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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / January 2008

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Re: Troublesome Appendix Has Function

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rpautrey2 - 22 Jan 2008 09:58 GMT
**  ** rpautrey2

Vindication! Troublesome appendix has function
Researchers think organ produces, protects good germs
Associated Press
Saturday, October 6, 2007

WASHINGTON -- Some scientists think they have figured out the real job
of the troublesome and seemingly useless appendix: It produces and
protects good germs for your gut.

That's the theory from surgeons and immunologists at Duke University
Medical School, published online in a scientific journal this week.

For generations the appendix has been dismissed as superfluous.
Doctors figured it had no function. Surgeons removed them routinely.
People ive fine without them.

And when infected the appendix can turn deadly. It gets inflamed
quickly and some people die if it isn't removed in time. Two years
ago, 321,000 Americans were hospitalized with appendicitis, according
to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The function of the appendix seems related to the massive amount of
bacteria populating the human digestive system, according to the study
in the Journal of Theoretical Biology. There are more bacteria than
human cells in the typical body. Most of it is good and helps digest
food.

But sometimes the flora of bacteria in the intestines die or are
purged. Diseases such as cholera or amoebic dysentery would clear the
gut of useful bacteria. The appendix's job is to reboot the digestive
system in that case.

The appendix "acts as a good safe house for bacteria," said Duke
surgery professor Bill Parker, a study co-author. Its location -- just
below the normal one-way flow of food and germs in the large intestine
in a sort of gut cul-de-sac -- helps support the theory, he said.

Also, the worm-shaped organ outgrowth acts like a bacteria factory,
cultivating the good germs, Parker said.

That use is not needed in a modern industrialized society, Parker
said. If a person's gut flora dies, they can usually repopulate it
easily with germs they pick up from other people, he said. But before
dense populations in modern times and during epidemics of cholera that
affected a whole region, it wasn't as easy to grow back that bacteria
and the appendix came in handy.

In less developed countries, where the appendix may be still useful,
the rate of appendicitis is lower than in the U.S., other studies have
shown, Parker said.

He said the appendix may be another case of an overly hygienic society
triggering an overreaction by the body's immune system.

Even though the appendix seems to have a function, people should still
have them removed when they are inflamed because it could turn deadly,
Parker said. About 300 to 400 Americans die of appendicitis each year,
according to the CDC.

Five scientists not connected with the research said that the Duke
theory makes sense and raises interesting questions.

The idea "seems by far the most likely" explanation for the function
of the appendix, said Brandeis University biochemistry professor
Douglas Theobald. "It makes evolutionary sense."

**The theory led Gary Huffnagle, a University of Michigan internal
medicine and microbiology professor, to wonder about the value of
another body part that is often yanked: "I'll bet eventually we'll
find the same sort of thing with the tonsils."**

(c) 2008 The E.W. Scripps Co.
Kevysmom - 22 Jan 2008 12:40 GMT
> **  ** rpautrey2
>
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>
> (c) 2008 The E.W. Scripps Co.

This is interesting...

I feel like God gave us every body part and organ for a reason.

> He said the appendix may be another case of an overly hygienic society
> triggering an overreaction by the body's immune system.

Yeah, those cleaning chemicals will do a number on your immune system.
drceephd@insightbb.com - 22 Jan 2008 15:15 GMT
> **  ** rpautrey2
>
> Vindication! Troublesome appendix has function
> Researchers think organ produces, protects good germs
> Associated Press
> Saturday, October 6, 2007

Well duh!  I'll wager that 9 times out of 10 the patients do not have
appendicitis.  Yet the allopaths will remove the healthy appendix
anyway.  Anyone got the stats on how many healthy appendixes are
routinely removed?

The Orthopaths would not automatically do surgery.  If the appendix
became inflamed, they knew how to care for the patient so that it did
not rupture.  Only if the appendix had ruptured was surgery necessay
to avoid peritinitis.

> **The theory led Gary Huffnagle, a University of Michigan internal
> medicine and microbiology professor, to wonder about the value of
> another body part that is often yanked: "I'll bet eventually we'll
> find the same sort of thing with the tonsils."**
>
> (c) 2008 The E.W. Scripps Co.

I thought we already had determined that the tonsils were important
and should not be routinely excised.  The greater problem was when the
ignorant allopath is his zeal to "get it all" would use X-rays on the
area.  We now have many vicitms of X-ray induced thyroid cancer as a
example of this ignorant excess.

