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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / July 2007

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The MCS Opponents

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Ilena Rose - 13 Jul 2007 23:26 GMT
The MCS Opponents

http://wsmcsn.s5.com/opponents.htm
by Don Richard Paladin

I was the middle child of a large family. This is a unique position in
family dynamics. I have always been able to see both sides of the
issue. In fourth grade American History, I learned from my teacher of
political fence straddlers who were called "mugwumps" because their
faces were on one side of the fence and their rumps on the other side.
I am a proud centrist, Mugwump. I have also learned to value all sides
of an issue and to listen. It is a useful tool, being able to listen
to and understand others. Often we want to polarize issues and
demonize our opponents. I may not agree with the opponents of MCS;
but, I do not believe they are demons.

Many of the opponents of MCS are motivated by their own level of
understanding and their own personal agendas. As a teacher I learned
that we all bring to our ability to understand what we have already
experienced and what we have already learned. We often filter
information that we relate to based upon both our experience and that
with which we identify. The idea that even a centrist "mugwump" with
chemical intolerance can be any more objective about the issues of
chemical injury will be hard to believe. I do have a bias because I
speak to my experience and understanding of my experience. I am
strongly motivated by a desire to find safe alternatives to toxic
chemicals that make me ill. I want others to understand my illness.
There are others who are opponents of MCS who have a different set of
experiences and motivations.

Those who are opponents of MCS can be characterized in two classes
some of whom are in both: 1) those who really don't understand the
mechanism of the disorder and genuinely feel that it is a
psychological problem and 2) those who might feel there is a problem
with chemically induced disorders and are afraid of the economic
liabilities associated with recognition of the Toxic Induced
Disorders. For the most part, most opponents fall into the category of
the unaware. Unfortunately, there is also a very strong economic
incentive overlay in maintaining opposition to recognition of MCS. I
really do not know which category the network of pro industry,
opponents of MCS experts are. It is much easier to focus upon and
support a system of belief about anything if it benefits you to do so.
Still, there are many in the medical and scientific community who have
not accepted MCS as a valid medical disorder because it has no
conventionally accepted, definitive diagnostic marker. That is a
legitimate concern. However, those who are truly objective do not
lobby against recognition. They do not attempt to prevent research by
using a ruse of a "psychological" diagnosis to diminish and discount
the individuals with a not well understood disorder.

One also must look at the associations formed by any opponents or
proponents of any group. If money is a factor, as it is often in
research, one must follow the money trail. When evaluating any
research one must determine if the supposed experts are coming from a
position which would benefit or be harmed from the hypothesis being
supported by the research. One must ask on which side of an issue is
the researcher. If someone is passing themselves off as an expert on
any issue, one must determine whether they would benefit from
maintaining their expert position if truth on the issue contradicted
their belief system and view.

I have no real first hand knowledge about the players in the arena of
MCS opponents except for that which I have read. I have added links to
this page in order that the details of the stories of the opponents of
MCS must be followed. I can only suggest a list of questions we all
must have answered about the opponents of MCS recognition. There are
no implications in these questions that those named are guilty of
anything except acting upon their own belief systems. We all believe
we are right. Learning is about recognizing and learning from our
errors. There are no doubt a number of errors on our website. The
objective of pursuit of truth is to resolve our problems.



Here are some questions that only those who are closely involved in
the issues can answer. We do not know the answers and are not begging
the question.

1. Why did Ronald Gots create Environmental Sensitivity Research
Institute?

2. Did he and other proindustry groups like ACSH create their groups
to create scientific misinformation (aka cigarette science) and PR for
their economic supporters?

3. What is the financial and interactive association, if any, among
Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch, Elizabeth Wheland of ACSH, and Cindy
Richard and/or Ronald Gots of ESRI?

4. Why were groups like Stephen Barrett's Quackwatch actively lobbying
against recognition of MCS?

5. Did Frank Mitchell, a board member of ESRI and former employee of
ATSDR, create a very pro industry document as a consultant for ATSDR
when writing the Interagency MCS Draft Report?

6. Has Ronald Gots created a network of pro-industry, anti-MCS experts
to prevent recognition of MCS and to protect the economic interests of
his business industry backers?

7. If one checked the oppositional research on MCS, would there be a
money trail that led to an association of a network of expert
witnesses against MCS?

Reference Links [The opinions and information of links below are those
of the writers and not necessarily ours.]

