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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / November 2007

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'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials

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Roman Bystrianyk - 19 Oct 2007 17:23 GMT
Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News
Today, September 25, 2007,
Link: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/83363.php

Generations of studies on vitamin E may be largely meaningless,
scientists say, because new research has demonstrated that the levels
of this micronutrient necessary to reduce oxidative stress are far
higher than those that have been commonly used in clinical trials.

In a new study and commentary in Free Radical Biology and Medicine,
researchers concluded that the levels of vitamin E necessary to reduce
oxidative stress -- as measured by accepted biomarkers of lipid
peroxidation -- are about 1,600 to 3,200 I.U. daily, or four to eight
times higher than those used in almost all past clinical trials.

This could help explain the inconsistent results of many vitamin E
trials for its value in preventing or treating cardiovascular disease,
said Balz Frei, professor and director of the Linus Pauling Institute
at Oregon State University, and co-author of the new commentary along
with Jeffrey Blumberg, at the Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research
Center on Aging at Tufts University.

"The methodology used in almost all past clinical trials of vitamin E
has been fatally flawed," said Frei, one of the world's leading
experts on antioxidants and disease. "These trials supposedly
addressed the hypothesis that reducing oxidative stress could reduce
cardiovascular disease. But oxidative stress was never measured in
these trials, and therefore we don't know whether it was actually
reduced or not. The hypothesis was never really tested."

The level of vitamin E that clearly can be shown to reduce oxidative
stress, new research is showing, is far higher than the level that
could be obtained in any diet, and is also above the "tolerable upper
intake level" outlined by the Institute of Medicine, which is 1,000
I.U. a day. OSU researchers are not yet recommending that people
should routinely take such high levels, but they do say that
controlled clinical trials studying this issue should be aware of the
latest findings and seriously consider using much higher vitamin E
supplement levels in their studies.

In lab, animal or human studies, there's evidence that vitamin E can
reduce oxidative stress, inhibit formation of atherosclerotic lesions,
slow aortic thickening, lower inflammation, and reduce platelet
adhesion. Some human studies using lower levels of vitamin E
supplements, such as 100 to 400 I.U. a day, have shown benefits in
reducing cardiovascular disease risk, and others have not. An
underlying assumption was that these levels were more than adequate to
reduce oxidative stress, since they far exceeded the "recommended
dietary allowance" or RDA for the vitamin, a level adequate to prevent
deficiency disease.

"What's now clear is that the amount of vitamin E than can
conclusively be shown to reduce oxidative stress is higher than we
realized," Frei said. "And almost none of the studies done with
vitamin E actually measured the beginning level or reduction of
oxidative stress."

Proper studies of vitamin E, researchers say, must be done carefully
and take into account the newest findings about this micronutrient.
It's now known that natural forms of the vitamin are far more readily
absorbed than synthetic types. It's also been discovered that
supplements taken without a fat-containing meal are largely useless,
because in the absence of dietary fat vitamin E is not absorbed.

Some clinical trials may wish to study the long term effect of
vitamins on healthy individuals. But if a clinical trial seeks to
learn the value of reducing oxidative stress, they should select
patients in advance for those who have high, measurable oxidative
stress -- often people who are older or have a range of heart disease
risk factors, such as obesity, poor diet, hypertension or other
problems. Cognizance should also be taken of people with health issues
that may further increase their vitamin needs, such as smokers.

"A pill count simply isn't enough to determine the value of vitamin
E," Frei said. "We need to select people for trials properly, make
sure they are taking the right form of the vitamin, at the right
levels and at the right time, and then verify the metabolic results
with laboratory testing."

"Only when we do these studies right will we answer questions about
the value of vitamin E in addressing cardiovascular disease," he said.
"So far we've been flying blind."

A parallel, Frei said, would be presuming to test the value of a
statin drug, which lowers cholesterol, without ever measuring
cholesterol levels in the test subjects, neither at the beginning nor
at the end of the study. Such trials would be ridiculed in the science
community.

So far, that's the way vitamin E has been studied.

The use and intake of vitamins, experts say, has traditionally been
thought of in terms of overt deficiency -- for example, not enough
vitamin C causes scurvy. Much less research has been done on the
levels that can help create optimum health. The issue is of special
importance with modern populations that have very different diets,
activity levels and increased lifespan, and are dying from much
different causes -- predominantly heart disease and cancer -- than
people of past generations.
Juhana Harju - 19 Oct 2007 17:41 GMT
> Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News
> Today, September 25, 2007,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> peroxidation -- are about 1,600 to 3,200 I.U. daily, or four to eight
> times higher than those used in almost all past clinical trials.