DrCee
Not a pharma shill ( I am not here to lie to you or deceive you )
D. C. Sessions - 22 Jan 2008 15:33 GMT
> Well duh!  I'll wager that 9 times out of 10 the patients do not have
> appendicitis.  Yet the allopaths will remove the healthy appendix
> anyway.  Anyone got the stats on how many healthy appendixes are
> routinely removed?

Would you believe them if they disagreed with your (quoted above)
admittedly ignorant opinion?

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Peter Moran - 22 Jan 2008 20:27 GMT
On Jan 22, 4:58 am, rpautrey2 <rpautr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ** ** rpautrey2
>
> Vindication! Troublesome appendix has function
> Researchers think organ produces, protects good germs
> Associated Press
> Saturday, October 6, 2007

>Well duh!  I'll wager that 9 times out of 10 the patients do not have
>appendicitis.  Yet the allopaths will remove the healthy appendix
>anyway.  Anyone got the stats on how many healthy appendixes are
>routinely removed?

>The Orthopaths would not automatically do surgery.  If the appendix
>became inflamed, they knew how to care for the patient so that it did
>not rupture.  Only if the appendix had ruptured was surgery necessay
>to avoid peritinitis.

Dr Cee, appendictis had a 25% mortality rate early last century while
medicine was still dragging itself out of the old superstitions like
vitalism and orthopathy.     People will get very ill and some will die if
they believe your nonsense, or if they delay, hoping they can cure any
persistent abdominal pain by themselves.

The proposed hypothesis is shaky  .The normal appendix has a trivial surface
area compared to that of the rest of the colon, so that it seems unlikely to
me that its bacterial/mucus film  is going to be very significant in
repopulating the colon after  diarrhoeal illness.

The researchers themselves conclude  that the appendix has no function in
today's highly sanitised society, and they also support the policy of
removing inflamed appendixes.   The l.ifetime risk of appendicitis for
Americans is 15-20%, decreasing with age, so that routine removal of the
appendix when it is easily accessible at operation can also be argued to be
a good thing for many patients.   It is something that surgeons themselves
argue about.

PM
D. C. Sessions - 22 Jan 2008 20:54 GMT
> Dr Cee, appendictis had a 25% mortality rate early last century while
> medicine was still dragging itself out of the old superstitions like
> vitalism and orthopathy.     People will get very ill and some will die if
> they believe your nonsense, or if they delay, hoping they can cure any
> persistent abdominal pain by themselves.

To put this in perspective, what is the distribution of delay from
first symptoms to rupture?  I know in my own case that it was less
than 48 hours from first symptoms to what my surgeon likened to
handling a live grenade.  I also know that in some cases (including
a scandalous local one a while back) patients go the better part of
a week between the two endpoints.

So: how long does Cee have for his supposedly infallible
interventions to do their magic?

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Peter Moran - 22 Jan 2008 21:33 GMT
>> Dr Cee, appendictis had a 25% mortality rate early last century while
>> medicine was still dragging itself out of the old superstitions like
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> So: how long does Cee have for his supposedly infallible
> interventions to do their magic?

As with most illnesses, appendicitis pursues a very variable course.
Milder cases can even resolve by themselves.      I doubt if the appendix
can perforate  and produce peritonitis in under 48-72  hours, but some
patients seem to present with generallised peritonitis without much in the
way of premonitory symptoms. .  In other cases the perforation is minor and
walled off by adhesions to produce an abscess.  Appendiceal abscesses also
have a variable progress ranging from early death from septicemia,  to
spontaneous resolution ,  through rupture into the bowel or vagina.

PM
D. C. Sessions - 22 Jan 2008 22:11 GMT
>>> Dr Cee, appendictis had a 25% mortality rate early last century while
>>> medicine was still dragging itself out of the old superstitions like
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> have a variable progress ranging from early death from septicemia,  to
> spontaneous resolution ,  through rupture into the bowel or vagina.

Sorry, PM -- I used a term of art (not your own) on you.
"Distribution" refers to the quantitative relationship between
two nondeterministic variables -- in other words, "N% in 1-2 days,
M% in 2-3 days, etc."

