understanding.  Anyone has the right to
post what they believe about various topics. When it gets personal
like this, it crosses the line.

A personal attack based on that person's medical condition goes way
beyond any form of civil discourse. You despicably justify it.

A personal attack based on that person's medical condition goes way
beyond any form of civil discourse. You despicably justify it.

> Live with it Probert.

I do, every day. You should, too. But, your life is not worth living.

http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~dbh/parshas/acharei/99/

What is the secret of cleansing our hearts so that we may love? How can we
do it? The verses which precede and follow Vayikra 19:17 include
commandments regarding speech.  Preceding is the admonishment against
gossiping and following is the commandment to reprove evil. Both these give
a clue for how to cleanse our hearts of hatred. First, we should not gossip
about a person when we are angry. It is not wrong to be angry, but when we
gossip, it only allows the anger to grow and it does absolutely nothing to
confront the situation. In fact, gossiping can be the epitome of self
justifying cowardice. Secondly, we must reprove our  neighbor and confront
him/her when he or she has done something wrong to you. Clearly this takes
tremendous amount of courage and it also demands that you give people the
benefit of the doubt. When we confront them, you allow them the opportunity
to know what is going on with us. We are forced to be honest. Reproval
clearly is not meant to humiliate the person that you are angry with;
reproving someone causes us to be concerned with who they are and who they
could be. By sharing with them what has hurt you or someone else, we give
them the opportunity to grow. This, of course, is the biggest challenge that
Hashem could give to a human being who is angry. However, through fulfilling
Hashem's will we make possible a world of kedushah - holiness - and ahavah -
love.

http://www.religion.emory.edu/faculty/robbins/SRI/Examples/texts/matthew/matt3.html

> (Not really a reply to Terry. I don't see Jan's trolls directly.)

Well, now there is another lie.

YOU reply to them, Mark S Probert.
Btw, for one that has a disabled child, you sure have NO compassion for
others.

Autism Awareness Day is not trolling.
Arak - 07 Apr 2008 16:37 GMT
> Jenny McCarthy is just a tart who uses her child as a meal ticket.

I thought I was the only one who thought this.  :^)

There is much money to be made on autism... too much money.

I'll be glad when autism's 15 minutes of fame are up, because the only
ones getting famous are people like McCarthy and people are *still*
not listening to autistics!  Can anyone else see something wrong with
that picture?

(Sorry...really cranky today...)

Arak /|\
Jan Drew - 08 Apr 2008 01:37 GMT
On Apr 5, 5:50 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Jenny McCarthy is just a tart who uses her child as a meal ticket.

I thought I was the only one who thought this.  :^)

How sad.

Try to trashing a mother.
earthpots - 08 Apr 2008 04:42 GMT
> On Apr 5, 5:50 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Try to trashing a mother.

And Ms. McCarthy and the Curbie ilk, along with vapid advocates of the
mercury conspiracy theories aren't/have'nt trashed autistics????

Signature

Carol
Contessa of Consternation
Known to leave foes discombobulated

Autistic Spectrum Code v.1.0
AS? d- s--:+ a+ c+ p+ t-- f S+ p@- e+ h- r- n+(-) i+ P m-() M

http://www32.brinkster.com/ascdecode/
"I have run rings around you logically". Monty Python

Email at clay_pots_47@nospam.com, removing the 'nospam' and replacing
with 'msn'.

Bob Badour - 08 Apr 2008 05:17 GMT
>>On Apr 5, 5:50 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> And Ms. McCarthy and the Curbie ilk, along with vapid advocates of the
> mercury conspiracy theories aren't/have'nt trashed autistics????

One wonders exactly what part of true, factual statements Ms. Drew finds
objectionable.

Does she object to all true statements of fact? Or just true statements
of fact about mothers? Exactly how does a true statement of fact trash
anyone?

If the facts do not reflect well upon a person, how exactly is that the
fault of anyone else?
Jan Drew - 08 Apr 2008 07:02 GMT
Jan Drew - 06 Apr 2008 02:49 GMT
>>I am not a doctor. Jenny McCarthy, strong advocate of autism concerns,
>>isn't
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> autism as you lot (and just as evasive when it comes to dealing with
> any evidence which might call into question their beliefs).

Not surprised that this thread would turn into to a personal trashing.
Sad that.

> Idiots, Savants and Celebrities
>
[quoted text clipped - 141 lines]
>
> http://midnightranter.livejournal.com/129583.html
Terry Jones - 06 Apr 2008 10:17 GMT
>Not surprised that this thread would turn into to a personal trashing.
>Sad that.

Not surprised (based on past performance) that you would once again
avoid answering the point that was being made.

But it's not "personal", I don't know you from Adam, all I know is
your behaviour when you post to this group.

Essentially you're acting like a spammer - You may well not gain any
financial benefit, but nonetheless you're trying to "sell" something.
Rather than answer questions about the "product", or become
productively involved in the group, you just keep on posting your
claims - again and again.

You claim to be concerned about autism in children, yet apparently
don't want anything to do with autistic adults.

