Medical Forum / General / Alternative / September 2007
Should terminally ill patients have the right to take potentially unsafe drugs?
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Dave - 08 Sep 2007 16:15 GMT The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on this subject from the British Medical Journal fascinating. What do you think? Should terminally ill patients have the right to take drugs after the initial safety trials but before final approval?
Professor Emil Freireich at the University of Texas believes that patients should be allowed to judge the risks for themselves. Around half a million people will die from cancer-related causes in the Unites States alone this year, and many are given a hopeless prognosis. Most cancer patients are unable to participate in clinical trials of new therapies.
So why not offer these drugs to these patients on a compassionate basis?
Freireich points to several objections that include safety and interference with the development of the drug or the clinical trial process. But he rejects these. He argues that patients with advanced cancer and limited life expectancy should have the same privilege as all individuals in a free society - that is, to decide their own benefit-to-risk ratio.
It is tragic, he says, that regulatory bodies have created a circumstance where people have to live in an aura of hopelessness even though they have the will, the resources, and the ability to expose themselves to the risk of participating in investigational studies and to enjoy the potential for benefit. He ends his argument by saying that the solution is legislation or judicial action to permit expanded access to experimental treatments for patients with limited life expectancy.
On the other side of this ethical divide, Dr. Dean Gesme, a medical oncologist in Minneapolis, believes that use of drugs after phase I testing and outside clinical trials will damage both individuals and science. He points out that more than 90% of drugs entering phase I trials are found unacceptable, and, of those approved, most provide only incremental improvements as opposed to lifesaving treatments.
Gesme believes the allure of promising new drugs continues to engender false hope, which may delay approval and erode the clinical trials system by substituting clinical enthusiasm and wishful thinking for evidence-based medicine. And who will bear the costs of open access to these partially-tested drugs, he asks? Will government and HMO's be willing to pay for unproved drugs outside of formal clinical trials? Society is having a hard enough time getting them to pay for marginally beneficial therapies.
While we all dream of the miracle cure for each terminally ill patient, appropriate end of life care remains one of the most challenging questions there is for society.
Dave
Full text article above extraced from http://shamvswham.blogspot.com/
David Wright - 09 Sep 2007 06:25 GMT >The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs >to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >So why not offer these drugs to these patients on a compassionate >basis? For a contrary opinion from a cancer surgeon, see:
ttp://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/02/drug_safety_versus_a_constitutional_righ.php
and
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/08/cancer_in_the_wall_street_journal.php#more
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about Barbra Streisand." -- Bill Maher
Dave - 09 Sep 2007 06:30 GMT > In article <1189264532.696392.79...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about > Barbra Streisand." -- Bill Maher Thanks David.
I had both sides of the matter presented in my post, so there is no "contrary" opinion. I presented both sides of the controversy,
Dave
David Wright - 10 Sep 2007 04:49 GMT >> In article <1189264532.696392.79...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >I had both sides of the matter presented in my post, so there is no >"contrary" opinion. I presented both sides of the controversy, Golly whillakers, pardon me all to heck for not considering one article to be the last word on the subject.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about Barbra Streisand." -- Bill Maher
Dave - 11 Sep 2007 00:06 GMT > In article <1189315807.932911.271...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about > Barbra Streisand." -- Bill Maher I think you know what I meant! Since both sides were presented, your (very interesting) other opinion needed to come down on one side or the other of this ethical divide. By saying "contrary" you make it seem as if my article was on one side of that debate. Thanks,
Dave
mzlindyone@earthlink.net - 10 Sep 2007 20:03 GMT >The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs >to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Professor Emil Freireich at the University of Texas believes that >patients should be allowed to judge the risks for themselves. I agree, but they should ALSO be informed that therapies other than surgery and chemotherapy are available in the first place, and insurance should pay for whatever they choose, even if it means travelling to Lourdes. You'd think insurance would be happy to pay for something that's certain to cost less.
(As if that's ever going to happen.)
-- First, eliminate the poison.
David Wright - 11 Sep 2007 03:31 GMT >>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs >>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >(As if that's ever going to happen.) Why pay for something useless? For example, there are NO (as in zero) verified miracle cures from Lourdes.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about Barbra Streisand." -- Bill Maher
t - 11 Sep 2007 04:14 GMT >>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs >>>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about > Barbra Streisand." -- Bill Maher The insurance companies pay for a lot of "cancer treatments", and then the person dies of cancer.
Vernono O - 11 Sep 2007 16:54 GMT >>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs >>>>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > The insurance companies pay for a lot of "cancer treatments", and then the > person dies of cancer. Yet refuse possible cures or temporary remedies.
David Wright - 13 Sep 2007 05:12 GMT >>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs >>>>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >The insurance companies pay for a lot of "cancer treatments", and then the >person dies of cancer. But they won't pay for treatments that have never cured anyone. That's the distinction.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about Barbra Streisand." -- Bill Maher
t - 13 Sep 2007 12:49 GMT >>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs >>>>>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the entertaining BS.
