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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / January 2008

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Study "Disproving" Mercury-Autism Link Published in Journal with Financial Ties to Vaccine Manufacturers

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Jan Drew - 10 Jan 2008 05:25 GMT
NewsTarget.com printable article
Originally published January 9 2008
Study "Disproving" Mercury-Autism Link Published in Journal with Financial
Ties to Vaccine Manufacturers
by Mike Adams

(NewsTarget) While the mainstream press is widely reporting a new study
"disproving" any link between autism and mercury-containing thimerosal in
vaccines, no one has bothered to point out that the study was published in a
medical journal stacked full of ads from the very same drug companies that
manufacture and market vaccines. The Journal, the Archives of General
Psychiatry, is the pro-drug psychiatric arm of the American Medical
Association, a pill-pushing organization tarnished by a history of
conspiracy against alternative medicine and the promotion of toxic
substances like cigarettes with full-page ads in its flagship publication,
JAMA.

From the outset, the fact that this study appears in a pro-drug,
pro-psychiatry journal should bring pause to any scientific-minded person.
There is obviously a serious conflict of interest here, especially if this
study is to be taken as "fact" and applied to public health policy. There
also need to be a close look at any financial links between the researchers
involved in this study and various vaccine manufacturers, as virtually all
pro-drug "science" (if you can call it that) being published these days is
influenced by Big Pharma money.

The only truly honest, independent, peer-reviewed medical journal operating
today is PLoS Medicine, an open-source journal that takes no money from drug
companies. Notice that the autism/mercury link study did not appear in PLoS
Medicine? No, it had to be published with a home field advantage in a
pro-drug publication that maintains a strong bias in favor of
pharmaceuticals and chemicals.

Junk science and faulty conclusions
Aside from these obvious and worrisome conflicts of interest, the
conclusions being made about autism and vaccines in the mainstream media are
simply not supported by the study. The (distorted) logic we're hearing goes
like this:

Yes, vaccines used to contain mercury. And yes, all those little kids were
injected with mercury. And yes, autism rates skyrocketed. But then when the
mercury was taken out of the vaccines, the autism rates didn't come back
down. Therefore, the logic goes, vaccines are safe!

This is such sloppy cause/effect logic that it makes the idiot CNN Health
editors who published a story about "junk foods being good for your waist"
look like sheer geniuses!

What's wrong with the logic? Consider the use of mercury in the vaccines: It
was used as a preservative chemical to prevent vaccine spoilage. When the
mercury was removed, it was replaced with other preservative chemicals that
are also toxic to the human nervous system. Thus, the continuing increase in
autism rates following vaccination may be due to the toxic chemicals that
replaced thimerosal. While mercury injections probably initiated the
increase in autism, the toxic substance has been replaced with other
dangerous chemicals that are continuing to increase the risk of autism.

Here's an example to explain this a bit more:

We all know that sodium nitrite in processed meat causes cancer, right?
Well, let's say that for ten years, somebody feeds all the kids sodium
nitrite and cancer rates skyrocket. Then, they take all the sodium nitrite
out of the food and replace it with a different cancer-causing chemical that
they keep feeding the kids. Guess what? The cancer rates don't come down.
Therefore, the logic goes, sodium nitrite didn't cause cancer in the first
place!

Notice that when mercury was removed from vaccines (which is not entirely
true, by the way, bringing into question yet more details about this study),
the rates of autism did not drop? This means the vaccines remain dangerous
to children. Autism continued to climb right alongside vaccination rates,
indicating the possibility that something in the vaccines (or a combination
of various chemicals) may very well be responsible for the increase. Based
on the fact that thimerosal was replaced with other toxic chemicals in the
vaccines, there is absolutely no scientific way to clear thimerosal of any
harmful effects. There are too many variables operating now, and no study
can isolate one variable (thimerosal) out of many and prove it to be
harmless.

The truth is that scientists have no idea what's causing autism. They
acknowledge the alarming increase in the rates of autism now being observed
in the population, but with this new study, they claim, "Mercury is safe!"

Let me add this study to the enormous stack of other B.S. studies from
modern medical researchers. Let's see, I have a study here that declares
aspartame to be safe. A second study in my database says that Vioxx is safe.
Another study says Teflon is safe. And yet another study claims that
cigarette smoke doesn't cause lung cancer or heart disease! In fact, for
virtually every toxic chemical created by industry, there's a B.S. study
proclaiming its safety! The history of science is full of such nonsense, all
funded or influenced by the corporations that manufacture and sell these
toxic chemicals or drugs.

The fact that industry has managed to create yet another study declaring a
toxic substance (thimerosal) to be safe when injected into children is
certainly not surprising. This is an industry that is not bound by the rules
of logic, ethics or common scientific sense. It simply finds ways to
influence researchers, cherry pick studies and distort science to get
whatever results it wants. That's how we're now hearing things like,
"Mercury is safe to inject into children!" -- an idea that's utterly absurd
at any dose.

What the mercury / vaccine study actually proves
Even if you believe the results of this study, it only demonstrates that
removing mercury from vaccines does not reduce vaccine toxicity to children.
Autism rates are still on the rise, right along with vaccination rates.
Multiple toxic chemicals and substances are contained in vaccines, and the
mercury in thimerosal may have simply been one factor among many.

The only reasonable, scientifically-minded conclusion we can draw from the
study is that removing mercury from vaccines does not reduce autism in
children. If removing thimerosal from vaccines made them safer, we should
have seen autism rates go down, but we did not! Autism rates continued to
climb in direct correlation to vaccination rates, indicating that mercury is
not the only toxic substance causing neurological problems in children.

Notice, carefully, that this is nothing close to what's being reported in
the mainstream media, where headlines are blaring junk science nonsense
like, "Vaccines pose no risk for autism" (San Jose Mercury News) and
"Thimerosal Does Not Cause Autism" (Slashdot, which should know better).
Even WIRED News got it wrong with: "California Study Finds No Link Between
Vaccines, Autism."

The correct headline should be, "Removal of Mercury From Vaccines Fails to
Halt Rise in Autism."

Or, "Removing Mercury From Vaccines Does Not Make Them Safer."

Nobody reported that. Apparently, telling the truth about research involving
vaccines is not a popular option in the mainstream media (MSM).
Businessweek, publishing a HealthDay report by Randy Dotinga, invokes
particularly bad logic with this opening statement, "Adding to a growing
body of evidence that rejects the idea that immunizations boost autism
rates, a new study finds no proof that incidences of the disorder dropped
after makers of most childhood vaccines stopped using a mercury-based
preservative in their products."

Huh? How does a study focused only on mercury "reject the idea that
immunizations boost autism rates?" Did the author of that report not notice
that autism rates continue to increase as vaccination rates go up?
Eliminating one chemical from the causative factors does not in any way
clear the safety of all the other chemicals or ingredients used in vaccines.

The mainstream media, which repeatedly demonstrates astonishing ignorance on
issues of nutrition and health, also seems to have very little ability to
interpret scientific studies and reach reasoned conclusions about what those
studies do or do not prove.

Was the vaccine study another example of corrupt science?
Besides, this entire discussion is based on the idea that we can trust the
research in the first place. If there's one thing we've learned about modern
medicine since watching all the Vioxx scandals, Avandia cover-ups and
scientific corruption in research circles, it's that drug companies can help
create whatever research conclusions they want.

And let's face it: Big Pharma will always produce science that protects its
profits. Gee, Big Tobacco came up with all sorts of research that said
tobacco smoke wasn't harmful and nicotine wasn't addictive. Some of that
research appeared in peer-reviewed medical journals, too. Does that mean the
research was scientifically accurate and "conclusive?" Of course not. It was
just plain old junk science, hijacked by a powerful corporation with a clear
profit motive.

If all that sounds familiar, it's because drug companies are playing the
same game with science today that Big Tobacco played decades ago: Influence
the science, bury the bad news and propagandize the good news. It's the
oldest play in the spin book, and Big Pharma has patterned it perfectly from
Big Tobacco.

