Medical Forum / General / Alternative / March 2008
NO EVIDENCE OF HARM
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Mark Probert - 01 Mar 2008 04:08 GMT For an excellent analysis of the medical considerations regarding the recent decision by the US Government see:
http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=203
Kirby is wrong. Period.
Has the Government Conceded Vaccines Cause Autism?
No. But David Kirby and other anti-vaccinationist ideologues and members of the so-called mercury militia would like you to think so. For background, the Autism Omnibus refers to a set of hearings before the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program regarding claims by about 5000 parents that their childrens' autism was caused by vaccines. These claims are primarily based upon the various hypotheses that the MMR vaccine, or thimerosal in some vaccines (but not MMR), or the combination of both, is a cause of autism.
So far there have been hearings, but only one final decision. In November the US government settled one case in favor of the petitioner. This is the case those who have supported the failed hypothesis that vaccines cause autism now point to as admission that they were right all along (or at least as a means of stoking the flames of fear about vaccines.) But the US government did not admit vaccines cause autism - they conceded one case that is highly complex and not necessarily representative of any other case and cannot be reasonably used to support the vaccine/autism connection.
David Kirby, author of Evidence of Harm, wrote a highly misleading article the other day in the Huffington Post on this issue. Orac has already done an excellent job of tearing down Kirby's claims. He points out that legal cases are often decided for legal - not necessarily scientific - reasons. That the government only conceded that "compensation is appropriate." That is all - they conceded nothing about the larger question of vaccines and autism. Orac also points out that if this case were a concession of a connection why would the petitioner's lawyers settle and give away a case that could win them all their other cases?
David Kirby has also written a follow up article, where he publishes verbatim the US government's decision. Kirby asks his readers:
If you feel this document suggests that some kind of link may be possible, you might consider forwarding it to your elected representatives for further investigation.
But, of course, if you feel that this document in no way implicates vaccines, then let's just keep going about our business as usual and not pay any attention to all those sick kids behind the curtain.
I think Kirby is hoping that most people will not have the patience or medical background to read and understand the entire document, and that they will come away with a vague notion that there must be something to all this vaccine fear-mongering. What does the document really tell us?
To summarize the case history, the child in the case appeared normal and healthy, except for chronic otitis media, until about 20 months of age at which time he had a series of vaccines according to the routine vaccination schedule. Two days later the child had a fever to 102.3, was lethargic, irritable, and would arch his back when he cried. The child then developed a rash. It was later determined that the child had: "encephalopathy progressed to persistent loss of previously acquired language, eye contact, and relatedness." The child regressed and developed symptoms similar to those of autism spectrum disorder. However, the child does not have autism - he has a regressive neurological disorder that includes blood and muscle abnormalities not seen in autism, and any clinical resemblance to autism is not a reflection of a common cause.
Six years after symptoms began the child also developed partial temporal lobe epilepsy that required treatment.
During this time the child also had an extensive workup, which discovered:
A CSF organic acids test, on January 8, 2002, displayed an increased lactate to pyruvate ratio of 28,1 which can be seen in disorders of mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation.
A muscle biopsy test for oxidative phosphorylation disease revealed abnormal results for Type One and Three.
In February 2004, a mitochondrial DNA ("mtDNA") point mutation analysis revealed a single nucleotide change in the 16S ribosomal RNA gene (T2387C)
It if often difficult or impossible to draw firm conclusions from a single case, so I will lay out what I see as all the possible alternative hypotheses to explain this information.
1) One possibility is that the child was perfectly normal prior to the vaccines, which caused an encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) which caused brain damage, including the later seizures. The metabolic disorder and mutation may be a red herring and have no bearing on the child's clinical condition.
2) The mitochondrial disorder predisposed the child to have a reaction from the vaccines, resulting in encephalitis. The subsequent neurological regression was due to some combination of the vaccine- induced encephalitis and the underlying mitochondrial disorder.
3) The child's mitochondrial mutation is the primary cause of their neurological regression, but that this regression was exacerbated by the vaccine-induced encephalitis (this seems to be the US government's conclusion).
4) The child has a mitochondrial encephalopathy which is the sole cause of all of the child's neurological signs and symptoms. The reaction to the vaccines may have played no role at all in the subsequent regression, and the child's current neurological condition is exactly what it would have been had they never been vaccinated. It is even possible that the encephalitis was merely the first manifestation of the mitochondrial disorder and the timing after the vaccines was merely coincidental.
That lays out the spectrum of possibilities in this case. At this point in time we do not have (or at least I am not privy to) sufficient scientific information to say definitively where along this spectrum the truth lies. The US government's decision was based partly on this uncertainty - erring on the side of compensating the child and family.
But we can discuss the plausibility of each scenario. Kirby dismisses anything resembling option 4, but his dismissal is naive and unjustified. In fact the patient's clinical syndrome resembles what is called a mitochondrial encephalopathy - with increased lactic acid, abnormal muscle biopsy, neurological regression, appropriate age of onset, even seizures. It is probably not a coincidence that the child has a point mutation in a gene that has been previously linked to these very mitochondrial disorders. Kirby incorrectly argues:
While it's true that some inherited forms of Mt disease can manifest as developmental delays, (and even ASD in the form of Rhett Syndrome) these forms are linked to identified genetic mutations, of which T2387C is not involved. In fact little, if anything, is known about the function of this particular gene.
This is misleading. Kirby refers to "this particular gene" which makes me think that he believes T2387C is a gene. It's not - it describes a point mutation (at location 2387 a thymidine has replaced a cytosine). The gene is the 16S ribosomal RNA gene. Mutations in this gene have been identified to cause mitochondrial encephalopathy. So Kirby is just wrong. It is true that I could not find that this specific mutation has been identified before, but that is common in genetics - a disease is linked to point mutations in a specific gene (or perhaps specific regions of a gene) but most or all families identified have their own specific mutation.
This makes option 4 very plausible - it would be an incredible coincidence if this child just happened to have a mutation in a gene that was known to cause their exact constellation of neurological signs and symptoms and yet the mutation was not the sole or primary cause of those symptoms.