The problem is that even lower doses of vitamin E increase the risk of
hemorrhagic strokes.

Signature

Juhana

http://ruohikolla.blogspot.com/

trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 20 Oct 2007 04:08 GMT
> > Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News
> > Today, September 25, 2007,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> http://ruohikolla.blogspot.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------
I'll submit that in the context of high dose vitamin E,  a
vitamin K supplement should drop this risk to the
average population rate or lower. There is evidence
high dose vitamin E lowers the amount of vitamin K
that is absorbed. And it should be recalled
much of the population is getting less than an optimal
level of vitamin K and many are even failing
to get the pathetically low RDA.

It seem to me the use of an isolated vitamin E supplement
without additional K by way of a supplement of K1 or K2
or the consumption of extra dark green leafy vegetables or certain
fermented foods i.e. natto.

Too little vitamin K would have a two pronged risk for
stroke. One, slower clotting would be permissive for
worse strokes and two the lack of vitamin K
would make vascular calcification more likely.

Personally I take a vitamin K supplement as well
as a vitamin E supplement.

See what the result for studies in
rats and chickens indicate in the following:

Nutr Metab (Lond). 2006 Jul 20;3:29.

Extrahepatic tissue concentrations of vitamin K are lower in rats fed
a high
vitamin E diet.

Tovar A, Ameho CK, Blumberg JB, Peterson JW, Smith D, Booth SL.

Vitamin K Laboratory,
Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at
Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111, USA.
alison.tovar@tufts.edu

BACKGROUND:
An adverse hematological interaction between vitamins E and K has
been reported, primarily in patients on anticoagulants. However,
little is known
regarding circulating levels or tissue concentrations of vitamin K in
response to
vitamin E supplementation. The purpose of this study was to examine
the effect of
different levels of dietary alpha-tocopherol on phylloquinone and
menaquinone-4
concentrations, while maintaining a constant intake of phylloquinone,
in rat
tissues.

METHODS: Male 4-wk old Fischer 344 rats (n = 33) were fed one of 3
diets
for 12 wk: control (n = 13) with 30 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol
acetate/kg diet;
vitamin E-supplemented (n = 10) with 100 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol
acetate/kg
diet; and vitamin E-restricted (n = 10) with <10 mg total tocopherols/
kg diet.
All 3 diets contained 470 +/- 80 microg phylloquinone/kg diet.

RESULTS:
Phylloquinone concentrations were lower (P < or = 0.05) in the vitamin
E-supplemented compared to the vitamin E-restricted group (mean +/- SD
spleen:
531 +/- 58 vs. 735 +/- 77; kidney: 20 +/- 17 vs. 94 +/- 31, brain: 53
+/- 19 vs.
136 +/- 97 pmol/g protein respectively); no statistically significant
differences
between groups were found in plasma, liver or testis. Similar results
were noted
with menaquinone-4 concentrations in response to vitamin E
supplementation.

CONCLUSION: There appears to be a tissue-specific interaction between
vitamins E
and K when vitamin E is supplemented in rat diets. Future research is
required to
elucidate the mechanism for this nutrient-nutrient interaction.

PMID: 16857056

1: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1997;67(4):242-7.

Interaction of vitamins E and K:
effect of high dietary vitamin E on
phylloquinone activity in chicks.

Frank J, Weiser H, Biesalski HK.

Department of Biological Chemistry and Nutrition,
Universit?t Hohenheim,
Stuttgart, Germany.

To determine the influence of vitamin E on phylloquinone activity, one
day-old
chicks were raised on a masch diet supplemented with different amounts
of vitamin
E for 31 days. In chicks fed a diet high in vitamin E (4000 mg
allrac-alpha-tocopheryl acetate/kg) but adequate in vitamin K (0.14 mg
phylloquinone/kg) a threefold increase in prothrombin time and an
increase in
mortality rate (five out of twelve animals died from increased
bleeding tendency)
was observed. The inhibiting effect of high dietary vitamin E on
procoagulant
factors could be prevented by increasing dietary phylloquinone
supplementation.
Weight development, and feed utilization were insignificantly
different in chicks
fed different amounts and ratios of vitamins E and K1. Plasma and
liver
alpha-tocopherol levels correlated with dietary amounts of vitamin E.
Increased
phylloquinone levels in the diet did not significantly influence alpha-
tocopherol
concentrations in plasma and liver, but coagulopathy caused by high
vitamin E
intake could be reversed.

