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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / February 2008

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Debbee - 26 Jan 2008 20:16 GMT
What is the difference in the ethics of  the teachings of the  Torah
and Science, and the Church of Scientology?

Do you think that any organized religion should be involved in the
healthcare industry?

Not trying to start a war here--just trying to figure out why people
are quick to attack the Church of Scientology if the Torah has a
connection to Science as strong as it appears to have.

I'm not of either faith, but have read information lately that kind of
reminds me of some of the points that have been made in this
newsgroup....

Thank you.
D. C. Sessions - 26 Jan 2008 20:44 GMT
> What is the difference in the ethics of  the teachings of the  Torah
> and Science, and the Church of Scientology?

Aside from some practical organizational issues, science doesn't
teach ethics.

The Torah doesn't (as I understand it) teach science.

Adherents of the CoS can speak for themselves.

> Do you think that any organized religion should be involved in the
> healthcare industry?

As in, established church?  There isn't one.

> Not trying to start a war here--just trying to figure out why people
> are quick to attack the Church of Scientology if the Torah has a
> connection to Science as strong as it appears to have.

The CoS gets nailed for what are generally considered to be
abuses that have nothing to do with its teachings and a great
deal to do with its aggressive relations with non-adherents
(plus some reputed incidents of physical and psychological
abuse, including death, of its members.)

The CoS get *mocked* for some of its teachings which have become
public.  They're hardly alone in that; most religions have teachings
and practices that may seem bizarre to outsiders.  I'll call your
attention to tefillin, since you bring up Judaism.  As for the
CoS, here's one of its more prominent spokesheads for you to make
your own judgments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O2_rZIgrQI

> I'm not of either faith, but have read information lately that kind of
> reminds me of some of the points that have been made in this
> newsgroup....

Presumably by "either faith" you mean Judaism rather than any of the
other religions based in various degrees on the Torah.  The only
connection between Judaism and medicine (other than good Jewish
mothers wanting their good Jewish sons to become good Jewish doctors)
is that Jan Drew is a bigot who has made an issue of some of the
other posters here being Jewish.

It being Shabbos, they're not around to answer so I'll fill in
until tonight after havdala.  Or not, since some of them aren't
particularly orthodox.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
MothWrangler - 26 Jan 2008 21:53 GMT
>>Not trying to start a war here--just trying to figure out why people
>>are quick to attack the Church of Scientology if the Torah has a
>>connection to Science as strong as it appears to have.

> The CoS gets nailed for what are generally considered to be
> abuses that have nothing to do with its teachings and a great
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> public.  They're hardly alone in that; most religions have teachings
> and practices that may seem bizarre to outsiders.

Seems to me that CoS gets knocked in some usenet groups more than other
religions because of its beliefs WRT mental disorders, and the fact that
much of the anti-psychiatry, anti-psychology, anti-mental illness
treatment information comes from CoS related sources.

In a somewhat similar vein, the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and
Christian Scientists may be more often criticized in certain newsgroups
because of their beliefs WRT medical treatments.

> I'll call your
> attention to tefillin, since you bring up Judaism.  As for the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> is that Jan Drew is a bigot who has made an issue of some of the
> other posters here being Jewish.

But since this is MHA, we mustn't forget the good Jewish Mothers'
alternative for penicillin--chicken soup. Chicken soup is even better
than penicillin IMO, since, IIANM, it treats a variety of viral, as well
as bacterial, ailments.

I seem to recall that there was a study a while back that confirmed the
medical efficacy of chicken soup. I never read the actual study myself,
so I can't comment further.

Nancy
Unique, like everyone else

Signature

Proud member since 2007, WWWSC #1
Ann/Emma Anne #4

D. C. Sessions - 26 Jan 2008 22:04 GMT
> But since this is MHA, we mustn't forget the good Jewish Mothers'
> alternative for penicillin--chicken soup. Chicken soup is even better
> than penicillin IMO, since, IIANM, it treats a variety of viral, as well
> as bacterial, ailments.