I know that some are quite fast (mine) and others slow-to-self-limiting.
The real question is how many in each bucket so as to get a rough
idea of the consequences of delay and how many patients he's writing
off by trying to push a "cure" through the alimentary track.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Kevysmom - 22 Jan 2008 22:41 GMT
What about prevention? Now that we know what causes it, How many lives
can we save by getting rid of all these chemicals in the home!

> In message <13pco9elg0no...@corp.supernews.com>, Peter Moran wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
D. C. Sessions - 22 Jan 2008 23:04 GMT
(Regarding appendicitis:)

> What about prevention? Now that we know what causes it, How many lives
> can we save by getting rid of all these chemicals in the home!

We (meaning Evil Organized Medicine) have known what causes it for
a long time: bacteria going wild in a relatively benign environment.
(I won't pretend to speak for the orthopaths, homeopaths,
cell-salt-sellers-by-the-sea-shore, Hulda Clark, etc.)

What to do about it?  All of the conceivable preventive measures
do more harm than good.  Appendicitis has been with us from
ancient times.  It used to be just one of those "well, you live
or you die" things that life was full of.  Now we have a much
higher survival rate.

As for chemicals in the home?  Do you agree that they are increasing?

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Richard Schultz - 23 Jan 2008 05:32 GMT
: What about prevention? Now that we know what causes it, How many lives
: can we save by getting rid of all these chemicals in the home!

Why don't you start with H2O, NaCl, C12H22O11, and proteins?  From there
you can move on to, say, O2.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Peter Moran - 22 Jan 2008 22:59 GMT
>>>> Dr Cee, appendictis had a 25% mortality rate early last century while
>>>> medicine was still dragging itself out of the old superstitions like
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> idea of the consequences of delay and how many patients he's writing
> off by trying to push a "cure" through the alimentary track.

I don't posses such figures, but I can tell you that the overall mortality
of acute appendicitis is now about 0.08% (in 4950 cases -- Hale et Al  Ann
Surg 225:252-261, 1997)  meaning that even more advanced cases can mostly be
salvaged in these days of modern anesthesia, intensive care and antibiotics.
It is now very unusual to have a death from appendicitis, and it is usually
only when the diagnosis has been missed.

The main risk of delay (assuming the patient eventually sees a proper
doctor) is a long drawn-out and life-sapping illness with multiple
complications --abscesses, fistulae etc.   But it will be too late to save a
few if they wait too long.

I am not saying all of alternative medicine is bad or without usefulness for
some, but elements of it like DRCee are definitely trying to take us back to
the dark ages.  We are now seeing some awful cases of advanced local breast
cancer from women being led to believe that breast cancer is another of
those trivial medical annoyances that can be fixed up with a few supplements
and a different diet (see  http://www.vci.org/breastcancer1.htm   for
examples).

Of course, warning people against ineffective methods doesn't mean that they
will then choose effective methods.   All we can do is try and get the
available information looked at.

PM

www.cancerwatcher.com
D. C. Sessions - 22 Jan 2008 23:25 GMT
> I don't posses such figures, but I can tell you that the overall mortality
> of acute appendicitis is now about 0.08% (in 4950 cases -- Hale et Al  Ann
> Surg 225:252-261, 1997)  meaning that even more advanced cases can mostly be
> salvaged in these days of modern anesthesia, intensive care and antibiotics.
> It is now very unusual to have a death from appendicitis, and it is usually
> only when the diagnosis has been missed.

Which is what happened here a couple of years ago.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Richard Schultz - 23 Jan 2008 05:34 GMT
:> It is now very unusual to have a death from appendicitis, and it is usually
:> only when the diagnosis has been missed.

: Which is what happened here a couple of years ago.

Just to play devil's advocate -- my father's FMF was misdiagnosed as
appendicitis some 40 years ago.  What are the risks of "appendicitis" when
we include people who are diagnosed with it even thoughthey don't have it?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't.  That's logic."
Peter Moran - 23 Jan 2008 06:57 GMT
> :> It is now very unusual to have a death from appendicitis, and it is
> usually
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> appendicitis some 40 years ago.  What are the risks of "appendicitis" when
> we include people who are diagnosed with it even thoughthey don't have it?

FMF?

That used to be very common -- even 10-20 per cent in inexperienced hands.
Acute abdominal pain is very common, especially in children, and sorting out
those who needed surgery from those who didn't  required great clinical
skill, with little help from any investigations.  Fortunately the risks of
negative exploratory surgery  are very low.  Nowadays it aslo safe to use a
period of observation when in doubt, high resolution CT scans can help in
making the  diagnosis, and diagnostic laparoscopy can be a final step when
still not sure.

