Medical Forum / General / Alternative / November 2007
'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials
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Roman Bystrianyk - 19 Oct 2007 17:23 GMT Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News Today, September 25, 2007, Link: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/83363.php
Generations of studies on vitamin E may be largely meaningless, scientists say, because new research has demonstrated that the levels of this micronutrient necessary to reduce oxidative stress are far higher than those that have been commonly used in clinical trials.
In a new study and commentary in Free Radical Biology and Medicine, researchers concluded that the levels of vitamin E necessary to reduce oxidative stress -- as measured by accepted biomarkers of lipid peroxidation -- are about 1,600 to 3,200 I.U. daily, or four to eight times higher than those used in almost all past clinical trials.
This could help explain the inconsistent results of many vitamin E trials for its value in preventing or treating cardiovascular disease, said Balz Frei, professor and director of the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University, and co-author of the new commentary along with Jeffrey Blumberg, at the Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University.
"The methodology used in almost all past clinical trials of vitamin E has been fatally flawed," said Frei, one of the world's leading experts on antioxidants and disease. "These trials supposedly addressed the hypothesis that reducing oxidative stress could reduce cardiovascular disease. But oxidative stress was never measured in these trials, and therefore we don't know whether it was actually reduced or not. The hypothesis was never really tested."
The level of vitamin E that clearly can be shown to reduce oxidative stress, new research is showing, is far higher than the level that could be obtained in any diet, and is also above the "tolerable upper intake level" outlined by the Institute of Medicine, which is 1,000 I.U. a day. OSU researchers are not yet recommending that people should routinely take such high levels, but they do say that controlled clinical trials studying this issue should be aware of the latest findings and seriously consider using much higher vitamin E supplement levels in their studies.
In lab, animal or human studies, there's evidence that vitamin E can reduce oxidative stress, inhibit formation of atherosclerotic lesions, slow aortic thickening, lower inflammation, and reduce platelet adhesion. Some human studies using lower levels of vitamin E supplements, such as 100 to 400 I.U. a day, have shown benefits in reducing cardiovascular disease risk, and others have not. An underlying assumption was that these levels were more than adequate to reduce oxidative stress, since they far exceeded the "recommended dietary allowance" or RDA for the vitamin, a level adequate to prevent deficiency disease.
"What's now clear is that the amount of vitamin E than can conclusively be shown to reduce oxidative stress is higher than we realized," Frei said. "And almost none of the studies done with vitamin E actually measured the beginning level or reduction of oxidative stress."
Proper studies of vitamin E, researchers say, must be done carefully and take into account the newest findings about this micronutrient. It's now known that natural forms of the vitamin are far more readily absorbed than synthetic types. It's also been discovered that supplements taken without a fat-containing meal are largely useless, because in the absence of dietary fat vitamin E is not absorbed.
Some clinical trials may wish to study the long term effect of vitamins on healthy individuals. But if a clinical trial seeks to learn the value of reducing oxidative stress, they should select patients in advance for those who have high, measurable oxidative stress -- often people who are older or have a range of heart disease risk factors, such as obesity, poor diet, hypertension or other problems. Cognizance should also be taken of people with health issues that may further increase their vitamin needs, such as smokers.
"A pill count simply isn't enough to determine the value of vitamin E," Frei said. "We need to select people for trials properly, make sure they are taking the right form of the vitamin, at the right levels and at the right time, and then verify the metabolic results with laboratory testing."
"Only when we do these studies right will we answer questions about the value of vitamin E in addressing cardiovascular disease," he said. "So far we've been flying blind."
A parallel, Frei said, would be presuming to test the value of a statin drug, which lowers cholesterol, without ever measuring cholesterol levels in the test subjects, neither at the beginning nor at the end of the study. Such trials would be ridiculed in the science community.
So far, that's the way vitamin E has been studied.
The use and intake of vitamins, experts say, has traditionally been thought of in terms of overt deficiency -- for example, not enough vitamin C causes scurvy. Much less research has been done on the levels that can help create optimum health. The issue is of special importance with modern populations that have very different diets, activity levels and increased lifespan, and are dying from much different causes -- predominantly heart disease and cancer -- than people of past generations.
