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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / November 2007How are Vets are Being Treated ... Very Important to See for all of us Who Love our Veterans & Free Speech
I 10000000% disagree with the Military / Industrial Complex propaganda posted here regarding the attempts at silencing the voices of veterans: "Having a demanding few rejected for an off-purpose, undignified personal agenda to be inappropriate, disruptive and dishonoring is certainly not cruel." Coleah Penley Ayers 11.13.2007 The numbers are not 'few' and their purposes are not 'off' ... and telling the truth about the horrors and realities of this war is not 'dishonoring.' Any of you who love our Veterans and have not seen this video ... please do so. The facts bear no resemblance to the disinformation posted here ... mixed with distraction and coverup being continued here by the same loud voice that pushed the 'talking points' that led to this horrific invasion and occupation of Iraq. http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/11/12/countdown-on-veterans-day-bush-goes-awo l-vets-silenced-marlboro-marine-jobless/ More: 120 US war veteran suicides a week http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22762457-5005961,00.html From correspondents in New York November 15, 2007 09:47am THE US military is experiencing a "suicide epidemic" with veterans killing themselves at the rate of 120 a week, according to an investigation by US television network CBS. At least 6256 US veterans committed suicide in 2005 - an average of 17 a day - the network reported, with veterans overall more than twice as likely to take their own lives as the rest of the general population. While the suicide rate among the general population was 8.9 per 100,000, the level among veterans was between 18.7 and 20.8 per 100,000. That figure rose to 22.9 to 31.9 suicides per 100,000 among veterans aged 20 to 24 - almost four times the non-veteran average for the age group. "Those numbers clearly show an epidemic of mental health problems,'' CBS quoted veterans' rights advocate Paul Sullivan as saying. CBS quoted the father of a 23-year-old soldier who shot himself in 2005 as saying the military did not want the true scale of the problem to be known. "Nobody wants to tally it up in the form of a government total,'' Mike Bowman said. "They don't want the true numbers of casualties to really be known.'' There are 25 million veterans in the United States, 1.6 million of whom served in Afghanistan and Iraq, according to CBS. "Not everyone comes home from the war wounded, but the bottom line is nobody comes home unchanged,'' Paul Rieckhoff, a former Marine and founder of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans for America said on CBS. The network said it was the first time that a nationwide count of veteran suicides had been conducted. The tally was reached by collating suicide data from individual states for both veterans and the general population from 1995. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22762457-5005961,00.html From the Humantics Foundation & Ilena Rosenthal http://ilenarose.blogspot.com Health Lover http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/11/12/countdown-on-veterans-day-bush-goes-awo l-vets-silenced-marlboro-marine-jobless/ On todays Countdown, Keith Olbermann aired a somber and enraging segment on the sad state of affairs for our veterans on this Veterans Day. Talking with Paul Rieckhoff from IAVA, Olbermann blasted George Bush for ducking out of the ceremonies at Arlington Cemetary, talked about the growing number of homeless Iraq & Afghanistan vets and the utterly disgraceful silencing of anti-Iraq veterans in Massachusetts and Southern California who were not allowed to participate in Veterans Day parades some were even arrested. On the one day of the year their voices should have been heard and they should have been honored, they were instead betrayed by their fellow citizens. I dont have the words to describe that kind of cruelty. Keith also touches on the gut wrenching story of Lance Corporal James Blake Miller better known as the Marlboro Marinewho is now jobless, divorced and near suicidal since being discharged from the military after being diagnosed with PTSD. With little aid from his government, Miller received help from an unlikely source Luis Sinco, the LA Times photographer who snapped the famous picture of him during the battle of Fallujah in 2004. You can read Sincos story in the LAT here. > I 10000000% disagree with the Military / Industrial Complex > propaganda posted here regarding the attempts at silencing the voices [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > telling the truth about the horrors and realities of this war is not > 'dishonoring.' (snip) You may disagree all you wish. I think you missed the original point..... Your focus is people being 'silenced' (as if to imply that all people have a right to say/do what ever they wish, when ever they wish, and where ever they wish). Sorry. A Veterans Day parade is not the appropriate venue for those you would support in disrupting this orderly, dignified and honorable event. [And yes, disruptive people committing 'disorderly conduct' are dragged away kicking and screaming.] That certainly does not mean "your people" are 'silenced' in an appropriate venue. They are very free to form their own parade for their very own purpose (arrange permits, supply their own parade security along with required law enforcement coverage, blocking of streets for specific lengths of time, and stick to a tightly prearranged staging and line up, timing the parade movement through the route. Not to mention the advertising and clean up costs. And they are more than free to pay for all of it, too.....as an express their freedom of speech. So that was the original 'issue'. You jumped in about an issue of veteran suicide, citing a TV news expose' type video report which highlighted a 'problem'....as if it were scooping some evil newly discovered hidden issue. This issue has been followed for some time, including government reports on the issue from 2005. Findings suggested that young depressed veterans taking drugs are more likely to commit suicide. Also, young veterans treated at the VA for 'both' depression and PTSD are less likely to commit suicide than those only being treated for depression. Prevention of veteran suicides (which IS the issue, right?) has had plans developed. The House passed H.R. 327 on Oct 23, 2007, and President Bush signed H.R. 327 into law by Nov 5, 2007. This directs the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to implement a comprehensive program to reduce the incidence of suicide among veterans. I am not certain it includes additional budgetary funding toward that goal. ******My point is..... these solutions were very obviously being developed by the government long BEFORE the expose' TV news video of Nov 13, 2007 (which implied that no federal agency was keeping count): http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_investigates/main3498625.shtml THE VIDEO webpage: http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/video-cbs-uncovers-startling- veterans-suicide-rate/ (which BTW is choke full of campaign advertisement for Barack Obama. Surprised ???) The enciting publicity about this issue http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=6000+veterans+suicide brought out the few desiring to make it a disruptive issue during Veterans Day Parades. Did they happen to plan to publicize H.R. 327 in parades, and the fact that solutions have been addressed and are in place? Talk about a political motivated ploy......