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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / January 2008

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More on Vitamin C

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Peter Moran - 13 Jan 2008 07:20 GMT
<drceephd@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:38219a5a-501a-4932-ab21-5deb1de30e6e@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 12, 7:19 pm, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote:

> PM I have read all their literature, or close enough to it.
>
> Also, whenever you think you can expose one of my supposed lies, feel free
> to do so.
>
> PM- Hide quoted text -

>Isn't this wonderful.  Mainstream medicine has chosen to waste time by
>ignoring the years of research posted in the Journal of Orthomolecular
>Medicine concerning the use of IV vitamin C.

>I also found these comments in the Orthomolecular Archives:
>
>"He (Pauling ) encouraged Ewan Cameron in Scotland to investigate what
>were then enormous doses ( of vitamin C ) with 10 gms IV in a series
>of failed ( standard therapy ) cancer patients."  " The results were
>encouraging and led to the book "Vitamin C and Cancer."

>As you can read Petey the Moron, they used large doses of vitamin C
>IV... I repeat IV.  You are lying out your arse.

PM  (Trying to ignore constant abuse for the sake of those who wish to learn
something) When I said  "Most of  Cameron and Campbell's patients  (that
impressed Pauling) also only had oral Vitamin C"  that is EXACTLY the
material I am referring to.  Next time, before you accuse me of lying,  make
sure *you* have read the original sources!
Only eight out of the 40 Cameron patients described in detail in that book
are mentioned as having IV vitamin C and then for only a few days before
switching to oral administration.

At that time there was no reason to assume the effects  would be different
if used IV .   In fact, in 1974,  when publishing their main results,
Cameron and Campbell stated "With increasing experience, we now tend to
believe that the intravenous regime is probably unnecessary as a routine
measure, and need only be employed in clinical situations, where vomiting,
anorexia, or other complications of malignancy preclude oral
administration."  (This is from "The Orthomolecular Treatment of Cancer ll,
Ewan Cameron And Alan Campbell.   Chem.Biol. Interactions, 9 (1974) 285-315)

Their results also certainly never suggested any dramatic overall benefits
from the use of vitamin C with only 7% of their patients surviving for 500
days.

>It has been found that doses of up to 100g of vitamin C twice weekly
>IV is needed to reach therapeutic dose levels.  These levels cannot be
>reached orally.  Oral vitamin C is for maintainance level doses.

PM Cameron and Campbell *never* used more than 10G IV per day.   So either
Cameron and Campbell were wrong about the dose needed or the present Vitamin
C theorists are wrong.  You can't have it both ways.

PM
drceephd@insightbb.com - 13 Jan 2008 18:39 GMT
> <drcee...@insightbb.com> wrote in message

> PM

This is the quote I gave from the Orthomolecular site: "He (Pauling )
encouraged Ewan Cameron in Scotland to investigate what
were then enormous doses ( of vitamin C ) with 10 gms IV in a series
of failed ( standard therapy ) cancer patients."  " The results were
encouraging and led to the book "Vitamin C and Cancer."

You will note that nothing is said about oral administration which
your comment is focused upon.  I also read "encouraging" and not
"discouraging" results.

I have read somewhere that Cameron's patients not only had a better
quality of life,but lived far longer than 550 days, perhaps 10x as
long when the proper amounts of vitamin C were given in the proper
manner.

Secondly, you avoided this paper:

Clinical and Experimental Experiences with Intravenous Vitamin C -
N.H. RIORDAN, PA-C; H.D. RIORDAN, M.D.; J.P. CASCIARI, Ph.D.

available at the Orthomolecular site under "cancer vitamin C".

DrCee
Peter Moran - 13 Jan 2008 20:52 GMT
On Jan 13, 2:20 am, "Peter Moran" <pmo...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> <drcee...@insightbb.com> wrote in message

> PM

>This is the quote I gave from the Orthomolecular site: "He (Pauling )
encouraged Ewan Cameron in Scotland to investigate what
were then enormous doses ( of vitamin C ) with 10 gms IV in a series
of failed ( standard therapy ) cancer patients."  " The results were
>encouraging and led to the book "Vitamin C and Cancer."

PM But that is just not true.  It is a rewriting of history by those who
don't want to admit that there is a serious conflict here (desc ribed by me
in what you have edited out). .   The proof is that when the Mayo clinic
performed its first Vitamin C study Pauling did not criticise it for failing
to use IV vitamin C.  He criticised it because some of the patients had
receieved chemotherapy, which he thoutgh might reduce its effect.  So a
second study was performed, again only using ORAL vitamin C.

>You will note that nothing is said about oral administration which
>your comment is focused upon.  I also read "encouraging" and not
>"discouraging" results.