Why is that?
Signature


Terry

Mark Probert - 06 Apr 2008 15:21 GMT
> You claim to be concerned about autism in children, yet apparently
> don't want anything to do with autistic adults.
>
> Why is that?

Some people do not believe in the existence of autistic adults. These
are the people who claim that Thimerosal is the cause of the so-called
autism epidemic, and deny the existence of diagnostic re-assignment,
broadening of the spectrum, and better/earlier diagnosis and
intervention. They believe that all autistcs want to be "cured".

I liked this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/04/04/sara.childers/index.html

I also found that this abstract interesting:

Dev Med Child Neurol. 2008 Mar 31 [Epub ahead of print] Links
Autism and diagnostic substitution: evidence from a study of adults
with a history of developmental language disorder.
Bishop DV, Whitehouse AJ, Watt HJ, Line EA.
Department of Experimental Psychology, University of Oxford, Oxford,
UK.
Rates of diagnosis of autism have risen since 1980, raising the
question of whether some children who previously had other diagnoses
are now being diagnosed with autism. We applied contemporary
diagnostic criteria for autism to adults with a history of
developmental language disorder, to discover whether diagnostic
substitution has taken place. A total of 38 adults (aged 15-31y; 31
males, seven females) who had participated in studies of developmental
language disorder during childhood were given the Autism Diagnostic
Observation Schedule - Generic. Their parents completed the Autism
Diagnostic Interview - Revised, which relies largely on symptoms
present at age 4 to 5 years to diagnose autism. Eight individuals met
criteria for autism on both instruments, and a further four met
criteria for milder forms of autistic spectrum disorder. Most
individuals with autism had been identified with pragmatic impairments
in childhood. Some children who would nowadays be diagnosed
unambiguously with autistic disorder had been diagnosed with
developmental language disorder in the past. This finding has
implications for our understanding of the epidemiology of autism.

Looks like there is evidence for diagnostic substitution.

I am deleting the breast implant group.
Terry Jones - 06 Apr 2008 16:18 GMT
>> You claim to be concerned about autism in children, yet apparently
>> don't want anything to do with autistic adults.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>broadening of the spectrum, and better/earlier diagnosis and
>intervention. They believe that all autistcs want to be "cured".

As far as professionals are concerned, I'm sure there's more funding
for research into autism in children (the "heartstring effect") - But
I also suspect that both dogmatic professionals and lay "cultists"
tend to be averse to those who can credibly speak up for themselves,
and ask "difficult" questions about their claims and theories.

(Although it's also true, as you say, that the "epidemic" claim is
unsupportable, as long as the past figures which are used for
comparison are not adjusted to reflect the current diagnostic
criteria, and back-corrected to include late diagnosed adults.)

Signature

Terry

D. C. Sessions - 06 Apr 2008 17:24 GMT
> As far as professionals are concerned, I'm sure there's more funding
> for research into autism in children (the "heartstring effect") - But
> I also suspect that both dogmatic professionals and lay "cultists"
> tend to be averse to those who can credibly speak up for themselves,
> and ask "difficult" questions about their claims and theories.

Totally OT, but thank you for being the first person I've
seen in months to use the word "averse" correctly.

| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" |
|    The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?"    |
+---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Terry Jones - 06 Apr 2008 19:29 GMT
>Totally OT, but thank you for being the first person I've
>seen in months to use the word "averse" correctly.

I've not come across that one, but using "refuted" when they mean
simply "denied" seems quite common, even on the BBC
Signature


Terry

The Autist formerly known as - 07 Apr 2008 00:09 GMT
Should I in adversity advertise my adversity as your nemisarial adversary or
should I aver to your aversion to averseveration and severance severally,
Roman emporors notwithstanding.

Your reverent and verseverant versiversial servant

Signature

þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"

> Totally OT, but thank you for being the first person I've
> seen in months to use the word "averse" correctly.
>
> | The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" |
> |    The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?"    |
> +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
The Autist formerly known as - 07 Apr 2008 00:00 GMT
I am not sure if I even believe in the existance of adults, I have yet to
find one :)

Signature

þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"

On Apr 6, 5:17 am, Terry Jones <terryjo...@beeb.net> wrote:

Some people do not believe in the existence of autistic adults.
Terry Jones - 07 Apr 2008 00:23 GMT
>>"Mark Probert" <mark.probert@gmail.com> wrote
>>
>>Some people do not believe in the existence of autistic adults.
>
>I am not sure if I even believe in the existance of adults, I have yet to
>find one :)

Victor said he was mature, but was often seen wandering around in a
mini-skirt, thus casting some doubt on that claim.
Signature


Terry

The Autist formerly known as - 07 Apr 2008 00:47 GMT
Well Charlton "legs" Heston will be swinging low on that chariot no more
either.

Signature

þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"

> Victor said he was mature, but was often seen wandering around in a
> mini-skirt, thus casting some doubt on that claim.
Jan Drew - 07 Apr 2008 03:58 GMT
On Apr 6, 5:17 am, Terry Jones <terryjo...@beeb.net> wrote:

> You claim to be concerned about autism in children, yet apparently
> don't want anything to do with autistic adults.
>
> Why is that?

