Medical Forum / General / Alternative / March 2008
Autism: Mysteries and Complications
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Myrl - 17 Mar 2008 16:23 GMT Mysteries and Complications Autism is everywhere--once again. Separating fact from fear as the courts and Hollywood wade in.
Claudia Kalb NEWSWEEK Updated: 11:53 AM ET Mar 15, 2008 You wonder what he thinks. The little boy who flaps his arms and bangs his head. Who bristles at the touch of wool and covers his ears when balloons go "pop!" The boy who doesn't respond to his name and will never say "I love you." What does he think of the world outside? The busy world of childhood vaccines, celebrity fund-raising and genetic research. The cauldron of medicine, media, politics and the law. What does he think of autism?
For that matter, what are we to think? Passions about autism are running higher than ever, and for good reason. Autism spectrum disorders affect one in 150 kids from all walks of life, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, a tenfold jump in just the past decade. As the numbers grow, public awareness increases and the fervor surrounding each new development intensifies.
Earlier this month, after the federal government said vaccines aggravated an underlying disorder that led to autism-like symptoms in 9-year-old Hannah Poling, the longstanding controversy over the role of childhood vaccines flared anew on network newscasts, the Internet and talk radio. The culture of autism is hitting prime time, too. Next week HBO will air "Autism: The Musical," a documentary about five children with autism who perform in their own show. A week later, Sundance Channel will broadcast "Autism Every Day," a film laying out the challenges faced by families. April 2 marks the first World Autism Awareness Day, a global effort voted into existence by the U.N. General Assembly. Less than two weeks after that, Jon Stewart will host an autism fund-raiser at New York's Beacon Theater, to be aired live on Comedy Central. Among the glittery lineup: Tina Fey, Stephen Colbert and Conan O'Brien.
Despite its high profile, however, autism is one of the most complicated neurological disorders known. Some of the people on "the spectrum" attend college; others never speak an intelligible word. Its complexity, in fact, is what has fueled the ongoing vaccine debate and caused divisions within the "autism community." Unlike most conditions that attract popular and celebrity support--breast cancer, AIDS--autism is almost a complete mystery, with no known cause. The vacuum created by this lack of knowledge has been filled with the theories, worries and frustrations of desperate parents. It's hard not to want something, or somebody, to blame. But now, as the spotlight glares again, it's time to separate fact from fear, to strive for perspective and clarity over emotion, to define the true scope of the disorder.
For decades, researchers have been trying to pinpoint a cause for autism. In the 1950s, clinicians blamed "refrigerator mothers" and their cold, uncaring parenting. More recently, the furor has swirled largely around childhood vaccines. In 1998, a controversial British study, later retracted by most of its authors, suggested a possible link between autism and the MMR vaccine, which then contained thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative. Starting in 2001, thimerosal was removed from almost every childhood inoculation (some flu shots still contain it), and the weight of scientific evidence has found no connection between autism and the preservative. Today, scientists believe that genes (the disorder runs in families) and environmental factors, which could be anything from pesticides to antibodies in a mother's womb, both play a role. But some parents continue to believe their children were injured by modern medicine. Sen. John McCain lent his voice to their cause recently when he said "there's strong evidence" that autism is connected to "a preservative in vaccines." That, and this month's ruling in the Poling case--which was one of thousands yet to be decided by a federal "vaccine court"--have given new fodder to the debate. In a CNN "quick vote" conducted after the news broke, 58 percent of respondents said they believe there's a connection between childhood vaccines and autism.
But the court case wasn't that simple. It turned out that Hannah had a rare mitochondrial disorder. Rather than support the thimerosal hypothesis, the decision endorses a whole other field of research into the causes of autism. It's possible, scientists say, that a challenge to the immune system--be it an infection, a vaccine or some other trigger--could stress already fragile cells and exacerbate the problem. Scientists want to know how many children with autism have mitochondrial disorders. And would it be possible to identify those who might be vulnerable to vaccines? "This case is a call to action to continue to understand this very complex disorder," says Geraldine Dawson of the advocacy group Autism Speaks.
To appreciate the complexity of the condition, all you have to do is look at the extraordinary range of people who fall under the umbrella diagnosis of autism spectrum disorders. At one end are kids like Charlie Fisher. At 10, he's unable to read and can speak only short sentences. For two years, he head-banged several times a day, says his mother, Kristina Chew, who writes a blog called autismvox.com. Chew believes that vaccines had nothing to do with her son's condition and she worries that all the vaccine attention detracts from the more- urgent needs of people with autism, who require intensive behavioral interventions and social services--the kind of help her son has received. Today, Charlie is doing much better, even learning to surf, but he is still "profoundly different" from other children, says Chew. "There are some things that maybe he can change and other things I hope people can come to accept."
On the other end: Ari Ne'eman, president of the Autistic Self-Advocacy Net work and a 20-year-old university student. Ne'eman was diagnosed at 12 with Asperger's syndrome, a high-functioning subgroup of the spectrum. Exceedingly articulate, Ne'eman says he has never struggled with speech, but he has always had difficulty understanding nonverbal forms of communication, like sarcasm. He also flaps his hands occasionally and he can't stand the feel of certain fabrics, especially velvet.
With the vast range in abilities comes a striking diversity in thinking, too. Over the years, the autism community has divided into camps, often with conflicting ideas about how to view and treat the disorder. Elizabeth Horn, president of the Autism Recovery Consortium, believes vaccines may play a role. Kids "slip away after getting these shots," she says. Horn, whose daughter, Sophia, has autism, believes children on the spectrum are sick, but can recover with help. Sophia, 12, is on a special diet, avoiding artificial colors and chemicals, and she takes supplements like magnesium and vitamin D. Ne'eman, on the other hand, believes in neurodiversity, the idea that differences in human behavior should be celebrated, not fixed. People with autism should be called "autistic people," he says, not "people with autism," the language favored by mainstream advocacy groups. "Our feeling is that the autism spectrum is an intrinsic part of our personality that cannot be separated," says Ne'eman. And he worries about research that might one day locate genes and other markers that could help doctors test for autism. Researchers say such knowledge would allow them to intervene early, during a critical window of development in the first year of life. Ne'eman's fear? That autism will become like Down syndrome--essentially selected out of the population.
It's a provocative idea. But the ultimate goal of the researchers, and the many families who support their work, is to solve the mystery of autism. Clarity is what we need, and science is the way we'll get there.
URL: http://www.newsweek.com/id/123474
D. C. Sessions - 17 Mar 2008 16:44 GMT > For decades, researchers have been trying to pinpoint a cause for > autism. In the 1950s, clinicians blamed "refrigerator mothers" and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > link between autism and the MMR vaccine, which then contained > thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative. Actually, no. Wakefield blamed the live viruses in the MMR. However, MMR has *never* had mercury. The thimerosol flames are a separate matter, although following Wakefield's original publication a lot of the anti-vaccination crowd blamed the mercury in MMR for his claimed findings.