But it does not rule out option 3 - that the mitochondrial disorder was the primary cause of the child's neurological disorder but that a reaction to the vaccines worsened the ultimate symptoms. Therefore the government's decision was reasonable - but is absolutely not a concession about any claim made by the petitioners concerning a link between vaccines an autism.
It does, however, make any hypothesis resembling option 1 or 2 extremely unlikely. Further testing regarding the physiological effects of this child's specific mutation would be helpful, and such testing may be under way but I could find nothing published to date. It is theoretically possible that the identified mutation does not cause a change in the gene product or mitochondrial function, and is therefore just a coincidence. But this is unlikely given the clinical features in this case are a good match to known mutations of that gene.
Kirby, however, apparently wants to wring as much fear and confusion out of these events as he possibly can. So now he speculates wildly that maybe children diagnosed with autism really have this mitochondrial disorder combined with vaccines (he has to keep vaccines in the loop). Given the rarity of such mutations, and the fact that there were specific features in this case that would likely be uncovered in the routine evaluation of a child with autism (like an elevated lactic acid), it is highly unlikely that there are many children with vaccine-triggered mitochondrial encephalopathy mimicking autism out there.
It has been found that some children with autism have mitochondrial dysfunction - one study found that 7.2% of subjects with autism had "definite mitochondrial respiratory chain disorder." Poling et al, in response to this child's case, did a retrospective study of children with autism and with other neurological disorders and found that "Aspartate aminotransferase was elevated in 38% of patients with autism compared with 15% of controls." Such findings are preliminary - the only conclusions that can be drawn is that the association between autism and metabolic disorders requires further investigation. However, these studies did not look at the incidence of suspicious mitochondial mutations in autism, and these findings may not be relevant to this case.
Kirby also wildly speculates that perhaps the evil toxins in vaccines caused the mutation in the first place. He writes:
Use of the AIDS drug AZT, for example, can cause Mt disorders by deleting large segments of mitochondrial DNA. If that is the case, might other exposures to drugs or toxins (i.e., thimerosal, mercury in fish, air pollution, pesticides, live viruses) also cause sporadic Mt disease in certain subsets of children, through similar genotoxic mechanisms?
Among stiff competition, this is perhaps the most absurd and scientifically ignorant thing Kirby has every written. AZT does NOT cause a genetic disorder. AZT blocks DNA replication (it blocks the copying of DNA) - that is its mechanism as an anti-retroviral drug. In patients it can also block mitochondrial DNA replication, thereby causing mitochondrial depletion. This results in there being too few mitochondria (the energy factories of cells) in some cell populations and causes dysfunction in tissue that is especially susceptible to the effects of this dearth of mitochondria. This is a side effect of AZT and also other retrovirals because of sustained use at doses designed to inhibit DNA replication. This does result in some effects that are similar to mitochondrial genetic disorders - because both result in insufficient mitochondrial activity. But that is the only similarity. AZT does not cause a disseminated somatic mutation, which is the incredible analogy that Kirby is making.
What Kirby is suggesting is that in infants and toddlers toxins can cause the same point mutation in millions of different cells throughout the body. Toxin-induced mutations do not cause genetic diseases, unless they occur in a germ cell in which case a mother or father can pass the mutation onto their children. If it occurs in the womb then large cell populations may be affected (whatever cells derive from the cell that had the mutation). But in a child a point mutation would affect only one cell and any cells that derive from it. A toxic mutagen would cause different random point mutations in different cells. This could not cause the mitrochondrial encephalopathy in this child. It can increase the risk of cancer, because cancer can develop from a single mutation in a single cell that causes it to become neoplastic.
Conclusion
This is a unique and idiosyncratic case that raises more questions than it answers. In my opinion as a neurologist, with the information provided, the child has a mitochondrial encephalopathy. The role of the vaccines is unclear, but at worst a rare vaccine reaction exacerbated the underlying mitochondrial disorder. This case has no clear implication for the larger question concerning vaccines and autism, which is likely why both sides agreed to settle.
Yet those who insist, despite the evidence, on claiming that vaccines or mercury are linked to autism are likely to add this permanently to their litany of misinformation and fear-mongering.
Note: I am searching for any follow up information pertinent to this case and will post any addendum here.
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 14:35 GMT > For an excellent analysis of the medical considerations regarding the > recent decision by the US Government see: [quoted text clipped - 272 lines] > Note: I am searching for any follow up information pertinent to this > case and will post any addendum here. What medical school did you attend? How much are you being paid to support the poisoning of our children? Injecting a known highly neurotoxic substance into humans, when there are alternatives, is wrong, period.
Mark Probert - 02 Mar 2008 14:53 GMT On Mar 2, 9:35 am, FAKE DOCTOR drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > For an excellent analysis of the medical considerations regarding the > > recent decision by the US Government see: [quoted text clipped - 274 lines] > > What medical school did you attend? The author of this article is a graduate of Georgetown
> How much are you being paid to support the poisoning of our children? You just proved you are an a.shole.
> Injecting a known highly neurotoxic substance into humans, when there > are alternatives, is wrong, period. Yes, you are a nutter.
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 14:59 GMT > On Mar 2, 9:35 am, FAKE DOCTOR drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 199 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Instead of the usual insults, how about answering the question: Do you think that it is a good idea to inject a known highly neurotoxic agent such as mercury into children?
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 15:27 GMT On Mar 2, 9:59 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > On Mar 2, 9:35 am, FAKE DOCTOR drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 193 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Mr. Probert. I will ask the question again. Do you think that it is wise to inject mercury, a highly neurotoxic substance, into children?
Mark Probert - 02 Mar 2008 16:47 GMT On Mar 2, 10:27 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Mar 2, 9:59 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 200 lines] > Do you think that it is wise to inject mercury, a highly neurotoxic > substance, into children? Answered.
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 17:04 GMT > On Mar 2, 10:27 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 204 lines] > > Answered. Mr. Probert: You have not answered the question that I asked of you. I would like your personal opinion. Let me re-phrase: Do you, Mr. Probert, personally believe that it is okay to inject mercury, a potent neurotoxin, into children? Yes or No.