You see, the relevant question in this discussion is not simply whether
mercury-containing vaccines cause autism. The question at hand is whether we
can even trust the "science" being conducted on this subject. Do the
researchers who conducted this study have any financial ties to the
manufacturers of those vaccines? Have they received any speaking fees? Do
they own stock in those companies? If so, this completely discredits their
research due to obvious conflicts of interest.

Now, I don't have any direct evidence that the researchers in this
particular mercury vaccine study were corrupted or influenced by Big Pharma,
but as an honest, independent think who knows the truth about drug
companies, the mainstream media and the profit motive behind much of the
science appearing in the press today, I maintain a default position of
skepticism when it comes to reading these studies.

By default, I distrust the drug companies and any so-called "research" that
claims injecting mercury into the bodies of children is harmless. That
should be the default position held by any rational person who understands
basic human biochemistry. Toxic chemicals and heavy metals must be
distrusted from the outset.

The drug and chemical industries, notably, take precisely the opposite
approach. To them, all chemicals and drugs are safe until proven dangerous.
This is how dangerous drugs get released into the marketplace and only
recalled after tens of millions of prescriptions have been written and many
thousands of people have died. The drug companies routinely treat the
population as drug testing guinea pigs, and the used of vaccines on children
is no different.

I find it interesting that genuine scientific skepticism seems to vanish
when the topic shifts to pharmaceuticals. Sure, all the skeptics and quack
critics will go to town on topics like acupuncture, mind-body medicine or
even the efficacy of botanical medicines, but when the discussion turns to
things like mercury in vaccines or amphetamine drugs for kids with ADHD, all
such skepticism immediately vanishes. They accept the safety and efficacy of
such treatments without question. Rational thought is rapidly discarded.
Vaccines simply must be safe. Why? Because everybody else in the medical
industry says so!

Were the journalists injected with mercury, too?
With this whole charade about a study "disproving" any link between mercury
and vaccines, the modern medical industry has once again shown its infantile
intellect and its utter lack or scientific integrity or clear-headed
skepticism. Is this study really the best they can come up with? A study
that shows absolutely no drop in autism rates when ingredients are
reformulated in vaccines? A study that didn't even attempt to take into
account the other toxic ingredients in vaccines?

This is the new standard of "conclusive" science in medicine today?

Give me a break. The only thing that can be conclusively derived from
observing all this is that mainstream media journalists continue to function
at a very low level of scientific literacy, lacking any skills of mental
reason by which scientific studies might be assessed. There is no thought
that has gone into the media's reporting of this story; only bandwagon
parroting of each other's bad conclusions of a study that, in reality,
proves nothing. It's yet another hilarious mainstream media circle jerk, and
the fact that so many people keep buying this dim-witted reporting just
proves that this nation remains woefully deficient in basic science
education.

One point worth mentioning here is that there is absolutely no requirement
to have any real understanding of science, medicine, chemistry or physics to
graduate from a top-notch journalism school. And when journalists have no
idea what they're talking about, they go the default route and simply
rewrite whatever was e-mailed to them in the corporate press release! Thus,
modern skills of journalism do not require any independent thought
whatsoever. They only require the ability to rephrase something already told
to them by the spinmeisters at Corporation X.

Correct me if I'm wrong: Is there a single mainstream reporter -- even
one? -- that reported the correct conclusion from this vaccine research?

I challenge you to find one. I've looked. There isn't one.

The dumbing down of the mainstream media is now complete. I can't wait to
see what headlines will come next:

"Prescription Drugs That Killed Patients Found Innocent Since Patients Did
Not Come Back to Life After the Drugs Were Removed"

Or:

"Radiation From Mammograms Found Harmless Because Death Rates Continued to
Climb Even After Mammography was Halted"

Or my favorite: "Ephedra Herb Banned After Ten Deaths; Drugs Are Safer
Because They Only Kill 100,000 Americans a Year"

I'm beginning to wonder if all the journalists have been injected with
mercury.

http://www.newstarget.com/z022479.html
Carole - 10 Jan 2008 06:59 GMT
> NewsTarget.com printable article
> Originally published January 9 2008
[quoted text clipped - 258 lines]
>
> http://www.newstarget.com/z022479.html

Good find Jan.

Carole
www.cellsalts.net
Jeff - 10 Jan 2008 12:45 GMT
> "Jan Drew" <jdrew1374@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

<...>

> Good find Jan.
>
> Carole
> www.cellsalts.net

That comes from a seller of "cell salts." The table about the 12
essential cell salts show a total lack of understanding of physiology
and chemistry that it would be laughable if people didn't believe that
crap and waste their money on it.

Speaking of crap, the only thing this "find" (Jan's article) would be
good for is if you printed this and you're in the woods and need
something to substitute for toilet paper.

I haven't seen such anger unleashed in a long while. I guess the author
  of the article is increasingly mad that his conjecture that autism is
caused by vaccines is being shown time and again to be wrong.

In the New England Journal of Medicine, there was an article showing
that about 1% of kids with autism have specific mutations in then. This
indicates that in some cases, there may be a genetic component as well
as gives some ideas who to better understand how autism develops.

Jeff
bae@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu - 10 Jan 2008 22:09 GMT
>In the New England Journal of Medicine, there was an article showing
>that about 1% of kids with autism have specific mutations in then. This
>indicates that in some cases, there may be a genetic component as well
>as gives some ideas who to better understand how autism develops.

The genetic component is substantially higher than that.  If you do a
search in OMIM (via PubMed), you'll get 104 hits for autism.  It appears
that there are a number of genes that can contribute to a susceptibility
to autism, and people with autism often have relatives with some
degree of autism spectrum disorder or pervasive developmental disorder.
There's also a strong correlation in monozygotic twins.  Some of these
genes are X-linked, which may explain the higher incidence in males,
but most are autosomal, and probably recessives, which may explain the
milder forms in relatives.  The whole picture is unclear, since there
are strong epistatic influences (i.e. two people homozygous for the same
susceptibility gene may have widely different severity because other
genes contribute to or counteract the condition).

There's definitely an environmental component as well, since people with
autism are statistically more likely to have had difficult births or
other trauma, prenatal or postnatal.  This, plus the epistatic phenomenon
is why the genes involved are referred to as causing 'susceptibility to
autism' rather than autism per se.

A 'cure' for autism is unlikely, but genetic tests to advise couples
about the risks of having an autistic child may help prevent such children
from being conceived, or make it possible to identify babies at risk, so
earlier intervention can be applied to help the child.  Better therapies
will help, too.

The apparent increase in autism is a statistical artefact.  The number
of children diagnosed as 'retarded' plus those diagnosed as 'autistic'
hasn't changed.  What's changed is that better diagnosis identifies
many children as autistic who would otherwise have been diagnosed as
retarded.  This is a good thing, since there are methods that can help
the autistic to have better lives.  Ditto, most of the forms of autism
spectrum disorder weren't diagnosed at all, except as 'weird kid' or
'stupid kid' or 'uncooperative kid' or 'disobedient kid'.

The correlation with thimersol has long been known to be completely
spurious.  Many countries stopped using thimersol in vaccines as long
as fifteen years before this happened in the US, with zero effect on
the rate of autism, other than the same increase due to better diagnosis.

Note that autism has been observed for centuries, both in 'idiot savants'
and in 'changelings'.  In the latter, people believed that their child
had been stolen by fairies or other mythical creatures and replaced
by something that looked just like the child but lacked a soul -- i.e.
unable to interact normally with other human beings.  

I'm not a medical geneticist, but I'm interested in the topic.  You
can access OMIM at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez, select
OMIM from the toolbar or drop down menu.
Jan Drew - 11 Jan 2008 03:09 GMT
>> "Jan Drew" <jdrew1374@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

> <...>
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> the article is increasingly mad that his conjecture that autism is caused
> by vaccines is being shown time and again to be wrong.

Poor Jeffrey Peter Joseph Utz, M.D.
jeff...@juno.com
[2007] "Robert Watson" kidsdoc2...@hotmail.com
Jeff Utz  jtest-u...@juno.com
Jeff Utz, M.D. jeff...@juno.com
Jeffrey P. Utz, M.D. jeff...@softhome.net   Hence "Putz"
http://www.msu.edu/~utz/  u...@pilot.msu.edu
Jeffrey Peter, M.D. kidsdoc2...@hotmail.com
Wyle E. Coyote wyle_e_coyot...@hotmail.com
Jeff Utz  kidsdoc2...@hotmail.com (Jan 2003)
Jeff jef...@pacbell.net
Jeff j...@hotmail.com (2007)

Calls telling it like it is *anger*.