A bit of egg on face for them, never retracted.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Myrl - 17 Mar 2008 20:17 GMT > In message <59954f1c-9e8b-4738-ad19-355446354...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Myrl wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ I've noticed that whent the anti-vac folks can't pound the square peg into the round hole, they simply turn the peg and keep trying - yet, the result is the same!
Myrl http://www.webstarmagic.com/wisletter.htm
drceephd@insightbb.com - 17 Mar 2008 21:58 GMT > I've noticed that whent the anti-vac folks can't pound the square peg > into the round hole, they simply turn the peg and keep trying - yet, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > - Show quoted text - There is no mystery to autism. There are a lot of complications. Just follow the money trail for the correct answer.
Autism is caused by vaccines, both the number injected and the contents. The result is that the developing brain and nervous system of the fetus and infant cannot handle all the filth and poisons. This is scientifically valid to the scientists.
Austism has an unknown cause. All the MDs whose image and money depend upon that statement will agree. All the pediatricians agree. All the money hungry pharma firms agree. Even the Institute of Medicine has decreed that no more money will be forthcoming to prove that vaccines cause autism.
Where is the money? The scientists don't have it. The scientists won't get any.
Consider Big Pharma. Billions to be made. Consider the pediatricians. More billions to be made. Consider the psychiatrists. More billions to be made teaching these mercury and aluminum poisoned kids how to adjust to their poison brains. Consider the social workers. More billions to be made helping the families adjust to the violent and unconrollable children.
Yep, the money trail tells it all. Bring us your pregnant women. Bring us your infants. You can then suffer while we make billions.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
Myrl - 17 Mar 2008 22:13 GMT On Mar 17, 1:58 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> > I've noticed that whent the anti-vac folks can't pound the square peg > > into the round hole, they simply turn the peg and keep trying - yet, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > DrCee > You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. While I tend to agree that a "money trail" can often lead to suspicion when it comes to motivation for certain agendas in the health industry, it is also important to note the "money trail" sword cuts both ways for conventional as well as alternative medicine. And certainly offers NO PROOF of the FACTS surrounding autism and it's causes.
There is plenty of documentation where anti-vac folks have blamed one thing or another about vaccines to be the cause of autism. But, when confronted with the continued increase in incidence of autism even though certain components in vaccines are removed, or didn't exist at all, they tap dance to another facet of the same argument, which likely is just as bogus.
From a health consumer point of view, I will admit that I think giving an infant multiple jabs of vaccines in one appointment should be reconsidered. I would also be just as happy to see any Mercury, or other toxic components removed from vaccines, which may be suspect.
That being said, there is no argument that vaccines have saved millions and millions of lives.
Myrl http://www.webstarmagic.com/wisletter.htm
drceephd@insightbb.com - 17 Mar 2008 23:21 GMT > That being said, there is no argument that vaccines have saved > millions and millions of lives. > > Myrlhttp://www.webstarmagic.com/wisletter.htm- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - "There is no argument that vaccines have saved millions and millions of lives."
What a load of bullocks. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
The vaccines have sickened and killed millions. It is the allopaths's and their false medical beliefs that have killed more millions. Smallpox and cholera are prime examples of how the gods of medicine can and will kill humans by the hundreds of thousands.
Vaccines are not safe. The mercury, the aluminum, the formaldehyde, the "viral particles", etc sicken, weaken the immune system, and give some cancers ( even our vetrenarians agree that cats and dogs are getting cancer from their vaccines.)
I, will take the next step. Not only are vaccines not safe....they are not effective.
You cannot prevent a vital body from providing health to the individual. Disease, really, dis-ease, is the body's way of detoxing and eliminating inheirent filth in order to provide better health and a longer life. Why in the hell would any sane person try and innoculate against health? Do you really think that voodoo medicine, you know, eye of neut, hair of frog, pus from monkey kideys,etc, will protect you from anything?
Get your understanding of what health and dis-ease really is and you will arrive at the ultimate truth. Just do not confuse it with trauma medicine which is usually beneficial, and only rarely fatal.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
Myrl - 18 Mar 2008 00:24 GMT On Mar 17, 3:21 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> > That being said, there is no argument that vaccines have saved > > millions and millions of lives. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > DrCee > You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons. Dr. Cee - I won't try to convince you against your will! However, I've shuffled across this planet long enough, that in my lifetime I've watched Polio, Mumps, Measles, Chicken Pox, Whooping Cough, Diptheria, all but disappear from mankind, due to vaccines.
Only, when the the anti-vac folks came out with their original vaccine scare tactics, linking vaccines to Autism during the late 1990s, did we once again see an almost immediate spike up with Measles.
You are free to believe what you want, and if you choose to shuffle around unvaccinated that is your business. . .Unfortunately any children in your charge, who are left unprotected, I worry about!
drceephd@insightbb.com - 18 Mar 2008 03:09 GMT > On Mar 17, 3:21 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > watched Polio, Mumps, Measles, Chicken Pox, Whooping Cough, Diptheria, > all but disappear from mankind, due to vaccines. I agree that we have seen a decrease in polio, mumps,etc due to better hygiene, sanitation, and nutrition.
To claim that this decrease is due to vaccines is scientifically ludicrous. You have absolutely no evidence or proof for that statement. I will stake my 15 odd years of scientific education against all your years of ignorance, indoctrination, and brainwashing that I am correct. Furhermore, I will not only stake my life upon the truth, I will bet my children's health and my grand-children's health, and lives upon the scientific truth.
> Only, when the the anti-vac folks came out with their original vaccine > scare tactics, linking vaccines to Autism during the late 1990s, did [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - Show quoted text - When you control all the rules of the game, what else can you expect? No, no you did not have polio, it was asceptic meningitis. Oh no, you did not have measles, it was chickenpox. Oh no, you did not have chickenpox it was measles.
Explain to us why the diagnosis of polio was changed from paralysis within 48 hrs to over 2 months? Why was at least two physical exams required after the introduction of the vaccine? Why did polio diagnosis decline while asceptic meningitis increased to make up the difference? Where did all the iron lungs go? Why aren't current polio victims being placed in iron lungs?
Modern medicine is a game of "heads you lose, tails I win."