Juhana Harju - 19 Oct 2007 17:41 GMT > Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News > Today, September 25, 2007, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > peroxidation -- are about 1,600 to 3,200 I.U. daily, or four to eight > times higher than those used in almost all past clinical trials. The problem is that even lower doses of vitamin E increase the risk of hemorrhagic strokes.
 Signature Juhana
http://ruohikolla.blogspot.com/
trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 20 Oct 2007 04:08 GMT > > Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News > > Today, September 25, 2007, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > http://ruohikolla.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------- I'll submit that in the context of high dose vitamin E, a vitamin K supplement should drop this risk to the average population rate or lower. There is evidence high dose vitamin E lowers the amount of vitamin K that is absorbed. And it should be recalled much of the population is getting less than an optimal level of vitamin K and many are even failing to get the pathetically low RDA.
It seem to me the use of an isolated vitamin E supplement without additional K by way of a supplement of K1 or K2 or the consumption of extra dark green leafy vegetables or certain fermented foods i.e. natto.
Too little vitamin K would have a two pronged risk for stroke. One, slower clotting would be permissive for worse strokes and two the lack of vitamin K would make vascular calcification more likely.
Personally I take a vitamin K supplement as well as a vitamin E supplement.
See what the result for studies in rats and chickens indicate in the following:
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2006 Jul 20;3:29.
Extrahepatic tissue concentrations of vitamin K are lower in rats fed a high vitamin E diet.
Tovar A, Ameho CK, Blumberg JB, Peterson JW, Smith D, Booth SL.
Vitamin K Laboratory, Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111, USA. alison.tovar@tufts.edu
BACKGROUND: An adverse hematological interaction between vitamins E and K has been reported, primarily in patients on anticoagulants. However, little is known regarding circulating levels or tissue concentrations of vitamin K in response to vitamin E supplementation. The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of different levels of dietary alpha-tocopherol on phylloquinone and menaquinone-4 concentrations, while maintaining a constant intake of phylloquinone, in rat tissues.
METHODS: Male 4-wk old Fischer 344 rats (n = 33) were fed one of 3 diets for 12 wk: control (n = 13) with 30 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol acetate/kg diet; vitamin E-supplemented (n = 10) with 100 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol acetate/kg diet; and vitamin E-restricted (n = 10) with <10 mg total tocopherols/ kg diet. All 3 diets contained 470 +/- 80 microg phylloquinone/kg diet.
RESULTS: Phylloquinone concentrations were lower (P < or = 0.05) in the vitamin E-supplemented compared to the vitamin E-restricted group (mean +/- SD spleen: 531 +/- 58 vs. 735 +/- 77; kidney: 20 +/- 17 vs. 94 +/- 31, brain: 53 +/- 19 vs. 136 +/- 97 pmol/g protein respectively); no statistically significant differences between groups were found in plasma, liver or testis. Similar results were noted with menaquinone-4 concentrations in response to vitamin E supplementation.
CONCLUSION: There appears to be a tissue-specific interaction between vitamins E and K when vitamin E is supplemented in rat diets. Future research is required to elucidate the mechanism for this nutrient-nutrient interaction.
PMID: 16857056
1: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1997;67(4):242-7.
Interaction of vitamins E and K: effect of high dietary vitamin E on phylloquinone activity in chicks.
Frank J, Weiser H, Biesalski HK.
Department of Biological Chemistry and Nutrition, Universit?t Hohenheim, Stuttgart, Germany.
To determine the influence of vitamin E on phylloquinone activity, one day-old chicks were raised on a masch diet supplemented with different amounts of vitamin E for 31 days. In chicks fed a diet high in vitamin E (4000 mg allrac-alpha-tocopheryl acetate/kg) but adequate in vitamin K (0.14 mg phylloquinone/kg) a threefold increase in prothrombin time and an increase in mortality rate (five out of twelve animals died from increased bleeding tendency) was observed. The inhibiting effect of high dietary vitamin E on procoagulant factors could be prevented by increasing dietary phylloquinone supplementation. Weight development, and feed utilization were insignificantly different in chicks fed different amounts and ratios of vitamins E and K1. Plasma and liver alpha-tocopherol levels correlated with dietary amounts of vitamin E. Increased phylloquinone levels in the diet did not significantly influence alpha- tocopherol concentrations in plasma and liver, but coagulopathy caused by high vitamin E intake could be reversed.