> In the New England Journal of Medicine, there was an article showing that
> about 1% of kids with autism have specific mutations in then. This
> indicates that in some cases, there may be a genetic component as well as
> gives some ideas who to better understand how autism develops.
>
> Jeff

>> NewsTarget.com printable article
>> Originally published January 9 2008
[quoted text clipped - 342 lines]
> Carole
> www.cellsalts.net
Carole - 11 Jan 2008 08:06 GMT
> > "Jan Drew" <jdrew1374@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> and chemistry that it would be laughable if people didn't believe that
> crap and waste their money on it.

She sells cellsalts by the sea shore.
Sorry mate, that was a joke ... I don't sell them, I'm just a user not a
scientist ...and thank heavens for that, judging by the amount of
disinformation you lot have seen fit to swallow.
But as long as you get your little bit of paper, that's all that matters,
hey?

Carole
www.cellsalts.net

> Speaking of crap, the only thing this "find" (Jan's article) would be
> good for is if you printed this and you're in the woods and need
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Jeff
Jeff - 11 Jan 2008 14:01 GMT
>>> "Jan Drew" <jdrew1374@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>> <...>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> scientist ...and thank heavens for that, judging by the amount of
> disinformation you lot have seen fit to swallow.

Sorry, but you missed the point. That cellsalts.net page is full of
disinformation. One who has had any high school chemistry and physiology
would be able to see that sodium phosphate and chloride is two salts,
not one. And sodium chloride (taken as homepoathic only) is distilled water.

> But as long as you get your little bit of paper, that's all that matters,
> hey?

What little bit of paper? If you are implying that I financially benefit
at all from postings, you're quite mistaken. And, I have no ties to any
pharmaceutical company.

Jeff

> Carole
> www.cellsalts.net
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>
>> Jeff
Kevysmom - 11 Jan 2008 22:06 GMT
> In the New England Journal of Medicine, there was an article showing
> that about 1% of kids with autism have specific mutations in then. This
> indicates that in some cases, there may be a genetic component as well
> as gives some ideas who to better understand how autism develops.

Why is it some who smoke develop cancer and some do not? is it because
the ones who develop cancer have a mutation that results in cancer
when its
triggered from a toxin like those found in cigarettes?

Could the kids with Autism have a genetic mutation that when triggered
by a toxin, Causes a neurodevelopmental disorder? is that possible?

> > "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Jeff
The One True Zhen Jue - 11 Jan 2008 22:18 GMT
> > In the New England Journal of Medicine, there was an article showing
> > that about 1% of kids with autism have specific mutations in then. This
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Could the kids with Autism have a genetic mutation that when triggered
> by a toxin, Causes a neurodevelopmental disorder? is that possible?

Fact: Thimerosal is not a toxin.  You've been told this before.  Do
make a note of it.

Fact: Autism is a Genetic disorder.  It appears in both vaccinated and
unvaccinated populations.  It appears amongst those vaccinated with or
without Thimerosal.

Fact: Thimerosal is a safe preservative that lowers the cost of and
spreads the reach of Vaccination.

Fact: Vaccination has saved more lives than any other medical
innovation in history.

It is speculated that up to 90% of the population of the western
hemisphere died from small pox brought from the European settlers.  It
wasn't a sudden lapse in sanitation, a change in diet, nor fluoride in
the water.  It was a communicable disease that has been ELIMINATED by
vaccination.

Now, can you dig it?
Jeff - 11 Jan 2008 22:38 GMT
<...>

> Fact: Vaccination has saved more lives than any other medical
> innovation in history.

Well, except for taking the toxins and other bad stuff out of water.
Clean water and proper sanitation probably saved more lives.

Vaccination has many millions additional lives, however.

> It is speculated that up to 90% of the population of the western
> hemisphere died from small pox brought from the European settlers.  It
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Now, can you dig it?

Well, not for a while. You see, thanks to vaccination, many graves that
would have been dug this year or in the past won't be dug for many years.

Jeff
The One True Zhen Jue - 11 Jan 2008 22:42 GMT
> <...>
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Well, except for taking the toxins and other bad stuff out of water.
> Clean water and proper sanitation probably saved more lives.

Not to split hairs, but I don't consider water treatment a medical
innovation.  It certainly has a great effect on health, but I see it
as being under a different heading than medicine.  In other words, the
guy who works in at the water treatment plant is not a healthcare
worker in my view....

> Vaccination has many millions additional lives, however.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Jeff
Jeff - 11 Jan 2008 22:49 GMT
>> <...>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> guy who works in at the water treatment plant is not a healthcare
> worker in my view....

Funny, on this picture of a Department of Sanitation truck, there is a
Caduceus, just above the middle axle.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/triborough/121302189/

Either way, good sanitation and vaccines have both saved many lives.

Jeff
Steven Bornfeld - 12 Jan 2008 02:51 GMT
>>> <...>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Jeff

    That's the official seal:

http://www.fotw.us/images/u/us-nycsa.gif

Steve
Kevysmom - 11 Jan 2008 23:03 GMT
> > Well, except for taking the toxins and other bad stuff out of water.
> > Clean water and proper sanitation probably saved more lives.

> Not to split hairs, but I don't consider water treatment a medical
> innovation.  It certainly has a great effect on health, but I see it
> as being under a different heading than medicine.

Ya know if Pharma seen you write this, They would fire you for
looking so stupid!

On Jan 11, 5:42 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > <...>
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
D. C. Sessions - 17 Jan 2008 12:04 GMT
>> Fact: Vaccination has saved more lives than any other medical
>> innovation in history.
>
> Well, except for taking the toxins and other bad stuff out of water.
> Clean water and proper sanitation probably saved more lives.

It comes down to the definition of "medical."
General social infrastruture improvements (e.g. the Agricultural
Revolution) undoubtedly saved countless lives, but that doesn't
make improved agriculture "medicine."

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Kevysmom - 11 Jan 2008 23:24 GMT
> Fact: Thimerosal is not a toxin.  You've been told this before.  Do
> make a note of it.

MSDS for Thimerosal..

DANGER !POISON !
MAY BE FATAL IF INHALED, ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN OR SWALLOWED.
CAUSES EYE AND SKIN IRRITATION.
CONTAINS MATERIAL WHICH CAUSES DAMAGE TO THE FOLLOWING ORGANS:
KIDNEYS, RESPIRATORY TRACT, SKIN, EYES, CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, EYE,
LENS OR CORNEA.

WARNING: This product contains a chemical(s) known to the State of
California to cause birth defects or other reproductive harm.

http://www.emdchemicals.com/analytics/doc/msds/msds-display.asp?materialid=TX0576

Please Make NOTE of it, so I don't have to post this again.

> Fact: Autism is a Genetic disorder.  It appears in both vaccinated and
> unvaccinated populations.  It appears amongst those vaccinated with or
> without Thimerosal.

Mercury is not just in vaccines.

> Fact: Thimerosal is a safe preservative that lowers the cost of and
> spreads the reach of Vaccination.

See above. And God save your soul for the lies you spread.

> Fact: Vaccination has saved more lives than any other medical
> innovation in history.

Now, How much do you get paid to repeat this lie?

> It is speculated that up to 90% of the population of the western
> hemisphere died from small pox brought from the European settlers.  It
> wasn't a sudden lapse in sanitation, a change in diet, nor fluoride in
> the water.  It was a communicable disease that has been ELIMINATED by
> vaccination.

It is speculated that Mercury has nothing to do with autism.

> Now, can you dig it?

Well you are full of it, But I am not digging it.

On Jan 11, 5:18 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > > In the New England Journal of Medicine, there was an article showing
> > > that about 1% of kids with autism have specific mutations in then. This
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jeff - 11 Jan 2008 23:45 GMT
>> Fact: Thimerosal is not a toxin.  You've been told this before.  Do
>> make a note of it.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Please Make NOTE of it, so I don't have to post this again.