Them that has the gold, makes the rules.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
Myrl - 18 Mar 2008 03:26 GMT On Mar 17, 7:09 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> > On Mar 17, 3:21 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Here's the thing Dr. Cee - If your theory that diseases were entirely caused by lack of hygene, we would hot have immediately seen a drop in disease with the advent of each and every vaccine. For example, when the Polio vaccine came out, we saw a dramatic decrease in the incidence of Polio, but because hygene wasn't the culprit for the disease, we continued to have Measles, Mumps, Whooping Cough, etc.
Then, as we progressed on into the following decades, with each new vaccine, the ensuing decline of each disease which the vaccine protected against.
Hygene is important - but vaccines, do and have saved millions and millions of lives.
Myrl http://www.webstarmagic.com/wisletter.htm
drceephd@insightbb.com - 18 Mar 2008 03:33 GMT > On Mar 17, 7:09 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Show me your proof Myrl. You have shown no data, no graphs, no scientifically backed up data at all.
All the data, all the graphs, show and amply demonstrate that the vaccines had NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the decline of so called infectious diseases.
You still have not answered my questions concerning polio. Due try and answer with some verifiable data. For example, why did cases of reported asceptic menigitis increase while reported cases of polio decreased, yet the total number of sick children remained constant?
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore heath with pus or poisons.
D. C. Sessions - 18 Mar 2008 03:55 GMT > All the data, all the graphs, show and amply demonstrate that the > vaccines had NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the decline of so called > infectious diseases. Then it should be a piece of cake for you to find *one* example where the introduction of mass vaccination _wasn't_ followed by a major drop in the targeted disease.
Oh, that's right -- you're running away from that one. Nine disease, scores of countries, and you can't find a single one. Isn't that an utterly AMAZING bit of coincidence? Surely Martian mathematics are capable of calculating the odds of such a rare set of events happening purely by chance.
Or not.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drceephd@insightbb.com - 18 Mar 2008 15:33 GMT How about these articles?
The revolt started in England. In the late 19th century, England was jailing an average of 2000 parents a year for refusal to vaccinate themselves and their children. Property seizure and prosecution were commonplace for refusal to participate in vaccination programs. The battle was a political one. The people started to win when a number of leading scientists went public with the truth about these vaccination programs. Doctor Edgar Crookshank Professor of Biology at Kings College led the charge against mandatory vaccination programs with his book "The history and Pathology of Vaccination." Other leading scientists of his generation soon jumped on the bandwagon. They demonstrated the scientific poverty of the entire vaccination concept. The revolt was successful. Within twenty years mandatory smallpox vaccination laws in England were repealed. In 1919 the death rate from smallpox promptly plummeted to a total of 28 deaths in a population of almost 40,000,000 people. Previously, with mandatory vaccinations they had averaged over 44,000 deaths from smallpox.
Please note the "death rate from smallpox promptly plummeted..." Eat some sh.t, DC.
Meanwhile at the same time in the Philippine Islands, with a population of 10,000,000, a compulsory smallpox vaccination program administered by the US government produced over 47,000 deaths from smallpox. Over the entire ten year span of the vaccination program mandated by the US government in the Philippines 25,000,000 vaccinations were forced on a population of 10,000,000 people in a series of three per person. This produced 170,000 cases of smallpox of which 75,000 were fatal.
Then we have the CDC weighing in with:
The Center for Disease control in their Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, July 20, 1999, 48:621-628 stated that improvements in water quality, sanitation and hygiene were the most important factors in the improvement of health and the control of infectious disease. Vaccines were not even considered to be among the factors.
And the comments by these scientists:
Scientist's John and Sonia McKinlay show the same thing in their research. In fact they were able to quantize these findings. They stated that 97% of the increase in life span since the beginning of the twentieth century is due to the enormous improvements in sanitation of food, water and environment.
Then again, why would these people lie about infectious disease:
World Health statistics Annual 1973-1976 Volume II also attributes the vanishing of infectious disease to improved standards of cleanliness in our food, water and environment.
It seems very clear that the spread of infectious diseases and diseases of all kinds depends upon a brainwashed doc with a hypodermic syringe in his pocket. And we actually pay them to sicken and kill us!!
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
D. C. Sessions - 18 Mar 2008 16:09 GMT > How about these articles? Still working on the 19th century stuff and avoiding the question, I see:
Nine diseases. Scores of countries. Ten years before and after. All you need is one example where the rate of the disease didn't drop significantly when mass vaccination was introduced.
Instead, Chuckles keeps trying to change the subject.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Myrl - 18 Mar 2008 16:52 GMT > Still working on the 19th century stuff and avoiding the > question, I see: No, if he's still working on 19th century stuff, he's probably trying to get up to speed.
D. C. Sessions - 18 Mar 2008 17:09 GMT >> Still working on the 19th century stuff and avoiding the >> question, I see: > > No, if he's still working on 19th century stuff, he's probably trying > to get up to speed. I should have been more specific: EARLY 19th century stuff. I do agree that even that is probably a strain.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drceephd@insightbb.com - 18 Mar 2008 17:32 GMT > In message <66fbd7f4-44f7-470e-a4b9-7a78f0a05...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, Myrl wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ Since when is 1999 19th century stuff? You pharma shills sure know how to spin a web of lies and ignore the facts.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
Myrl - 18 Mar 2008 18:14 GMT On Mar 18, 9:32 am, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> Since when is 1999 19th century stuff? > You pharma shills sure know how to spin a web of lies and ignore the > facts. > > DrCee Considering it was 2001 when themerisol was taken out childhood vaccines, and the incidence of autism continued to spike in spite of the removal, the anti-vac folks, who frightened much of the public, were pretty much proven wrong.
Also, at the end of the 19th century, because many parents believed what was told them about the vaccine/autism link, they didn't protect their children, and the incidence of Measles again began to spike!
drceephd@insightbb.com - 18 Mar 2008 21:02 GMT > On Mar 18, 9:32 am, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the removal, the anti-vac folks, who frightened much of the public, > were pretty much proven wrong. Uhmm, Myrl, calm down and get your idiotic facts in order. In my answer above the CDC reply was dated 1999, not 1899.
In 2001, the thimerosal level was REDUCED, not taken out. Secondly, all existing vaccines containing thimerosal were allowed to be used until gone. Thirdly, many vaccines still contain thimerosal. And lastly, the parents had to request thimerosal reduced vaccines, provided the blood poisoning pediatricians had them in stock and would use them.
The continuation of the autism epidemic is proof that mercury alone may not be the only cause in autism. Remember, the scientific data proves that mercury in combination with aluminum is 100x as toxic and fatal. Also, aluminum has its own toxicty level when humans are exposed to the stuff. Hg causes neurotoxicity. Al causes nerurotoxicity, Diptheria toxoid causes brain swelling and severe migranes in the infants. MMR can cause enteritis where there should not be any disease.
Yep, vaccines have something for every kid.