PMID: 9285253
: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1999 Jan;69(1):23-6. Comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on experimental arteriosclerosis.
Seyama Y, Hayashi M, Takegami H, Usami E.
Department of Clinical Chemistry, Hoshi College of Pharmacy, Tokyo, Japan.
The comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on aortic calcium (Ca) and inorganic phosphorus (P) levels in the aorta and the elastin fraction (fr.) were investigated in male rats after experimental arteriosclerosis was induced by vitamin D2 with atherogenic diet. Both vitamin K2 (100 mg/kg b.w.) and vitamin E (40 mg/kg b.w.) inhibited the increase of Ca and P in the aorta and the elastin fr. from the arteriosclerotic rats. Vitamin K2 (50 mg/kg b.w.) also suppressed the deposition of Ca and P in the aorta, but there was no change due to vitamin K3 or geranylgeraniol (side chain of vitamin K2) administration. Both vitamin K2 and vitamin E showed lipid radical scavenging activity in the in vitro experiment. However, neither vitamin K3 nor geranylgeraniol exhibited anti-arteriosclerotic or radical scavenging activity under the above experimental conditions. It is suggested that vitamin K2 and vitamin E promoted an antiarteriosclerotic effect by radical scavenging activity. These actions of vitamin K2 are required in the structure of 2-methylnaphtoquinone and its side chain (geranylgeraniol).
PMID: 10052017
trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 20 Oct 2007 04:13 GMT > > Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News > > Today, September 25, 2007, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > http://ruohikolla.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------- I'll submit that in the context of high dose vitamin E, a vitamin K supplement should drop this risk to the average population rate or lower. There is evidence high dose vitamin E lowers the amount of vitamin K that is absorbed. And it should be recalled much of the population is getting less than an optimal level of vitamin K and many are even failing to get the pathetically low RDA.
It seem to me the use of an isolated vitamin E supplement without additional K by way of a supplement of K1 or K2 or the consumption of extra dark green leafy vegetables or certain fermented foods i.e. natto.
Too little vitamin K would have a two pronged risk for stroke. One, slower clotting would be permissive for worse strokes and two the lack of vitamin K would make vascular calcification more likely.
Personally I take a vitamin K supplement as well as a vitamin E supplement.
See what the result for studies in rats and chickens indicate in the following:
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2006 Jul 20;3:29.
Extrahepatic tissue concentrations of vitamin K are lower in rats fed a high vitamin E diet.
Tovar A, Ameho CK, Blumberg JB, Peterson JW, Smith D, Booth SL.
Vitamin K Laboratory, Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111, USA. alison.tovar@tufts.edu
BACKGROUND: An adverse hematological interaction between vitamins E and K has been reported, primarily in patients on anticoagulants. However, little is known regarding circulating levels or tissue concentrations of vitamin K in response to vitamin E supplementation. The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of different levels of dietary alpha-tocopherol on phylloquinone and menaquinone-4 concentrations, while maintaining a constant intake of phylloquinone, in rat tissues.
METHODS: Male 4-wk old Fischer 344 rats (n = 33) were fed one of 3 diets for 12 wk: control (n = 13) with 30 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol acetate/kg diet; vitamin E-supplemented (n = 10) with 100 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol acetate/kg diet; and vitamin E-restricted (n = 10) with <10 mg total tocopherols/ kg diet. All 3 diets contained 470 +/- 80 microg phylloquinone/kg diet.
RESULTS: Phylloquinone concentrations were lower (P < or = 0.05) in the vitamin E-supplemented compared to the vitamin E-restricted group (mean +/- SD spleen: 531 +/- 58 vs. 735 +/- 77; kidney: 20 +/- 17 vs. 94 +/- 31, brain: 53 +/- 19 vs. 136 +/- 97 pmol/g protein respectively); no statistically significant differences between groups were found in plasma, liver or testis. Similar results were noted with menaquinone-4 concentrations in response to vitamin E supplementation.