Mark Probert - 02 Mar 2008 17:22 GMT On Mar 2, 12:04 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > On Mar 2, 10:27 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 207 lines] > Mr. Probert: > You have not answered the question that I asked of you. I did, The fact that you cannot find it, is not my problem. However, being the nice guy I am, here it is:
Since dose makes the poison, and the fact is that there is no good scientific evidence whatsoever that the doseage used caused any problems, I do not think it matters.
BTW, this answer was in the post where I responded to your insults, which hurt your feelings. So much for your reading skills.
I would like
> your personal opinion. > Let me re-phrase: > Do you, Mr. Probert, personally believe that it is okay to inject > mercury, a potent neurotoxin, into children? Yes or No. It is not a yes or no question. However, see above. Here is one for you:
Some people state that Thimerosal is 49% mercury. This refers to the percentage of the molecular weight that the single mercury atom represents.
Do you this that this fact is significant?
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 17:36 GMT > On Mar 2, 12:04 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 235 lines] > > Do you this that this fact is significant? Mr. Probert: The question is simple and can be answered yes or no. You answer a question with a question.
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 17:49 GMT On Mar 2, 12:36 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > On Mar 2, 12:04 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 169 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Mr. Probert: A yes or no answer please.
D. C. Sessions - 02 Mar 2008 20:19 GMT > The question is simple and can be answered yes or no. You answer a > question with a question. Of course he does -- he's Jewish.
Now, why is it that you're not able to learn something as simple as snipping excessive quotations?
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 20:44 GMT > In message <ad9d2fa7-ce14-48fa-8fe2-239df3b27...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ The question is still on the table waiting for an answer that will never come.
D. C. Sessions - 02 Mar 2008 21:02 GMT >> In message <ad9d2fa7-ce14-48fa-8fe2-239df3b27...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> Now, why is it that you're not able to learn something as >> simple as snipping excessive quotations? [signature snipped]
> The question is still on the table waiting for an answer that will > never come. Isn't that the whole idea of rhetorical questions?
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Jan Drew - 03 Mar 2008 04:41 GMT > In message > <ad9d2fa7-ce14-48fa-8fe2-239df3b2725f@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Of course he does -- he's Jewish. Who also lies over and over, called people names, was disbarred is dishonest, harasses, etc. While claiming to read Torah everyday.
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-July 10, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t 07-10...@lymbercartel.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:52:33 GMT Local: Sat, Jul 10 2004 8:52 am
Mark Probert - 03 Mar 2008 12:25 GMT On Mar 2, 10:27 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Mar 2, 9:59 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 200 lines] > Do you think that it is wise to inject mercury, a highly neurotoxic > substance, into children? First, your framing of the question is absurd. First, no one is injecting mercury into children. The preservative, Thimerosal, contains one mercury atom which comprises approximately 49% of the molecular weight of Thimerosal. Some people think this has significance. DO YOU?
Second, the amounts that were used are minute, and further dilute upon injection.
Third, there is good evidence that the ethyl mercury product is rapidly excreted, thus there is no "build-up" over time.
Fourthly, there is NO EVIDENCE OF HARM. There is no clear and convincing evidence that the amount injected caused any problems. In fact, there is a massive amount of evidence that supports the conclusion that there is no harm.
Finally, did you read the analysis of the court decision by Dr. Novella?
Note that I will answer only one time. I have changed the subject line to assist you in finding the answer.
D. C. Sessions - 03 Mar 2008 13:04 GMT > On Mar 2, 10:27 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: [204 lines snipped]
>> Mr. Probert. >> I will ask the question again. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Note that I will answer only one time. I have changed the subject line > to assist you in finding the answer. My question is, "was it necessary to quote those 204 lines?"
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Mark Probert - 03 Mar 2008 13:34 GMT > In message <807f570a-5566-485c-ab43-26206b73f...@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Mark Probert wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > My question is, "was it necessary to quote those 204 lines?" I debated that, and felt that Steve Novella's article was relevant.
drkulacz@optonline.net - 03 Mar 2008 13:35 GMT > In message <807f570a-5566-485c-ab43-26206b73f...@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Mark Probert wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Your post is an example of why it is not productive and a waste time to discuss issues on these forums. Diversion. The M.O. is always the same .It is a shame that a respectful and productive exchange of ideas is impossible on these forums. They always seem to degrade to a much lower level of exchange.
RE: Question to Mr. Probert. Mr. Probert started this post thread and made a definitive statement that Mr. Kirby was wrong. I simply asked his opinion. I did not start the thread and make that blanket statement, he did.
Have a nice day.
Mark Probert - 03 Mar 2008 13:39 GMT On Mar 3, 8:35 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > In message <807f570a-5566-485c-ab43-26206b73f...@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Mark Probert wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Have a nice day Incorrect. I posted an article written by Steve Novella, M.D. He made blanket statements.
However, I full agree. Kirby is wrong, as usual.
And, this week, Kirby gets his due.
drkulacz@optonline.net - 03 Mar 2008 20:11 GMT > On Mar 3, 8:35 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > However, I full agree. Kirby is wrong, as usual. > Home Page This is an interesting letter From the medical device bureau in Canad to the CDA (equivalent to the U.S. ADA) There is much more on this topic of mercury exposure including the Dr. Richardson report to Health Canada. We can post that later. Take special notice of the "dose" issue that you brought up.
It is disturbing that people would continue to support injecting a known highly neurotoxic substance even at very very small doses, into children.