Hey, chicken soup isn't in the least "alternative."  It's the
remedy prescribed by that most Orthodox of all physicians:
Moses ben Maimon, aka "the RAMBAM."

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Richard Schultz - 27 Jan 2008 02:39 GMT
:> But since this is MHA, we mustn't forget the good Jewish Mothers'
:> alternative for penicillin--chicken soup. Chicken soup is even better
:> than penicillin IMO, since, IIANM, it treats a variety of viral, as well
:> as bacterial, ailments.

: Hey, chicken soup isn't in the least "alternative."  It's the
: remedy prescribed by that most Orthodox of all physicians:
: Moses ben Maimon, aka "the RAMBAM."

It's what they serve on the Jewish Mothers' Battleship, the S.S. Mein Kint.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
The One True Zhen Jue - 27 Jan 2008 16:31 GMT
> In message <601offF1os19...@mid.individual.net>, MothWrangler wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> remedy prescribed by that most Orthodox of all physicians:
> Moses ben Maimon, aka "the RAMBAM."

ROTFLMAO!  Excellent!

> --
> | Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
> | e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
> | There isn't really a Santa Claus, but trywww.santaclaus.com.      |
> +--------------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
D. C. Sessions - 27 Jan 2008 16:35 GMT
>> In message <601offF1os19...@mid.individual.net>, MothWrangler wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> ROTFLMAO!  Excellent!

The beauty is, they won't get it even if someone explains.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Peter Bowditch - 27 Jan 2008 21:53 GMT
>>> In message <601offF1os19...@mid.individual.net>, MothWrangler wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>The beauty is, they won't get it even if someone explains.

To some, the fact that Thomas Aquinas thought highly of him would be
reason for him to be doubly cursed.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Jan Drew - 27 Jan 2008 02:15 GMT
At 3:45 pm today in a.s.a.d.

I can't read too many of the posts on MHA myself. The sheer magnitude of
uneducated (and not just uneducated, but *proudly* uneducated),
illogical, magical, and delusional thinking there makes me too Woo-zy.
Peter Bowditch - 27 Jan 2008 03:09 GMT
>At 3:45 pm today in a.s.a.d.
>
>I can't read too many of the posts on MHA myself. The sheer magnitude of
>uneducated (and not just uneducated, but *proudly* uneducated),
>illogical, magical, and delusional thinking there makes me too Woo-zy.

A good analysis of m.h.a, Jan. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Jan Drew - 27 Jan 2008 02:10 GMT
"D. C. Sessions" <dcs@lymbercartel.com> wrote:

>Jan Drew

Is not the subject.
Debbee - 27 Jan 2008 17:34 GMT
> > Debbee:  What is the difference in the ethics of  the teachings of the  Torah
> > and Science, and the Church of Scientology?
>
> DC  Aside from some practical organizational issues, science doesn't
> teach ethics.

DC, should there be ethics in the world of Science?  Should
scientists, researchers,
medical health care professionals, insurance companies, pharmaceutical
companies,
chemical companies (alternative or conventional) be "ethically
responsible" to the consumers
and to the public?

>DC   The Torah doesn't (as I understand it) teach science.

I saw it on several websites; The Torah and Science.  I did not
understand what it meant.

> >Debbee:   Do you think that any organized religion should be involved in the
> > healthcare industry?
>
> DC  As in, established church?  There isn't one.

Perhaps I should clarify myself a little better.  I've been reading
numerous websites allegedly connected to various religious groups and
healthcare ideas.  I have with an open mind read blogs (which I only
read to get different perspectives on other people's opinions about
their ideas, and take blogs with a grain of salt for real 411.

> The CoS gets nailed for what are generally considered to be
> abuses that have nothing to do with its teachings and a great
> deal to do with its aggressive relations with non-adherents
> (plus some reputed incidents of physical and psychological
> abuse, including death, of its members.)