PMID: 9285253

: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1999 Jan;69(1):23-6.

Comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on experimental
arteriosclerosis.

Seyama Y, Hayashi M, Takegami H, Usami E.

Department of Clinical Chemistry, Hoshi College of Pharmacy, Tokyo,
Japan.

The comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on aortic calcium
(Ca) and
inorganic phosphorus (P) levels in the aorta and the elastin fraction
(fr.) were
investigated in male rats after experimental arteriosclerosis was
induced by
vitamin D2 with atherogenic diet. Both vitamin K2 (100 mg/kg b.w.) and
vitamin E
(40 mg/kg b.w.) inhibited the increase of Ca and P in the aorta and
the elastin
fr. from the arteriosclerotic rats. Vitamin K2 (50 mg/kg b.w.) also
suppressed
the deposition of Ca and P in the aorta, but there was no change due
to vitamin
K3 or geranylgeraniol (side chain of vitamin K2) administration. Both
vitamin K2
and vitamin E showed lipid radical scavenging activity in the in vitro
experiment. However, neither vitamin K3 nor geranylgeraniol exhibited
anti-arteriosclerotic or radical scavenging activity under the above
experimental
conditions. It is suggested that vitamin K2 and vitamin E promoted an
antiarteriosclerotic effect by radical scavenging activity. These
actions of
vitamin K2 are required in the structure of 2-methylnaphtoquinone and
its side
chain (geranylgeraniol).

PMID: 10052017
trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 20 Oct 2007 04:13 GMT
> > Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News
> > Today, September 25, 2007,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> http://ruohikolla.blogspot.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------
I'll submit that in the context of high dose vitamin E,  a
vitamin K supplement should drop this risk to the
average population rate or lower. There is evidence
high dose vitamin E lowers the amount of vitamin K
that is absorbed. And it should be recalled
much of the population is getting less than an optimal
level of vitamin K and many are even failing
to get the pathetically low RDA.

It seem to me the use of an isolated vitamin E supplement
without additional K by way of a supplement of K1 or K2
or the consumption of extra dark green leafy vegetables or certain
fermented foods i.e. natto.

Too little vitamin K would have a two pronged risk for
stroke. One, slower clotting would be permissive for
worse strokes and two the lack of vitamin K
would make vascular calcification more likely.

Personally I take a vitamin K supplement as well
as a vitamin E supplement.

See what the result for studies in
rats and chickens indicate in the following:

Nutr Metab (Lond). 2006 Jul 20;3:29.

Extrahepatic tissue concentrations of vitamin K are lower in rats fed
a high
vitamin E diet.

Tovar A, Ameho CK, Blumberg JB, Peterson JW, Smith D, Booth SL.

Vitamin K Laboratory,
Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at
Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111, USA.
alison.tovar@tufts.edu

BACKGROUND:
An adverse hematological interaction between vitamins E and K has
been reported, primarily in patients on anticoagulants. However,
little is known
regarding circulating levels or tissue concentrations of vitamin K in
response to
vitamin E supplementation. The purpose of this study was to examine
the effect of
different levels of dietary alpha-tocopherol on phylloquinone and
menaquinone-4
concentrations, while maintaining a constant intake of phylloquinone,
in rat
tissues.

METHODS: Male 4-wk old Fischer 344 rats (n = 33) were fed one of 3
diets
for 12 wk: control (n = 13) with 30 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol
acetate/kg diet;
vitamin E-supplemented (n = 10) with 100 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol
acetate/kg
diet; and vitamin E-restricted (n = 10) with <10 mg total tocopherols/
kg diet.
All 3 diets contained 470 +/- 80 microg phylloquinone/kg diet.

RESULTS:
Phylloquinone concentrations were lower (P < or = 0.05) in the vitamin
E-supplemented compared to the vitamin E-restricted group (mean +/- SD
spleen:
531 +/- 58 vs. 735 +/- 77; kidney: 20 +/- 17 vs. 94 +/- 31, brain: 53
+/- 19 vs.
136 +/- 97 pmol/g protein respectively); no statistically significant
differences
between groups were found in plasma, liver or testis. Similar results
were noted
with menaquinone-4 concentrations in response to vitamin E
supplementation.