Yet, water kills too. Nothing is 100% safe. Even oxygen causes problems
when given in doses that are too high (not to mention that it is
dangerous because it supports combustion).

>> Fact: Autism is a Genetic disorder.  It appears in both vaccinated and
>> unvaccinated populations.  It appears amongst those vaccinated with or
>> without Thimerosal.
>
> Mercury is not just in vaccines.

Yet, you have yet to offer any real evidence that mercury in any form
causes autism or that vaccines cause autism. Considering that the study
in California showed that decreasing the amount of mercury given in
vaccines did not reduce the incidence of autism.

>> Fact: Thimerosal is a safe preservative that lowers the cost of and
>> spreads the reach of Vaccination.
>
> See above. And God save your soul for the lies you spread.

Actually, it is true that thimerosal is a safe preservative. There is
nothing that is 100% safe. However, thimerosal, in the doses used, is a
safe preservative.

>> Fact: Vaccination has saved more lives than any other medical
>> innovation in history.
>
> Now, How much do you get paid to repeat this lie?

Excluding clean water and sanitation (which I consider a medical
innovation, but not everyone), vacciantion has saved more lives than any
other intervention. Vaccination has saved millions of lives. It
completely wiped out smallpox. And it nearly wiped out polio. It has
saved thousands of kids a year from getting hemophilus influenza
menigititis, with along resulting problems like deafness or death. It
prevents kids from getting measles, which kills about 0.05% of kids
(that 1 in 2000 - or about 1500 kids a year in the US), saves about 40
to 60 people each year from chickpox deaths.

Measles vaccine alone saves about 500,000 people year.
http://www.measlesinitiative.org/index3.asp

>> It is speculated that up to 90% of the population of the western
>> hemisphere died from small pox brought from the European settlers.  It
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It is speculated that Mercury has nothing to do with autism.

Yet there is plenty of evidence that mercury does have nothing to do
with autism, such as a lack of a proven mechanism for mercury to cause
autism, the recent genetic data as well as information human development
and neuropathology that indicate that the brains of autistic people are
damaged before birth.

>> Now, can you dig it?
>
> Well you are full of it, But I am not digging it.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want. However, the science
indicates that autism is not caused by vaccines.

The difference between your beliefs and science is that your beliefs do
not change as new data come in, while science changes to accomodate new
data.

Have a lovely weekend,

Jeff

<...>
The One True Zhen Jue - 12 Jan 2008 00:10 GMT
> > Fact: Thimerosal is not a toxin.  You've been told this before.  Do
> > make a note of it.
>
> MSDS for Thimerosal..
>
> DANGER !POISON !

Yes, like sodium & chloride, vital electrolytes, it is poisonous.
How can you not like that?

http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/msds/CH/chlorine.html

Toxicology
Toxic by inhalation, ingestion and through skin contact. Inhalation
can cause serious lung damage and may be fatal. 1000ppm (0.1%) is
likely to be fatal after a few deep breaths, and half that
concentration fatal after a few minutes. May irritate or burn skin.
OEL (8hr TWA) 1 ppm.

Of course, the first law of toxicology is that dose makes the poison.
The amount of thimerosal in vaccines is negligible.  It preserves
vaccines so that they may be made available where refrigeration is not
possible or impractical.  It extends the reach of vaccination and
improves the quality of human life by reducing fatalities and
morbidity.

> > > Fact: Autism is a Genetic disorder.  It appears in both vaccinated and
> > unvaccinated populations.  It appears amongst those vaccinated with or
> > without Thimerosal.
>
> Mercury is not just in vaccines.

Which has nothing at all to do with the FACT that Autism is a genetic
disorder.  It also has nothing to do with autism as many replicated
studies have demonstrated.  Accept it and move on with your life,
Donna.  Being angry at thimerosal is like hating zinc!

> > Fact: Thimerosal is a safe preservative that lowers the cost of and
> > spreads the reach of Vaccination.
>
> See above. And God save your soul for the lies you spread.

It is a fact and you should be more concerned about your own
salvation.  You encourage people to abandon the time-test, proven,
safe, and life saving benefits of vaccination.  You're a zealot for a
very bad cause, only slightly better than someone pushing meth on
school kids.

> > Fact: Vaccination has saved more lives than any other medical
> > innovation in history.
>
> Now, How much do you get paid to repeat this lie?

Its a fact, Donna, one that you won't even attempt to dispute.  Sure,
you'll put a trashcan over your head, strike it repeatedly with your
fists, & shout "I'm Trying Not to Hear That!".   But, you won't
attempt to present any data to support your rabid opposition to one of
humanities greatest triumphs.

> > It is speculated that up to 90% of the population of the western
> > hemisphere died from small pox brought from the European settlers.  It
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It is speculated that Mercury has nothing to do with autism.

It has been demonstrated in repeated, replicated trials that
thimerosal and vaccines have NOTHING to do with autism.  Why isn't
that good enough for someone who has ZERO data to the contrary?

> > Now, can you dig it?
>
> Well you are full of it, But I am not digging it.

No, you & your ilk (Jan, Ilena, et al) like to dig a nice Bucket
O'Feces whilst I'm full of facts.

True that!
Mark Probert - 12 Jan 2008 00:19 GMT
> > Fact: Thimerosal is not a toxin.  You've been told this before.  Do
> > make a note of it.
>
> MSDS for Thimerosal..

Industrial strength. Not vaccination strength.

Dose makes the poison.

> DANGER !POISON !
> MAY BE FATAL IF INHALED, ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN OR SWALLOWED.
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Kevysmom - 12 Jan 2008 00:31 GMT
> Industrial strength. Not vaccination strength.
>
> Dose makes the poison.

I had a VERY long conversation with Dr Myers(The Pediatric neurologist
who has studied mercury poisoning for over 20 years) One question I
had for him, If the dose makes the poison, why weren't all the kids in
Minamata, Japan poisoned with mercury. I already knew the answer, But
I wanted him to think about it. He told me what I had already known,
Genes, some kids are born with genes that do not protect against
mercury, same as with wilsons disease, they have a mutation where they
can not excrete cooper. It happens.

And this is my last post for the night, I will poke the rest of "your
post" with good sense tomorrow. :o)

Donna

> > > Fact: Thimerosal is not a toxin.  You've been told this before.  Do
> > > make a note of it.
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Kevysmom - 12 Jan 2008 00:46 GMT
I already knew the answer, But
> I wanted him to think about it. He told me what I had already known,
> Genes, some kids are born with genes that do not protect against
> mercury, same as with wilsons disease, they have a mutation where they
> can not excrete cooper. It happens.

I better add, That he said it could be genes responsible for excreting
heavy metals in some of the kids that are faulty.

> > Industrial strength. Not vaccination strength.
>
[quoted text clipped - 111 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mark Probert - 13 Jan 2008 04:57 GMT
> I already knew the answer, But
>> I wanted him to think about it. He told me what I had already known,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I better add, That he said it could be genes responsible for excreting
> heavy metals in some of the kids that are faulty.

This is the myth of the poor mercury excreters. They do not exist.

>>> Industrial strength. Not vaccination strength.
>>> Dose makes the poison.
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -
Kevysmom - 13 Jan 2008 17:22 GMT
> > I better add, That he said it could be genes responsible for excreting
> > heavy metals in some of the kids that are faulty.
>
> This is the myth of the poor mercury excreters. They do not exist.

Markey,

Do you have any understanding on how our genes work to remove heavy
metals from the body? Do you honestly believe there are NO children
born with genes that can not remove these heavy metals?

I will give you one week to do some catching up on what genes are
responsible for chelating heavy metals, Can a fetus chelate heavy
metals, Look that up too while you're at it.

On Jan 12, 11:57 pm, Mark Probert <markprob...@lumbercartel.com>
wrote:
> > I already knew the answer, But
> >> I wanted him to think about it. He told me what I had already known,
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
The One True Zhen Jue - 14 Jan 2008 00:38 GMT
> > > I better add, That he said it could be genes responsible for excreting
> > > heavy metals in some of the kids that are faulty.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> metals from the body? Do you honestly believe there are NO children
> born with genes that can not remove these heavy metals?

