Medical Forum / General / Alternative / January 2008
Snakeoil Salesman Andrew Kingoff / Chemical Disinformation about MCS
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Ilena Rose - 20 Jan 2008 20:37 GMT "MCS is caused by the fear of chemicals, not the actual chemicals in question."
Absolute and utter chemical industry / ACSH.org / Quackwatch / Healthfraud / Snake-oil propaganda.
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/Snake-oil.htm#Andrew-Kingoff
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm#Andrew-Kingoff
The One True Zhen Jue - 20 Jan 2008 20:58 GMT > "MCS is caused by the fear of chemicals, not the > actual chemicals in question." You've been shown the research, Ilena. The belief that one has been exposed, not actual exposure, is what triggers the symptoms. Repeated clinical trials have shown this. Why does that bother you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity#Psychological_causes
Psychological causes Several mechanisms for psychological etiology have been proposed including theories based on stress, Pavlovian conditioning, or misdiagnoses of an underlying mental illness. Behavior exhibited by MCS sufferers may reflect broader sociological fears about industrial pollution.[26]
It's difficult to differentiate psychological and physiological etiologies of MCS because substances used to test for sensitivity can often be detected by scent. Odor cues make double blind studies of MCS patients difficult, and scents might provoke a psychosomatic response. Research by Dr Mariko Saito et al from the Department of Psychosomatic Medicine at the University of Tokyo in 2005 found that patients only experienced symptoms when they themselves initiated the challenge tests. When they were given random prompts, there was no difference between MCS patients and controls in terms of physical and psychologic symptoms.[27] Their conclusion was "MCS patients do not have either somatic or psychologic symptoms under chemical-free conditions, and symptoms may be provoked only when exposed to chemicals," although their results showed that it was not the chemicals themselves that caused the symptoms.
A review of 37 provocation studies concluded that "persons with MCS do react to chemical challenges; however, these responses occur when they can discern differences between active and sham substances, suggesting that the mechanism of action is not specific to the chemical itself and might be related to expectations and prior beliefs".[28] Critics of such provocation studies assert that they are inconclusive because they often employ masking odors which themselves are alleged to trigger MCS. At least one study attempted to correct for this problem by only using patients who do not respond to the masking odor, and this provocation study similarly showed no correlation between symptoms and chemical exposure.[29]
Another study found strong evidence of a placebo effect: purported MCS sufferers claimed symptoms in nonblinded tests when fed suspected food extracts, but were unable to produce symptoms consistently when the tests were doubleblinded; similarly, patients responded identically to "treatments" and saline.[30]
Science rejects mind-body dualism, so the distinction between physiological and psychological causes is difficult to test.[28
Jan Drew - 22 Jan 2008 02:08 GMT > "MCS is caused by the fear of chemicals, not the > actual chemicals in question." You've been shown the research, Ilena. The belief that one has been exposed, not actual exposure, is what triggers the symptoms. Repeated clinical trials have shown this. Why does that bother you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity#Psychological_causes
Psychological causes Several mechanisms for psychological etiology have been proposed including theories based on stress, Pavlovian conditioning, or misdiagnoses of an underlying mental illness. Behavior exhibited by MCS sufferers may reflect broader sociological fears about industrial pollution.[26]
It's difficult to differentiate psychological and physiological etiologies of MCS because substances used to test for sensitivity can often be detected by scent. Odor cues make double blind studies of MCS patients difficult, and scents might provoke a psychosomatic response. Research by Dr Mariko Saito et al from the Department of Psychosomatic Medicine at the University of Tokyo in 2005 found that patients only experienced symptoms when they themselves initiated the challenge tests. When they were given random prompts, there was no difference between MCS patients and controls in terms of physical and psychologic symptoms.[27] Their conclusion was "MCS patients do not have either somatic or psychologic symptoms under chemical-free conditions, and symptoms may be provoked only when exposed to chemicals," although their results showed that it was not the chemicals themselves that caused the symptoms.
A review of 37 provocation studies concluded that "persons with MCS do react to chemical challenges; however, these responses occur when they can discern differences between active and sham substances, suggesting that the mechanism of action is not specific to the chemical itself and might be related to expectations and prior beliefs".[28] Critics of such provocation studies assert that they are inconclusive because they often employ masking odors which themselves are alleged to trigger MCS. At least one study attempted to correct for this problem by only using patients who do not respond to the masking odor, and this provocation study similarly showed no correlation between symptoms and chemical exposure.[29]
Another study found strong evidence of a placebo effect: purported MCS
sufferers claimed symptoms in nonblinded tests when fed suspected food extracts, but were unable to produce symptoms consistently when the tests were doubleblinded; similarly, patients responded identically to "treatments" and saline.[30]
Science rejects mind-body dualism, so the distinction between physiological and psychological causes is difficult to test.[28
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Wikipedia Founder Discourages Academic Use of His Creation What kind of idiot cites Wikipedia? The point of citation is to hold an individual responsible, or to give credit to an individual. The nature of Wikipedia is collaborative, and thus non-static and in constant flux. There is simply no credit to give, and thus no accountability for the truth of the arguments. I appreciate Wales suggestions - it is quite good (I use it all the time) for broad overviews of unfamiliar topics. It has its place, but an academic source it is not.
Debbee - 22 Jan 2008 08:43 GMT Don't you have a Mathematics degree?? Exactly what is your personal experience with MCS patients?