(with very bad timing, BTW) and very, very transparent intentions. >> I 10000000% disagree with the Military / Industrial Complex >> propaganda posted here regarding the attempts at silencing the voices [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > [And yes, disruptive people committing 'disorderly conduct' are > dragged away kicking and screaming.] I disagree. The right of Free Speech is such that timing and location are also important. The purpose is getting a message out to interested parties, and preventing it in this context is a violation of the Constitution that I fought to protect. > That certainly does not mean "your people" are 'silenced' in an > appropriate venue. Once there is a government sanction of a parade, and something as simple as providing assistance with traffic control is a sanction, then the right becomes nearly absolute. There are NO inappropriate venues if there is government sanction. They are very free to form their own parade for > their very own purpose (arrange permits, supply their own parade > security along with required law enforcement coverage, blocking of [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Talk about a political motivated ploy......(with very bad timing, BTW) > and very, very transparent intentions. > >> I 10000000% disagree with the Military / Industrial Complex > >> propaganda posted here regarding the attempts at silencing the voices [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Not so. I've participated in Veterans Day Parade planning and just because a 'group' claims 'freedom of speech rights', does not give them the right to participate IN the parade route as a parade entry participant. Freedom of Speechers certainly can follow the tail end of the parade or they stand near the reviewing stand hoping to get TV coverage. If they end up arrested for disorderly conduct, they can scream all the way to jail. Many years ago I attended an event at a high school where Colin Powell was the speaker. Upon existing with large numbers of parents and students heading for buses, there on the high school lawn was a group of 'free speechers' (pigtailed hippy throwbacks). They held homemade signs saying, "Question Authority". Needless to say the kids looked at these people as if they were from another planet. After I walked up and challenged them (with a really simple question, "On WHO'S authority are you here?"), they all packed up and left. They had no answer. "Coleah" <coleah@pacifier.com> wrote in > How very un-american of you. > "Coleah" <col...@pacifier.com> wrote in > > > How very un-american of you. Define "American"........ >>>> I 10000000% disagree with the Military / Industrial Complex >>>> propaganda posted here regarding the attempts at silencing the voices [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > of the parade or they stand near the reviewing stand hoping to get TV > coverage. I disagree. Every year in NY there is the "private" St. Patrick's Day Parade which is provided with access to 5th Avenue, police supported traffic control, and a flock of politicians to march. They exclude a gay group of Irish who want to march under their own banner. AFAIAC, that is a Constitutional violation. As for the Veterans' Day parade, I find it highly offensive that the Right of Free Speech is limited in its name. If some group is excluded because their opinions differ, then there is no Free Speech. If they end up arrested for disorderly conduct, they can > scream all the way to jail. As well they should. Often "disorderly conduct" really means "disagree with the majority". > Many years ago I attended an event at a high school where Colin Powell > was the speaker. Upon existing with large numbers of parents and > students heading for buses, there on the high school lawn was a group > of 'free speechers' (pigtailed hippy throwbacks). They held homemade > signs saying, "Question Authority". Good. I have absolutely no problem with that. I would hope that Gen. Powel would not have one either. > Needless to say the kids looked at these people as if they were from > another planet. After I walked up and challenged them (with a really > simple question, "On WHO'S authority are you here?"), they all packed > up and left. They had no answer. They had authority...the First Amendment right of Free Speech and Peaceable Assembly. You should have known that and not have had to ask. Yep, only in America, can American GIs collaterally surrender their minds, bodies and ultimately their lives, to the US military to preserve our rights - among them, the Right of Free Speech. And, only in America, when an American GI loses his life in that pursuit, can the right of Free Speech allow protesters to the war to picket, protest, and make complete disrespectful a.ses of themselves, by plastering themselves all over the funerals of those who have paid the ultimate price. Only in America, can one promote the ideal of Free Speech on internet newsgroups, and say most any untrue, libelous and defamatory thing they wish, and then call the aging parents, employers, children of those they disagree with, in the attempt to silence them! In America, we not only have Free Speech, but more often than not, we have a perversion of Free Speech. > >>>> I 10000000% disagree with the Military / Industrial Complex > >>>> propaganda posted here regarding the attempts at silencing the voices [quoted text clipped - 120 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > Yep, only in America, can American GIs collaterally surrender their > minds, bodies and ultimately their lives, to the US military to [quoted text clipped - 140 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Actually, those who would destroy this county have unfortunately been doing an excellent job. For years we have had 'teasingly' progressive attacks on 'us' outside of this country (U.S.S. Cole, embassy bombings, etc). The waters were tested in terms of our strength and intention as a nation as they were 'poking' at us. The foundation was laid for them to come closer and closer.....as they did on 9-11. It was actually a startling brilliant move on their part....for it not only effected our economy, it caused internal unrest and is ultimately dividing our people. And so it is. > Actually, those who would destroy this county have unfortunately been > doing an excellent job. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > only effected our economy, it caused internal unrest and is ultimately > dividing our people. And so it is.- Absolutely TRUE. . .There is a Buddhist saying, "Everything is Nothing!" > > Yep, only in America, can American GIs collaterally surrender their > > minds, bodies and ultimately their lives, to the US military to [quoted text clipped - 153 lines] > only effected our economy, it caused internal unrest and is ultimately > dividing our people. And so it is.