CONCLUSION: There appears to be a tissue-specific interaction between vitamins E and K when vitamin E is supplemented in rat diets. Future research is required to elucidate the mechanism for this nutrient-nutrient interaction.
PMID: 16857056
1: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1997;67(4):242-7.
Interaction of vitamins E and K: effect of high dietary vitamin E on phylloquinone activity in chicks.
Frank J, Weiser H, Biesalski HK.
Department of Biological Chemistry and Nutrition, Universit?t Hohenheim, Stuttgart, Germany.
To determine the influence of vitamin E on phylloquinone activity, one day-old chicks were raised on a masch diet supplemented with different amounts of vitamin E for 31 days. In chicks fed a diet high in vitamin E (4000 mg allrac-alpha-tocopheryl acetate/kg) but adequate in vitamin K (0.14 mg phylloquinone/kg) a threefold increase in prothrombin time and an increase in mortality rate (five out of twelve animals died from increased bleeding tendency) was observed. The inhibiting effect of high dietary vitamin E on procoagulant factors could be prevented by increasing dietary phylloquinone supplementation. Weight development, and feed utilization were insignificantly different in chicks fed different amounts and ratios of vitamins E and K1. Plasma and liver alpha-tocopherol levels correlated with dietary amounts of vitamin E. Increased phylloquinone levels in the diet did not significantly influence alpha- tocopherol concentrations in plasma and liver, but coagulopathy caused by high vitamin E intake could be reversed.
PMID: 9285253
: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1999 Jan;69(1):23-6. Comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on experimental arteriosclerosis.
Seyama Y, Hayashi M, Takegami H, Usami E.
Department of Clinical Chemistry, Hoshi College of Pharmacy, Tokyo, Japan.
The comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on aortic calcium (Ca) and inorganic phosphorus (P) levels in the aorta and the elastin fraction (fr.) were investigated in male rats after experimental arteriosclerosis was induced by vitamin D2 with atherogenic diet. Both vitamin K2 (100 mg/kg b.w.) and vitamin E (40 mg/kg b.w.) inhibited the increase of Ca and P in the aorta and the elastin fr. from the arteriosclerotic rats. Vitamin K2 (50 mg/kg b.w.) also suppressed the deposition of Ca and P in the aorta, but there was no change due to vitamin K3 or geranylgeraniol (side chain of vitamin K2) administration. Both vitamin K2 and vitamin E showed lipid radical scavenging activity in the in vitro experiment. However, neither vitamin K3 nor geranylgeraniol exhibited anti-arteriosclerotic or radical scavenging activity under the above experimental conditions. It is suggested that vitamin K2 and vitamin E promoted an antiarteriosclerotic effect by radical scavenging activity. These actions of vitamin K2 are required in the structure of 2-methylnaphtoquinone and its side chain (geranylgeraniol).
PMID: 10052017
trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 20 Oct 2007 04:14 GMT > > Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News > > Today, September 25, 2007, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > http://ruohikolla.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------- I'll submit that in the context of high dose vitamin E, a vitamin K supplement should drop this risk to the average population rate or lower. There is evidence high dose vitamin E lowers the amount of vitamin K that is absorbed. And it should be recalled much of the population is getting less than an optimal level of vitamin K and many are even failing to get the pathetically low RDA.
It seem to me the use of an isolated vitamin E supplement without additional K by way of a supplement of K1 or K2 or the consumption of extra dark green leafy vegetables or certain fermented foods i.e. natto.
Too little vitamin K would have a two pronged risk for stroke. One, slower clotting would be permissive for worse strokes and two the lack of vitamin K would make vascular calcification more likely.
Personally I take a vitamin K supplement as well as a vitamin E supplement.
See what the result for studies in rats and chickens indicate in the following:
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2006 Jul 20;3:29.
Extrahepatic tissue concentrations of vitamin K are lower in rats fed a high vitamin E diet.
Tovar A, Ameho CK, Blumberg JB, Peterson JW, Smith D, Booth SL.