THIS IS A VERBATIM TRANSCRIPTION OF A 'FAX OF A FAX' AND WAS DONE TO ENHANCE READABILITY. THE ORIGINAL COPY IS AVAILABLE ON REQUEST
Medical Devices Bureau Room 1605 Main Statistics Canada Bldg Tunney's Pasture Postal Locator 0301H1 Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0L2 February 27, 1996 Dr. James Brookfield, President Canadian Dental Association 1815 Alta Vista Drive Ottawa, Ontario
Dear Dr Brookfield In November 1995 the Canadian Dental Association circulated to its members a position statement on dental amalgam and a set of questions and answers on amalgam to be used by dentists in responding to inquiries from patients At our recent amalgam meeting in Toronto I mentioned some inaccuracies in that policy and you invited our comments. This letter is to provide you with comments on the policy statement and the questions and answers. Firstly the use of the term "silver dental amalgam" may be misleading to lay readers. It is technically correct that the word "amalgam" by definition means an alloy of metals with mercury, and therefore."silver amalgams" means an alloy of silver with mercury, However, many patients may not know this and may assume that the filling material is mostly silver. This is not true, since current dental amalgam contains no more than about 35% silver. Mercury is the principal ingredient, and so it might be more accurate to leave the word "silver" out of the title. COMMENTS ON THE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS Q. Who is responsible for the safety of medical devices and dental materials? A. In Canada, medical devices and materials require approval of the Health Protection Branch of Health Canada. Not all devices and materials require approval by the Health Protection Branch.. Only those listed in the table to Part V of the Medical Devices Regulations must obtain "approval" (more precisely a Notice of Compliance) before they may be sold. Dental filling materials are specifically exempted from this requirement. Q. Is dental amalgam approved for use in Canada? A. Yes, dental amalgam is approved for use in Canada by Health Protection Branch. This statement is categorically false. Dental amalgam has never undergone pre-market review in Canada because it was in use before the Medical Devices Regulations were established. The CDA previously published this misinformation in a paper in the CDA Journal in May 1995. At that time, we informed the CDA of this error, but CDA has repeated it here. Scientific literature on the topic, as a whole, supports the position that amounts released are generally less than mercury picked up from natural sources. This may be a misleading over-simplification. The World Health Organization states that dental amalgam is the largest single source of mercury exposure for persons not occupationally exposed (reference World Health Organization. 1991. Inorganic Mercury. Environmental Health Criteria 118. International Program on Chemical Safety. (Geneva)). In some individuals the mercury exposure from amalgam may be as great as from all natural sources combined. Q. Is the mercury which is released from fillings absorbed into the body? A. Yes, but in extremely small amounts, i.e. in MILLIONTHS of a gram (this is very small amount, 0.000001 grams. This answer is rather condescending and insulting to the intelligence of readers. By emphasizing only how small a microgram is it implies that a microgram of toxic material could not be harmful. What is significant is not now many zeroes there are in a microgram, but how many micrograms of mercury are released by amalgam compared to the number of micrograms required to cause illness. The fact is that a level of only one hundred millionths of a gram (only 0.0001 gm) of mercury per gram of Creatinine in urine is considered to indicate clinical mercury poisoning. Some researchers claim to detect higher mercury in the blood of people with amalgams than in those without amalgams but other researchers could not detect mercury in the blood of patients even with new amalgam restorations. Although I am not familiar with studies that could not detect mercury in the blood of patients even with new amalgam restorations, there are several reliable studies (one of them by Dr Anders Berglund) which show higher levels of mercury in blood and urine of people with amalgam fillings than in these without. There are also studies which show a strong correlation between the number of amalgam surfaces and mercury levels in the brain and kidney. These studies are discussed in the 1993 US Department of Health and Human Services report "Dental Amalgam; A Scientific Review and Recommended Public Service Health Strategy for Research, Regulation and Education", Appendix 3, pp 10-15 Q. Is the dental profession suppressing information on the dangers of amalgams? A. No, the dental profession believes in informed patient consent and recognizes the patient interest above any other considerations. You are in a better position than we are to determine the degree to which this statement is correct. The CDA policy states that "Dentists want patients to be aware of conclusions from the range of scientific studies on dental amalgam so that the appropriate choice can be made." This statement is difficult to reconcile with the CDA's sweeping dismissal of research such as that discussed above, linking mercury levels with the number of amalgam fillings. Thank you for providing us with the opportunity to comment on the CDA policy on dental amalgam, and the Questions and Answers. I hope that the comments are helpful to you in revising these documents to present more accurate information on this subject. Yours sincerely, Richard S. Tobin, Ph.D Director
THIS IS A VERBATIM TRANSCRIPTION OF A 'FAX OF A FAX' AND WAS DONE TO ENHANCE READABILITY. THE ORIGINAL COPY IS AVAILABLE ON REQUEST
Home Page
> And, this week, Kirby gets his due.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - D. C. Sessions - 03 Mar 2008 20:24 GMT > It is disturbing that people would continue to support injecting a > known highly neurotoxic substance even at very very small doses, into > children. You mean potassium?
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drkulacz@optonline.net - 03 Mar 2008 20:43 GMT > In message <644545c1-e923-471d-ac89-a2ef3e1c8...@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ Potassium is an essential, mercury is not. People can die drinking too much water. You are hilarious!!! Thanks for the giggle.
Cheers
drkulacz@optonline.net - 03 Mar 2008 20:49 GMT On Mar 3, 3:43 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > In message <644545c1-e923-471d-ac89-a2ef3e1c8...@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Cheers D.C.Sessions: You are using diversion tactics again. Your standard operating procedure in the handbook that they gave you. Way to go.
D. C. Sessions - 03 Mar 2008 21:44 GMT > You are using diversion tactics again. Logic is a diversion?
> Your standard operating procedure in the handbook that they gave you. Ah, yes -- the "if I can't refute the merits of the argument, attack the poster" strategy. By all means attack my honesty, my profession, and my family. Have at it.
I wouldn't deny you the only tools you have.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drkulacz@optonline.net - 03 Mar 2008 22:13 GMT > In message <e9009d85-3475-4392-b7dc-0bbbb4aab...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I wouldn't deny you the only tools you have.
> -- > | The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ I am not resorting to personal attacks. That is your game. The same way Mr. Probert called me an a.shole and a nutter. Sounds to me to be a personal attack. No worries . Maybe he cannot help himself.
I prefer to stick to the issues.
In my opinion your comparison of K to Hg. is illogical and an attempt at diversion. Maybe I am wrong. I wonder what others think?