I've read about the COS and it appears to be that there seems to be a
struggle for power within the organization.  But I think that is
occuring
in other religious organizations as well.

> The CoS get *mocked* for some of its teachings which have become
> public.  They're hardly alone in that; most religions have teachings
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O2_rZIgrQI

This organization is not for me.  It goes against my beliefs.

> >Debbee:   I'm not of either faith, but have read information lately that kind of
> > reminds me of some of the points that have been made in this
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> is that Jan Drew is a bigot who has made an issue of some of the
> other posters here being Jewish.

Let's leave Jan Drew out of the discussion.  She has the right to
believe
in whatever she sees fit, just like the other opinionated people that
post here
regularly, right?

Yes, I am also aware of the other religions that have their basis in
various
degrees on the Torah.

> It being Shabbos, they're not around to answer so I'll fill in
> until tonight after havdala.  Or not, since some of them aren't
> particularly orthodox.

I've studied other religious organizations, and heritages (cultures)
would
appear to have connected themselves well into the world of healthcare;
and I have recently become aware of the connection in Colorado to
Israel
with reference to the pharmaeceutical companies.  This is one example
of the numerous websites that out there on this subject matter.

Cooperation Between Israel and the State of Colorado
Colorado State, the University of Colorado and NOAA are among the
many ... that will be helpful to the pharmaceutical industry both in
the U.S. and Israel. ...
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/states/CO.html

It is my belief that the United States, and Israel are two separate
countries, and that we
should not be in alliance with any other country but our own to
develop new products and
keep our own people employed.  We need to develop our own
pharmaceutical remedies, and
keep the workload of the FDA and other U.S. governmental control
agencies  to just our developments.

I'm not being a bigot here; I could care less what others have chosen,
or their parents have chosen
for their sexual orientations, or their religious upbringing, but if
we live in America, we need to support
our American companies and our American developments in medicine, and
not worry about supporting
any other country. We need to think about ourselves, and our economy
for a change and stop supporting
others--they've become too dependent on our help--the co-dependency
issues people have in their lives have
come from our own mentor, our own country, the good old  U.S.A.,
D. C. Sessions - 27 Jan 2008 18:58 GMT
>> > Debbee:  What is the difference in the ethics of  the teachings of the  Torah
>> > and Science, and the Church of Scientology?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> DC, should there be ethics in the world of Science?

That's not the same as "ethics of the teachings of ... science."
Scientists, and their work, exist in the context of their societies.
Those societies have ethical teachings which necessarily bear on
the activities of scientists, scientific organizations, etc.
However, those teachings are not science, nor are they the teachings
of science.

>                                                     Should
> scientists, researchers,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> responsible" to the consumers
> and to the public?

See above.  Don't confuse the teachings of the Masons with the principles
of small-m masonry.

>>DC   The Torah doesn't (as I understand it) teach science.
>
> I saw it on several websites; The Torah and Science.  I did not
> understand what it meant.

Then go forth and study.

>> >Debbee:   Do you think that any organized religion should be involved in the
>> > healthcare industry?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> read to get different perspectives on other people's opinions about
> their ideas, and take blogs with a grain of salt for real 411.

I am not an adherent of any religious organization which has healthcare
teachings, and I don't think that any of those which do would appreciate
me speaking for them.
>> >Debbee:   I'm not of either faith, but have read information lately that kind of
>> > reminds me of some of the points that have been made in this
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> post here
> regularly, right?

Hard to leave Jan out when she's the only connection between Judaism
and this newsgroup.  The Jews here don't make an issue of it.

>> It being Shabbos, they're not around to answer so I'll fill in
>> until tonight after havdala.  Or not, since some of them aren't
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the U.S. and Israel. ...
> www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/states/CO.html

If the country were Mexico instead, would you make an issue of the
connection perhaps to the Catholic Church?

> It is my belief that the United States, and Israel are two separate
> countries, and that we
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> keep the workload of the FDA and other U.S. governmental control
> agencies  to just our developments.