David Wright - 14 Sep 2007 04:56 GMT >>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs >>>>>>to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the entertaining BS. I should have said that they'll pay for palliative treatment -- but they won't, in general, pay for things like homeopathy that has never been shown to have any effect beyond placebo.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about Barbra Streisand." -- Bill Maher
Vernono O - 14 Sep 2007 17:38 GMT >>>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental >>>>>>>drugs [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > they won't, in general, pay for things like homeopathy that has never > been shown to have any effect beyond placebo. So, you are one of those who say vaccinations don't work. They are placebo. O.K. Lot's of people say that.
David Wright - 16 Sep 2007 16:47 GMT >>>>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental >>>>>>>>drugs [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >So, you are one of those who say vaccinations don't work. They are placebo. >O.K. Lot's of people say that. No, Vernon -- you're one of the few who tries to make the claim that vaccination is an example of homeopathy. It's not. The Law of Similars doesn't apply with vaccination.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about Barbra Streisand." -- Bill Maher
Vernono O - 16 Sep 2007 17:53 GMT >>>>>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental >>>>>>>>>drugs [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > vaccination is an example of homeopathy. It's not. The Law of > Similars doesn't apply with vaccination. Play your little game all you want. Try to get rid of the hate diatribe. FYI vaccination and the like have many different forms.
Vernono O - 14 Sep 2007 18:54 GMT >>>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental >>>>>>>drugs [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > they won't, in general, pay for things like homeopathy that has never > been shown to have any effect beyond placebo. Forget your obsession with homeo stuff. Get with the subject. How about real anticipated cures or remission agents proposed by some fairly honest clinics and research centers? If the person is terminally ill (a tough call) why not spend the SAME "government" money on a person rather than a rat? We, yes WE, spend multi BILLIONS into an endless hole on so called cancer "research". IF they tried every suggested homeopathic method and ALL it did was give the patient placebo hope, it would be insignificant peanuts. It would be no worse than the "non cure" happy pills, cocaine, morphine they administer.
Insurance companies have a documented list of treatments. That's life. Reality says that it's "cheaper" to let the person die.
If it's your wife, child, mother laying there, be DAMNED sure you give them no hope whatever. As a matter of fact if they complain of pain slap them and say, "Oh, shut up. You want pain? I'll show you pain."
The question was, "Should the PATIENT have the RIGHT?" Your answer: "Awe go to hell, who cares, hurry up and die."
David Wright - 30 Sep 2007 00:33 GMT >>>>>>>>The United States is currently considering allowing experimental >>>>>>>>drugs [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >call) why not spend the SAME "government" money on a person rather than a >rat? Well, you really do need to try it out on the rat first, just to see whether it does anything at all, and whether the cure is worse than the disease. After all, most drugs don't work out.
As for the rest of it, there are plenty of pragmatic issues that you're glossing over. For example, HOW MUCH should we be willing to sink into this. New drugs are often fantastically expensive to make. And the maker usually doesn't have that much on hand. How much money shall we spend on making more? Who's going to do it?
It's not practical to say that any patient should get any treatment they want. It's infeasibly expensive, which means we need to draw the line somewhere, but as soon as we do that, we're right back in the business of deciding what we will or won't pay for.
>We, yes WE, spend multi BILLIONS into an endless hole on so called >cancer "research". IF they tried every suggested homeopathic method >and ALL it did was give the patient placebo hope, it would be >insignificant peanuts. Financially, yes, but it wouldn't cure anyone. Why spend a nickel on that?
>It would be no worse than the "non cure" happy pills, cocaine, >morphine they administer. But they'll still need the morphine. The pain isn't going to vanish because you're popping placebos.
>Insurance companies have a documented list of treatments. That's life. >Reality says that it's "cheaper" to let the person die. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >The question was, "Should the PATIENT have the RIGHT?" >Your answer: "Awe go to hell, who cares, hurry up and die." My answer was that the patient doesn't have the right to demand that someone else pay for whatever treatment they want.
And they don't.
Sorry about your reading comprehension problems. Really, you should see someone about those...
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about Barbra Streisand." -- Bill Maher
Vernono O - 30 Sep 2007 03:44 GMT >>"David Wright" <wright@l1000.prodigy.net> wrote in message Summation of David Wright answer. "I don't care if there is a possibility of cure. I HATE everyone and "physically" love (have a sexual reaction) to DOCTORS."
David Wright - 30 Sep 2007 05:30 GMT >>>"David Wright" <wright@l1000.prodigy.net> wrote in message > >Summation of David Wright answer. >"I don't care if there is a possibility of cure. I HATE everyone and >"physically" love (have a sexual reaction) to DOCTORS." Ah, Vernon's now reduced to silly insults -- he does get that way when someone points out that he can never back up his numerous claims.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "[Republicans] talk about Reagan the way gay guys talk about Barbra Streisand." -- Bill Maher
t - 30 Sep 2007 12:55 GMT Troll snipped.
Vernono O - 30 Sep 2007 17:12 GMT > Troll snipped. He is good proof of those who slow down medical research or cures.
Mark Probert - 11 Sep 2007 13:02 GMT >> The United States is currently considering allowing experimental drugs >> to be given to people at their end of life. I found the discussion on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > travelling to Lourdes. You'd think insurance would be happy to pay > for something that's certain to cost less. Only if there is some reasonable chance of success.
> (As if that's ever going to happen.) > > -- > First, eliminate the poison. Agreed. Eliminate Laetrile and the scum who promote it.
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