Cheers
D. C. Sessions - 03 Mar 2008 22:49 GMT >> In message <e9009d85-3475-4392-b7dc-0bbbb4aab...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> I wouldn't deny you the only tools you have.
> I am not resorting to personal attacks.
> I prefer to stick to the issues. Such as,
>> > Your standard operating procedure in the handbook that they gave you.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Peter Bowditch - 03 Mar 2008 23:16 GMT >In my opinion your comparison of K to Hg. is illogical and an attempt >at diversion. Why? Aren't they both toxic?
>Maybe I am wrong. I wonder what others think? At least some of us others think.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
drkulacz@optonline.net - 03 Mar 2008 23:20 GMT > drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > >In my opinion your comparison of K to Hg. is illogical and an attempt [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Australian Skepticshttp://www.skeptics.com.au > To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com Good one Peter! Thanks for the laugh.
Cheers
Citizen Jimserac - 05 Mar 2008 02:50 GMT On Mar 3, 5:13 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > In message <e9009d85-3475-4392-b7dc-0bbbb4aab...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Cheers YOU ARE CORRECT, it WAS a diversion.
Once clearly disproven they will resort to a variety of tactics including ad hominems, change of subject and other clever diversions.
May I suggest that you NOT waste time with them as there are many posters providing news and information of exciting new developments in alternative medicine - new and information which the anti's would rather not be disseminated as it might threaten their 14th century world view and expose their hysteria for the illogical and futile pouting that it is.
Citizen Jimserac
Mark Probert - 04 Mar 2008 04:11 GMT On Mar 3, 3:49 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Mar 3, 3:43 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > You are using diversion tactics again. > Your standard operating procedure in the handbook that they gave you. Who is "they"?
drkulacz@optonline.net - 04 Mar 2008 04:22 GMT > On Mar 3, 3:49 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > - Show quoted text - No need to discuss that.
It appears that you are diverting again so I assume the discussion is over as the main question has already been answered.
Cheers
drkulacz@optonline.net - 04 Mar 2008 04:30 GMT On Mar 3, 11:22 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > On Mar 3, 3:49 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > - Show quoted text - 80 posts to answer one question is tiresome.
OUT
D. C. Sessions - 04 Mar 2008 10:58 GMT > 80 posts to answer one question is tiresome. Since three out of four are yours, how about you ask a question that can be reasonably answered?
> OUT You keep telling us that -- and then post another burst.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
D. C. Sessions - 04 Mar 2008 10:59 GMT > No need to discuss that. So why did you bring it up?
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Mark Probert - 04 Mar 2008 12:30 GMT On Mar 3, 11:22 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > On Mar 3, 3:49 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > No need to discuss that. Why not? You used a logical fallacy to dismiss what I said. I want to know who "they" are? If "they" are doing to me what you claim, I want to stop "they", as I do not like that idea.
> It appears that you are diverting again so I assume the discussion is > over as the main question has already been answered. You can assume as you please. When you play your word games, do not expect to get away with it.
> Cheers- drkulacz@optonline.net - 03 Mar 2008 21:47 GMT On Mar 3, 3:11 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > On Mar 3, 8:35 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 192 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Let's look at dose, in this letter, as Mr. Probert poited outas being important. It certainly does appear that very small levels of mercury are toxic. Multiple injection of thimerosol means multiple doses of what Mr. Probert claims are small doses of mercury.
Mr. Probert. What dose of mercury do you consider safe?
You have not direscly answered my question. Your indirect answer that "Since dose makes the poison, and the fact that there is no good scientific evidence whatsoever that the doseage used caused any problem, I do not think it matters."
What dose do you think would matter?
More importantly, why inject such a toxic substance that is highly toxic in very small amounts, into children? Yet you advocate that it is okay to do so. Why?
D. C. Sessions - 03 Mar 2008 22:56 GMT > What dose do you think would matter? As in anything, there's no point in going after the 10% source when the 90% background isn't being addressed. When vaccines are even in the same order of magnitude as the dominant sources of *any* environmental toxin, it might be worth closer investigation into the benefits (if any) of pursuing alternatives.
In the meantime it's just a stupid waste of cycles.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drkulacz@optonline.net - 03 Mar 2008 23:15 GMT > In message <409b4ec8-8f77-4bfb-b48f-688ed5dbd...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ The question is how much of the environmental toxin contributes to the total body burden of that toxin. Certainly there is abundant industrial sources of mercury. We know that there actually is no safe level of mercury in the body and we know that some indivduals are less able to excrete mercury. Multiple vaccines at one time would inject a bolus amount of mercury that exceeds established exposure limits (Which may in fact be already set too high)
We are back to the question: Why inject highly neurotoxic mercury into children when we know that there are no safe levels of mercury? This is something that we can control why we work on reducing the environmental exposure.
Mr. Probert seems to think that it okay to inject neurotoxic mercury into children. Why?
drkulacz@optonline.net - 03 Mar 2008 23:22 GMT On Mar 3, 6:15 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > In message <409b4ec8-8f77-4bfb-b48f-688ed5dbd...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I would like to know what the "others that think" feel about injecting highly neurotoxic mercury into children.
Mr. Probert apprently thinks that is is okay.
D. C. Sessions - 03 Mar 2008 23:48 GMT > I would like to know what the "others that think" feel about injecting > highly neurotoxic mercury into children. Once again, phrase the question without the emotional "have you stopped beating your wife" phraseology if you want a rational response.
Frankly, that looks less and less likely.
Should you care to have a rational discussion, please quantify the toll you believe that mercury to be causing. We can then discuss whether it's plausible and if plausible whether it's acceptable.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drkulacz@optonline.net - 04 Mar 2008 00:14 GMT > In message <14379b49-d776-49fe-ae38-d5993536a...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ Where are you getting the "emotional wife beating phraseology" tone?
It seems that is what you and your friends do looking back at the past posts. I added "others that think" to my question which was taken from a previous post to me.
What are you talking about? Is this another diversion by you?
At the beginning of this thread I asked a very simple question. All I asked for was a simple answer.
I have watched the replies in amusement.