CONCLUSION: There appears to be a tissue-specific interaction between
vitamins E
and K when vitamin E is supplemented in rat diets. Future research is
required to
elucidate the mechanism for this nutrient-nutrient interaction.

PMID: 16857056

1: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1997;67(4):242-7.

Interaction of vitamins E and K:
effect of high dietary vitamin E on
phylloquinone activity in chicks.

Frank J, Weiser H, Biesalski HK.

Department of Biological Chemistry and Nutrition,
Universit?t Hohenheim,
Stuttgart, Germany.

To determine the influence of vitamin E on phylloquinone activity, one
day-old
chicks were raised on a masch diet supplemented with different amounts
of vitamin
E for 31 days. In chicks fed a diet high in vitamin E (4000 mg
allrac-alpha-tocopheryl acetate/kg) but adequate in vitamin K (0.14 mg
phylloquinone/kg) a threefold increase in prothrombin time and an
increase in
mortality rate (five out of twelve animals died from increased
bleeding tendency)
was observed. The inhibiting effect of high dietary vitamin E on
procoagulant
factors could be prevented by increasing dietary phylloquinone
supplementation.
Weight development, and feed utilization were insignificantly
different in chicks
fed different amounts and ratios of vitamins E and K1. Plasma and
liver
alpha-tocopherol levels correlated with dietary amounts of vitamin E.
Increased
phylloquinone levels in the diet did not significantly influence alpha-
tocopherol
concentrations in plasma and liver, but coagulopathy caused by high
vitamin E
intake could be reversed.

PMID: 9285253

: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1999 Jan;69(1):23-6.

Comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on experimental
arteriosclerosis.

Seyama Y, Hayashi M, Takegami H, Usami E.

Department of Clinical Chemistry, Hoshi College of Pharmacy, Tokyo,
Japan.

The comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on aortic calcium
(Ca) and
inorganic phosphorus (P) levels in the aorta and the elastin fraction
(fr.) were
investigated in male rats after experimental arteriosclerosis was
induced by
vitamin D2 with atherogenic diet. Both vitamin K2 (100 mg/kg b.w.) and
vitamin E
(40 mg/kg b.w.) inhibited the increase of Ca and P in the aorta and
the elastin
fr. from the arteriosclerotic rats. Vitamin K2 (50 mg/kg b.w.) also
suppressed
the deposition of Ca and P in the aorta, but there was no change due
to vitamin
K3 or geranylgeraniol (side chain of vitamin K2) administration. Both
vitamin K2
and vitamin E showed lipid radical scavenging activity in the in vitro
experiment. However, neither vitamin K3 nor geranylgeraniol exhibited
anti-arteriosclerotic or radical scavenging activity under the above
experimental
conditions. It is suggested that vitamin K2 and vitamin E promoted an
antiarteriosclerotic effect by radical scavenging activity. These
actions of
vitamin K2 are required in the structure of 2-methylnaphtoquinone and
its side
chain (geranylgeraniol).

PMID: 10052017
trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 20 Oct 2007 04:14 GMT
> > Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News
> > Today, September 25, 2007,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> http://ruohikolla.blogspot.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------
I'll submit that in the context of high dose vitamin E,  a
vitamin K supplement should drop this risk to the
average population rate or lower. There is evidence
high dose vitamin E lowers the amount of vitamin K
that is absorbed. And it should be recalled
much of the population is getting less than an optimal
level of vitamin K and many are even failing
to get the pathetically low RDA.

It seem to me the use of an isolated vitamin E supplement
without additional K by way of a supplement of K1 or K2
or the consumption of extra dark green leafy vegetables or certain
fermented foods i.e. natto.

Too little vitamin K would have a two pronged risk for
stroke. One, slower clotting would be permissive for
worse strokes and two the lack of vitamin K
would make vascular calcification more likely.

Personally I take a vitamin K supplement as well
as a vitamin E supplement.

See what the result for studies in
rats and chickens indicate in the following:

Nutr Metab (Lond). 2006 Jul 20;3:29.

