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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / September 2007

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Should terminally ill patients have the right to take potentially unsafe drugs?

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Dave - 08 Sep 2007 16:15 GMT
The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs
to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on
this subject from the British Medical Journal fascinating. What do you
think? Should terminally ill patients have the right to take drugs
after the initial safety trials but before final approval?

Professor Emil Freireich at the University of Texas believes that
patients should be allowed to judge the risks for themselves. Around
half a million people will die from cancer-related causes in the
Unites States alone this year, and many are given a hopeless
prognosis. Most cancer patients are unable to participate in clinical
trials of new therapies.

So why not offer these drugs to these patients on a compassionate
basis?

Freireich points to several objections that include safety and
interference with the development of the drug or the clinical trial
process. But he rejects these. He argues that patients with advanced
cancer and limited life expectancy should have the same privilege as
all individuals in a free society - that is, to decide their own
benefit-to-risk ratio.

It is tragic, he says, that regulatory bodies have created a
circumstance where people have to live in an aura of hopelessness even
though they have the will, the resources, and the ability to expose
themselves to the risk of participating in investigational studies and
to enjoy the potential for benefit. He ends his argument by saying
that the solution is legislation or judicial action to permit expanded
access to experimental treatments for patients with limited life
expectancy.

On the other side of this ethical divide, Dr. Dean Gesme, a medical
oncologist in Minneapolis, believes that use of drugs after phase I
testing and outside clinical trials will damage both individuals and
science. He points out that more than 90% of drugs entering phase I
trials are found unacceptable, and, of those approved, most provide
only incremental improvements as opposed to lifesaving treatments.

Gesme believes the allure of promising new drugs continues to engender
false hope, which may delay approval and erode the clinical trials
system by substituting clinical enthusiasm and wishful thinking for
evidence-based medicine. And who will bear the costs of open access to
these partially-tested drugs, he asks? Will government and HMO's be
willing to pay for unproved drugs outside of formal clinical trials?
Society is having a hard enough time getting them to pay for
marginally beneficial therapies.

While we all dream of the miracle cure for each terminally ill
patient, appropriate end of life care remains one of the most
challenging questions there is for society.

Dave

Full text article above extraced from http://shamvswham.blogspot.com/
David Wright - 09 Sep 2007 06:25 GMT
>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs
>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>So why not offer these drugs to these patients on a compassionate
>basis?

For a contrary opinion from a cancer surgeon, see:

ttp://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/02/drug_safety_versus_a_constitutional_righ.php

 and

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/08/cancer_in_the_wall_street_journal.php#more

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about
     Barbra Streisand."               -- Bill Maher
Dave - 09 Sep 2007 06:30 GMT
> In article <1189264532.696392.79...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>      "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about
>       Barbra Streisand."               -- Bill Maher

Thanks David.

I had both sides of the matter presented in my post, so there is no
"contrary" opinion. I presented both sides of the controversy,

Dave
David Wright - 10 Sep 2007 04:49 GMT
>> In article <1189264532.696392.79...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>I had both sides of the matter presented in my post, so there is no
>"contrary" opinion. I presented both sides of the controversy,

Golly whillakers, pardon me all to heck for not considering one
article to be the last word on the subject.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about
     Barbra Streisand."               -- Bill Maher
Dave - 11 Sep 2007 00:06 GMT
> In article <1189315807.932911.271...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>      "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about
>       Barbra Streisand."               -- Bill Maher

I think you know what I meant! Since both sides were presented, your
(very interesting) other opinion needed to come down on one side or
the other of this ethical divide. By saying "contrary" you make it
seem as if my article was on one side of that debate. Thanks,

Dave
mzlindyone@earthlink.net - 10 Sep 2007 20:03 GMT
>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs
>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Professor Emil Freireich at the University of Texas believes that
>patients should be allowed to judge the risks for themselves.

I agree, but they should ALSO be informed that therapies other than
surgery and chemotherapy are available in the first place, and
insurance should pay for whatever they choose, even if it means
travelling to Lourdes.  You'd think insurance would be happy to pay
for something that's certain to cost less.

(As if that's ever going to happen.)

--
First, eliminate the poison.
David Wright - 11 Sep 2007 03:31 GMT
>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs
>>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>(As if that's ever going to happen.)

Why pay for something useless?  For example, there are NO (as in zero)
verified miracle cures from Lourdes.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about
     Barbra Streisand."               -- Bill Maher
t - 11 Sep 2007 04:14 GMT
>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs
>>>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>     "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about
>      Barbra Streisand."               -- Bill Maher

The insurance companies pay for a lot of "cancer treatments", and then the
person dies of cancer.
Vernono O - 11 Sep 2007 16:54 GMT
>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs
>>>>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> The insurance companies pay for a lot of "cancer treatments", and then the
> person dies of cancer.

Yet refuse possible cures or temporary remedies.
David Wright - 13 Sep 2007 05:12 GMT
>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs
>>>>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>The insurance companies pay for a lot of "cancer treatments", and then the
>person dies of cancer.

But they won't pay for treatments that have never cured anyone.
That's the distinction.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about
     Barbra Streisand."               -- Bill Maher
t - 13 Sep 2007 12:49 GMT
>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs
>>>>>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the entertaining BS.
David Wright - 14 Sep 2007 04:56 GMT
>>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs
>>>>>>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>
>Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the entertaining BS.