Cheers
D. C. Sessions - 04 Mar 2008 00:32 GMT > At the beginning of this thread I asked a very simple question. > All I asked for was a simple answer. And in response I asked whether you wanted to have a rational discussion or just want to piss all over the territory to show what an alpha antivaccination radical you are.
It's a simple question, and until you answer it it's impossible to give you an answer to your real question since you're playing transparently childish double-blind games.
So since it's really easy to say, "rational discussion" a reasonable person might conclude that your real agenda is the other alternative. I'll leave it to the other anti-vaccinationists here to sniff your trail and judge.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drkulacz@optonline.net - 04 Mar 2008 01:27 GMT > In message <5f80c63e-79f3-46d3-86c3-1f4a9dff5...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ A bit emotional aren't you D.C.?
I have no aganda other than the advancemrnt of knowledge and keeping an open mind.
As I mentioned in a previous thread, I believe that there is both good and bad in both allopathic medicine and "alternative" medicine. I do not like the word alternative medicine and instead prefer integrative medicine. Whatever works to help diagnose and treat patients is what should be used. I have used and embraced all aspects of medicine in my practice.
What I find disturbing are the extremists on either side that cannot openly look at all sides of an issue and explore all diagnostic and treatment modalities. I will leave that to others reading this thread to judge the open and closed minded people here as well as the people with an agenda.
In my practice and research, the more I have learned, the more I have said "I DON'T KNOW" We are not that far advanced from the days of not washing hands before surgery. Clearly we have just begun to scratch the surface of knowledge. Medicine, and science in general, is very humbling and very complex.
The linear approach to science has given way to the complex non-linear process of quantum mechanics that has been shown to apply to the macro world and not just the micro world as once believed. It will be a while before the world catches up.
One of the points of my posting on this thread was to ilustrate this.
"COMPLEXITY IS THE NEW SCIENCE. EVERYTHING IS COMPLEX; EVERY PROBLEM IN THE WORLD IS A SYSTEM. THE DISCIPLINES ARE CLASSIFIED BY PEOPLE, BUT NATURE NEVER RECOGNIZES THEM"
C.S. KIANG Founding dean of the college of Environmental Sciences, Beijing University.
Cheers
D. C. Sessions - 04 Mar 2008 01:47 GMT > I have no aganda other than the advancemrnt of knowledge and keeping > an open mind. Then ask real questions (not rhetorical double-bind traps with emotionally loaded semantic nullities.)
As it is, your own choice of words belies the quoted text.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drkulacz@optonline.net - 04 Mar 2008 02:47 GMT > In message <5ee362e9-f8a8-4071-9ff1-b6228a3fa...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ I do not know where you can possibly believe that my posts are "emotionally loaded semantic nullities". I believe that you are projecting.
My initial question was not a rhetorical douple-bind trap (?). It was the simplification of a complex topic to it's basic elements after which a more detailed discussion could follow.
It is very similar to the question and thought process in examining the O-ring failure in the space shuttle Challenger disaster Richard Feynmann did a beautiful job wading through the data to the getto the essence of the problem.
The posts in replies to me on this thread calling me an a.shole, nutter, "the smell of hypocrisy in the morning,etc. etc. do not personally bother me at all but do show me where people are coming from.
drkulacz@optonline.net - 04 Mar 2008 03:05 GMT > In message <5ee362e9-f8a8-4071-9ff1-b6228a3fa...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ The more I think about it the clearer it appears that you wish to divert attention ffrom the topic of this thread and make absurd claims about the nature of my posts. I suggest you look at your own posts and that of Probert and Bowditch before making statements about me. I understand that this is your way of diverting attention from the real issue. That is why it is pointless to continue any academic discussion here.
I have read some of the other threads and you behave the same way as you have in this thread.
If you want to look at emotiona posts, simply look in the mirror.
Mark Probert - 04 Mar 2008 12:25 GMT On Mar 3, 10:05 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> The more I think about it the clearer it appears that you wish to > divert attention ffrom the topic of this thread The topic of this thread was Steve Novella's article showing the medicine and science behind the court decision, and why it does not support claims that vaccines cause Autism. Note that I said vaccines, not Thimerosal.
Mark Probert - 04 Mar 2008 12:23 GMT On Mar 3, 8:27 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > In message <5f80c63e-79f3-46d3-86c3-1f4a9dff5...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I have no aganda other than the advancemrnt of knowledge and keeping > an open mind. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Don't expect anyone, except the brain dead, to believe that. Your "simple questions" have been asked innumerable times by those who also claim to have no agenda. When thoroughly queried, their agenda comes out. It is only a matter of time.
Citizen Jimserac - 05 Mar 2008 02:57 GMT On Mar 3, 8:27 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > In message <5f80c63e-79f3-46d3-86c3-1f4a9dff5...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Cheers Quite well said.
Citizen JImserac
drkulacz@optonline.net - 04 Mar 2008 00:39 GMT On Mar 3, 7:14 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > In message <14379b49-d776-49fe-ae38-d5993536a...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The phrase "others that think" came from Peter Bowditch. I just borrowed it.
It is clear that a rational discussion and an answer to a simple question is not possible here. Observing the posts by you, Probert, and Bowditch has been quite interesting.
Cheers to all.
D. C. Sessions - 04 Mar 2008 00:59 GMT > It is clear that a rational discussion and an answer to a simple > question is not possible here. There are lots of "simple questions." I could ask if you clean your keyboard after getting off a post like this.
Your choice.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drkulacz@optonline.net - 04 Mar 2008 00:19 GMT > In message <14379b49-d776-49fe-ae38-d5993536a...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ You have shown that any raqtional discussion is useless. I think we have the answer from Mr. Probert that he thinks that is okay to inject highly neurotoxic mercury into children so no need to continue since that was my original question.
It has been fun reading your posts. Thanks
D. C. Sessions - 04 Mar 2008 00:34 GMT >> In message <14379b49-d776-49fe-ae38-d5993536a...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> We can then discuss whether it's plausible and if plausible >> whether it's acceptable.