Extrahepatic tissue concentrations of vitamin K are lower in rats fed
a high
vitamin E diet.

Tovar A, Ameho CK, Blumberg JB, Peterson JW, Smith D, Booth SL.

Vitamin K Laboratory,
Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at
Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111, USA.
alison.tovar@tufts.edu

BACKGROUND:
An adverse hematological interaction between vitamins E and K has
been reported, primarily in patients on anticoagulants. However,
little is known
regarding circulating levels or tissue concentrations of vitamin K in
response to
vitamin E supplementation. The purpose of this study was to examine
the effect of
different levels of dietary alpha-tocopherol on phylloquinone and
menaquinone-4
concentrations, while maintaining a constant intake of phylloquinone,
in rat
tissues.

METHODS: Male 4-wk old Fischer 344 rats (n = 33) were fed one of 3
diets
for 12 wk: control (n = 13) with 30 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol
acetate/kg diet;
vitamin E-supplemented (n = 10) with 100 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol
acetate/kg
diet; and vitamin E-restricted (n = 10) with <10 mg total tocopherols/
kg diet.
All 3 diets contained 470 +/- 80 microg phylloquinone/kg diet.

RESULTS:
Phylloquinone concentrations were lower (P < or = 0.05) in the vitamin
E-supplemented compared to the vitamin E-restricted group (mean +/- SD
spleen:
531 +/- 58 vs. 735 +/- 77; kidney: 20 +/- 17 vs. 94 +/- 31, brain: 53
+/- 19 vs.
136 +/- 97 pmol/g protein respectively); no statistically significant
differences
between groups were found in plasma, liver or testis. Similar results
were noted
with menaquinone-4 concentrations in response to vitamin E
supplementation.

CONCLUSION: There appears to be a tissue-specific interaction between
vitamins E
and K when vitamin E is supplemented in rat diets. Future research is
required to
elucidate the mechanism for this nutrient-nutrient interaction.

PMID: 16857056

1: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1997;67(4):242-7.

Interaction of vitamins E and K:
effect of high dietary vitamin E on
phylloquinone activity in chicks.

Frank J, Weiser H, Biesalski HK.

Department of Biological Chemistry and Nutrition,
Universit?t Hohenheim,
Stuttgart, Germany.

To determine the influence of vitamin E on phylloquinone activity, one
day-old
chicks were raised on a masch diet supplemented with different amounts
of vitamin
E for 31 days. In chicks fed a diet high in vitamin E (4000 mg
allrac-alpha-tocopheryl acetate/kg) but adequate in vitamin K (0.14 mg
phylloquinone/kg) a threefold increase in prothrombin time and an
increase in
mortality rate (five out of twelve animals died from increased
bleeding tendency)
was observed. The inhibiting effect of high dietary vitamin E on
procoagulant
factors could be prevented by increasing dietary phylloquinone
supplementation.
Weight development, and feed utilization were insignificantly
different in chicks
fed different amounts and ratios of vitamins E and K1. Plasma and
liver
alpha-tocopherol levels correlated with dietary amounts of vitamin E.
Increased
phylloquinone levels in the diet did not significantly influence alpha-
tocopherol
concentrations in plasma and liver, but coagulopathy caused by high
vitamin E
intake could be reversed.

PMID: 9285253

: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1999 Jan;69(1):23-6.

Comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on experimental
arteriosclerosis.

Seyama Y, Hayashi M, Takegami H, Usami E.

Department of Clinical Chemistry, Hoshi College of Pharmacy, Tokyo,
Japan.

The comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on aortic calcium
(Ca) and
inorganic phosphorus (P) levels in the aorta and the elastin fraction
(fr.) were
investigated in male rats after experimental arteriosclerosis was
induced by
vitamin D2 with atherogenic diet. Both vitamin K2 (100 mg/kg b.w.) and
vitamin E
(40 mg/kg b.w.) inhibited the increase of Ca and P in the aorta and
the elastin
fr. from the arteriosclerotic rats. Vitamin K2 (50 mg/kg b.w.) also
suppressed
the deposition of Ca and P in the aorta, but there was no change due
to vitamin
K3 or geranylgeraniol (side chain of vitamin K2) administration. Both
vitamin K2
and vitamin E showed lipid radical scavenging activity in the in vitro
experiment. However, neither vitamin K3 nor geranylgeraniol exhibited
anti-arteriosclerotic or radical scavenging activity under the above
experimental
conditions. It is suggested that vitamin K2 and vitamin E promoted an
antiarteriosclerotic effect by radical scavenging activity. These
actions of
vitamin K2 are required in the structure of 2-methylnaphtoquinone and
its side
chain (geranylgeraniol).