Take it up with your representatives.
IMHO, in an era when a virus can cross the Pacific in less than a day,
nationalism has no place in public health.  However, reasonable people
can differ.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Jan Drew - 28 Jan 2008 02:26 GMT
> In message
> <67152a83-8175-41da-a224-842de128eaa4@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
> Hard to leave Jan out when she's the only connection between Judaism
> and this newsgroup.  The Jews here don't make an issue of it.

Douglas (from behind his fake kill file) talks telling lies.

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/cbf8cfc4596aeb48

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative, alt.support.breast-implant,
alt.support.attn-deficit
From: "Coleah" <col...@pacifier.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:55:06 -0500
Local: Thurs, Jun 1 2006 5:55 am

I stand by my very own 'opinion and prejudice' that Ilena Rosenthal gives
other Jewish women a bad wrap by acting like the stereotype 'Whining Jew
Bitch'.  Color me obstinate and intolerant.

>>> It being Shabbos, they're not around to answer so I'll fill in
>>> until tonight after havdala. Or not, since some of them aren't
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> | There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
> +--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-July 10, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
07-10...@lymbercartel.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:52:33 GMT
Debbee - 30 Jan 2008 00:59 GMT
> Take it up with your representatives.
> IMHO, in an era when a virus can cross the Pacific in less than a day,
> nationalism has no place in public health.  However, reasonable people
> can differ.

I've read a lot lately about different organized religions supporting
different
types of healthcare - nursing homes, hospitals, treatments, adult day
care,
adult family homes, etc.  I am
wondering why religious affiliations get themselves into the world of
health care.
Is it for the $$$ that it brings them, or just because they are trying
to reach
out to people?
D. C. Sessions - 30 Jan 2008 02:21 GMT
>> Take it up with your representatives.
>> IMHO, in an era when a virus can cross the Pacific in less than a day,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> to reach
> out to people?

Because caring for the sick is one of the most basic steps functions of
society, and has been a mandate of religions (Hindu, Buddist, Jewish,
Moslem, you name it) for thousands of years.  It's part of their
charter.

Until recently, religious care for the sick was the *only* systematic
care for the sick.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Debbee - 30 Jan 2008 02:38 GMT
> Until recently, religious care for the sick was the *only* systematic
> care for the sick.

It is a fascinating area to read about--there are still a lot of
organized religious
groups that are heavily involved in it all.  And some are involved in
research,
clincs, and medical schools.  It's too bad that they just don't take
off "their brand"
and let it go with the flow...
Richard Schultz - 30 Jan 2008 05:44 GMT
:> Until recently, religious care for the sick was the *only* systematic
:> care for the sick.

: It is a fascinating area to read about--there are still a lot of
: organized religious groups that are heavily involved in it all.  And
: some are involved in research, clincs, and medical schools.  It's too
: bad that they just don't take off "their brand" and let it go with
: the flow...

Before the University of Pittsburgh (aka "The Octopus") took over the
health care industry in the city, there was a Montefiore Hospital, a
Presbyterian Hospital, and a Mercy Hospital (the last was affiliated with
the Roman Catholic church; I don't remember offhand if the relationship
was direct or through Duquesne University).  As far as I know, none of
the three ever denied care to anyone, or lowered the quality of care given to
anyone, based on the patient's religious background.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Debbee - 30 Jan 2008 08:24 GMT
> Before the University of Pittsburgh (aka "The Octopus") took over the
> health care industry in the city, there was a Montefiore Hospital, a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the three ever denied care to anyone, or lowered the quality of care given to
> anyone, based on the patient's religious background.

This is an interesting read.

http://rcrc.org/news/Guidelines%20for%20Ethical%20Health%20Care%20in%20a%20Plura
listic%20Society.cfm

Debbee - 30 Jan 2008 18:13 GMT
> Until recently, religious care for the sick was the *only* systematic
> care for the sick.