- If we will recall that immediately following 9-11, America garnered the sympathy of a very large part of the globe. When we went into Afghanistan, the UN, our allies, and this country, stood fairly united in that effort. Unfortunately, in our over-inflated exhuberance from the early success there, we took our eyes off the real ball (the terrorists), and began taking on visions of enriching a war machine which had product on the shelves, and needed some serious sabre rattling to clear. In my estimation, After Afghanistan, we should have gone after the terrorist cells and training camps. We should have never taking on an entire nation like Iraq, which had absolutely NOTHING to do with the flying of the planes into building on 9-11. Why didn't we do that??? I think the answer is quite simple. The terrorists that flew planes on 9-11 were from Pakistan (which has training camps near the Afghan border), and Saudi Arabia. . .Both Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are our allies - therefore we couldn't get pissed at them. So with the help of a whole lot of trumped up "intelligence" the American People were someone sold on the idea that Iraq had WMDs. And we were off on a pre-emptive action against a sovereign nation. The internal unrest in this country over our involvement in the Iraq war, is not so much from outside forces. It comes from the corruptible power of those within our own administration, who lied and deceived the American people, into a war that should have never been. Quite honestly, I would like to see a number of those within this administration, who have put us in this administration, tried for TREASON! Only in today's America, would those most intimate to the White House be able to out Valerie Plame, as a CIA operative, to retaliate against her husband, for leaking the truth about the phoney intelligence. To add salt to the wound, the president then commutes the sentence of Scooter Libbey for outing Valerie Plame. Not in our lifetimes, will we regain the respect of the rest of the globe, we once had. No wonder our allies soon left Iraq, when the truth became known! > > > Yep, only in America, can American GIs collaterally surrender their > > > minds, bodies and ultimately their lives, to the US military to [quoted text clipped - 181 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The difficult part of all this is distinguishing who are terrorists and who are not, and who are they terrorizing and how. I remember after 9-11 being advised that we were in a war on terror that would be unlike any war we had ever known. And this is the exact situation we find ourselves in. I picture us as a house, each with our own little space inside it. Our ancestors helped build the house and protect it from outside elements. Some occupants want to protect the house from outside elements in terms of who comes in, what they do and how it affects their little space inside the house. Locks, mirror, video cameras, alarms and other security are in place. The a small portion of occupants start to leave the doors and windows unlocked and others actual invite anyone who wants to come uninvited to wander around inside. These 'leisure' occupants start fighting with the occupants who want the intention of protection to be honored and even tightened. While the internal strife continues, the house is deteriorating and in danger of losing lives again from intruders. Heck, the intruders don't care about the internal strife.....they just want to take over the house.....and they are. > The difficult part of all this is distinguishing who are terrorists > and who are not, and who are they terrorizing and how. I remember [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > don't care about the internal strife.....they just want to take over > the house.....and they are. I absolutely agree. Our country today is only a mere shadow of what it has been in the past. Think about this for a moment however - if you have read the positions of ALL candidates running for the presidency. Name just one that seems to have what it takes to get a handle on the illegal immigration problem??? Almost universally, they seem to pander to the immigrant vote, while white washing the problem. Not a single one will adamently say, "send them back home." If we can't secure our borders, and if we are unwilling to get a grip on that one issue, than how can we expect to have a handle on something as threatening as terrorism? >I absolutely agree. Our country today is only a mere shadow of what >it has been in the past. Think about this for a moment however - if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >seem to pander to the immigrant vote, while white washing the >problem. Not a single one will adamently say, "send them back home." You haven't heard of Tancredo, now have you? Not that this crap has any relevance to any of the newsgroups to which it's being posted, other than maybe misc.headlines. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "Saddam Hussein was a bad man, connected with some incredibly dangerous people: Cheney, Rumsfeld, George Galloway." -- Marcus Brigstocke > Yep, only in America, can American GIs collaterally surrender their > minds, bodies and ultimately their lives, to the US military to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > In America, we not only have Free Speech, but more often than not, we > have a perversion of Free Speech. You forgot the complain abut that homophobic hate group that demonstrates at funerals. The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started by the Liar-In-Chief aided by the Chief Chicken Hawk. >>>>>> I 10000000% disagree with the Military / Industrial Complex >>>>>> propaganda posted here regarding the attempts at silencing the voices [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - > The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them > home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started > by the Liar-In-Chief aided by the Chief Chicken Hawk. One thing I agree on - this time we continue to honor the troops, where in Vietnam we did not! I still believe that a veteran's funeral is absolutely no where that a protest should be going on. In my eyes that's not Free Speech - that's a perversion of Free Speech! You and I are on the very same page about THIS WAR! > > The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them > > home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > is absolutely no where that a protest should be going on. In my eyes > that's not Free Speech - that's a perversion of Free Speech! That is where the line is drawn. 'Funeral protesters' (like those at parades) have been allowed to demonstrate at a distance, but they are not allowed to be inside of the funeral ceremony with their ill mannered disruptions. Motorcycle funeral escorts post themselves in a line on the opposite side of the street from the protesters, armed with high flags, and patriotic music to drown the protesters screaming.....so the family can have their dignified privacy. I don't buy that crap about protesting supposedly to bring the troops home quicker..... Disrespecting someone's funeral is on the same level as spitting on returning vets. > I don't buy that crap about protesting supposedly to bring the troops > home quicker..... Disrespecting someone's funeral is on the same > level as spitting on returning vets. Coleah....I agree with you on this point. I am for people protesting the war if that is what they are truly protesting, and actually know what it is they are protesting about. It's easy to get on someone else's agenda, by people that are easily influenced by others; protesting at funeral parlors is not the right venue to protest the death of anyone. People that do this kind of action clearly have no disrespect for the family and friends of the service member, but clearly have no respect for our Country as well. Not one of us is forced to live here but we choose to live in the U.S.A., because of all of the freedoms we have in this country, and those freedoms weren't just handed down and given to us, they were fought for, and earned by the very service personnel that have fought to defend our country year after year after year. So when I see people that engage in this type of behavior, I always tell them, your right to protest came from the service men and women that serve and have served our country. And if you don't support the military and country you are living in, I highly suggest moving to another country where your freedoms will not be as great as they are here. I've lived in other countries, and been to other countries, and personally know there is nothing as wonderful as the good old U.S.A. > > I don't