Some people do not believe in the existence of autistic adults. These
are the people who claim that Thimerosal is the cause of the so-called
autism epidemic, and deny the existence of diagnostic re-assignment,
broadening of the spectrum, and better/earlier diagnosis and
intervention. They believe that all autistcs want to be "cured".

They do?  Care to prove that and who?

I liked this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/04/04/sara.childers/index.html

I also found that this abstract interesting:

Dev Med Child Neurol. 2008 Mar 31 [Epub ahead of print] Links
Autism and diagnostic substitution: evidence from a study of adults
with a history of developmental language disorder.
Bishop DV, Whitehouse AJ, Watt HJ, Line EA.
Department of Experimental Psychology, University of Oxford, Oxford,
UK.
Rates of diagnosis of autism have risen since 1980, raising the
question of whether some children who previously had other diagnoses
are now being diagnosed with autism. We applied contemporary
diagnostic criteria for autism to adults with a history of
developmental language disorder, to discover whether diagnostic
substitution has taken place. A total of 38 adults (aged 15-31y; 31
males, seven females) who had participated in studies of developmental
language disorder during childhood were given the Autism Diagnostic
Observation Schedule - Generic. Their parents completed the Autism
Diagnostic Interview - Revised, which relies largely on symptoms
present at age 4 to 5 years to diagnose autism. Eight individuals met
criteria for autism on both instruments, and a further four met
criteria for milder forms of autistic spectrum disorder. Most
individuals with autism had been identified with pragmatic impairments
in childhood. Some children who would nowadays be diagnosed
unambiguously with autistic disorder had been diagnosed with
developmental language disorder in the past. This finding has
implications for our understanding of the epidemiology of autism.

Looks like there is evidence for diagnostic substitution.

Uh huh and looks like you are once again defending thimerosal, and the
methods Jenny
found to be successful.

I am deleting the breast implant group.

And I am restoring it.
Arak - 07 Apr 2008 16:46 GMT
> Some people do not believe in the existence of autistic adults.

Um...what do kids become after they turn 18?  Adults.

Honestly... Do they think autistics just fall off the face of the
earth after 18 or get magically *cured*?

(If so, I want to complain to the management - I neither fell off the
earth, nor did I get magically cured.  I want my money back...)

> These
> are the people who claim that Thimerosal is the cause of the so-called
> autism epidemic, and deny the existence of diagnostic re-assignment,
> broadening of the spectrum, and better/earlier diagnosis and
> intervention. They believe that all autistcs want to be "cured".

Oh, for the love of Pete.  How many more times does this
unscientifically proven argument have to get thrown around?

Karen McCarron killed her 3 year old daughter because she believed
vaccines caused her autism.

Two other children have died from quack chelation treatments because
of the same unproven myth.

This isn't just some benign or harmless crack theory to add to the
pile; it's one that has caused the deaths of autistics.

What of those of us who never had a MMR vaccine? (I didn't get mine
until I was 14 and by then, I was already long since autistic)

What of those of us who have autism in the family (genetics)?

What of those of us who have never been closely exposed to mercury?

There are just way too many fallacies with this argument to take it
seriously. This argument is unfounded at best, lethal at worst.

Just my thoughts.

Arak /|\
D. C. Sessions - 08 Apr 2008 02:39 GMT
>> Some people do not believe in the existence of autistic adults.
>
> Um...what do kids become after they turn 18?  Adults.
>
> Honestly... Do they think autistics just fall off the face of the
> earth after 18 or get magically *cured*?

Yup.  Same as happened to adults who had been ADHD kids.
Once they grew up, it turned into a character flaw.  Best
solution seems to be to kick them around until they end
up either living in a cardboard box or in prison.

>> These
>> are the people who claim that Thimerosal is the cause of the so-called
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> What of those of us who never had a MMR vaccine? (I didn't get mine
> until I was 14 and by then, I was already long since autistic)

You're not useful.

> What of those of us who have autism in the family (genetics)?

You don't exist.

> What of those of us who have never been closely exposed to mercury?

You're both useless and nonexistent.

| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" |
|    The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?"    |
+---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Jan Drew - 07 Apr 2008 03:53 GMT
>>Not surprised that this thread would turn into to a personal trashing.
>>Sad that.
>
> Not surprised (based on past performance) that you would once again
> avoid answering the point that was being made.

The only point you made was to try and personally trash me.

> But it's not "personal", I don't know you from Adam, all I know is
> your behaviour when you post to this group.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> productively involved in the group, you just keep on posting your
> claims - again and again.

My claims? My behavior?  For posting Aurism Awareness Day?
Unreal.

> You claim to be concerned about autism in children, yet apparently
> don't want anything to do with autistic adults.
>
> Why is that?

Where on earth are you coming from?  I have not a clue as to why you would
think that.
Certainly, not from anything I have posted.
OTOH, Bob called:

* Jenny McCarthy is just a tart who uses her child as a meal ticket.*
Those kinds of remarks are not only cruel, but totally unnecessary.
Not worthy of a reply.
 
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