> You have shown that any raqtional discussion is useless. Well, we're agreed that attempts to have a rational discussion have failed, although one might question who was making which attempt.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Mark Probert - 04 Mar 2008 12:17 GMT On Mar 3, 6:22 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Mar 3, 6:15 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Mr. Probert apprently thinks that is is okay You seem to have a touch of OCD with that line.
Citizen Jimserac - 05 Mar 2008 02:57 GMT On Mar 3, 6:22 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Mar 3, 6:15 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Mr. Probert apprently thinks that is is okay. I think it is a disgrace. You will note that first they say that it is harmless but later advertise that it is no longer in many of the childhood vaccines except for the flu vaccines.
I pointed out the following regarding the SHUTDOWNof a production facility at Merc because of the potential presence of of a bacteria dangerous to children:
"Well D.C., I thought it rather clear and specific that the allowance of naughty old Bacillus Cereus into vaccines for children was NOT a healthy sort of thing, AND that this was the reason why Merck is holding off on shipping the possibly contaminated batches. ...
In case you are of the opinion that B. Cereus is harmless, I should remind you that not only has Merck terminated shipments and will hold up production for 9 months while it cleans up, but also doctors have been advised by dept. of Health to halt booster shots of the vaccine in question.
Yet another kink in the mythology that vaccines are safe. "
This would seem to indicate that the pro vaccine-ists are concerned about safety only as it applies to a statistically large portion of the population whereas to them, individual cases, even deaths, can be ignored.
Such is the result of allowing PROFIT to override humanism.
Citizen Jimserac
Citizen JImserac
drkulacz@optonline.net - 05 Mar 2008 03:03 GMT > On Mar 3, 6:22 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > > - Show quoted text - You are correct. It is a waste of time dealing with them.That is why I terminated my posts on this thread. I prefer open minded academic discussions not driven by agendas.
D. C. Sessions - 05 Mar 2008 03:21 GMT > "Well D.C., I thought it rather clear and specific that > the allowance of naughty old Bacillus Cereus into vaccines for [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Yet another kink in the mythology that vaccines are safe. " Precisely in the same sense that a lethal [1] contamination of spinach is a "kink in the mythology that vegetables are safe."
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Citizen Jimserac - 05 Mar 2008 04:17 GMT > In message <3fa7b8d3-c2ea-43bb-ae67-fffd2db64...@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, CitizenJimseracwrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > of spinach is a "kink in the mythology that vegetables are > safe." More Cases of Contaminated Spinach Reported Across Country http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec06/spinach_09-18.html
Citizen Jimserac
D. C. Sessions - 03 Mar 2008 23:39 GMT > We are back to the question: > Why inject highly neurotoxic mercury into children when we know that > there are no safe levels of mercury? "no safe levels" is not a meaningful statement; it's purely a rhetorical trick to arouse an unthinking response. As such, it does not deserve a rational response -- which is why, when presented with rational responses, you have not recognized them. They weren't playing your game.
"Highly neurotoxic" is also not a meaningful phrase, also designed to elicit an unthinking emotional response. Quantify the actual harm done by anything and we can talk meaningfully. Until then it's just manipulation.
Manifestly, there *are* safe levels in the same sense that there are safe levels of exposure to ionizing radiation: the differential risk is too low to be worth the effort to do anything about it. So quantify the actual cost of those bogeymen and we can talk intelligently. Otherwise, it's all just preaching to the converted and the easily swayed.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
Mark Probert - 04 Mar 2008 12:19 GMT > In message <2956e11e-02b4-4247-b226-68377129c...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > it's all just preaching to the converted and the easily > swayed. I think that Dr. K does not realize that these word games he is playing have been played before, and before, and before, and before, and before....
drkulacz@optonline.net - 04 Mar 2008 03:09 GMT On Mar 3, 6:15 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > In message <409b4ec8-8f77-4bfb-b48f-688ed5dbd...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > - Show quoted text - This is the topic. Not diversion to personal attacks and false analysis of my posts.
Mark Probert - 04 Mar 2008 12:16 GMT On Mar 3, 6:15 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > In message <409b4ec8-8f77-4bfb-b48f-688ed5dbd...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Mr. Probert seems to think that it okay to inject neurotoxic mercury > into children. Why?- This thread is all over the place. Let's address your points here.
First, there is no clear and convincing evidence that Ethyl Mercury is a "highly neurotoxic" form of mercury, especialy in the doseages used.
Second, your claim that there are no safe levels of mercury is false. Care to prove otherwise?
Third, there is good evidence that Ethyl Mercury is repidly cleared by children, and there is no accummulation.
Fourth, Thimerosal has been removed from childhood vaccines, and a child can grow up without receiving any additional AEthyl Mercury.
Now, why do you not answer questions? I posed one, and I have yet to see the answer. I'll repeat for your convenience:
Is there any significance to the fact that the atomic weight of the one atom of Mercury contained is a molecule of Thimerosal comprises 49% of the molecular weight of a molecule of Thimerosal?
That is, as you are wont to say, a simple, yes/no question.
D. C. Sessions - 02 Mar 2008 15:44 GMT > Instead of the usual insults, how about answering the question: You mean the one that he replied to:
In message <961f719b-267e-411f-b452-3a25c0dafc20@x30g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, drkulacz@optonline.net wrote:
> How much are you being paid to support the poisoning of our children? Ah, the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 15:55 GMT > In message <e1627b03-d571-4345-b36c-a0aca6ae5...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ The question simply requires a yes or no answer. Forget about any disease states that may result. Again. The question For Mr. Probert is: Do you think that children should be injected with mercury, a highly nerotoxic substance? Yes or No.
I ask the same question to you, D.C. Sessions. In addtion, please explain what you mean by "Ah, the smell of hypocrisy in the morning"
Mark Probert - 02 Mar 2008 16:50 GMT On Mar 2, 10:55 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > In message <e1627b03-d571-4345-b36c-a0aca6ae5...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > In addtion, please explain what you mean by "Ah, the smell of > hypocrisy in the morning When you post on Usenet, anyone can answer.
Jan Drew - 03 Mar 2008 04:48 GMT On Mar 2, 10:55 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Mar 2, 10:44 am, "D. C. Sessions" <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > In addtion, please explain what you mean by "Ah, the smell of > hypocrisy in the morning MP When you post on Usenet, anyone can answer.