I should have said that they'll pay for palliative treatment -- but
they won't, in general, pay for things like homeopathy that has never
been shown to have any effect beyond placebo.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about
     Barbra Streisand."               -- Bill Maher
Vernono O - 14 Sep 2007 17:38 GMT
>>>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental
>>>>>>>drugs
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> they won't, in general, pay for things like homeopathy that has never
> been shown to have any effect beyond placebo.

So, you are one of those who say vaccinations don't work.  They are placebo.
O.K.  Lot's of people say that.
David Wright - 16 Sep 2007 16:47 GMT
>>>>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental
>>>>>>>>drugs
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>So, you are one of those who say vaccinations don't work.  They are placebo.
>O.K.  Lot's of people say that.

No, Vernon -- you're one of the few who tries to make the claim that
vaccination is an example of homeopathy.  It's not.  The Law of
Similars doesn't apply with vaccination.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about
     Barbra Streisand."               -- Bill Maher
Vernono O - 16 Sep 2007 17:53 GMT
>>>>>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental
>>>>>>>>>drugs
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> vaccination is an example of homeopathy.  It's not.  The Law of
> Similars doesn't apply with vaccination.

Play your little game all you want.
Try to get rid of the hate diatribe.
FYI vaccination and the like have many different forms.
Vernono O - 14 Sep 2007 18:54 GMT
>>>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental
>>>>>>>drugs
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> they won't, in general, pay for things like homeopathy that has never
> been shown to have any effect beyond placebo.

Forget your obsession with homeo stuff.  Get with the subject.  How about
real anticipated cures or remission agents proposed by some fairly honest
clinics and research centers?  If the person is terminally ill (a tough
call) why not spend the SAME "government" money on a person rather than a
rat?  We, yes WE, spend multi BILLIONS into an endless hole on so called
cancer "research".  IF they tried every suggested homeopathic method and ALL
it did was give the patient placebo hope, it would be insignificant peanuts.
It would be no worse than the "non cure" happy pills, cocaine, morphine they
administer.

Insurance companies have a documented list of treatments.  That's life.
Reality says that it's "cheaper" to let the person die.

If it's your wife, child, mother laying there, be DAMNED sure you give them
no hope whatever.  As a matter of fact if they complain of pain slap them
and say, "Oh, shut up.  You want pain? I'll show you pain."

The question was, "Should the PATIENT have the RIGHT?"
Your answer:  "Awe go to hell, who cares, hurry up and die."
David Wright - 30 Sep 2007 00:33 GMT
>>>>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental
>>>>>>>>drugs
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>call) why not spend the SAME "government" money on a person rather than a
>rat?

Well, you really do need to try it out on the rat first, just to see
whether it does anything at all, and whether the cure is worse than
the disease.  After all, most drugs don't work out.

As for the rest of it, there are plenty of pragmatic issues that
you're glossing over.  For example, HOW MUCH should we be willing to
sink into this.  New drugs are often fantastically expensive to make.
And the maker usually doesn't have that much on hand.  How much money
shall we spend on making more?  Who's going to do it?  

It's not practical to say that any patient should get any treatment
they want.  It's infeasibly expensive, which means we need to draw the
line somewhere, but as soon as we do that, we're right back in the
business of deciding what we will or won't pay for.

>We, yes WE, spend multi BILLIONS into an endless hole on so called
>cancer "research".  IF they tried every suggested homeopathic method
>and ALL  it did was give the patient placebo hope, it would be
>insignificant peanuts.  

Financially, yes, but it wouldn't cure anyone.  Why spend a nickel on
that?

>It would be no worse than the "non cure" happy pills, cocaine,
>morphine they administer.

But they'll still need the morphine.  The pain isn't going to vanish
because you're popping placebos.

>Insurance companies have a documented list of treatments.  That's life.
>Reality says that it's "cheaper" to let the person die.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>The question was, "Should the PATIENT have the RIGHT?"
>Your answer:  "Awe go to hell, who cares, hurry up and die."

My answer was that the patient doesn't have the right to demand that
someone else pay for whatever treatment they want.

And they don't.

Sorry about your reading comprehension problems.  Really, you should
see someone about those...

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about
     Barbra Streisand."               -- Bill Maher
Vernono O - 30 Sep 2007 03:44 GMT
>>"David Wright" <wright@l1000.prodigy.net> wrote in message

Summation of David Wright answer.
"I don't care if there is a possibility of cure.  I HATE everyone and
"physically" love (have a sexual reaction) to DOCTORS."
David Wright - 30 Sep 2007 05:30 GMT
>>>"David Wright" <wright@l1000.prodigy.net> wrote in message
>
>Summation of David Wright answer.
>"I don't care if there is a possibility of cure.  I HATE everyone and
>"physically" love (have a sexual reaction) to DOCTORS."

Ah, Vernon's now reduced to silly insults -- he does get that way when
someone points out that he can never back up his numerous claims.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about
     Barbra Streisand."               -- Bill Maher
t - 30 Sep 2007 12:55 GMT
Troll snipped.
Vernono O - 30 Sep 2007 17:12 GMT
> Troll snipped.

He is good proof of those who slow down medical research or cures.
Mark Probert - 11 Sep 2007 13:02 GMT
>> The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs
>> to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> travelling to Lourdes.  You'd think insurance would be happy to pay
> for something that's certain to cost less.

Only if there is some reasonable chance of success.

> (As if that's ever going to happen.)
>
> --
> First, eliminate the poison.

Agreed. Eliminate Laetrile and the scum who promote it.
 
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