buy that crap about protesting supposedly to bring the troops > > home quicker..... Disrespecting someone's funeral is on the same [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > wonderful as the > good old U.S.A. Thanks, Debbee. I couldn't agree with you more. > Thanks, Debbee. > I couldn't agree with you more. Coleah, I come from a long line of patriotic Americans. My great great great grandfather was Dr. Joseph Lovell, who was the First Surgeon General of the Army. Blair House in Washington DC was built for him. Two of my cousins that I know have served as U.S. Senators, one past, and one present. And Apollo 13 was built (ha) for yet another cousin. Our entire family throughout history has supported the troops; and being a military brat (Dad was a Cdr, spent 30 years in the Navy) , and military wife (as both an enlisted wife, then when he advanced to an Officer's wife) afforded me the opportunity to see places in this world that I probably would not have seen if I had grown up in a military free family.....again, there is no place like the good old U.S.A., and although I appreciate the fact that people have the right to demonstrate against any war, there are some individuals that think that demonstrating against our troops is OK too, but it is not the same thing, and when people do this, they might as well spit on the American flag as well. That's why I always say, if you do not like the U.S.A., you don't have to live here, there are plenty of other places that might have room for you, but you won't find the same liberties as we have here, thanks to the efforts of our very own Veterans. > > Thanks, Debbee. > > I couldn't agree with you more. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > find the same liberties as we have here, thanks to the efforts of our > very own Veterans. ***** Your family is rich in military history and contribution to country. I understand the 'love it or leave it' appreciation of the U.S.A.; I literally kissed the ground at an airport upon returning from foreign duty. > ***** > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I literally kissed the ground at an airport upon returning from > foreign duty. I have also the same kind of support for those that choose to demean the present president, and have been on campaigns to impeach the President. The have been presidents that were not exactly my favorite leaders, but the people have chosen those individuals as leaders, and out of respect for country, I respected those individuals as the head of our country. We choose individuals that we believe are going to have everyone's best interests at heart, but as you and I know that it would be only in a perfect world, that every election promise was made. The fate of those election promises lies in the hands of Congress as well. I'm not a big fan of lobbyists, nor do I believe that any interest group should have any major influence on the way our country is run. But I believe that people that are involved in our government should be fair to all, "with liberty and justice for all." This newsgroup often talks about the frauds of individuals trying to make a buck off of innocent people by selling health care items that may or may not work. Innocent people being taken advantage of > This newsgroup often talks about the frauds of individuals > trying to make a buck off of innocent people by selling > health care items that may or may not work--but it happens in both the alternative health care world, and the pharmaceutical world as well. What ruffles my feathers is that our Veterans upon returning home from any war or conflict are not given the best possible care, and the injured often have pain pills pushed on them, to the point of addiction. I've visited many a Vet Hospital where I've been told by Vets that pain medicine is easy to get, and feel that they have become dependent on drugs instead of being rehabilitated so they aren't dependent on pain medicine the rest of their lives. The war scars (mental, emotional, and physical) that many of our Vets have, have not been properly addressed throughout the years. I understand about the sucide rate, because I do not feel that our government properly addresses these issues prior to sending service men and women to war so that they are best prepared for any possible outcome. And I also do not think that our government properly addresses the general population to make them aware of the special understanding and needs of our Veterans returning from war; It ought to be a crime to openly make fun of any individual that has served our country; and not support them when they return home. I understand that there are people that do not support the notion that our country has engaged in wars where they do not feel we have belonged and that is fine, but anyone that makes fun of our Veterans should be held accountable for their actions. (I had to answer my own rest of post. Nothing like the sun blinding my eyes, and hitting the reply button by accident!!) > > This newsgroup often talks about the frauds of individuals > > trying to make a buck off of innocent people by selling [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > (I had to answer my own rest of post. Nothing like the sun > blinding my eyes, and hitting the reply button by accident!!) *** I noticed the other day that the VA website has a special section on suicide prevention for those discharged from the service. I know active military has focused counseling (for those returning who choose to stay in the service). Family, friends, co-workers, etc are the first line of support and need to be observant. Our reservists and their families have enormous burdens upon returning. Most have unit support systems in place, or veteran organizations to address special needs. I've heard warm stories about community support as well. Many veterans express frustration that everyday positive stories don't get much media support, and isolated negative stories seem to get way too much attention. >> I don't buy that crap about protesting supposedly to bring the troops >> home quicker..... Disrespecting someone's funeral is on the same [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > friends of the > service member, but clearly have no respect for our Country as well. I think you meant respect. > Not > one of us is forced to live here but we choose to live in the U.S.A., [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > your > freedoms will not be as great as they are here. Disagree. I want them to protest, whine, complain, etc. Our rights are like muscles, made stronger by exercising them. Our rights do not protect popular speech, since popular speech needs no protecting. I've lived in > other countries, > and been to other countries, and personally know there is nothing as > wonderful as the > good old U.S.A. > >> I don't buy that crap about protesting supposedly to bring the troops > >> home quicker..... Disrespecting someone's funeral is on the same [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > - Show quoted text - For some people that kind of 'exercizing their muscle' becomes an unbalanced, perpetually unsatisfied way of life.....they become a mere fill-in-the-blank 'cause', looking for a place to happen. So sad. >>> The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them >>> home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 'Funeral protesters' (like those at parades) have been allowed to > demonstrate at a distance, I am offended by the idea that they need to be allowed. but they are not allowed to be inside of > the funeral ceremony with their ill mannered disruptions. Motorcycle > funeral escorts post themselves in a line on the opposite side of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > home quicker..... Disrespecting someone's funeral is on the same > level as spitting on returning vets. > >>> The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them > >>> home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Huh? You say that you are offended that people who want to make complete and utter a.ses of themselves are "allowed" (freedom, freedom's in general...and all that) to disrupt a funeral.....but from a 'distance'? Face it, the grace and dignity of this country has been tainted and replaced by a 'free-wheeling'...'anything goes' mentality. Demands of freedom 'entitlements' are in vogue. >>>>> The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them >>>>> home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Demands of freedom 'entitlements' are in vogue. There are two totally dissimilar circumstances being discussed. One, where the speaker wants to express their ideas at a public forum, e.g., a state sanctioned parade, and the other, a private affair, i.e. a funeral. In the former, I feel that the right of free speech is nearly absolute and any infringement, such as dictating location, violates that right. In the latter, the exercise of speech is within private business. Restrictions to ensure the right of the person to be private Here's the article that demonstrates a perversion of free speech: US church fined millions for picketing military funeral in anti-gay protest Oct 31, 2007 BALTIMORE, United States (AFP) -- A US jury ordered an evangelical church Wednesday to pay nearly 11 million dollars in damages for picketing the funeral of a Marine killed in Iraq and claiming the war was punishment for tolerating gays. The nine-member federal jury ruled that members of the Kansas-based Westboro Baptist Church caused mental suffering to Albert Snyder, who says he became depressed after they paraded outside the funeral of his 20-year-old son Matthew in 2006. They waved signs reading "Thank God for dead soldiers," and "Fag troops." A video of the protests was played in court during the week-long trial of Fred Phelps, who founded the church in 1955, and two of his daughters, Shirley Phelps-Roper and Rebekah Phelps-Davis. Their lawyer Jonathan Katz said the funeral was a public event and their actions were protected by the constitutional rights to free speech and religious expression. But the jury decided the church members should pay 2.9 million dollars in compensatory damages and a further eight million dollars in punitive damages, said Snyder's attorney Craig Trebilcock. The church says the United States is losing troops because it tolerates gays, including in the military -- hence the many protests it has held at military funerals such as Snyder's. The late soldier's sexuality was not an issue at the trial. Church members say they have carried out similar pickets more than 30,000 times, but the Baltimore case was the first time they had been taken to court. > >>>>> The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them > >>>>> home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > Here's the article that demonstrates a perversion of free speech: A funeral is a private matter. A parade is not. I had some fun with these dipshits when they tried to turn a disgusting event in our school district into an anti-gay nightmare. > US church fined millions for picketing military funeral in anti-gay > protest [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - > I had some fun with these dipshits when they tried to turn a disgusting > event in our school district into an anti-gay nightmare. I could give a rip what anyone's sexual orientation is. If I like someone or do not like someone is not based on their sexual orientation, it is based on their values, and their ethics, and principles in life. I don't understand what all of the fuss is about sexual orientation bashing. There are two sexes; male and female. What people choose to do on their off time, in their own bedrooms is not my business, anymore than what I do is their business. It is when people put their sexual orientation out in public view is when they subject their sexual orientation preferences to criticism, and want the want more "rights." We all have those same rights whether we are male or female. . > > I had some fun with these dipshits when they tried to turn a disgusting > > event in our school district into an anti-gay nightmare. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > . I'll have to say that as a naive 18 yr old who knew nothing about lesbians, I got an education at my permanent duty station, which was not near the regimentation of Boot Camp. Underwear was disappearing from the dryer racks and I thought it odd that a thief would want somebody's used things. One night a woman sat naked in the common isle babbling and bashing her head on the floor. I had never encountered such behavior in a social living environment. An NCO with a 'strong arm' approach was intimidating new women into 'loaning' her money. My early observations left me with an incohesive feeling of two different groups. It was an uncomfortable environment to live in. After an investigation, 1/4 of the women at the base were discharged for being lesbians. Everything calmed down after that. I understood of course why women were not forced to shower with men, but had never thought of women looking upon other women in that kind of lustful way....or the chaotic behaviors associated with the lifestyle. > . > > I'll have to say that as a naive 18 yr old who knew nothing about > lesbians, I got an education at my permanent duty station, which was > not near the regimentation of Boot Camp. > An NCO with a 'strong arm' approach was intimidating new women into > 'loaning' her money. My early observations left me with an incohesive [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of lustful way....or the chaotic behaviors associated with the > lifestyle. I was 24 living in P'Cola, Florida, and my first experience with something not being right, was using the Navy Hospital on base for an ob-gyn appointment. I was a little on the modest side in those days, and having someone as a doctor that was female as an ob-gyn doctor, I thought would be great, someone more understanding, etc., what transpired at the visit was not right. I let the party know from the first approach, I knew the visit was not proper. Here I was the wife of an enlisted man. I knew they wouldn't listen to me. I said something to my neighbor, and she said she had had the same approach, and she knew of other wives that had had the same tactic used on them. They had tried to file complaints but nothing had happened. I had to go in for a re-check a week later. I brought my neighbor and her friends with me; they waited in the waiting room. When the doctor attempted to try the same approach she had tried before with me, I let out an ear piercing scream, followed by a yell, "get your filthy hands off of me." The room door came flying open, and there were two doctors in the room, and they asked what was wrong, and I said she was doing something very inappropriately for a doctor, and I'm not her kind. She was taken from the room, and I was taken down the hall, and questioned. The rest of the women that were with me were questioned. There was an investigation, and she was removed from the base. It was an education that I haven't forgotten 30 years later!! > > . > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > from the base. > It was an education that I haven't forgotten 30 years later!! I didn't encounter female doctors, but the Navy Corps Waves I encountered at the Marine base medical facility were bad enough. I had one who put me in an female exam room and told me to disrobe. She stood there taking every stitch of clothing