>I have read somewhere that Cameron's patients not only had a better
quality of life,but lived far longer than 550 days, perhaps 10x as
long when the proper amounts of vitamin C were given in the proper
>manner.

PM You are probably thinking of Hoffer's work  but he also always used oral
vitamin C .

>Secondly, you avoided this paper:

> Clinical and Experimental Experiences with Intravenous Vitamin C -
>N.H. RIORDAN, PA-C; H.D. RIORDAN, M.D.; J.P. CASCIARI, Ph.D.
available at the Orthomolecular site under "cancer vitamin C".

PM I didn't avoid it.   I am also entirely familiar with Riordan's work.  It
bears no resemblance whatsoever to what these earlier reserachers believed
and did and  includes the  tacit acceptance that Pauling, Cameron and
Campbell Hoffer and all the other early megavitmain proponents were quite
wrong in teh way they used the vitamin.

PM Incidentally I happen to accept the possibility that vitamin C may have
some effect on cancer in rare cases.   The evidence for it is a tad better
than it is for other "alternaitve" methods.  But I am quite sure it is does
not work for many.

PM Thankyou for your more polite tone.

PM
drceephd@insightbb.com - 14 Jan 2008 01:37 GMT
Let's compare your conclusions to those presented by Riordan, et al,
in "Clinical and Experimental Experiences with Intravenous Vitamin C",
JOM, vol. 15, no4, 2000.

In part the authors state in their conclusions: " We have presented
evidence that vitamin
C may be useful in the treatment of cancer."  " Concentrations of
vitamin C that kill tumor cells can be achieved in humans using
intravenous vitamin C  infusions." "Some cancer patients have had
complete remissions after high-dose intravenous vitamin C infusions."

Compare these results and others to standard oncology where the
patient will be told to go home and die.

I would agree that vitamin C, by itself, may not cure cancer as
Vitamin C can with scurvy.  It may, however, provide for a less
painful recovery and provide for a much longer life.

However, combine vitamin C with correct nutrition, detoxification,
alkalinization of the tissues, meditation, and other "altie"
methodologies can probably "cure" any cancerous condition.

DrCee
Peter Moran - 14 Jan 2008 05:09 GMT
> Let's compare your conclusions to those presented by Riordan, et al,
> in "Clinical and Experimental Experiences with Intravenous Vitamin C",
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> intravenous vitamin C  infusions." "Some cancer patients have had
> complete remissions after high-dose intravenous vitamin C infusions."

PM I have stated here before the reasons behind my low expectations of
ultra-high dose IV Vitamin C.  Firstly it has been widely used over the last
year or so since this new information appeared about the poor absorption of
oral Vitamin C and the very high concentrations needed to kill cancer cells
in tissue culture,  without any impressive anecdotal material appearing on
web sites or on newsgroups.

Secondly Riordan's own results are not very impressive.   In June 2004 he
published seven "best cases" accumulated over a period of at least 14 years
of using IV Vitamin C.   Several of these had been published previously, so
that this is presumably the sum total of his impressive cases out of 14
years oif use.

They are a better quality of case than those usually supplied within
alternative medicine, but some still leave doubt.   Two were remissions of
pulmonary secondaries from kidney cancer, whixh is one of the cancers that
does have a high rate of sponataneous remission especially after treatment
of the primary cancer, as appears to appply to one of the cases.   One case
of colon cancer received chemotherapy in addition to vitamin C.  One case of
pancreatic cancer died but was thought to have lived longer than usual.  One
was a non-Hodgkins lymphoma treated primarily by radiotherapy where the
Vitamin C may have affected cervical lymph nodes.   Another case of NHL
received chemotherapy  and it is not clear from the story that this was not
fully responsible for the remission.  The other was a patient with
metastatic breast cancer that was thought to have had resolution of "several
skull metastases".  She died within six months of pathological fracture,
presumably due to continued secondary cancer.

This is not a lot to show for 14 years of use.   It is only because the
cases are well-documented and published that they are worth taking some
notice of, while reserving final judgement until the treatment is tested out
under more controlled conditions.

> Compare these results and others to standard oncology where the
> patient will be told to go home and die.

Patients are not "sent home to die", and it is not yet known that these
results are different to those possible in "standard oncology".   Cancer is
a very predictable disease, but only at about the 95-99% level over all,
with some cancers being quite unpredictable.

> I would agree that vitamin C, by itself, may not cure cancer as
> Vitamin C can with scurvy.  It may, however, provide for a less
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> alkalinization of the tissues, meditation, and other "altie"
> methodologies can probably "cure" any cancerous condition.

Brave words, and something should be very easily demonstrated.   However
most  patients and practitioners using alternatives use combinations of
treatments like this, but they still find it difficult to produce instances
of cancer response.

PM

> DrCee
 
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