Vitamin K Laboratory, Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111, USA. alison.tovar@tufts.edu
BACKGROUND: An adverse hematological interaction between vitamins E and K has been reported, primarily in patients on anticoagulants. However, little is known regarding circulating levels or tissue concentrations of vitamin K in response to vitamin E supplementation. The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of different levels of dietary alpha-tocopherol on phylloquinone and menaquinone-4 concentrations, while maintaining a constant intake of phylloquinone, in rat tissues.
METHODS: Male 4-wk old Fischer 344 rats (n = 33) were fed one of 3 diets for 12 wk: control (n = 13) with 30 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol acetate/kg diet; vitamin E-supplemented (n = 10) with 100 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol acetate/kg diet; and vitamin E-restricted (n = 10) with <10 mg total tocopherols/ kg diet. All 3 diets contained 470 +/- 80 microg phylloquinone/kg diet.
RESULTS: Phylloquinone concentrations were lower (P < or = 0.05) in the vitamin E-supplemented compared to the vitamin E-restricted group (mean +/- SD spleen: 531 +/- 58 vs. 735 +/- 77; kidney: 20 +/- 17 vs. 94 +/- 31, brain: 53 +/- 19 vs. 136 +/- 97 pmol/g protein respectively); no statistically significant differences between groups were found in plasma, liver or testis. Similar results were noted with menaquinone-4 concentrations in response to vitamin E supplementation.
CONCLUSION: There appears to be a tissue-specific interaction between vitamins E and K when vitamin E is supplemented in rat diets. Future research is required to elucidate the mechanism for this nutrient-nutrient interaction.
PMID: 16857056
1: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1997;67(4):242-7.
Interaction of vitamins E and K: effect of high dietary vitamin E on phylloquinone activity in chicks.
Frank J, Weiser H, Biesalski HK.
Department of Biological Chemistry and Nutrition, Universit?t Hohenheim, Stuttgart, Germany.
To determine the influence of vitamin E on phylloquinone activity, one day-old chicks were raised on a masch diet supplemented with different amounts of vitamin E for 31 days. In chicks fed a diet high in vitamin E (4000 mg allrac-alpha-tocopheryl acetate/kg) but adequate in vitamin K (0.14 mg phylloquinone/kg) a threefold increase in prothrombin time and an increase in mortality rate (five out of twelve animals died from increased bleeding tendency) was observed. The inhibiting effect of high dietary vitamin E on procoagulant factors could be prevented by increasing dietary phylloquinone supplementation. Weight development, and feed utilization were insignificantly different in chicks fed different amounts and ratios of vitamins E and K1. Plasma and liver alpha-tocopherol levels correlated with dietary amounts of vitamin E. Increased phylloquinone levels in the diet did not significantly influence alpha- tocopherol concentrations in plasma and liver, but coagulopathy caused by high vitamin E intake could be reversed.
PMID: 9285253
: Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1999 Jan;69(1):23-6. Comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on experimental arteriosclerosis.
Seyama Y, Hayashi M, Takegami H, Usami E.
Department of Clinical Chemistry, Hoshi College of Pharmacy, Tokyo, Japan.
The comparative effects of vitamin K2 and vitamin E on aortic calcium (Ca) and inorganic phosphorus (P) levels in the aorta and the elastin fraction (fr.) were investigated in male rats after experimental arteriosclerosis was induced by vitamin D2 with atherogenic diet. Both vitamin K2 (100 mg/kg b.w.) and vitamin E (40 mg/kg b.w.) inhibited the increase of Ca and P in the aorta and the elastin fr. from the arteriosclerotic rats. Vitamin K2 (50 mg/kg b.w.) also suppressed the deposition of Ca and P in the aorta, but there was no change due to vitamin K3 or geranylgeraniol (side chain of vitamin K2) administration. Both vitamin K2 and vitamin E showed lipid radical scavenging activity in the in vitro experiment. However, neither vitamin K3 nor geranylgeraniol exhibited anti-arteriosclerotic or radical scavenging activity under the above experimental conditions. It is suggested that vitamin K2 and vitamin E promoted an antiarteriosclerotic effect by radical scavenging activity. These actions of vitamin K2 are required in the structure of 2-methylnaphtoquinone and its side chain (geranylgeraniol).