Did you know that as a group, autistic children, eliminated thimerosal
faster than non-autistics?
Yup, that is what we know from replicated experiements.  How 'bout
that, Donna?

> I will give you one week to do some catching up on what genes are
> responsible for chelating heavy metals, Can a fetus chelate heavy
[quoted text clipped - 99 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Kevysmom - 20 Jan 2008 02:12 GMT
> Did you know that as a group, autistic children, eliminated thimerosal
> faster than non-autistics?
> Yup, that is what we know from replicated experiements.  How 'bout
> that, Donna?

Is that right? How about some proof, Andrew!

On Jan 13, 7:38 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > > > I better add, That he said it could be genes responsible for excreting
> > > > heavy metals in some of the kids that are faulty.
[quoted text clipped - 117 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
The One True Zhen Jue - 20 Jan 2008 20:49 GMT
> > Did you know that as a group, autistic children, eliminated thimerosal
> > faster than non-autistics?
> > Yup, that is what we know from replicated experiements.  How 'bout
> > that, Donna?
>
> Is that right? How about some proof, Andrew!

There have been a few studies that have shown this.  Oddly, the notion
that autistic children have less thimerosal than than non-autistic
children is being used by anti-vac liars as proof that autism is due
to an inability to eliminate thimerosal.

http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/fish/advisories/news/newsmar04.htm

Differential rates of postnatal mercury elimination may explain why
similar gestational and infant exposures produce variable neurological
effects. First baby haircut samples were obtained from 94 autistic
children and 45 age- and gender-matched controls. Information on
dietary consumption, number of dental amalgams, vaccine history, Rho D
immunoglobulin administration, and autism symptom severity was
collected through a maternal survey questionnaire and clinical
observation. Mercury hair levels in the autistic group were 0.47 ppm
versus 3.63 ppm in controls, a significant difference.

> On Jan 13, 7:38 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 122 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
D. C. Sessions - 20 Jan 2008 23:46 GMT
> Differential rates of postnatal mercury elimination may explain why
> similar gestational and infant exposures produce variable neurological
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> observation. Mercury hair levels in the autistic group were 0.47 ppm
> versus 3.63 ppm in controls, a significant difference.

See?  Junk science.  The alties here will tell you that hair
analysis is worthless and only used by Evil Organized Medicine
to produce misleading reports like this one.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Peter Bowditch - 21 Jan 2008 03:33 GMT
>> Differential rates of postnatal mercury elimination may explain why
>> similar gestational and infant exposures produce variable neurological
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>analysis is worthless and only used by Evil Organized Medicine
>to produce misleading reports like this one.

Saint Boyd of Haley (PBUH) has said that low levels of mercury in the
hair indicate high levels in the body, whereas high levels of mercury
in the hair indicate high levels of mercury in the body. He is that
sort of chemist.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Jan Drew - 21 Jan 2008 08:53 GMT
> In message
> <799ea5b0-ad88-4a5c-b087-7bf2e81854c3@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, The
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> analysis is worthless and only used by Evil Organized Medicine
> to produce misleading reports like this one.

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/74de3697d1b339da

Jan 24 2000

D. C. & M. V. Sessions" <d...@lumbercartel.com> writes:

>Hoo boy!  Hair analysis.  Mark, do you want to pull out the cite
>to the people who sent in a poodle's hair for analysis and the
>results they got?
>Bottom line is that hair analysis is basically worthless.  Which shouldn't
>be a surprise, when you consider all of the things hair is exposed to.
>Now bloodwork is another matter -- why didn't they do serum analysis?

Here's the conclusion that you snipped.
" Analysis based on these five trace elements led to the correct
classification of 85.7% of the normal and 91.7% of the autistic group.
Results indicate that the concentrations of trace elements in hair from
normal children differ from patterns observed in both autistic and
autistic-like children. Furthermore, evidence suggests that hair analysis
may have potential use as a diagnostic tool for autism."

Bottom line, hair analysis may be a useful tool.   Fraud, substituting
animal
hair for human, isn't a useful tool in any circumstances.

Best wishes
Signature

John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
Surround Sound for Television

In article <388B1E91.8CE93...@lumbercartel.com>, "D. C. & M. V. Sessions"
<d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
*
* Bottom line is that hair analysis is basically worthless.  Which shouldn't
* be a surprise, when you consider all of the things hair is exposed to.
* Now bloodwork is another matter -- why didn't they do serum analysis?

That's obvious (surprising that somebody who claims to know so much about
the
issues wouldn't know this):  After exposure, mercury will only be present in
the blood in for about 50 days, while it will remain in the hair for 1 year.
Plus, parents often have samples of hair from prior to the date of
contemporary testing (most parents save their child's first lock of hair,
for
example).  After about 50 days in the bloodstream, mercury is then
bound in the tissue and will not be accurately detected unless a chelating
agent is given to pull the mercury from the tissue.

John <wh...@whaleto.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>Autism-Vaccine-Mercury Connection?  Two Items
>Saturday, January 22, 2000

>Significant Levels of Mercury in Autistic Kids

>Wecker, L; Miller, SB; Cochran, SR; Dugger, DL; Johnson, WD. Trace element
>concentrations in hair from autistic children. Journal of Mental Deficiency
>Research, 1985 Mar, 29 ( Pt 1):15-22. (UI: 85237449)
>Language: English; Pub type: JOURNAL ARTICLE

>      Abstract: The concentrations of 14 elements were determined in scalp
>hair samples from control, autistic and autistic-like children. Significant
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>elements with the greatest discriminatory power were calcium, copper, zinc,
>chromium and lithium.

Notice how "mercury" doesn't appear in the list?  Not that I think
hair analysis is necessarily very useful.  However, it is not utterly
worthless, as some here seem to believe.  It's been used to identify
murderers, in cases of slow poisoning with unusual things like
thallium.

[deleted another article that just proves once again that John has
absolutely no ability to separate the wheat from the chaff]

 -- David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
            The Millennium actually begins on January 1, 2001
               So Get Ready for a Second Round of Parties

mark_probert@hotmail,com wrote:

>>I wanted to clarify because it just didn't make sense to me.
>>Pfeiffer Treatment Center didn't perform the hair analysis on my
>>son...They
>>did take the sample, but it was sent to an independent laboratory for the
>>analysis.....and the results were then sent to me.

>You seem to be missing the point here, Cheryl.  The Pfeiffer Center
>took a hair sample, sent it it for analysis, and based a treatment
>recommendation on that analysis.

>Hair analysis is only useful for a very small number of things, none
>of which include nutritional deficiencies*.  Thus, the problem is not
>that the Pfeiffer Center might do a bad hair analysis, but rather that
>they used it at all, when it has repeatedly been shown to be
>worthless.

>Just based on the above, I would claim that the Pfeiffer Center is
>practicing quackery.

Which is exactly the point Quackwatch made.

Stephen Barrett, M.D.

Hair analysis is a test in which a sample of a person's hair --
typically from the back of the neck -- is sent to a laboratory for
measurement of its mineral content. This discussion concerns
multielemental hair analysis in which a single test is used to
determine values for many minerals simultaneously. This type of
analysis used by chiropractors, "nutrition consultants," physicians
who do chelation therapy, and other dubious practitioners who claim
that hair analyses can help them diagnose a wide variety of diseases
and can be used as the basis for prescribing supplements.

Analysis of Proponent Claims

Proponents of hair analysis claim that it is useful for evaluating a
person's general state of nutrition and health and is valuable in
detecting predisposition to disease. They also claim that hair
analysis enables a doctor to determine if mineral deficiency, mineral
imbalance or heavy metal pollutants in the body may be the cause of a
patient's symptoms. These claims are false.