Keep in mind that pregnant moms are now being encouraged to get up to two flu shots containing thimerosal and even Rhogam. It is known and well proven in the scientific literature that the fetus will be exposed to any mercury insults suffered by the mom, and these insults are expected to be magnified in the developing fetus. The mom has to watch what fish she eats ( methyl mercury from ingestion ) Who knows how much more mercury toxicity results from injected merury which is obviously 100 % absorbed.
Your lies and spin are not enough to pull the wool over my educated eyes.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
> Also, at the end of the 19th century, because many parents believed > what was told them about the vaccine/autism link, they didn't protect > their children, and the incidence of Measles again began to spike! Myrl - 18 Mar 2008 21:30 GMT On Mar 18, 1:02 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> > On Mar 18, 9:32 am, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The only person spinning Dr. Cee, is you! Who pays you to spin your "conclusions"???
And once again, how do you explain that when the anti-vac folks successfully persuaded many parents to not vaccinate their kids in the late 1990s, because of Themiresol-Autism concerns, that an immediate spike in Measles occurred? And how does that fact prove your germ theory as being the cause of childhood disease???
Myrl http://www.webstarmagic.com/wisletter.htm
D. C. Sessions - 18 Mar 2008 21:44 GMT > And once again, how do you explain that when the anti-vac folks > successfully persuaded many parents to not vaccinate their kids in the > late 1990s, because of Themiresol-Autism concerns, that an immediate > spike in Measles occurred? And how does that fact prove your germ > theory as being the cause of childhood disease??? He's so busy avoiding other issues that he hasn't got time for that one.
I think it's about time to let the cricket chirps out.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drceephd@insightbb.com - 18 Mar 2008 22:35 GMT > On Mar 18, 1:02 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > The only person spinning Dr. Cee, is you! Who pays you to spin your > "conclusions"??? Well, clearly, I am a scientist who is standing for the truth. Who do you think is paying me? Big pharma..LOL, the NIH, LOL, the CDC LOL. So just who would pay me to bring down big pharma and to expose the deceitful lies of modern allopathic medicine? Nice try pharma shill.
> And once again, how do you explain that when the anti-vac folks > successfully persuaded many parents to not vaccinate their kids in the > late 1990s, because of Themiresol-Autism concerns, that an immediate > spike in Measles occurred? How about a direct link to that data that I can research. Just who had a spike in measles, how many kids were involved, how many kids were previously vaccinated ( of couse none since they were vaccinated, correct? ).
And while you are at it, show us where the measles was hiding all those years and show us some scientifically valid data to confirm it. It would be very interesting to know where the measles hides. We could then make an effort to avoid the areas.
And how does that fact prove your germ
> theory as being the cause of childhood disease??? The science does not change nor lie. Only you, big pharma, and the medicos lie to protect their monopoly and their muderous ways.
> Myrlhttp://www.webstarmagic.com/wisletter.htm- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
D. C. Sessions - 18 Mar 2008 23:09 GMT > And while you are at it, show us where the measles was hiding all > those years and show us some scientifically valid data to confirm it. The Netherlands. Most of Africa. Big parts of Asia. Check the WHO's incidence reports; it's not hard to find measles in Africa since it's killing millions of kids each year.
Then again, since it's your thesis that measles is a normal bodily reaction to causes that have nothing to do with any carrier or reservoir, you should be able to induce it under controlled conditions.
Please tell us how.
> It would be very interesting to know where the measles hides. We > could then make an effort to avoid the areas. You can't avoid it because it comes to you via aircraft.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drceephd@insightbb.com - 19 Mar 2008 00:52 GMT > > It would be very interesting to know where the measles hides. We > > could then make an effort to avoid the areas. > > You can't avoid it because it comes to you via aircraft. So, you have no data to explain to us that the measles maybe hides in bathrooms, or buses, or trains, or farm animals? But you do suggest aircraft. Now that presents an interesting problem. Before 1900 there were no aircraft to hide in, so how was it spread? How many children today get the measles from riding in an aircraft?
Curious people would like to know.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
D. C. Sessions - 19 Mar 2008 01:26 GMT >> > It would be very interesting to know where the measles hides. We >> > could then make an effort to avoid the areas. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So, you have no data to explain to us that the measles maybe hides in > bathrooms, or buses, or trains, or farm animals? It "hides" in human populations. The math is simple. Its survival outside of a human body is quite short (about two hours), but it's transmitted from one human to another primarily by droplet transfer.
Like smallpox, there are no non-human hosts. Once it's gone, it's gone. At least until some idiot turns a preserved sample loose or builds one from sequenced genes.
> But you do suggest > aircraft. Now that presents an interesting problem. Before 1900 > there were no aircraft to hide in, so how was it spread? Person-to-person, sometimes intermediated by handled objects.
> How many > children today get the measles from riding in an aircraft? They don't have to ride in the aircraft, but the measles comes to them via others who do. Witness the recent outbreak in San Diego, which started with a child returning from Switzerland.
> Curious people would like to know. Curious people found out long ago. You, on the other hand, are merely trying to defend your own ignorance.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drceephd@insightbb.com - 19 Mar 2008 02:10 GMT > > So, you have no data to explain to us that the measles maybe hides in > > bathrooms, or buses, or trains, or farm animals? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > two hours), but it's transmitted from one human to another > primarily by droplet transfer. "Its survival outside of a human body is quite short."
If it is a virus, it is dead organic material outside of a cell, well before it is outside the human body.
How did you come up with the two hours? Any datum?
It is transferred by droplets. Again, any datum? ( assuming you may have even one data point. )
> Like smallpox, there are no non-human hosts. Once it's > gone, it's gone. Wait a minute, what happened to Jenner's cowpox theory? There are no non-human hosts? Any data to support that statement?
At least until some idiot turns a preserved
> sample loose or builds one from sequenced genes. Which could, of course, only be created in a lab and spread via the hypodermic syringe by mis-guided and deluded allopathic MDs.
> > But you do suggest > > aircraft. Now that presents an interesting problem. Before 1900 > > there were no aircraft to hide in, so how was it spread? > > Person-to-person, sometimes intermediated by handled objects. And of course you have data to prove the contention that a virus which dies within two hours could be transferred person-to person among a population that is 95% innoculated and therefore "protected"? Dang, and I thought arguing for Santa Claus was difficult.
> > How many > > children today get the measles from riding in an aircraft? > > They don't have to ride in the aircraft, but the measles comes > to them via others who do. Witness the recent outbreak in San > Diego, which started with a child returning from Switzerland. And your proof of this this is what? A child returning from Switzerland supposedly had the measles and caused an outbreak among a San Diego population that was 95% immunized? I think you need to recheck your argument. It would be more believeable if the kid was sick and unvaccinated and NO ONE else got the measles because they were immunized and protected.
