Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / Alternative / January 2008

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Snakeoil Salesman Andrew Kingoff / Chemical Disinformation about MCS

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Ilena Rose - 20 Jan 2008 20:37 GMT
"MCS is caused by the fear of chemicals, not the
actual chemicals in question."

Absolute and utter chemical industry / ACSH.org / Quackwatch /
Healthfraud / Snake-oil propaganda.

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/Snake-oil.htm#Andrew-Kingoff

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm#Andrew-Kingoff
The One True Zhen Jue - 20 Jan 2008 20:58 GMT
> "MCS is caused by the fear of chemicals, not the
> actual chemicals in question."

You've been shown the research, Ilena.  The belief that one has been
exposed, not actual exposure, is what triggers the symptoms.
Repeated clinical trials have shown this.  Why does that bother you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity#Psychological_causes

Psychological causes
Several mechanisms for psychological etiology have been proposed
including theories based on stress, Pavlovian conditioning, or
misdiagnoses of an underlying mental illness. Behavior exhibited by
MCS sufferers may reflect broader sociological fears about industrial
pollution.[26]

It's difficult to differentiate psychological and physiological
etiologies of MCS because substances used to test for sensitivity can
often be detected by scent. Odor cues make double blind studies of MCS
patients difficult, and scents might provoke a psychosomatic response.
Research by Dr Mariko Saito et al from the Department of Psychosomatic
Medicine at the University of Tokyo in 2005 found that patients only
experienced symptoms when they themselves initiated the challenge
tests. When they were given random prompts, there was no difference
between MCS patients and controls in terms of physical and psychologic
symptoms.[27] Their conclusion was "MCS patients do not have either
somatic or psychologic symptoms under chemical-free conditions, and
symptoms may be provoked only when exposed to chemicals," although
their results showed that it was not the chemicals themselves that
caused the symptoms.

A review of 37 provocation studies concluded that "persons with MCS do
react to chemical challenges; however, these responses occur when they
can discern differences between active and sham substances, suggesting
that the mechanism of action is not specific to the chemical itself
and might be related to expectations and prior beliefs".[28] Critics
of such provocation studies assert that they are inconclusive because
they often employ masking odors which themselves are alleged to
trigger MCS. At least one study attempted to correct for this problem
by only using patients who do not respond to the masking odor, and
this provocation study similarly showed no correlation between
symptoms and chemical exposure.[29]

Another study found strong evidence of a placebo effect: purported MCS
sufferers claimed symptoms in nonblinded tests when fed suspected food
extracts, but were unable to produce symptoms consistently when the
tests were doubleblinded; similarly, patients responded identically to
"treatments" and saline.[30]

Science rejects mind-body dualism, so the distinction between
physiological and psychological causes is difficult to test.[28
Jan Drew - 22 Jan 2008 02:08 GMT
> "MCS is caused by the fear of chemicals, not the
> actual chemicals in question."

You've been shown the research, Ilena.  The belief that one has been
exposed, not actual exposure, is what triggers the symptoms.
Repeated clinical trials have shown this.  Why does that bother you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity#Psychological_causes

Psychological causes
Several mechanisms for psychological etiology have been proposed
including theories based on stress, Pavlovian conditioning, or
misdiagnoses of an underlying mental illness. Behavior exhibited by
MCS sufferers may reflect broader sociological fears about industrial
pollution.[26]

It's difficult to differentiate psychological and physiological
etiologies of MCS because substances used to test for sensitivity can
often be detected by scent. Odor cues make double blind studies of MCS
patients difficult, and scents might provoke a psychosomatic response.
Research by Dr Mariko Saito et al from the Department of Psychosomatic
Medicine at the University of Tokyo in 2005 found that patients only
experienced symptoms when they themselves initiated the challenge
tests. When they were given random prompts, there was no difference
between MCS patients and controls in terms of physical and psychologic
symptoms.[27] Their conclusion was "MCS patients do not have either
somatic or psychologic symptoms under chemical-free conditions, and
symptoms may be provoked only when exposed to chemicals," although
their results showed that it was not the chemicals themselves that
caused the symptoms.