Although hair analysis has limited value as a screening device for
heavy metal exposure, it is not reliable for evaluating the
nutritional status of individuals. In 1974, the AMA Committee on
Cutaneous Health and Cosmetics noted: "The state of health of the body
may be entirely unrelated to the physical and chemical condition of
the hair . . . Although severe deficiency states of an essential
element are often associated with low concentrations of the element in
hair, there are no data that indicate that low concentrations of an
element signify low tissue levels nor that high concentrations reflect
high tissue stores. Therefore . . . hair metal levels would rarely
help a physician select effective treatment." [1]
Most commercial hair analysis laboratories have not validated their
analytical techniques by checking them against standard reference
materials. The techniques typically used to prepare samples for
analysis can introduce errors for many of the elements being
determined.
Hair mineral content can be affected by exposure to various substances
such as shampoos, bleaches and hair dyes. No analytic technique
enables reliable determination of the source of specific levels of
elements in hair as bodily or environmental.
The level of certain minerals can be affected by the color, diameter
and rate of growth of an individual's hair, the season of the year,
the geographic location, and the age and gender of the individual.
Normal ranges of hair minerals have not been defined.
For most elements, no correlation has been established between hair
level and other known indicators of nutrition status. It is possible
for hair concentration of an element (zinc, for example) to be high
even though deficiency exists in the body.
Hair grows slowly (1 cm/month), so even hair closest to the scalp is
several weeks old and thus may not reflect current body conditions for
purposes of health diagnosis.
The use of a single multielemental hair analysis test as the sole
means of diagnosis violates basic tenets of medical practice that
laboratory findings should be considered together with the patient's
history and physical examination, and that the practitioner should
keep in mind that laboratory errors occur.
For these reasons, multielemental analysis of human hair is not a
valid technique for identifying an individual's current bodily
excesses or deficiencies of essential or nonessential elements. Nor
does it provide a valid basis for recommending vitamins, minerals, or
other dietary supplements [2,3]

In the mid-1980s, there were about 18 laboratories doing commercial
hair analysis in the United States. Today there are fewer. Some
laboratories have belonged to the American Society of Elemental
Testing Laboratories (ASETL). In 1982, ASETL began a program in which
a well-known proficiency-testing service received and tabulated the
data from analyses of identical hair samples sent to seven member
laboratories. However, at the end of the year, the testing service
refused to continue because the data were inconsistent and appeared to
have no clinical significance.

In 1983 and 1984, I sent hair samples from two healthy teenagers to 13
of the commercial laboratories [4]. In 1985, I sent paired samples
from one of the girls to five more labs. The reported levels of most
minerals varied considerably between identical samples sent to the
same laboratory, and from laboratory to laboratory. The laboratories
also disagreed about what is "normal" or "usual" for many of the
minerals, so that a given mineral value might be considered low by
some laboratories, normal by others and high by others.

Most of the reports contained computerized interpretations that were
voluminous and potentially frightening to patients. The nine labs that
included supplement advice in their reports suggested them every time,
but the types and amounts varied widely from report to report and from
lab to lab. Many of the items recommended were bizarre mixtures of
vitamins, minerals, nonessential food substances, enzymes, and
extracts of animal organs. One report diagnosed 23 "possible or
probable conditions," including atherosclerosis and kidney failure,
and recommended 56 supplement doses per day. Literature from most of
the laboratories suggested that their reports were useful in managing
a wide variety of diseases and supposed nutrient imbalances. I
concluded that commercial use of hair analysis in this manner is
unscientific, economically wasteful, and probably illegal, and that
even if hair analysis were a valuable diagnostic tool, it is doubtful
whether the laboratory reports themselves were reliable.

In 1985, the public affairs committee of the American Institute of
Nutrition/American Society for Clinical Nutrition issued a position
paper on hair analysis. The paper concluded that although hair
analysis may have some value for comparing population groups as to
status of various minerals or assessing exposure to heavy metals,
assessment of individual subjects appears to have "almost
insurmountable difficulties." For this reason, said the paper, hair
analysis might best be reserved for experimental studies designed to
evaluate its potential as an indicator of nutrition status and perhaps
for some public health surveys. Noting that about 100 articles a year
are published on hair analysis, one nutritionist who reviewed the
position paper suggested that the test's inherent limitations make
much of the research useless [5].

The AMA's current policy on hair analysis -- adopted in 1984 and
reaffirmed in 1994, is:

The AMA opposes chemical analysis of the hair as a determinant of the
need for medical therapy and supports informing the American public
and appropriate governmental agencies of this unproven practice and
its potential for health care fraud [6].

A recent 2-year study of students exposed to fumes from metal welding
found that hair analysis did not consistently reflect blood levels of
11 heavy metals [7].

Government Actions

Hair analysis was involved in a case prosecuted in 1980 by the Los
Angeles City Attorney's Office. According to the official press
release, Benjamin Colimore and his wife, Sarah, owners of a
health-food store, would take hair samples from customers in order to
diagnose and treat various conditions. Prosecution was initiated after
a customer complained that the Colimores had said she had a bad heart
valve and was suffering from abscesses of the pancreas, arsenic in her
system, and benign growths of the liver, intestine, and stomach-all
based on analysis of her hair. Two substances were prescribed, an
"herbal tea" which turned out to be only milk sugar, and "Arsenicum,"
another milk-sugar product that contained traces of arsenic. Another
sample of hair was taken when the customer returned to the store five
weeks later. She was told that the earlier conditions were gone, but
that she now had lead in her stomach. A government investigator
received similar diagnosis and treatment. After pleading "no contest"
to one count of practicing medicine without a license, the Colimores
were fined $2,000, given a sixty-day suspended jail sentence, and
placed on probation for two years.

In 1985, in response to a petition by the Federal Trade Commission
(FTC), a federal judge issued a permanent injunction against Arthur,
Ethel and Alan Furman and any business through which they might act.
The order forbids "holding themselves out . . . to persons other than
health professionals, as being able, on the basis of hair analysis, to
measure accurately the elemental content of a person's body or to
recommend vitamin, mineral or other dietary supplements which can
correct chemical excesses and deficiencies in a person's body." [8] As
a result of the FTC action, the Furmans' laboratory closed and, until
recently, direct advertising to the public has been rare. However, the
FTC has not pursued the laboratories that serve practitioners because
it feels that practitioner misconduct should be regulated by state
agencies.

In 1986, Analytical Research Laboratories (ARL) of Phoenix Arizona
signed a consent agreement with the New York State Attorney General to
stop "soliciting and accepting hair specimens for laboratory
examination where the purpose is to determine possible excesses of
deficiencies in nutrient mineral levels or toxic metal ...

read more »

> | Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
> | e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lymber cartel.    |
> | There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
> +--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lymbercartel.com> --------------+
Jan Drew - 21 Jan 2008 08:11 GMT
On Jan 19, 9:12 pm, Kevysmom <bluebun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Did you know that as a group, autistic children, eliminated thimerosal
> > faster than non-autistics?
> > Yup, that is what we know from replicated experiements. How 'bout
> > that, Donna?
>
> Is that right? How about some proof, Andrew!

There have been a few studies that have shown this.  Oddly, the notion
that autistic children have less thimerosal than than non-autistic
children is being used by anti-vac liars as proof that autism is due
to an inability to eliminate thimerosal.

http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/fish/advisories/news/newsmar04.htm

Differential rates of postnatal mercury elimination may explain why
similar gestational and infant exposures produce variable neurological
effects. First baby haircut samples were obtained from 94 autistic
children and 45 age- and gender-matched controls. Information on
dietary consumption, number of dental amalgams, vaccine history, Rho D
immunoglobulin administration, and autism symptom severity was
collected through a maternal survey questionnaire and clinical
observation. Mercury hair levels in the autistic group were 0.47 ppm
versus 3.63 ppm in controls, a significant difference.