> > Curious people would like to know. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
D. C. Sessions - 23 Mar 2008 01:44 GMT >> > So, you have no data to explain to us that the measles maybe hides in >> > bathrooms, or buses, or trains, or farm animals? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If it is a virus, it is dead organic material outside of a cell, well > before it is outside the human body. I'm sure semantic games impress you with how clever you are. "Survive" in the same sense that a seed (also "dead organic matter") can spend a limited amount of time in a hostile environment and still have a reasonable chance of ultimately producing more seeds.
Enough time in a hostile environment (dry, hot, sunlight, etc.) will damage organics and render them incapable of ultimately causing more of themselves.
> How did you come up with the two hours? Any datum? /Pathogen survival in the external environment and the evolution of virulence/ Walther and Ewald, Biological Reviews (2004) Volume 79.
> It is transferred by droplets. Again, any datum? ( assuming you may > have even one data point. ) Too many articles to count if you know how to use Google Scholar. Search terms are "measles droplet" -- there are even studies on the variation in infectivity versus droplet size. Or you can just grab the measles chapter of the pink book and have a look under "transmission" and check the citations: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/meas.pdf
>> Like smallpox, there are no non-human hosts. Once it's >> gone, it's gone. > > Wait a minute, what happened to Jenner's cowpox theory? > There are no non-human hosts? Any data to support that statement? Jenner reported the well-known cross-immunity of cowpox and smallpox. Smallpox itself doesn't seem to be able to infect non-human species. Likewise measles. Sort of like feline ear mites and humans.
> At least until some idiot turns a preserved >> sample loose or builds one from sequenced genes. > > Which could, of course, only be created in a lab and spread via the > hypodermic syringe by mis-guided and deluded allopathic MDs. Or via aerosol spray, and it doesn't take an MD to stuff a needle into someone you don't like. Or someone you do, for that matter. If some nutcase in an armpit country decides that the world was better off with smallpox, the sequence is out there and it won't be all that long before it's within the capabilities of a moderately well-funded lab. Any number of oil sultans will have enough money.
But you don't need to worry, since you don't believe in infection. By the way -- if the smallpox virus doesn't cause smallpox but you have all the answers, please describe the process for inducing smallpox. Should be pretty straightforward given how many billion cases there have been around the world throughout history.
>> > But you do suggest >> > aircraft. Now that presents an interesting problem. Before 1900 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > population that is 95% innoculated and therefore "protected"? Dang, > and I thought arguing for Santa Claus was difficult. The math is above your head. It even involves algebra.
>> > How many >> > children today get the measles from riding in an aircraft? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > sick and unvaccinated and NO ONE else got the measles because they > were immunized and protected. It doesn't take many, and the vaccine isn't perfect. Something like 90% effective, IIRC. So out of 100 kids in a grade, you would have maybe 15 susceptible. Infectious period lasts about four days, during which personal contact or shared-object contact will do the job. Each of the first-stage contacts pass it on a week later to a few more.
Even so the density of susceptible individuals is too low for the outbreak to sustain. It looks like the total for this one will run to twelve -- and each of them traceable back to the index case. Since you don't believe in transmissibility, you're welcome to explain those twelve some other way.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Mark Probert - 19 Mar 2008 12:16 GMT On Mar 18, 7:52 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> > > It would be very interesting to know where the measles hides. We > > > could then make an effort to avoid the areas. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Curious people would like to know. Zooooooooooooooooooom
That was DCS' point whizzing right by your butt.
Jan Drew - 20 Mar 2008 04:12 GMT > Zooooooooooooooooooom
>That was DCS' point whizzing right by your butt. Petey Bow-itch will be right along to KACHING, Mark S Probert for adding nothing to the discussion.
Eric Bohlman - 19 Mar 2008 06:13 GMT > The Netherlands. Most of Africa. Big parts of Asia. > Check the WHO's incidence reports; it's not hard to find > measles in Africa since it's killing millions of kids each > year. Not any more. Now it's down to less than 250,000 measles deaths worldwide (there were close to 900,000 only 9 years ago).
Note that the developing world hasn't experienced any abrupt advances in hygeine, sanitation, or nutrition in the last 9 years. There has, however, been a major v*cc*n*t**n initiative that was quite active during that period.
David Wright - 20 Mar 2008 04:05 GMT >> The Netherlands. Most of Africa. Big parts of Asia. >> Check the WHO's incidence reports; it's not hard to find [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >been a major v*cc*n*t**n initiative that was quite active during that >period. Cee already knows it doesn't work, and any numbers that suggest otherwise are frauds perpetrated by the Medical Establishment.
(The only numbers that aren't frauds are ones that support any idea that Cee likes.)
By the way, Eric, nice to see you here. It's been too long.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "Without Bush, what will America's schoolchildren have to look down on?" -- Bill Maher
Jan Drew - 20 Mar 2008 07:04 GMT Insulter and obsessed "David Wright" blathered:
>>> The Netherlands. Most of Africa. Big parts of Asia. >>> Check the WHO's incidence reports; it's not hard to find [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Cee That IS Dr. Cee to you.
Neither is he the subject.
Richard Schultz - 20 Mar 2008 21:54 GMT : That IS Dr. Cee to you. Do you honestly believe that he received a doctorate from an institution on Mars? ----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
D. C. Sessions - 20 Mar 2008 22:37 GMT > Do you honestly believe that he received a doctorate from an institution > on Mars? Rich, you're asking if "Jan ... honestly" -- the answer is "no."
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
David Wright - 21 Mar 2008 01:44 GMT >: That IS Dr. Cee to you. > >Do you honestly believe that he received a doctorate from an institution >on Mars? If Cee has a doctoral degree it's either from a diploma mill or he bought it from one of those fraudsters on the Internet.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "Without Bush, what will America's schoolchildren have to look down on?" -- Bill Maher
D. C. Sessions - 21 Mar 2008 01:53 GMT > If Cee has a doctoral degree it's either from a diploma mill or he > bought it from one of those fraudsters on the Internet. From his own statements here, his diploma came as part of a roll of rather flimsy paper.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
t - 21 Mar 2008 16:48 GMT >> If Cee has a doctoral degree it's either from a diploma mill or he >> bought it from one of those fraudsters on the Internet. > > From his own statements here, his diploma came as part of a > roll of rather flimsy paper. Do you mean like yours did?
Richard Schultz - 21 Mar 2008 14:43 GMT :>: That IS Dr. Cee to you. :> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : If Cee has a doctoral degree it's either from a diploma mill or he : bought it from one of those fraudsters on the Internet. I'm still waiting for *Jan Drew* to explain why *she* thinks that it's "Dr. Cee" to us.