PMID: 10052017
trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 21 Oct 2007 01:53 GMT here is something similar:
1: Endocr Pract. 2006 Sep-Oct;12(5):576-82.
Vitamin E in humans: an explanation of clinical trial failure.
Robinson I, de Serna DG, Gutierrez A, Schade DS.
Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131-0001, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To describe the potential benefits and hazards of vitamin E supplementation and present a rational basis for understanding the conflictingresults among randomized clinical trials, epidemiologic investigations, and animal studies on the use of vitamin E to prevent atherosclerosis.
METHODS: We conducted a retrospective review of the pertinent literature found in PubMed from 1981 through August 2005. The published data are analyzed and summarized.
RESULTS: The possible factors implicated for failure of vitamin E therapy include the following: (1) the inclusion of patients without biochemical evidence of increased oxidative stress, (2) the relatively short duration of treatment, (3) the use of suboptimal dosages of vitamin E, (4) the suppression of gamma-tocopherol by alpha-tocopherol, (5) the use of vitamin E supplementation without the concurrent use of vitamin C, (6) the lack of inclusion of biochemical markers of oxidative stress and markers of vascular response, (7) the inappropriate administration of vitamins relative to meal ingestion, and (8) the poor patient compliance and the lack of monitoring of vitamin E levels.
CONCLUSION: Large, randomized clinical trials have not yet substantiated a beneficial effect of use of vitamin E to reduce atherosclerotic risk in humans, despite demonstration of antioxidant effects in vitro and in animals. Only in subsets of patients at high risk for atherosclerosis has a beneficial effect been suggested. Before additional large, randomized clinical trials of vitamin E are performed, the specific biologic and surrogate marker effects of vitamin E in each target population must be defined more carefully. This approach will save resources, minimize untoward side effects, and identify the patients who will benefit the most.
PMID: 17002935
And I'll point out a better vitamin E regimen includes both the other tocopherols and vitamin K1 or K2. Without additional vitamin K with vitamin E, stroke and hardening of the arteries maybe be worsen.
Vernono O - 21 Oct 2007 02:57 GMT > here is something similar: > > And I'll point out a better vitamin E regimen includes > both the other tocopherols and vitamin K1 or K2. > Without additional vitamin K with vitamin E, stroke and > hardening of the arteries maybe be worsen. Emphasis placed on the mixed tocopherols. Alpha alone is nearly useless and often negative even in the best animal tests.
K2 could be considered independent of E when speaking of arterial health.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 26 Oct 2007 07:01 GMT > <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > K2 could be considered independent of E when speaking of arterial health. I agree with the last statement but not the reverse of it. I don't think E should be considered (or researched) separate from K1 or K2.
Vernono O - 26 Oct 2007 16:47 GMT >> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I agree with the last statement but not the reverse of it. I don't > think E should be considered (or researched) separate from K1 or K2. True
RF - 14 Nov 2007 03:34 GMT >>> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> I agree with the last statement but not the reverse of it. I don't >> think E should be considered (or researched) separate from K1 or K2. Hi Trig,
Thanks for your great posts.
I would like to know how much Vitamins E and K do you take? If you were in your late 60s how much would you take?
TIA
RF
trigonometry1972@gmail.com - 16 Nov 2007 00:22 GMT > Hi Trig, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > RF Well, it is a judgement call. I've for decades taken 1200 IU per day of E. As the years have progressed increased I've added more of other tocopherols such that IU measure maybe less valid. Currently I get 400 mgs of gamma plus other tocopherols in addition to some rrr-alpha T succinate I take. I also have some old style mixed T I've been trying to use up but it has been around so long, I may just start using it only in the dog's food. In terms of milligrams instead of IU, I now take about 1600 mgs of E related vitamers. In the last few years I have tried lower doses in the 600 mg/IU range but prior to that I was extremely consistent.