Mercury is extremely toxic to the body, especially the central nervous
system

Reduced levels of mercury in first baby haircuts of autistic children
In the U.S. and the United Kingdom, autism rates have increased sharply. A
possible reason for this increase is increased exposure to mercury through
thimerosal-containing vaccines. Vaccine exposures, however, need to be
evaluated in the context of total exposures during gestation and early
infancy. Differential rates of postnatal mercury elimination may explain why
similar gestational and infant exposures produce variable neurological
effects. First baby haircut samples were obtained from 94 autistic children
and 45 age- and gender-matched controls. Information on dietary consumption,
number of dental amalgams, vaccine history, Rho D immunoglobulin
administration, and autism symptom severity was collected through a maternal
survey questionnaire and clinical observation. Mercury hair levels in the
autistic group were 0.47 ppm versus 3.63 ppm in controls, a significant
difference. Mothers in the autistic group had significantly higher levels of
mercury exposure through Rho D immunoglobulin injections and amalgam
fillings than control mothers. Within the autistic group, hair mercury
levels varied significantly across mildly, moderately, and severely autistic
children, with mean group levels of 0.79, 0.46, and 0.21 ppm, respectively.
Hair mercury levels among controls were significantly correlated with the
number of the mothers' amalgams and their fish eating pattern as well as
exposure to mercury through childhood vaccines. These same correlations were
absent in the autistic group. Hair excretion patterns among autistic infants
were significantly reduced relative to control infants. The authors suggest
that these data cast doubt on the efficacy of traditional hair analysis as a
measure of total mercury exposure in a subset of the population. Because of
mercury's role in neurodevelopmental disorders, the present study provides
insight into one possible mechanism by which early mercury exposures could
increase the risk of autism.

> On Jan 13, 7:38 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 168 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mark Probert - 14 Jan 2008 04:27 GMT
>>> I better add, That he said it could be genes responsible for excreting
>>> heavy metals in some of the kids that are faulty.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Do you have any understanding on how our genes work to remove heavy
> metals from the body?

Yes.

Do you honestly believe there are NO children
> born with genes that can not remove these heavy metals?

So far, there are no well described case studies of this.

> I will give you one week to do some catching up on what genes are
> responsible for chelating heavy metals, Can a fetus chelate heavy
> metals, Look that up too while you're at it.

No, a fetus cannot chelate heavy metals. Chelation is done by the
introduction of chemicals. Just ask Dr. Kerry.

> On Jan 12, 11:57 pm, Mark Probert <markprob...@lumbercartel.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
>>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -
vernon O - 14 Jan 2008 21:29 GMT
>>>> I better add, That he said it could be genes responsible for excreting
>>>> heavy metals in some of the kids that are faulty.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Yes.

"genes" work?
So they change form or constitution and actually play an active roll.
Mark Probert - 13 Jan 2008 04:56 GMT
>> Industrial strength. Not vaccination strength.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> And this is my last post for the night, I will poke the rest of "your
> post" with good sense tomorrow. :o)

Nothing you said contradicts my points. Further, the Japanese were
explained to MeHg, which is NOT the same a EHg.
vernon O - 13 Jan 2008 19:40 GMT
> Industrial strength. Not vaccination strength.
>
> Dose makes the poison.

I already knew the answer, But
I wanted him to think about it. He told me what I had already known,
Genes, some kids are born with genes that do not protect against
mercury,

No research or theory has EVER stated such.

Do you like lying just to support a religion?
Mercury.Sailor - 17 Jan 2008 13:54 GMT
> I wanted him to think about it. He told me what I had already known,
> Genes, some kids are born with genes that do not protect against
> mercury,

> No research or theory has EVER stated such.

"The Ubiquitination system might provide a novel mechanism for
protection against the toxcity of mercury compounds."

http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/61/4/738.pdf#search=%22%20ubiquiti
nation%20%20mercury%22


CDC34 is a protein that comes from E2. The Ubiquitination cascade is
E1, E2 and E3.

http://www.answers.com/ubiquitin&r=67

UBE3A is what degrades p53. Neurological disorders have
an increase in the p53 gene, whereas cancer has the reverse
action.

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v21/n3/full/ng0399_246.html

The p53 protein is a multi-function nuclear factor that is activated
in response to multiple forms of stress and controls the
proliferation, survival, DNA repair and differentiation of cells
exposed to potentially "genotoxic DNA damage." Loss of p53 function by
mutation is a frequent event in human cancer, and is thought to result
in the capacity of cells to acquire and accumulate oncogenic mutations
during the progression of neoplasia. The p53 protein is a metal-
binding transcription factor that is inactivated by metal chelation
and by oxidation in vitro. In intact cells, p53 protein activity is
crucially dependent on the availability of Zn ions and is impaired by
exposure to Cd, a metal which readily substitutes for Zn in a number
of transcription factors. Inactivation by Cd suppresses the p53-
dependent responses to DNA damage. Overall, these findings indicate
that regulation by metals plays an important role in the control of
p53, and that perturbation of this control may explain the
carcinogenic potential of several metal compounds.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cabi/pns/1999/00000058/00000003/art00007

I hope you have the time to carefully read what I just posted.

> > Industrial strength. Not vaccination strength.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Do you like lying just to support a religion?
Kevysmom - 17 Jan 2008 14:33 GMT
Thats me, btw! Not sure why my name changed.

> > I wanted him to think about it. He told me what I had already known,
> > Genes, some kids are born with genes that do not protect against
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jeff - 11 Jan 2008 22:33 GMT
>> In the New England Journal of Medicine, there was an article showing
>> that about 1% of kids with autism have specific mutations in then. This
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> when its
> triggered from a toxin like those found in cigarettes?

There are literally dozens of genes that have been implicated different
cancers. About which mutation are are talking?

> Could the kids with Autism have a genetic mutation that when triggered
> by a toxin, Causes a neurodevelopmental disorder? is that possible?

Gee, the genetic mutation found was found in <1% of the kids with autism
and is about 10 times rarer in kids without autism. So it is not
involved in the vast majority of kids with autism.

Gee, considering all the toxins kids are exposed to in their food (like
chemicals that act as hormones and organic mercury from fish), gas fumes
while in the garage and car, different type of organic chemicals in the
home (by organic, I mean the chemical definition of organic, which means
contains the elements carbon and hydrogen), etc., it would be hard to
pin down which ones. Two things that have been investigated are
ethylmercury (thimerasol) and vaccines. Neither of these have any good
evidence to support any type of relationship between them and autism.

Jeff

>>> "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>> <...>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>>
>> Jeff
Kevysmom - 11 Jan 2008 23:12 GMT
> There are literally dozens of genes that have been implicated different
> cancers. About which mutation are are talking?

You know damn well that has nothing to do with my question.

> Gee, the genetic mutation found was found in <1% of the kids with autism
> and is about 10 times rarer in kids without autism. So it is not
> involved in the vast majority of kids with autism.

Well golly gee, If you read the original study you would have read
that the
scientist are still looking for other genes responsible for Autism.
30,000
genes are a lot to dig through, dontcha know.

> Gee, considering all the toxins kids are exposed to in their food (like
> chemicals that act as hormones and organic mercury from fish), gas fumes
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ethylmercury (thimerasol) and vaccines. Neither of these have any good
> evidence to support any type of relationship between them and autism.

What was the name of that drug in the 1960's that caused children to
be born
with no limbs? I imagine there were doctors just like you who refuted
that
a medicine for pregnant women could do such a thing. My goodness, That
could never happen, Pharma is such a caring industry, No malice ever
would
come from such a company.

> >> In the New England Journal of Medicine, there was an article showing
> >> that about 1% of kids with autism have specific mutations in then. This
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jeff - 11 Jan 2008 23:31 GMT
>> There are literally dozens of genes that have been implicated different
>> cancers. About which mutation are are talking?
>
> You know damn well that has nothing to do with my question.

You wrote: "Why is it some who smoke develop cancer and some do not? is
it because the ones who develop cancer have a mutation that results in
cancer when its triggered from a toxin like those found in cigarettes?"

Gee, asking which mutation seems to be directly in response to your
question.

>> Gee, the genetic mutation found was found in <1% of the kids with autism
>> and is about 10 times rarer in kids without autism. So it is not
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> 30,000
> genes are a lot to dig through, dontcha know.

It's a little less than that, 20,000 to 25,000 genes.

Another mutation on chromosome 7 relating to autism was recently
published: http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Autism/dh/7917.

There is definitely a long way to go to understand which genes are
involved in ADHD, autism, schizophrenia, obsessive compulsive disorder,
and many other neurological and behaviorial disorders. It is extremely
complicated.

>> Gee, considering all the toxins kids are exposed to in their food (like
>> chemicals that act as hormones and organic mercury from fish), gas fumes
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> would
> come from such a company.