A review of 37 provocation studies concluded that "persons with MCS do
react to chemical challenges; however, these responses occur when they
can discern differences between active and sham substances, suggesting
that the mechanism of action is not specific to the chemical itself
and might be related to expectations and prior beliefs".[28] Critics
of such provocation studies assert that they are inconclusive because
they often employ masking odors which themselves are alleged to
trigger MCS. At least one study attempted to correct for this problem
by only using patients who do not respond to the masking odor, and
this provocation study similarly showed no correlation between
symptoms and chemical exposure.[29]

Another study found strong evidence of a placebo effect: purported MCS

sufferers claimed symptoms in nonblinded tests when fed suspected food
extracts, but were unable to produce symptoms consistently when the
tests were doubleblinded; similarly, patients responded identically to
"treatments" and saline.[30]

Science rejects mind-body dualism, so the distinction between
physiological and psychological causes is difficult to test.[28

WIKIPEDIA MAKES NO GUARANTEE OF VALIDITY

USE WIKIPEDIA AT YOUR OWN RISK
PLEASE BE AWARE THAT ANY INFORMATION YOU MAY FIND IN WIKIPEDIA MAY BE
INACCURATE, MISLEADING, DANGEROUS OR ILLEGAL.

WIKIPEDIA DOES NOT GIVE MEDICAL ADVICE
Wikipedia contains articles on many medical topics; however, no warranty
whatsoever is made that any of the articles are accurate. There is
absolutely no assurance that any statement contained or cited in an article
touching on medical matters is true, correct, precise, or up-to-date. The
overwhelming majority of such articles are written, in part or in whole, by
nonprofessionals. Even if a statement made about medicine is accurate, it
may not apply to you or your symptoms.

The medical information provided on Wikipedia is, at best, of a general
nature and cannot substitute for the advice of a medical professional (for
instance, a qualified doctor/physician, nurse, pharmacist/chemist, and so
on). Wikipedia is not a doctor.

None of the individual contributors, system operators, developers, sponsors
of Wikipedia nor anyone else connected to Wikipedia can take any
responsibility for the results or consequences of any attempt to use or
adopt any of the information presented on this web site.

Nothing on Wikipedia.org or included as part of any project of Wikimedia
Foundation Inc., should be construed as an attempt to offer or render a
medical opinion or otherwise engage in the practice of medicine.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Medical_disclaimer"

Wikipedia Founder Discourages Academic Use of His Creation
What kind of idiot cites Wikipedia? The point of citation is to hold an
individual responsible, or to give credit to an individual. The nature of
Wikipedia is collaborative, and thus non-static and in constant flux. There
is simply no credit to give, and thus no accountability for the truth of the
arguments. I appreciate Wales suggestions - it is quite good (I use it all
the time) for broad overviews of unfamiliar topics. It has its place, but an
academic source it is not.
Debbee - 22 Jan 2008 08:43 GMT
Don't you have a Mathematics degree??
Exactly what is your personal experience with MCS patients?

Anyone can post studies---how does anyone know if they real
or made up?

According to Rootdown, if you aren't playing on Rootdown, you are
with your patients.

Then what are you doing about subjects--shouldn't you either be on
Rootdown or with your patients....

If not, you'd better edit your Rootdown pages, otherwise you are
lying!
The One True Zhen Jue - 22 Jan 2008 12:57 GMT
> Don't you have a Mathematics degree??

No, my original degree is in Psychology

> Exactly what is your personal experience with MCS patients?

What do you mean?

> Anyone can post studies---how does anyone know if they real
> or made up?

I think David Wright has explained that clearly enough to the MHA
readers.
You rememember; peer review & replication are a big part of validating
studies.

> According to Rootdown, if you aren't playing on Rootdown, you are
> with your patients.

Well, that is because Rootdown doesn't have my complete, official
schedule.  The secret service doesn't want to make it easy to track
such a high-value target as myself.  Its a national security thing,
dontcha know?

> Then what are you doing about subjects--shouldn't you either be on
> Rootdown or with your patients....

Subjects?  You mean the "subject" that claimed she set off metal
detectors from heavy metals in her blood stream?

> If not, you'd better edit your Rootdown pages, otherwise you are
> lying!
Debbee - 24 Jan 2008 15:48 GMT
On Jan 22, 4:57 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> >Debbee:   Exactly what is your personal experience with MCS patients?
>
>Kingoff:   What do you mean?