DC, I am sending for this free publication from the University of
Virginia.
Thought you might be interested.  Religious practices affecting health
care.

http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/chaplaincy/rbpahc.cfm
Debbee - 30 Jan 2008 01:19 GMT
> I am not an adherent of any religious organization which has healthcare
> teachings, and I don't think that any of those which do would appreciate
> me speaking for them.

You might enjoy this article on Research and Religion being a
difficult mix.

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/27/Worldandnation/Research_and_religion.shtml
Debbee - 31 Jan 2008 17:55 GMT
> Aside from some practical organizational issues, science doesn't
> teach ethics.

Interesting point you made here, DC.  What about the criminal justice
system---I've read articles about using prisoners for research on
drugs--
kind of like the payment plan of you try these drugs out for a study,
and we
will keep you suppled in shampoo, soap, and toothpaste.

Do you think it is ethical for anyone in the Criminal Justice system
as
government employees (you know those that we are paying tax dollars
for them to do a certain job)  to allow for the prisoners to be
subject to the testing of  pharmaceuticals?

Do you know if this practice really does happen and do you approve of
it, DC?
If it is true, it disgusts me and your statement would really hold
true.    This is not OK
for me.
D. C. Sessions - 31 Jan 2008 18:22 GMT
>> Aside from some practical organizational issues, science doesn't
>> teach ethics.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> and we
> will keep you suppled in shampoo, soap, and toothpaste.

That's a change of subject.  Your original topic was the relationship
between science and religion, with ethics thrown in.

This question has nothing to do with the quoted text of my comment.

> Do you think it is ethical for anyone in the Criminal Justice system
> as
> government employees (you know those that we are paying tax dollars
> for them to do a certain job)  to allow for the prisoners to be
> subject to the testing of  pharmaceuticals?

Is it consensual?  You could turn the question around and ask whether
the State should be involved in prohibiting arrangements made by
fully informed adults.  Be careful here, because that exact issue of
informed consent is rather precious to a lot of "alternative health"
activists.

> Do you know if this practice really does happen and do you approve of
> it, DC?
> If it is true, it disgusts me and your statement would really hold
> true.    This is not OK
> for me.

I know it happens to some extent for the simple reason that voluntary
participation in experimental medicine is open to the general public
and courts have found that the State's authority over prisoners doesn't
extend to the degree of paternalism required to prevent it.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Debbee - 01 Feb 2008 04:50 GMT
> That's a change of subject.  Your original topic was the relationship
> between science and religion, with ethics thrown in.

I'm a woman, of course I changed subjects....

> DC This question has nothing to do with the quoted text of my comment.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> informed consent is rather precious to a lot of "alternative health"
> activists.

Really, I wouldn't have thought that.

> >Debbee  Do you know if this practice really does happen and do you approve of
> > it, DC?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and courts have found that the State's authority over prisoners doesn't
> extend to the degree of paternalism required to prevent it.

I remember back in the 60's, I remember there was guy that was
connected
to a drug company somehow, I want to say the guy's name was like
Strow, or Stow (?)
he was involved in several states---like Oklahoma, Alabama, and I
thought
that they ruled that unconstitutional.  I remember studying this in
high school
in government class, and having to write an opinion about this--it
always kind
of gave me the creeps--I remember reading this guy's paper before he
turned it
in--what if they gave the prisoner's something horrible, and they got
loose and
killed people because of the drugs.  That was the last time I read one
of his
papers!!      I guess I didn't realize it could still
be happening today.  I also remember a friend of mine who served in
the
military during Viet Nam  saying that he always thought that there was
a bit
of experimental testing happening.  He would say, "We would get shots,
and
we had no idea what was in them."    Never thought too much about that
either.
I guess it is because you want to assume that everyone in the medical
fields has the best interests for everyone, and would not harm anyone
for
any reason.  This goes for alternative and conventional medicine as
far as I
am concerned.
 
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