I have repeatedly said that Pharma companies are not interested in
people, except their stockholders. They, like oil companies, utilities,
software companies and insurance companies are in business to make
money, not help people. None the less, the products they make do help
people live longer and defeat diseases like cancer, just like the
gasoline and heating oil that oil companies make help people get around
in their cars and heat homes.

I would add that there are many people who work at these companies
(pharma, oil, etc.) who do want to help people, by bringing them new and
better drugs and by bring them energy products.

None of this means that vaccines or the ethylmercury in vaccines causes
autism. And the overwhelming data show that vaccines do NOT cause autism.

Jeff

>>>> In the New England Journal of Medicine, there was an article showing
>>>> that about 1% of kids with autism have specific mutations in then. This
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>
>> Jeff

...
Mark Probert - 12 Jan 2008 00:18 GMT
> > There are literally dozens of genes that have been implicated different
> > cancers. About which mutation are are talking?
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> would
> come from such a company.

That would be Thalidomide, and the FDA never allowed it into the USA.

It is now being tested for treating multiple myeloma and it is
effective against Leprosy.
D. C. Sessions - 17 Jan 2008 12:14 GMT
> What was the name of that drug in the 1960's that caused children to
> be born with no limbs?

Thalidomide.  Bob Finkbine was one of my teachers, and I knew Sherry
from when I was five years old.

Be very careful here.

> I imagine there were doctors just like you who refuted that a
> medicine for pregnant women could do such a thing.

Citing your own fantasies as evidence?  Interesting approach.

> That could never happen, Pharma is such a caring industry, No
> malice ever would come from such a company.

Hanlon's Razor, as always, applies.

Now, for extra points: reconcile the Thalidomide story with
your theories of FDA corruption.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Kevysmom - 20 Jan 2008 01:32 GMT
> Now, for extra points: reconcile the Thalidomide story with
> your theories of FDA corruption.

Lumber-Jack, what are you talking about?

Did the FDA know back then that Thalidomide was causing problems
before the lawyers got involved? I dont know, Did they?

> In message <5b2078ba-7ad4-43ec-8eae-ab4c68287...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Kevysmom wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> | There isn't really a Santa Claus, but trywww.santaclaus.com.      |
> +--------------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
Mark Probert - 20 Jan 2008 04:40 GMT
>> Now, for extra points: reconcile the Thalidomide story with
>> your theories of FDA corruption.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Did the FDA know back then that Thalidomide was causing problems
> before the lawyers got involved? I dont know, Did they?

I'll give you a free clue. Thalidomide was not available in the US due
to the FDA.

I told you this before, so you have no excuse for not knowing it.

>> In message <5b2078ba-7ad4-43ec-8eae-ab4c68287...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Kevysmom wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>> | There isn't really a Santa Claus, but trywww.santaclaus.com.      |
>> +--------------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
D. C. Sessions - 20 Jan 2008 19:10 GMT
>> Now, for extra points: reconcile the Thalidomide story with
>> your theories of FDA corruption.
>
> Lumber-Jack, what are you talking about?

Was that an attempt at a third-grade schoolyard name insult?
I'm afraid that most third graders would do much better.

Apparently, you're once again jumping in to tell us your
infallible opinion regarding a subject where you admit you
don't even have the most basic facts.

> Did the FDA know back then that Thalidomide was causing problems
> before the lawyers got involved? I dont know, Did they?

Do you enjoy this kind of self-abuse?  A simple Wikipedia search
for "thalidomide" would save you the sort of embarrassment that
self-respecting people normally feel after making fools of themselves
for the world to see -- and on a relatively permanent record, too.

| Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable       |
| e-mail address.  Of course, there isn't REALLY a lumber cartel.    |
| There isn't really a Santa Claus, but try www.santaclaus.com.      |
+--------------- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
HCN - 20 Jan 2008 20:26 GMT
>Lumber-Jack, what are you talking about?

>Did the FDA know back then that Thalidomide was causing problems
>before the lawyers got involved? I dont know, Did they?

Question:  Which of the following describes Frances Kelsey's education:
pharmacology, lawyer, physician?  Why did this former Canadian receive an
award from John F. Kennedy?
David Wright - 12 Jan 2008 03:06 GMT
>> In the New England Journal of Medicine, there was an article showing
>> that about 1% of kids with autism have specific mutations in then. This
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>when its
>triggered from a toxin like those found in cigarettes?

Frequently, yes.  There's one particular gene where, if you have a
certain allele, your odds of getting lung cancer from smoking are 70
times higher than if you had some other allele.

(It also makes you much more likely to get diabetes if you're
overweight and cardiovascular disease if your diet's unhealthy.
A real triple threat, I think you'll agree.)

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "Without Bush, what will America's schoolchildren have to look down on?"
                                                       -- Bill Maher
Mark Probert - 10 Jan 2008 13:29 GMT
> wrote in message
> news:0%hhj.34663$JD.27547@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> Ties to Vaccine Manufacturers
>> by Mike Adams

> Good find

Carole, you say you like to think. Think of this:

Why does it matter that the study was published in any one particular
paper when it was actually published in over 1000?

This is a "good find" like when you step in a pile of dog poop.
Jan Drew - 11 Jan 2008 03:47 GMT
>> wrote in message
>> news:0%hhj.34663$JD.27547@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Carole dog poop.

Are not the subject.
Peter Moran - 10 Jan 2008 08:09 GMT
> NewsTarget.com printable article
> Originally published January 9 2008
[quoted text clipped - 261 lines]
>
> http://www.newstarget.com/z022479.html

Mike Adams? Antivax extremist?    He has been scaring people about a
thiomerosal autism connection for years despite a steady accumulation of
evidence to the contrary.  Since when does being wrong about just about
everything to do with vaccines entitle someone to accuse everyone else of
having a "low level of scientific literacy"?

PM
Mark Probert - 10 Jan 2008 13:31 GMT
>> NewsTarget.com printable article
>> Originally published January 9 2008
[quoted text clipped - 274 lines]
> everything to do with vaccines entitle someone to accuse everyone else
> of having a "low level of scientific literacy"?

When one is totally devoid of morals.
Jan Drew - 11 Jan 2008 04:13 GMT
>>> NewsTarget.com printable article
>>> Originally published January 9 2008
[quoted text clipped - 272 lines]
>
> When one is totally devoid of morals.

Like markprobert@llimbercartel.com
or
markprobert@lymbercartel.com

Your complete lack of morals is well known on the net.
Proof:

OT: For what it is worth.

Why did you removed it from google?

I just happen to save it!
Jan Drew - 11 Jan 2008 03:56 GMT
>> NewsTarget.com printable article
>> Originally published January 9 2008
[quoted text clipped - 266 lines]
>
> Mike Adams? Antivax extremist?

No, just tells is like it is.

  He has been scaring people about a
> thiomerosal autism connection for years despite a steady accumulation of
> evidence to the contrary.

Telling the truth is scaring people?
The so-called evidence wouldn't be from organized medicine, would it?

 Since when does being wrong about just about
> everything to do with vaccines

He wasn't wrong.

entitle someone to accuse everyone else of
> having a "low level of scientific literacy"?
>
> PM

"You" are speaking of accusing??
While seeing no coverups from Dr Wilson.

JD
Mark Probert - 10 Jan 2008 13:27 GMT
wrote:
> NewsTurd.com printable article
> Originally defecated January 9 2008
> Study "Disproving" Mercury-Autism Link Published in Journal with
> Financial Ties to Vaccine Manufacturers

Mike Adams, Reality Avoider, is desperate. It does not matter where it
was published.
Jan Drew - 11 Jan 2008 04:25 GMT
> wrote:

Wasn't the The Junk Yard Dog?

UDP/ON again........................

>> NewsTurd.com printable article
>> Originally defecated January 9 2008
>> Study "Disproving" Mercury-Autism Link Published in Journal with
>> Financial Ties to Vaccine Manufacturers
>
> Mike Adams, Reality Avoider, is desperate.

>*It does not matter where it  was published.*

There's another keeper.

Jan Drew" <jdrew1374@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:0%hhj.34663$JD.27547@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
> NewsTarget.com printable article
> Originally published January 9 2008
[quoted text clipped - 261 lines]
>
> http://www.newstarget.com/z022479.html