PMID: 10052017
trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 21 Oct 2007 01:53 GMT
here is something similar:

1: Endocr Pract. 2006 Sep-Oct;12(5):576-82.

Vitamin E in humans: an explanation of clinical trial failure.

Robinson I, de Serna DG, Gutierrez A, Schade DS.

Department of Internal Medicine,
Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism,
University of New Mexico,
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131-0001, USA.

OBJECTIVE:
To describe the potential benefits and hazards of vitamin E
supplementation and present a rational basis for
understanding the conflictingresults among randomized clinical
trials,
epidemiologic investigations, and animal studies on the
use of vitamin E to prevent atherosclerosis.

METHODS:
We conducted a retrospective review of the pertinent
literature found in PubMed from 1981 through August 2005.
The published data are analyzed and summarized.

RESULTS:
The possible factors implicated for failure of vitamin E
therapy include the following:
(1) the inclusion of patients
without biochemical evidence of increased oxidative stress,
(2) the relatively short duration of treatment,
(3) the use of suboptimal dosages of vitamin E,
(4) the suppression of gamma-tocopherol by
alpha-tocopherol,
(5) the use of vitamin E supplementation
without the concurrent use of vitamin C,
(6) the lack of inclusion of biochemical
markers of oxidative stress and markers of vascular response,
(7) the inappropriate administration of vitamins relative to
meal ingestion, and
(8) the poor patient compliance and the lack of monitoring of
vitamin E levels.

CONCLUSION:
Large, randomized clinical trials have not yet substantiated a
beneficial effect of use of vitamin E to reduce
atherosclerotic risk in humans, despite demonstration
of antioxidant effects in vitro and in animals. Only in
subsets of patients at high risk for atherosclerosis
has a beneficial effect been suggested.
Before additional large, randomized clinical
trials of vitamin E are performed, the specific biologic
and surrogate marker effects of vitamin E in
each target population must be defined more
carefully. This approach will save
resources, minimize untoward side effects,
and identify the patients who will
benefit the most.

PMID: 17002935

And I'll point out a better vitamin E regimen includes
both the other tocopherols and vitamin K1 or K2.
Without additional vitamin K with vitamin E, stroke and
hardening of the arteries maybe be worsen.
Vernono O - 21 Oct 2007 02:57 GMT
> here is something similar:
>
> And I'll point out a better vitamin E regimen includes
> both the other tocopherols and vitamin K1 or K2.
> Without additional vitamin K with vitamin E, stroke and
> hardening of the arteries maybe be worsen.

Emphasis placed on the mixed tocopherols.  Alpha alone is nearly useless and
often negative even in the best animal tests.

K2 could be considered independent of E when speaking of arterial health.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 26 Oct 2007 07:01 GMT
> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> K2 could be considered independent of E when speaking of arterial health.

I agree with the last statement but not the reverse of it. I don't
think E should be considered (or researched) separate from K1 or K2.
Vernono O - 26 Oct 2007 16:47 GMT
>> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I agree with the last statement but not the reverse of it. I don't
> think E should be considered (or researched) separate from K1 or K2.

True
RF - 14 Nov 2007 03:34 GMT
>>> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>> I agree with the last statement but not the reverse of it. I don't
>> think E should be considered (or researched) separate from K1 or K2.

Hi Trig,

Thanks for your great posts.

I would like to know how much Vitamins E and K do you take?
If you were in your late 60s how much would you take?

TIA

RF
trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 16 Nov 2007 00:22 GMT
> Hi Trig,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> RF

Well, it is a judgement call. I've for decades taken
1200 IU per day of E. As the years have progressed
increased I've added more of other tocopherols such
that IU measure maybe less valid. Currently I get
400 mgs of gamma plus other tocopherols in addition
to some rrr-alpha T succinate I take. I also have
some old style mixed T I've been trying to use up
but it has been around so long, I may just start
using it only in the dog's food. In terms of milligrams
instead of IU, I now take about 1600 mgs of E related
vitamers.  In the last few years I have tried
lower doses in the 600 mg/IU range but prior to
that I was extremely consistent.