Just exactly what is your personal experience with the MCS patients?
You claim that
this is caused by the "fear of chemicals," where did you get this
information?  It is simply
in my opinion "not true."

> >Debbee: Anyone can post studies---how does anyone know if they real
> > or made up?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> You rememember; peer review & replication are a big part of validating
> studies.

Interestingly, there are not a lot of studies in the peer reviewed
journals with
reference to MCS.  However, there are a lot of books about MCS from
people that
have studied this, and researched the information.  And there are some
studies that
talk about a psychiatry drug that claims to be the "cure all."  I
tried one of those
drugs and got worse.  It was almost as bad as taking prednisone!

> >Debbee:  According to Rootdown, if you aren't playing on Rootdown, you are
> > with your patients.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> such a high-value target as myself.  Its a national security thing,
> dontcha know?

I got an email from someone that claimed that she had tried to track
you
down but you were never in the office.  Name was Mary Fuller.  Ring
any
bells?

> >Debbee Then what are you doing about subjects--shouldn't you either be on
> > Rootdown or with your patients....
>
> Kingoff: Subjects?  You mean the "subject" that claimed she set off metal
> detectors from heavy metals in her blood stream?

Andrew, I am going to tell you one more time.  There were witnesses to
that
event.  It was rather embarrassing to say the least.  And as I finally
understood
it, it had to do with my iron level at the time.  Conventional doctors
did not understand
it either--it took a physics professor  to finally fully explain it.
The One True Zhen Jue - 24 Jan 2008 18:06 GMT
> On Jan 22, 4:57 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> information?  It is simply
> in my opinion "not true."

I've posted my sources.  You probably remember Mark Thorson's postings
of properly controlled, replicated trials.

> > >Debbee: Anyone can post studies---how does anyone know if they real
> > > or made up?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> journals with
> reference to MCS.

Yes, I've posted them.  Their conclusions form of the basis of my
view.  Replicated studies show that the belief one is being exposed is
the trigger, not the actual exposure.

 However, there are a lot of books about MCS from
> people that
> have studied this, and researched the information.  And there are some
> studies that
> talk about a psychiatry drug that claims to be the "cure all."  I
> tried one of those
> drugs and got worse.  It was almost as bad as taking prednisone!

Unfortunately, psychiatric conditions are notoriously difficult to
treat.  Don't let one bad incident sour your on the idea of seeking
psychiatric treatment, as needed.

> > >Debbee:  According to Rootdown, if you aren't playing on Rootdown, you are
> > > with your patients.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> any
> bells?

Nope.  Perhaps she has stopped at my former office.  My sign may still
be up.
Anyone who really wants to track me down can let their fingers do the
walking.

> > >Debbee Then what are you doing about subjects--shouldn't you either be on
> > > Rootdown or with your patients....
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> that
> event.

Witnesses to what?  Witnesses to you claiming that a doctor had a
metal detector in his office that he used to show you had excessively
high concentrations of heavy metals?  Witnesses to you walking through
an airport metal detector and causing it to beep?  Heck, that happens
to me every so often.  There are no witnesses to you having LD 100
doses of iron or what ever metals you care to lie about.  You could
not survive the levels of metal required to set off airline metal
detectors.

> It was rather embarrassing to say the least.

It should be quite embarrassing to continue to pushing this lie,
Debbee.  It did not happen.

 And as I finally
> understood
> it, it had to do with my iron level at the time.  Conventional doctors
> did not understand
> it either--it took a physics professor  to finally fully explain it.

We aren't as credulous as you'd like us to be.  Sorry, you just can't
push that turd on the MHA faithful.

> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Debbee - 25 Jan 2008 04:51 GMT
On Jan 24, 10:06 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> just babbled--so I snipped it.

Andrew, this is not the aerobics class---that is down the hall.
If you want to bend and twist--and even stretch...please go down the
hall to Room J
The One True Zhen Jue - 25 Jan 2008 15:54 GMT
> On Jan 24, 10:06 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> If you want to bend and twist--and even stretch...please go down the
> hall to Room J

Debbee, if this were an aerobics class, you'd be nowhere to be found!
Debbee - 25 Jan 2008 15:57 GMT
On Jan 25, 7:54 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Debbee, if this were an aerobics class, you'd be nowhere to be found!

This is not an aerobics class, and guess what, I do aerobics.....
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.