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
The One True Zhen Jue - 21 Mar 2008 16:27 GMT > In article <NIqdnXcZ1vl5mX7anZ2dnUVZ_gWdn...@comcast.com>, David Wright <wri...@l1000.prodigy.net> wrote: > : In article <fruiud$un...@news.iucc.ac.il>, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'm still waiting for *Jan Drew* to explain why *she* thinks that > it's "Dr. Cee" to us. I'm still waiting for *Richard Schultz* to realize that Jan Drew doesn't think. Of course, he has a very difficult time with the obvious.
> ----- > Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il > Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel > Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University > ----- > "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience" t - 21 Mar 2008 16:47 GMT >>: That IS Dr. Cee to you. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- David Wright Oh David, > please please do provide proof of your statement. I bet you cannot. David Wright - 22 Mar 2008 01:43 GMT >>>: That IS Dr. Cee to you. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> -- David Wright
>Oh David, please please do provide proof of your statement. I bet you >cannot. He can't do basic arithmetic, tools. People like that do not get PhDs in chemistry. He claims to have one.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "Without Bush, what will America's schoolchildren have to look down on?" -- Bill Maher
Bee - 22 Mar 2008 05:49 GMT > He can't do basic arithmetic, tools. People like that do not get PhDs > in chemistry. He claims to have one. You claim to have one too. Why do you need proof for Dr. Cee, when you do not want to prove to anyone that you do?
David Wright - 22 Mar 2008 19:40 GMT >> He can't do basic arithmetic, tools. People like that do not get PhDs >> in chemistry. He claims to have one. >> >You claim to have one too. Why do you need proof for Dr. Cee, when >you do not want to prove to anyone that you do? I am merely pointing out that the evidence is overwhelming that he does *not* have the degrees he claims to.
If you want to claim the same about me, go ahead -- but explain your reasoning.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "Without Bush, what will America's schoolchildren have to look down on?" -- Bill Maher
Bee - 21 Mar 2008 20:28 GMT > If Cee has a doctoral degree it's either from a diploma mill or he > bought it from one of those fraudsters on the Internet. Heck, David, if you are going to go that route, no one here knows for sure if you have one, much less where it came from -- you are in the same column with Dr. Cee---actually no - in the same row with Dr.Cee - different columns Dr. Cee is in the "open minded" column, and you are in the "narrow minded" column.
Before you poke fun at him----poke fun at yourself while you are at it. He might say his diploma is from Mars---due to privacy----issues ---- I would say you are in the same situation --and I respect that -- no one has to "give up" what they do for a living, where they live or their employer. This is an entertainment newsgroup - an exercise of free expression, and by all means, if you are going to poke fun at Dr. Cee - I'm sure you won't mind the pay back of yourself, right?
David Wright - 22 Mar 2008 03:06 GMT >> If Cee has a doctoral degree it's either from a diploma mill or he >> bought it from one of those fraudsters on the Internet. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >same column with Dr. Cee---actually no - in the same row with Dr.Cee - >different columns Not exactly. He claims he has a PhD in chemistry, and he keeps making major mistakes about chemistry. He can't do simple arithmetic, and I've got news for you: you don't get a PhD in chemistry if you can't handle some pretty heavy math.
>Dr. Cee is in the "open minded" column, and you are in the "narrow >minded" column. Cee is in the nutball column. How do you feel about the idea that there is no such thing as infectious disease?
>Before you poke fun at him----poke fun at yourself while you are at >it. He might say his diploma is from Mars---due to privacy----issues [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >poke fun at Dr. Cee - I'm sure you won't mind the pay back of >yourself, right? Say whatever you like. I'll just point out that this "is an entertainment newsgroup." And you're not usually all that entertaining.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "Without Bush, what will America's schoolchildren have to look down on?" -- Bill Maher
D. C. Sessions - 22 Mar 2008 03:35 GMT > Not exactly. He claims he has a PhD in chemistry, and he keeps making > major mistakes about chemistry. He can't do simple arithmetic, and > I've got news for you: you don't get a PhD in chemistry if you can't > handle some pretty heavy math. I hate to break it to you, but even high-school chemistry requires that one be able to keep track of integers.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
David Wright - 22 Mar 2008 03:59 GMT >> Not exactly. He claims he has a PhD in chemistry, and he keeps making >> major mistakes about chemistry. He can't do simple arithmetic, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I hate to break it to you, but even high-school chemistry >requires that one be able to keep track of integers. I'm aware of that, and Cee can't handle them either. Actually, my high school chem class was so totally worthless that I learned essentially nothing in an entire year. Well, it made introductory chem in college a bit more interesting.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "Without Bush, what will America's schoolchildren have to look down on?" -- Bill Maher
Bee - 22 Mar 2008 05:50 GMT > Say whatever you like. I'll just point out that this "is an > entertainment newsgroup." And you're not usually all that > entertaining. Oh, you hurt my feelings...NOT.
D. C. Sessions - 18 Mar 2008 18:40 GMT >> In message <66fbd7f4-44f7-470e-a4b9-7a78f0a05...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, Myrl wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> I should have been more specific: EARLY 19th century stuff. >> I do agree that even that is probably a strain.
> Since when is 1999 19th century stuff? Your 1999 cite was a simple reference to the uncontested statement that sanitation is beneficial to public health. (Which, as Myrl points out, is contrary to your religion anyway.)
> You pharma shills sure know how to spin a web of lies and ignore the > facts. It did not, at all, address the challenge before you: show that vaccination does not prevent the diseases in question.
To recapitulate, from <ujoqa5-do.ln1@news.lumbercartel.com>:
> Now, I don't want to stress your rather limited research > skills so I'll make this easy: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Even for you.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Mark Probert - 18 Mar 2008 22:35 GMT On Mar 18, 12:32 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> > In message <66fbd7f4-44f7-470e-a4b9-7a78f0a05...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, Myrl wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > You pharma shills sure know how to spin a web of lies and ignore the > facts. You still did not address DCS's point. Name one disease that did not show a dramatic drop after the introduction of vaccinations.
Just one will do.
Go ahead.
What are you waiting for?
D. C. Sessions - 18 Mar 2008 03:45 GMT > I agree that we have seen a decrease in polio, mumps,etc due to better > hygiene, sanitation, and nutrition. That's really very interesting. So you're telling us that there was a dramatic change across the United States in the mid-60s in "hygiene, sanitation, and nutrition" that caused the disappearance of measles in the course of less than four years.
Somehow, amazingly, the poorest village in Latin America has *better* "hygiene, sanitation, and nutrition" today than the United States did in 1963. Wow.