The question is for YOU.
Peter Bowditch - 02 Mar 2008 19:09 GMT >> In message <e1627b03-d571-4345-b36c-a0aca6ae5...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >In addtion, please explain what you mean by "Ah, the smell of >hypocrisy in the morning" Yet another altie who is unfamiliar with popular culture. Could this lack of exposure to the world explain some of their inability to understand quite simple scientific and logical principles?
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
D. C. Sessions - 02 Mar 2008 19:27 GMT >>> In message <e1627b03-d571-4345-b36c-a0aca6ae5...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
>>I ask the same question to you, D.C. Sessions. >>In addtion, please explain what you mean by "Ah, the smell of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lack of exposure to the world explain some of their inability to > understand quite simple scientific and logical principles? You know how it is with religious fanatics -- they tend to conscientiously restrict their exposure to anything that might tempt them to doubt their dogmas.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 19:36 GMT > In message <bjuls3902m4j8nhsr7dlurqao3r5tmq...@4ax.com>, Peter Bowditch wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ You apprently do not read and nstead prefer to insult. Read my post at 1:59 PM today.
Peter Bowditch - 02 Mar 2008 20:10 GMT >> In message <bjuls3902m4j8nhsr7dlurqao3r5tmq...@4ax.com>, Peter Bowditch wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >You apprently do not read and nstead prefer to insult. >Read my post at 1:59 PM today. Would that be the one where you said nothing about your ignorance of popular culture but instead demonstrated again your lack of understanding of quite simple scientific and logical principles?
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 20:12 GMT > drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > >> In message <bjuls3902m4j8nhsr7dlurqao3r5tmq...@4ax.com>, Peter Bowditch wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > - Show quoted text - LOL
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 19:28 GMT > drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > >> In message <e1627b03-d571-4345-b36c-a0aca6ae5...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Again, another person is unwilling to answer the question that I asked. Please explain the "quite simple scientific and logical principles" that I do not understand after you answer the this question that nobody is willing to answer: Do you believe that is okay to inject mercury, a neurotoxin, into children? Yes or No.
If you believed that injecting mercury containing neruotoxic thimerosol into children was okay, then you would have answered yes.
Failure to answer is answer enough.
Mark Probert - 02 Mar 2008 16:23 GMT On Mar 2, 9:59 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> > On Mar 2, 9:35 am, FAKE DOCTOR drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 203 lines] > Do you think that it is a good idea to inject a known highly > neurotoxic agent such as mercury into children? Since dose makes the poison, and the fact is that there is no good scientific evidence whatsoever that the doseage used caused any problems, I donot think it matters.
As for the insults, you intiated that, and you did not like what you received back. If you cannot take heat, do not give heat. My keyboard is made of heatshield material.
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 16:33 GMT > On Mar 2, 9:59 am, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 213 lines] > received back. If you cannot take heat, do not give heat. My keyboard > is made of heatshield material. Mr. Probert: I did not think that you would answer my question. I did not insult you or use profanity. I assumed that the only reason (and certainly not a justified reason) that you would support injecting children with mercury is because you were being paid to do so. Why would anyone advocate doing such a thing to children?
I ask you again. Do you think it is okay to inject children with a known potent neurotoxin? Yes or No.
D. C. Sessions - 02 Mar 2008 17:49 GMT > I did not insult you or use profanity. Followed immediately by:
> I assumed that the only reason (and certainly not a justified reason) > that you would support injecting children with mercury is because you > were being paid to do so. Why would anyone advocate doing such a thing > to children? Holy Warrior reasoning: 1) If you don't agree with me, it's because you're ignorant. Therefore, I'll repeat the message until you agree. 2) If you know the message and don't agree, it's because you're incompetent (stupid [1], insane, etc.) Therefore I'll insult you. 3) If you not only know the message but can discuss it in detail and *still* don't agree with me, it's because you have chosen to serve the Dark Side: you are evil.
The interesting thing is that all sorts of Holy Warriors, for all Causes, play by the same rules.
[1] e.g. "Putz," "Petey the Moron," etc.
| The most important exclamation in science isn't "Eureka!" | | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | +---------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ----------+
drkulacz@optonline.net - 02 Mar 2008 18:59 GMT > In message <2d5e0a10-effc-43bc-9d5c-725bc3ab0...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > | The most important exclamation is "What the BLEEP?" | > +---------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> ----------+ I just asked a simple question that neither you or Mr. Probert will answer. Of course we all knew that neither of you would answer and instead try to divert the issue and make the type of posts that you have and use prase like "holy warrior reasoning"etc. This is exactly what you have done. No surprise.
For the record, I believe that there is good and bad in both mainstream allopathic medicine as well as alternative medicine. In fact I do not like the word alternative medicine. I prefer the phrase Integrative medicine as I believe that whatever works to benefit the patient should be available for diagnosis and/or treatment.
Extremists on either side deter progress and resort to posts such as yours.
Mark Probert - 04 Mar 2008 03:16 GMT On Mar 2, 1:59 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote:
> I just asked a simple question that neither you or Mr. Probert will > answer. You raise an interesting point. First, it has always been considered a wise move to lurk on a newsgroup for a while, just to get the "lay of the land."
And, your question was neither simple, nor innocent. You asked a yes- no question for a complex matter. Further, you misstated a facvt, i.e., mercury is notinjected. Thimerosali WAS injected. I personally find the way your framed your question most curious.
As for its lack of innocence, the "simplicity" of the question belies that. It is sort of like the classic about when did you stop beating your wife?
drkulacz@optonline.net - 04 Mar 2008 03:38 GMT > On Mar 2, 1:59 pm, drkul...@optonline.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > As for its lack of innocence, the "simplicity" of the question belies > that. It is sort of like the classic about when did you stop beating If you like: Change it to mercury in thimerosol preservative in vaccine injected.....
You understood the question and you answered it by stating that you did not think that it was a problem. You have definitvely stated that mercury in thimerosol preservative<
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