I've take a K supplement for about 7 years of 10 milligrams.
I'd love see more research of the various doses
of vitamin K. As it stands, it is pretty clear 100 mcg
intakes of vitamin K1 are not ideal and more to
some point is better for most people. If I were rich
I'd take likely take more vitamin K. Likely around 45 mgs
or so. I'd also hedge my bets and take several form
available on the market, K1, K2 in its two forms MK4 and MK7.
As it is I use the 10 milligram LEF capsule uses 9 milligrams
of k1 and mixture of the 2 K2 vitamers.

As to dose, the other issue I think about is as to
whether one still has their gall bladder as it removal can
reduce the absorption of fat soluble vitamins.
Further some have reduced uptake nutrients out of the
GI tract due to disease process such as celiac disease
or it damage.

And as people age, interactions with medications can also
be an issue.

Another thing, I'll throw in is concerning aging.
I do wish I had been more aggressive in my use
of methyl group contributors on a consistent basis
with a preference to betaine instead of choline and lecithin.
And in the same light a consistent higher dose of biotinshould be
good for epigenetic and chromosomal health.
These nutrients and the other B-vitamins folic, B-6 and B-2
all apparently should help maintain epigenetic control
of the gene expression. If one takes high dose folic acid, I
suspect high dose betaine should also be used for ample
levels of methyl groups. Higher levels of vitaimin D3 may
also be important with high dose folic acid.

I have experimented with high dose B-3 and for me
is it is no longer safe. I keep my dose of B-3 below 100 mgs
most at 50 milligrams.

One relative recent addition of regimen is either high
dose thiamine or  100 mg doses of benfotiamine for reduced
crosslinking
of the extracellular matrix.

1 gram or more of B-1 or a 100 mg of benfotiamine

50 mg B-2

50 mg B-6

50 mg B-3

10 mg biotin

6 mg folic acid

at least 3 grams of betaine and often several times more than this per
day

Two capsules of high gamma E

Two capsules of rrr alpha T succinate

10 mg K

5000 IU of D3 during the fall and winter or when I don't get sun

120 mg of CoQ-10

200 mg of alpha lipoic acid   considering an increase in this dose

about 6 grams of inositol on average

10 to 30 mgs of zinc

about 3000 IU of vitamin A per day from a larger dose capsule

1 gram of vitamin C

1 mg B-12 or so

1 or 2 grams of B-5 powder

200 mcg of organically bound Se

I've just reintroduced Chromium supplement

A teaspoon of both Rutin and Quercetin powders.
Quercetin doesn't mix well in water.

I've also been known to take carnitine and taurine but I haven't been
recently.

I also experimented with things such as rosemary extract
DIM, chrysin, DHEA, arginine, pregnenolone, pantethine, lecithin,
pine bark extract, grape seed extract and assorted herbal extracts.
I take occassional doses of the two mentioned prohormones
for bone density and mental clarity. I suppose smaller regular
dose would make more sense but this 2 or 3 doses a week seems to work
and doesn't bother the prostate as larger doses did.

If I take a magnesium supplement, it is not magnesium oxide
as it has poor availablity. Even a tiny dose dose of epsom's
salts such as a 1/8 a teaspoonful is better. I prefer magnesium
carbonate with ascorbic acid crystals. I avoid doses of 400 mgs
of elemental mg as that can have a laxative effect. I'll
add arginine had a laxative effects as well and I also suspect
carnitine does also

I try to get my carotenoids from the diet.

With supplements I try to be consistent and regular.

My exercise regimen needs to be reimplemented.
Red Fox - 28 Nov 2007 06:59 GMT
> > Hi Trig,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 134 lines]
>
> My exercise regimen needs to be reimplemented.

Thank you Trig for this effort. I was out of touch for a while and now you
have
given me some good info to chew on.

RF
Ron Peterson - 14 Nov 2007 03:58 GMT
> Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News
> Today, September 25, 2007,
> Link:http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/83363.php

> Generations of studies on vitamin E may be largely meaningless,
> scientists say, because new research has demonstrated that the levels
> of this micronutrient necessary to reduce oxidative stress are far
> higher than those that have been commonly used in clinical trials.

Variations in selenium intake may hide the effect of vitamin E. See my
previous posting on selenium.

--
  Ron
 
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