I've take a K supplement for about 7 years of 10 milligrams. I'd love see more research of the various doses of vitamin K. As it stands, it is pretty clear 100 mcg intakes of vitamin K1 are not ideal and more to some point is better for most people. If I were rich I'd take likely take more vitamin K. Likely around 45 mgs or so. I'd also hedge my bets and take several form available on the market, K1, K2 in its two forms MK4 and MK7. As it is I use the 10 milligram LEF capsule uses 9 milligrams of k1 and mixture of the 2 K2 vitamers.
As to dose, the other issue I think about is as to whether one still has their gall bladder as it removal can reduce the absorption of fat soluble vitamins. Further some have reduced uptake nutrients out of the GI tract due to disease process such as celiac disease or it damage.
And as people age, interactions with medications can also be an issue.
Another thing, I'll throw in is concerning aging. I do wish I had been more aggressive in my use of methyl group contributors on a consistent basis with a preference to betaine instead of choline and lecithin. And in the same light a consistent higher dose of biotinshould be good for epigenetic and chromosomal health. These nutrients and the other B-vitamins folic, B-6 and B-2 all apparently should help maintain epigenetic control of the gene expression. If one takes high dose folic acid, I suspect high dose betaine should also be used for ample levels of methyl groups. Higher levels of vitaimin D3 may also be important with high dose folic acid.
I have experimented with high dose B-3 and for me is it is no longer safe. I keep my dose of B-3 below 100 mgs most at 50 milligrams.
One relative recent addition of regimen is either high dose thiamine or 100 mg doses of benfotiamine for reduced crosslinking of the extracellular matrix.
1 gram or more of B-1 or a 100 mg of benfotiamine
50 mg B-2
50 mg B-6
50 mg B-3
10 mg biotin
6 mg folic acid
at least 3 grams of betaine and often several times more than this per day
Two capsules of high gamma E
Two capsules of rrr alpha T succinate
10 mg K
5000 IU of D3 during the fall and winter or when I don't get sun
120 mg of CoQ-10
200 mg of alpha lipoic acid considering an increase in this dose
about 6 grams of inositol on average
10 to 30 mgs of zinc
about 3000 IU of vitamin A per day from a larger dose capsule
1 gram of vitamin C
1 mg B-12 or so
1 or 2 grams of B-5 powder
200 mcg of organically bound Se
I've just reintroduced Chromium supplement
A teaspoon of both Rutin and Quercetin powders. Quercetin doesn't mix well in water.
I've also been known to take carnitine and taurine but I haven't been recently.
I also experimented with things such as rosemary extract DIM, chrysin, DHEA, arginine, pregnenolone, pantethine, lecithin, pine bark extract, grape seed extract and assorted herbal extracts. I take occassional doses of the two mentioned prohormones for bone density and mental clarity. I suppose smaller regular dose would make more sense but this 2 or 3 doses a week seems to work and doesn't bother the prostate as larger doses did.
If I take a magnesium supplement, it is not magnesium oxide as it has poor availablity. Even a tiny dose dose of epsom's salts such as a 1/8 a teaspoonful is better. I prefer magnesium carbonate with ascorbic acid crystals. I avoid doses of 400 mgs of elemental mg as that can have a laxative effect. I'll add arginine had a laxative effects as well and I also suspect carnitine does also
I try to get my carotenoids from the diet.
With supplements I try to be consistent and regular.
My exercise regimen needs to be reimplemented.
Red Fox - 28 Nov 2007 06:59 GMT > > Hi Trig, > > [quoted text clipped - 134 lines] > > My exercise regimen needs to be reimplemented. Thank you Trig for this effort. I was out of touch for a while and now you have given me some good info to chew on.
RF
Ron Peterson - 14 Nov 2007 03:58 GMT > Balz Frei, "'Fatal Flaw' Found In Vitamin E Trials", Medical News > Today, September 25, 2007, > Link:http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/83363.php
> Generations of studies on vitamin E may be largely meaningless, > scientists say, because new research has demonstrated that the levels > of this micronutrient necessary to reduce oxidative stress are far > higher than those that have been commonly used in clinical trials. Variations in selenium intake may hide the effect of vitamin E. See my previous posting on selenium.
-- Ron
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