I removed, folding them neatly and putting them on a chair. After handing me a sheet and getting me all 'positioned' in the stirips, she stood there staring at my exposed area. I had no idea that all women did not experience the same treatment. I had little experience to base 'normal and usual' treatment on. It was only my second female exam ever......the first experience was in a big room in boot camp which had a series of 10 partitions (screened off on 3 sides with the front wide open). Ten young women were ushered in at a time (in only robes), positioned on tables, while a couple of doctors rapidly went from partition to partition. There were 100 women to herd through; there was very little interaction and certainly not 'relaxing' for a first experience. And again, after 1/4 of the women were rousted and discharged, the kind of behavior I experienced during the second exam ceased happening too. Are you still with a reserve unit now? Is there any possibility of returning to active duty again? > Are you still with a reserve unit now? Is there any > possibility of returning to active duty again? I was active duty Marine Corps back in 1963 and spent time with Air Force Reserves units in Utah, Washington and Oregon until the mid 80's. Too old for active duty now, but I and a bunch of other old farts would happily return to some form of active duty to help out with whatever jobs we'd fit into. > I was active duty Marine Corps back in 1963 and > spent time with Air Force Reserves units in Utah, Washington > and Oregon until the mid 80's. Too old for active duty now, > but I and a bunch of other old farts would happily return to > some form of active duty to help out with whatever jobs we'd > fit into. That's always nice to hear. Good for you!! I can tell by reading your posts that you were happy to serve our country... that's just too cool.....thanks again, it's people like yourself, that make my day!! >> I had some fun with these dipshits when they tried to turn a disgusting >> event in our school district into an anti-gay nightmare. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > principles in life. I don't understand what all of the fuss is about > sexual orientation bashing. It is the inability some people have in accepting differences. > There are two sexes; male and female. > What people choose to do on their off time, in their own bedrooms is > not my business, Good idea, but bad for telescope sales. > anymore than what I do is their business. Trust me, 'we" are not interested. It is > when people put their sexual orientation out in public view is when > they subject their sexual orientation preferences to criticism, Agreed. When two heterosexuals share a public passionate kiss, it disgusts me, too. and > want the want more "rights." Wrongo. They do not want more rights, just the same ones heterosexuals take for granted. We all have those same rights whether we > are male or female. Yes, we males have the right to get pregnant. > Yes, we males have the right to get pregnant. Mark - I agree with you 100%. You males do have a right to get pregnant. And I recall in the last moments of labor during delivering my 4 children, I stood straight up in the stirrups, gave a couple of blood curdling screams proclaiming that I would happily fork over the job to you;-) >> Yes, we males have the right to get pregnant. > > Mark - I agree with you 100%. Chuckle...I thought you would say that. You males do have a right to get > pregnant. And I recall in the last moments of labor during delivering > my 4 children, I stood straight up in the stirrups, gave a couple of > blood curdling screams proclaiming that I would happily fork over the > job to you;-) >>> I had some fun with these dipshits when they tried to turn a disgusting >>> event in our school district into an anti-gay nightmare. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Yes, we males have the right to get pregnant. And sob thier heart's out during labor and delivery. > >>>>> The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them > >>>>> home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - Show quoted text - 'Free speech' has nothing to do with which groups are approved and accepted into a parade line up. Not just anyone can show up and horn in. Were war protestors inside the Thanksgiving Day parade? >>>>>>> The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them >>>>>>> home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > accepted into a parade line up. Not just anyone can show up and horn > in. Once the state plants that imprimatur of support, anyone should be able to "horn in". > Were war protestors inside the Thanksgiving Day parade? No, because it was not a political, etc. parade. > >>>>>>> The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them > >>>>>>> home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The Veterans Day Parade is not 'political'. Entries must be approved and logistics planned for, far in advance. >>>>>>>>> The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them >>>>>>>>> home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > The Veterans Day Parade is not 'political'. Au contraire. I have yet to see a Veteran's Day Parade that is not political, maybe not in the partisan sense, but certainly political in a generic sense. Entries must be approved > and logistics planned for, far in advance. The fact that entries must be approved makes it political. If the entry is not acceptable because of their views, then it is political. > Face it, the grace and dignity of this country has been > tainted and replaced by a 'free-wheeling'...'anything goes' > mentality. Right on Coleah!! I've thought this way for a long time, and everyone seems to be off doing their thing, and they don't care who they step on, who they rip off, or who they hurt....parents sue school districts because a teacher looks at their kid wrong, people sue because they don't like the words, "In God We Trust" on the money, or like saying the pledge, with "under God" in it. This country needs to get back to basics, back to where our founding fathers laid the foundation for this country, and anyone that doesn't like it needs to either rethink the equation, or move to another country. Everyone screams, "My rights," but don't care whose feet they step on to get their rights. People get angry when you discuss the immigration problem here, yet we have politicians voting against (thanks for that great article), English as the official language, and wanting illegal immigrants to have driver's licenses. Do other countries do this? No. In some countries, U.S. citizens cannot buy land, but we allow non citizens to own land. Our social security system is in a mess. This is OUR money that we and our employers have paid into all of our lives, and they tell us baby boomers that there might not money there when we go to retire? Well, whose fault is it that the social security system has gone haywire? The race for the White House should be pretty interesting. There are enough of us that are pretty well disgusted by the way our country is being run and are pretty disgusted with the way some of the political leaders have shifted their points of view to be their own points of view, and not necessarily are reflective of the general population that they represent. There are a lot of people on their own agenda which is ruining this country. I've said for the past 10 years, that I wouldn't be surprised that we end up with a revolution within our own country. Your absolutely right, Coleah, we have been tainted, and it's time to get back to the foundations laid by our forefathers, and take our own country back. >> Face it, the grace and dignity of this country has been >> tainted and replaced by a 