> To claim that this decrease is due to vaccines is scientifically > ludicrous. You have absolutely no evidence or proof for that > statement. Well, none that can get past your "NYAH! NYAH! NYAH! I can't HEAR you!" defense. Then again, you also insist that the Blackfoot were wiped out suddenly in the summer of 1837 due to their intensive agricultural depletion of the soil.
> I will stake my 15 odd years of scientific education The part that came from Mars of the part that came from Uranus?
> against all your years of ignorance, indoctrination, and brainwashing > that I am correct. ... with the proviso in advance that there is absolutely nothing in the Universe that could change your mind.
> Furhermore, I will not only stake my life upon the > truth, I will bet my children's health and my grand-children's health, > and lives upon the scientific truth. Total bull. A meaningless exercise in blather, dishonest from the get-go and without the least shred of sincerity. As you have made completely clear for many years here.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
D. C. Sessions - 18 Mar 2008 03:52 GMT > Why did polio > diagnosis decline while asceptic meningitis increased to make up the > difference? So your thesis is that the per-capita sum of (polio+aseptic meningitis) remained constant from (let's say) 1944 to 1964?
I'd say "let's make this interesting" but I only wager with honest people.
> Where did all the iron lungs go? Mostly to the scrap yard, with a few in museums.
> Why aren't current > polio victims being placed in iron lungs? Because there aren't any current polio victims in the United States.
Of course, according to you they're called "aseptic meningitis" victims and somehow the name change makes it possible for them to breathe without assistance.
Well, you're the one who believes in magic.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
David Wright - 18 Mar 2008 05:04 GMT >> On Mar 17, 3:21 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >I agree that we have seen a decrease in polio, mumps,etc due to better >hygiene, sanitation, and nutrition. Why would hygiene or sanitation have anything to do with it?
After all, according to Cee, germs don't cause disease, so what's the harm in poor sanitation or poor hygiene? Indeed, one might reasonably ask what the *meaning* of those terms is in the absence of disease- causing organisms.
One might ask Cee, of course, but one would receive no answer, because there is no answer that isn't obvious nonsense.
The other thing that Cee can't explain is why the drop in measles, mumps, polio, etc was so rapid after the introduction of the vaccine. He certainly can't point to some revolution in sanitation, hygiene, or nutrition over such a short time that would make this radial difference.
>To claim that this decrease is due to vaccines is scientifically >ludicrous. You have absolutely no evidence or proof for that >statement. I will stake my 15 odd years of scientific education >against all your years of ignorance, indoctrination, and brainwashing >that I am correct. I would bet that what you know of science is indeed odd, but the idea that you have "15 years of scientific education" is so ludicrous as to be beyond comical. You can't do simple arithmetic, Cee, as you are so fond of demonstrating to the audience.
>Furhermore, I will not only stake my life upon the >truth, I will bet my children's health and my grand-children's health, >and lives upon the scientific truth. No, you're betting them on the orthopathic nonsense you try to pass off as revealed truth. The finest thing you could do for your putative offspring is to drop dead today so their parents would be free of your browbeating and could get them some proper medical care.
Your silly claim that polio was somehow disguised as aseptic meningitis falls to the ground over the unfortunate (for you) fact that paralysis is not one of the symptoms of aseptic meningitis.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "Without Bush, what will America's schoolchildren have to look down on?" -- Bill Maher
D. C. Sessions - 18 Mar 2008 12:34 GMT > Your silly claim that polio was somehow disguised as aseptic > meningitis falls to the ground over the unfortunate (for you) fact > that paralysis is not one of the symptoms of aseptic meningitis. Well, that and simple numbers. Back to his innumeracy again.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
David Wright - 19 Mar 2008 03:30 GMT >> Your silly claim that polio was somehow disguised as aseptic >> meningitis falls to the ground over the unfortunate (for you) fact >> that paralysis is not one of the symptoms of aseptic meningitis. > >Well, that and simple numbers. Back to his innumeracy again. Oh, at that point he just can pull out the ol' "the establishment is hiding the real numbers." I suppose they're hiding them in the same place they hide all the polio victims who can't breathe on their own.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at copper.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "Without Bush, what will America's schoolchildren have to look down on?" -- Bill Maher
Richard Schultz - 18 Mar 2008 06:35 GMT : I agree that we have seen a decrease in polio, mumps,etc due to better : hygiene, sanitation, and nutrition. Why is there no smallpox in areas where polio is still endemic?
: I will stake my 15 odd years of scientific education You have zero scientific education. This much is obvious to pretty much everyone.
----- Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University ----- "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"
D. C. Sessions - 23 Mar 2008 00:57 GMT > "There is no argument that vaccines have saved millions and millions > of lives." > > What a load of bullocks. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Then you won't have any trouble at all finding just ONE example from hundreds of combinations where mass vaccination didn't immediately precede a major drop in the disease it targeted for one of:
* polio * diphtheria * pertussis * tetanus * measles * mumps * rubella * Hib * HepB * Meningococcal disease
In a country where they've kept reasonably complete records for at least the ten years before and afterward. Then post them! Win instant fame!
Think of being the first to pull this off after I've been posting it since 20 July 1997. For some reason none of the other anti-vaccination posters before you has even tried. Strange, that -- just like you they all try to change the subject or just plain drop out of the newsgroup for a while.
Surely you're made of sterner stuff, Chuckles -- you can do it. Get pumped, work up your courage. You may have ducked out the last few times but this time you can GO ALL THE WAY!
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drceephd@insightbb.com - 24 Mar 2008 17:18 GMT > In message <28aab23e-978a-4a54-937f-67dea00e2...@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com>, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > for at least the ten years before and afterward. Then post > them! Win instant fame!
> -- > | The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ Go to vaclib.org and view their graphs of reported disease rates compared to vaccine introduction. Go to whateto and look at those graphs.
You will find that many cover the last 150 years not just a mere 20 years.
I hve provided you with the graphs and data that shows any vaccine to be wholly ineffective. Now show me similar graphs over the same time period where the vaccine did the trick. Keep in mind that during the polio epidemic the docs were paid $25 per reported case. As a result, the instance of reported aseptic meningitis ( a diagnostically similar disease ) went from 25,000 per year to zero. Are you refering this type of bogus resut?
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons
D. C. Sessions - 24 Mar 2008 18:05 GMT >> In message <28aab23e-978a-4a54-937f-67dea00e2...@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com>, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > compared to vaccine introduction. > Go to whateto and look at those graphs. I have, and there's nothing there that comes close.
Of course, you will insist that there is. Easy to prove. (Except that we both know that you're just trying to squirm out of the fact that you can't because it's not there.)
> You will find that many cover the last 150 years not just a mere 20 > years. As long as the records are complete, no problem. You're just agreeing with me that this should be easy, and yet you keep spending all your efforts on avoiding it. Hmmmm ...