PM
D. C. Sessions - 23 Jan 2008 13:55 GMT
> Nowadays it aslo safe to use a
> period of observation when in doubt, high resolution CT scans can help in
> making the  diagnosis, and diagnostic laparoscopy can be a final step when
> still not sure.

I'm mildly curious about when CT got good enough to be useful,
since they didn't use it on me ten years ago.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Peter Moran - 23 Jan 2008 20:07 GMT
>> Nowadays it aslo safe to use a
>> period of observation when in doubt, high resolution CT scans can help in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I'm mildly curious about when CT got good enough to be useful,
> since they didn't use it on me ten years ago.

It is only practical with modern high speed machines using high resolution
and fine cuts.   It is in increasing use, but I think the final appraisal of
its place and it usefulness will take time.

PM

> | Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
> | e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
> | There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
> +--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
drceephd@insightbb.com - 23 Jan 2008 20:10 GMT
> > I'm mildly curious about when CT got good enough to be useful,
> > since they didn't use it on me ten years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> PM

Your comments have what to do with alternative medicine?
Your comments would be better served on sci.med, hocuspocus.med, or
payoutyourass.med.

DrCee
Not a pharma shill ( I am not here to promote the allopathic medical
lies and deceit)
D. C. Sessions - 23 Jan 2008 20:40 GMT
> Your comments have what to do with alternative medicine?
> Your comments would be better served on sci.med, hocuspocus.med, or
> payoutyourass.med.

D-- old bird, 90% and more of the posts on this board have
nothing to do with alternative medicine.  This board is about
two things, and those two only (in order of volume):
1) Jan Drew
2) Attacks on science-based medicine

Of course, we're in no danger of you netcopping most of the
traffic, so just go along and do whatever it is you do in
between appearances here.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Richard Schultz - 23 Jan 2008 17:32 GMT
:> Just to play devil's advocate -- my father's FMF was misdiagnosed as
:> appendicitis some 40 years ago.  What are the risks of "appendicitis" when
:> we include people who are diagnosed with it even thoughthey don't have it?
: FMF?

Familial Mediterranean Fever.  My father is one of the few Ashkenazic Jews
who suffer from it.  Interestingly enough, the only doctor he had who came
up with the correct diagnosis without a *lot* of prompting was of
Sephardic extraction.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"I've lost my harmonica, Albert."
D. C. Sessions - 23 Jan 2008 13:52 GMT
> Just to play devil's advocate -- my father's FMF was misdiagnosed as
> appendicitis some 40 years ago.  What are the risks of "appendicitis" when
> we include people who are diagnosed with it even thoughthey don't have it?

I can identify.

Ten years ago, I had a case of lower-right-quadrant abdominal pain
that kept the ER troops dithering all morning.  X-ray, bloodwork,
the usual manual examination, you name it.  All inconclusive.

So, with Mayo across the street, they pulled in an abdominal
surgeon to take a look.  As he put it, they didn't have enough
information to do anything noninvasive, and it *might* have
been an appendix, so one way or another the Mark One eyeball
was indicated.

(This was apparently before CT was accepted as a reliable tool
for abdominal soft-tissue diagnostics.)

So in went the general and a few hours later I'm in recovery
with staples in my belly.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Peter Bowditch - 23 Jan 2008 00:31 GMT
>>> Dr Cee, appendictis had a 25% mortality rate early last century while
>>> medicine was still dragging itself out of the old superstitions like
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>PM

Why would the orthopaths so beloved by "Dr" Cee care about peritonitis
or septicemia? Surely infection and germs can't hurt anyone.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
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To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

rpautrey2 - 24 Jan 2008 01:23 GMT
Why do research? Just ask PM. PA

> <drcee...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >anyway.  Anyone got the stats on how many healthy appendixes are
> >routinely removed?

> Dr Cee, appendictis had a 25% mortality rate early last century while
> medicine was still dragging itself out of the old superstitions like
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> today's highly sanitised society, and they also support the policy of
> removing inflamed appendixes.**

> The l.ifetime risk of appendicitis for
> Americans is 15-20%, decreasing with age, so that routine removal of the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> PM
 
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