'free-wheeling'...'anything goes' [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > we go to retire? Well, whose fault is it that the social security > system has gone haywire? Certainly not undocumented immigrants. They cannot collect any benefits from any of the trust funds since they do not pay into them due to lack of a SS number. > The race for the White House should be pretty interesting. There > are enough of us that are pretty well disgusted by the way our > country is being run and are pretty disgusted with the way some of > the political leaders have shifted their points of view to be their > own points of view, Yes, we should not have politicians who shift their points of view to their points of view. and not necessarily are reflective of the general > population that they represent. Then they won't get elected, unless they steal the election like in 2000, or scare the populace like in 2004. > There are a lot of people on their own agenda which is ruining > this country. People should be on everyone else's agenda. I've said for the past 10 years, that I wouldn't be > surprised that we end up with a revolution within our own country. > Your absolutely right, Coleah, we have been tainted, and it's time > to get back to the foundations laid by our forefathers, and take > our own country back. Take it back from whom? Other Americans? > Yes, we should not have politicians who shift their points of view to > their points of view. I certainly do not like the politicians that switch back and forth on issues. > Then they won't get elected, unless they steal the election like in > 2000, or scare the populace like in 2004. Why do you feel that the election was stolen in 2000? >>Take it back from whom? Other Americans? Get back to basics. Stop supporting other countries that some Americans still view as "their homeland." I hear people all of the time say, "My country," and then in the next breath, state the name of a country that is not the USA. Then I always ask them, "oh, I didn't know you weren't a citizen." Then they say that they are. And then I remind them if they are, then their country is the U.S.A., but their heritage is wherever they are from. >> Yes, we should not have politicians who shift their points of view to >> their points of view. > I certainly do not like the politicians that switch back and > forth on > issues. You missedmy point. >> Then they won't get elected, unless they steal the election like in >> 2000, or scare the populace like in 2004. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Get back to basics. Stop supporting other countries that some > Americans still view as "their homeland." Such as? List a few. I hear people all of > the time say, "My country," and then in the next breath, state the > name of a country [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > their country > is the U.S.A., but their heritage is wherever they are from. The ever so helpful Debbee...straightening people out..... > You missedmy point. Please clarify your point. > >> Then they won't get elected, unless they steal the election like in > >> 2000, or scare the populace like in 2004. > > Why do you feel that the election was stolen in 2000? Are you referring to the election problems? I might not be 100% happy with everything that every one of our Presidents have done but you won't see me carrying a sign that is says Impeach the President. > Such as? List a few. I've become fascinated by reading about the financial aid globally. http://www.globalissues.org/ I think the % of the financial aid that the US. gives Israel for example is around 40% of all financial aid handed out. I'd like to see the U.S. start cutting this percentage back. When countries are expecting the financial aid it hampers growth of their own countries. It appears to be no different than the welfare system in the U.S. that needs severe overhauling. Our social security system is on the verge of being bankrupt. Why should be send money to other countries when our own people need it? The U.S. has been generous in times of disaster, (and that I do not have a problem with this) but the money we send to other countries could very well be put into strengthening our Military, taking better care of our Veteran, fixing our healthcare system, etc. The U.S. has been far too generous for far too long. > The ever so helpful Debbee...straightening people out..... It's not a case straightening people out, it is a sense of pride in being a citizen. When people become citizens they should be proud of their country, and be happy that they are living in a country where the freedoms they have are much greater than the freedoms they didn't have in their former countries. Pride of citizenship is a cool thing. >> You missedmy point. > > Please clarify your point. If I have to explain it, you would not understand it. >>>> Then they won't get elected, unless they steal the election like in >>>> 2000, or scare the populace like in 2004. >>> Why do you feel that the election was stolen in 2000? Because it was? Duh? > Are you referring to the election problems? I might not be 100% happy > with everything that every one of our Presidents have done but you > won't see me carrying a sign that is says Impeach the President. That is a non sequitur. >> Such as? List a few. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > financial aid handed out. I'd like to see the U.S. start cutting this > percentage back. Somehow I just knew that you would mention Israel first. Sort of like expecting sunrise and sunset in the morning and evening. Of course, you overlook the fact that Israel is the only democracy in the region, it can be counted on for support, and most of the aid is military aid, for which we get a lot in return. When > countries are expecting the financial aid it hampers growth of their > own countries. Sometimes. However, Israel most certainly does not fit that. It appears to be no different than the welfare > system in the U.S. that needs severe overhauling. Like how? > Our social security system is on the verge of being bankrupt. Why > should be send money to other [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > our healthcare system, etc. The U.S. has been far too generous for > far too long. Of course, the US is not the most generous country in the world. In fact, in some respects, we are cheap. Note that your website above supports this position. >> The ever so helpful Debbee...straightening people out..... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > former > countries. Pride of citizenship is a cool thing. To a dregree. When it becomes jingoism that is another story. > Because it was? Duh? I do not think it was stolen, although we might not agree to what transpired, I certainly doubt anything was done wrong. I think some people just didn't like the outcome because it didn't go their way. > Somehow I just knew that you would mention Israel first. Sort of like > expecting sunrise and sunset in the morning and evening. And what would be wrong with stating this? I watched a segment on You Tube. Apparently I'm not the only person that feels the money we send to other countries should be used to benefit our own people, and not others. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As_6HRXnKXw > Of course, you overlook the fact that Israel is the only democracy in > the region, it can be counted on for support, and most of the aid is > military aid, for which we get a lot in return. I think we get a lot of headaches in return. . > Like how? Like why should we be supporting other countries economies when our own economy needs help, and our own military needs better equipment? Have you not heard about the record number of people that are losing their homes right now due to the outrageous numbers of foreclosures? Don't you feel that the taxpayers of the United States should come first (after all a good % of it is their money) before handing out money to other countries? > Of course, the US is not the most generous country in the world. In > fact, in some respects, we are cheap. Note that your website above > supports this position. This is not my website, but a website I have been reading, as well as a whole host of others, reading numerous peoples ideas about financial aid to other countries and how other Americans (from different heritages and cultures) feel about our over generous donations to other countries. Being frugal is OK, the American people should come first, and then whatever is left over, should be what we loan out or give depending on circumstances to other countries. But, I just don't think we should be just handing over big bucks. A lot of of own country's headaches in the Middle East have come from the money we have given out to support other countries. Pride of citizenship is a cool thing. > To a dregree. When it becomes jingoism that is another story. What would even prompt you to say that? >> Because it was? Duh? > > I do not think it was stolen, although we might not agree to what > transpired, I certainly doubt anything was > done wrong. I think some people just didn't like the outcome because > it didn't go their way. Your editing makes it hard to follow your thoughts. Nope, the election was clearly stolen. There was massive voter fraud in Florida, where thousands in pro-Gore districts were denied a vote. >> Somehow I just knew that you would mention Israel first. Sort of like >> expecting sunrise and sunset in the morning and evening. > > And what would be wrong with stating this? Your history, Toots. I watched a segment on > You Tube. Apparently I'm not the only person that feels the money we > send to other countries should be used to benefit our own people, and > not > others. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As_6HRXnKXw Israel is a staunch and loyal ally. Money is far better spent on your friends. >> Of course, you overlook the fact that Israel is the only democracy in >> the region, it can be counted on for support, and most of the aid is >> military aid, for which we get a lot in return. > > I think we get a lot of headaches in return. Headaches in return? Like how? > . >> Like how? > > Like why should we be supporting other countries economies when our > own economy needs help, and our own military needs better equipment? We are not supporting Israel's economy. We are getting back heavy duty returns from our investment in Israel. > Have you not heard about the record number of people that are losing > their homes right now [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > their money) before > handing out money to other countries? We should more wisely spend our money, like ending the waste in Iraq. One week of the war would solve the foreclosure problem. Another week would provide health care for all. We spend damn little on foreign aid according to the website you cited. >> Of course, the US is not the most generous country in the world. In >> fact, in some respects, we are cheap. Note that your website above [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > countries. But, > I just don't think we should be just handing over big bucks. If you "think" that ending foreign aid will result in the money coming home, you are no student of history, just like Bush. A lot of > of own country's > headaches in the Middle East have come from the money we have given > out to support > other countries. Explain. > Pride of citizenship is a cool thing. >> To a dregree. When it becomes jingoism that is another story. > > What would even prompt you to say that? Reality. >>> You missedmy point. >> >> Please clarify your point. > > If I have to explain it, you would not understand it. So...you cannot explain it. Groups View all web results » Results 1 - 10 of 571 for markprobert@lumbercartel. com you would not understand it >>>>> Then they won't get elected, unless they steal the election like in >>>>> 2000, or scare the populace like in 2004. [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > To a dregree. When it becomes jingoism that is another story. >> The anti-war protesters are looking to save GI's lives by getting them >> home before they are wasted in a war that should never have been started [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You and I are on the very same page about THIS WAR! I do not recall any stories about anti-war protesters, other than that homophobic Christian church, demonstrating at funerals. Why does GWB pardon turkeys? Practice for 1/19/09. > >>>> I 10000000% disagree with the Military / Industrial Complex > >>>> propaganda posted here regarding the attempts at silencing the voices [quoted text clipped - 120 lines] > > - Show quoted text - You miss the point...... Anyone encouraging a community's youth to question authority (government, parents, teachers, law inforcement) should jolly well be thrilled to have THEIR own authority questioned. Obviously they had no idea what it takes to be in a responsible position of 'authority' themselves......but they know how to bitch about others who are. > You miss the point...... > Anyone encouraging a community's youth to question authority > (government, parents, teachers, law inforcement) should jolly well be > thrilled to have THEIR own authority questioned. Obviously they had > no idea what it takes to be in a responsible position of 'authority' > themselves......but they know how to bitch about others who are.- What bothers me most about the ole, "Question Authority" idea, is that those who propose it actually express it, to encourage abandonment of existing authority, in order to create a vacuum of the mind to fill with their own garbage. A close friend began having trouble with a teenaged daughter back in the 1970s. A school counselor told the girl in veiled terms, she didn't have to listen to her parents. Between the girls peers, and the counselor's urgings, the girl soon was heavily involved in drugs, crime, and on the road to destruction of her life. Between peer pressure, and the new found friend in the school counselor's office - the parents had NO AUTHORITY. I find it so ironic, that schools which are supposed to be charged with educating our children, are at the time when our children are failing in the 3 Rs, are being handed birth control without parental knowledge at age 11 in some schools. I resent that schools would think they have the AUTHORITY to take that into their realm. The idea that schools would usurp parental authority of children, to enter into such an area is inexcusable. Where will the school be, when the eleven year olds come up with complications from birth control pills, and other life altering decisions while involving themselves into the lives of children, which parents may ultimately be required to mop up after, even though they had no part to. I remember when my second daughter was born, there was an seventeen year old girl, in the room next to me, who had become hospitalized because of an IUD, provided by some health clinic. The IUD had managed to migrate into the uterine wall, become horribly infected, and ultimately the girl had to undergo a complete hysterectomy. Her parents, who had never known about the IUD, were devastated, and left responsible for the medical bills. If someone states "Question Authority" - It's likely because they want you to park existing authority, so they can replace it with their's. And, if they can get funding for stomping on your authority in the process, they like it even better! |
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