Anyone can post studies---how does anyone know if they real or made up?
According to Rootdown, if you aren't playing on Rootdown, you are with your patients.
Then what are you doing about subjects--shouldn't you either be on Rootdown or with your patients....
If not, you'd better edit your Rootdown pages, otherwise you are lying!
The One True Zhen Jue - 22 Jan 2008 12:57 GMT > Don't you have a Mathematics degree?? No, my original degree is in Psychology
> Exactly what is your personal experience with MCS patients? What do you mean?
> Anyone can post studies---how does anyone know if they real > or made up? I think David Wright has explained that clearly enough to the MHA readers. You rememember; peer review & replication are a big part of validating studies.
> According to Rootdown, if you aren't playing on Rootdown, you are > with your patients. Well, that is because Rootdown doesn't have my complete, official schedule. The secret service doesn't want to make it easy to track such a high-value target as myself. Its a national security thing, dontcha know?
> Then what are you doing about subjects--shouldn't you either be on > Rootdown or with your patients.... Subjects? You mean the "subject" that claimed she set off metal detectors from heavy metals in her blood stream?
> If not, you'd better edit your Rootdown pages, otherwise you are > lying! Debbee - 24 Jan 2008 15:48 GMT On Jan 22, 4:57 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Debbee: Exactly what is your personal experience with MCS patients? > >Kingoff: What do you mean? Just exactly what is your personal experience with the MCS patients? You claim that this is caused by the "fear of chemicals," where did you get this information? It is simply in my opinion "not true."
> >Debbee: Anyone can post studies---how does anyone know if they real > > or made up? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You rememember; peer review & replication are a big part of validating > studies. Interestingly, there are not a lot of studies in the peer reviewed journals with reference to MCS. However, there are a lot of books about MCS from people that have studied this, and researched the information. And there are some studies that talk about a psychiatry drug that claims to be the "cure all." I tried one of those drugs and got worse. It was almost as bad as taking prednisone!
> >Debbee: According to Rootdown, if you aren't playing on Rootdown, you are > > with your patients. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > such a high-value target as myself. Its a national security thing, > dontcha know? I got an email from someone that claimed that she had tried to track you down but you were never in the office. Name was Mary Fuller. Ring any bells?
> >Debbee Then what are you doing about subjects--shouldn't you either be on > > Rootdown or with your patients.... > > Kingoff: Subjects? You mean the "subject" that claimed she set off metal > detectors from heavy metals in her blood stream? Andrew, I am going to tell you one more time. There were witnesses to that event. It was rather embarrassing to say the least. And as I finally understood it, it had to do with my iron level at the time. Conventional doctors did not understand it either--it took a physics professor to finally fully explain it.
The One True Zhen Jue - 24 Jan 2008 18:06 GMT > On Jan 22, 4:57 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > information? It is simply > in my opinion "not true." I've posted my sources. You probably remember Mark Thorson's postings of properly controlled, replicated trials.
> > >Debbee: Anyone can post studies---how does anyone know if they real > > > or made up? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > journals with > reference to MCS. Yes, I've posted them. Their conclusions form of the basis of my view. Replicated studies show that the belief one is being exposed is the trigger, not the actual exposure.
However, there are a lot of books about MCS from
> people that > have studied this, and researched the information. And there are some > studies that > talk about a psychiatry drug that claims to be the "cure all." I > tried one of those > drugs and got worse. It was almost as bad as taking prednisone! Unfortunately, psychiatric conditions are notoriously difficult to treat. Don't let one bad incident sour your on the idea of seeking psychiatric treatment, as needed.
> > >Debbee: According to Rootdown, if you aren't playing on Rootdown, you are > > > with your patients. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > any > bells? Nope. Perhaps she has stopped at my former office. My sign may still be up. Anyone who really wants to track me down can let their fingers do the walking.
> > >Debbee Then what are you doing about subjects--shouldn't you either be on > > > Rootdown or with your patients.... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that > event. Witnesses to what? Witnesses to you claiming that a doctor had a metal detector in his office that he used to show you had excessively high concentrations of heavy metals? Witnesses to you walking through an airport metal detector and causing it to beep? Heck, that happens to me every so often. There are no witnesses to you having LD 100 doses of iron or what ever metals you care to lie about. You could not survive the levels of metal required to set off airline metal detectors.
> It was rather embarrassing to say the least. It should be quite embarrassing to continue to pushing this lie, Debbee. It did not happen.
And as I finally
> understood > it, it had to do with my iron level at the time. Conventional doctors > did not understand > it either--it took a physics professor to finally fully explain it. We aren't as credulous as you'd like us to be. Sorry, you just can't push that turd on the MHA faithful.
> - Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Debbee - 25 Jan 2008 04:51 GMT On Jan 24, 10:06 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> just babbled--so I snipped it. Andrew, this is not the aerobics class---that is down the hall. If you want to bend and twist--and even stretch...please go down the hall to Room J
The One True Zhen Jue - 25 Jan 2008 15:54 GMT > On Jan 24, 10:06 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If you want to bend and twist--and even stretch...please go down the > hall to Room J Debbee, if this were an aerobics class, you'd be nowhere to be found!
Debbee - 25 Jan 2008 15:57 GMT On Jan 25, 7:54 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Debbee, if this were an aerobics class, you'd be nowhere to be found! This is not an aerobics class, and guess what, I do aerobics.....
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