> I hve provided you with the graphs and data that shows any vaccine to > be wholly ineffective. No, you have not. You haven't even given a simple pair of (disease, country) -- instead you just keep trying to change the subject.
Nine diseases, scores of countries, and you can't find one pair. Now isn't that just _fascinating_ !
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Jan Drew - 25 Mar 2008 04:53 GMT > In message > <c95d8d57-bc37-4ee7-91c7-02dd6a11f2db@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > I have, and there's nothing there that comes close. Blatant lie.
http://www.vaclib.org/
> Of course, you will insist that there is. Easy to prove. > (Except that we both know that you're just trying to squirm [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ D. C. Sessions - 24 Mar 2008 18:22 GMT > Now show me similar graphs over the same time period where the > vaccine did the trick. Sure thing, Chuckles:
(Measles, United States) Year Cases Deaths 1950 319,124 1951 530,118 1952 683,077 1953 449,146 1954 682,720 1955 555,156 1956 611,936 1957 486,799 1958 763,094 1959 406,162
1960 441,703 380 1961 423,919 434 1962 481,530 408 1963 385,156 364 1964 458,083 421 1965 261,904 276 1966 204,136 261 1967 62,705 81 1968 22,231 24 1969 25,826 41 1970 47,351 89 1971 75,290 90 1972 32,275 24 1973 26,690 23 1974 22,094 20 1975 24,374 20 1976 41,126 12 1977 57,345 15 1978 26,871 11 1979 13,597 6
See how easy it is? Sure looks like something happened right around 1966, doesn't it? But of course according to you that's just coincidence.
> Keep in mind that during the polio epidemic > the docs were paid $25 per reported case. As a result, the instance > of reported aseptic meningitis ( a diagnostically similar disease ) Well, except that it doesn't produce paralysis, has no GI symptoms, and a few other details. Since you don't believe that culture and serology are relevant to diagnosis anyway [1] there really isn't much point in bothering over the details.
So let's consider symptoms: what happened to all those people each year who couldn't breathe without assistance?
> went from 25,000 per year to zero. Are you refering this type of > bogus resut? (a) I can't find a primary source for this "25,000 cases of aseptic meningitis" claim. References, please. (Yeah, like that's going to happen.) (b) As I understand your claim, the sum of (polio plus aseptic meningitis) remained approximately constant through the 1950-1970 time period. Is this indeed what you are claiming?
[1] it's all just symptoms of the body purifying itself for better long term health, right? Maybe the body's "innate intelligence" Just Knows that life in a respirator is what someone really needs.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drceephd@insightbb.com - 26 Mar 2008 01:03 GMT > In message <c95d8d57-bc37-4ee7-91c7-02dd6a11f...@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Sure looks like something happened right around 1966, doesn't it? > But of course according to you that's just coincidence. Once again the Whaleto site is a valid source of information. Why did you not give credit where credit is due?
Consider that the death rate from measles had already declined by over 98% by 1960. Consider also that the first measles vaccine was not available until 1963. In looking at your numbers, 1964 had 73,000 more cases of measles than 1963. Of what value was your magic, injected filth?
1967 did show an anomoly. What could explain such a drop in incidence? The same reason that aseptic meningitis disappeared during the polio epidemic. The docs control the diagnosis and there is no one to say otherwise. The simplist way to diagnose is that if you have been immunized, the doc just chooses another of his 10,000 diseases to name your illness. This certainly makes immuniztion look like a winner doesn't it?
Going on, a new vaccine was introduced in 1979. You will notice that the measles rate in 1980 was 13,506 and later in 1981 it dropped to 3,124. Another big drop.
Yet, in '89 we had another measles "epidemic". In 89, there were 18,193 cases, in 1990 27,786 and then the rate again fell to 9643 in 91 and 2200 in 92. Now how do we explain this since 89% of those having measles were previously immunized?
> > Keep in mind that during the polio epidemic > > the docs were paid $25 per reported case. As a result, the instance [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that culture and serology are relevant to diagnosis anyway [1] > there really isn't much point in bothering over the details. From Miller's book you will find that data from the Morbidity and Mortality Reportable Diseases, The Los Angeles County Health Index reports that in July 1955 ( before the redefinition of polio ) there were 273 cases of polio and only50 cases of meningitis. In July of 1961, after the redefinition of polio, there were 65 cases of polio and 161 cases of meningitis. In Sept of 1966 there were 5 cases of polio and 256 cases of meningitis. Now, do you see a trend here?
> So let's consider symptoms: what happened to all those people > each year who couldn't breathe without assistance? The people were scared enough and a vaccine was available. There was no need for all the kids in iron lungs to frighten the parents. Get with the program. You want the sheeple to think that the vaccine is 100% effective. Kids in iron lungs would destroy the created image.
> > went from 25,000 per year to zero. Are you refering this type of > > bogus resut? > > (a) I can't find a primary source for this "25,000 cases of > aseptic meningitis" claim. References, please. > (Yeah, like that's going to happen.) I gave you my source for that data.
As a scientist, I sadly have to report that the most unreliable and worthless of data is medical data. Medical data is not scientific at all. It is subjective. One doctor and one opinion. If ten doctors examined the patient, ran similar tests, and came to a conclusion, there would likely be 10 different diagnoses.
DrCee You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.
Mark Probert - 26 Mar 2008 01:52 GMT On Mar 25, 8:03 pm, drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
> Once again the Whaleto site is a valid source of information. The whale.to website is the Internet's largest suppository of mis- information.
Mikey Adams, whose site used to be called NewsTurd, is fast catching up.
John had better get to work.
D. C. Sessions - 23 Mar 2008 01:08 GMT > You cannot prevent a vital body from providing health to the > individual. Money, mouth. Summer is coming and the Colorado Plateau has lots of prairie dog colonies and there are deer mice all over the place. You can do some old Navajos a big favor by cleaning out the mouse nests for them, and you can camp with the prairie dogs. Nothing but a few fleas to worry about.
> Disease, really, dis-ease, is the body's way of detoxing > and eliminating inheirent filth in order to provide better health and > a longer life. Remind me again what the prognosis is for rabies. *Great* way to promote a longer life, that one. Of you can do a personal demo with some fleas this summer.
> Why in the hell would any sane person try and > innoculate against health? That's apparently "health" of the six feet under variety.
Here's your chance, Chuckles, to put your money where your mouth is: get up close and personal with some yersinia pestis or some sin nombre dust.
According to your religion, it's perfectly safe. Sort of the orthopathic equivalent of snake handling.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Peter Bowditch - 18 Mar 2008 00:09 GMT >Autism is caused by vaccines |
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