1. Cover: Best Science Money Can Buy at
http://web.cln.com/archives/charlotte/newsstand/c031498/cover11.htm
2. Corporate Manipulation of Scientific Evidence Linking Chemical
Exposures at http://consumerlawpage.com/article/chemical.shtml 
3. "It's All In Your Head" at
http://www.speakeasy.org/wfp/08/Boeing6.html
4. "A New Mechanism of Disease?" at
http://www.monitor.net/rachel/r585.html
5. Cigarette Science [Multiple Chemical Sensitivity] at
http://www.monitor.net/rachel/r464.html
6. "The Junkyard Dogs of Science"
athttp://www.prwatch.org/98-Q4/dogs.html
7. "Strange bedfellows: Journalists as corporate shills," by Mark
Shapiro, at http://www.salon.com/media/media961022.html 8. Prime-time
propagandist: Is ABC's John Stossel a reporter or a right-wing
apparatchik? by David Mastio at
http://www.salon.com/media/feature/2000/02/25/stossel/index.html

9. MCS R & R Press Release, ABC’s John Stossel Denounced For Sending
Phony Patients to Discredit Diagnosis of Multiple Chemical Sensitivity
group charges Stossel with pursuing chemical industry agenda, 26 Sept
96, at http://www.mcsrr.org/pressreleases/prabc96.html 

10. Mulitple Chemical Sensitivity Under Siege by Ann McCampbell, M.D.
at http://www.getipm.com/personal/mcs-campbell.htm (A must READ!)



The MCS Adversaries

1. QuackWatch Home Page at
http://www.familyinternet.com/quackwatch/index.html
2. Pesticide Related News Briefs
athttp://www.pestlaw.com/news/index.htm
3. Environmental Sensitivities Research Institute Home Page at
http://www.esri.org/
4. Michael Fumento on pesitcides at http://fumento.com/supest.html

MCS Adversaries' articles on MCS

1. The American Council on Science and Health, Inc. (ACSH)
athttp://www.acsh.org/about/index.html
2. Multiple Chemical Sensitivity ACSH at
http://www.acsh.org/publications/booklets/mcs.html
3. MCS: Mis-Concern Serious by Dr. Stephen Barrett of QuackWatch
(ACSH) at http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/1101/mcs.html

4. 1990 Chemical Manufacturer Association's Enviornmental Illness
Briefing Paper  at
http://users.lanminds.com/~wilworks/books/cmaeibri.htm (Shades of the
master plan - The Coalition)

5. MCS, Vol. 8, No. 3, 1994, "The chemically sensitive controverrsy,"
Issues of Injury, Medical Consultants Network, at
http://www.mcn.com/ioi/1994/mcs.htm (An objective presentation ...
worth the read)
Jan Drew - 14 Jul 2007 07:36 GMT
> The MCS Opponents
>
[quoted text clipped - 155 lines]
> http://www.mcn.com/ioi/1994/mcs.htm (An objective presentation ...
> worth the read)

Excellent!  Except some of the links could not be found.  Internet explore
has a current problem.
The One True Zhen Jue - 14 Jul 2007 13:54 GMT
<Ridiculous BS snipped for brevity, clarity, and fragrance>

MCS is NOT an organic disorder.

Please see recent posts by Mark Thorson & myself on this topic.
The facts are in and "MCS" is clearly a psychiatric, not physiological
disorder.

Do make a note of it and stop lying to the public.
Coleah - 14 Jul 2007 14:48 GMT
On Jul 14, 7:54 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> <Ridiculous BS snipped for brevity, clarity, and fragrance>
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Do make a note of it and stop lying to the public.

MCS is a sensitivity to multiple chemicals.  Having had a 'sensitivity
to multiple chemicals' which affected my breathing.....is my take:

MCS is a disorder which manifests itself physiologically.
If there is no physiological reaction being manifested
(and people claim that chemicals make them 'feel depressed'),
then there is something psychiatric going on.
Medusa - 15 Jul 2007 02:36 GMT
On Jul 14, 7:54 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> <Ridiculous BS snipped for brevity, clarity, and fragrance>
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Do make a note of it and stop lying to the public.

And who are you to say MCS is a psychiatric disorder?  You are the one
who is trying to deceive people about it.

The it's "all in your head" copout is pure psychobabble.

Medusa
The One True Zhen Jue - 15 Jul 2007 14:16 GMT
> On Jul 14, 7:54 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> And who are you to say MCS is a psychiatric disorder?

I'm just reporting the facts as they are.  MCS IS a psychiatric
disorder.  Reread the links that Mark Thorson & I have posted.

>  You are the one
> who is trying to deceive people about it.

That is what is known as a self-referential statement.  Since you're
as daft as your enabler, Jan Drew, I'll explain what that means.  It
means your attempted insult is really a good description of yourself.

> The it's "all in your head" copout is pure psychobabble.

No, there are many disorders that are psychiatric in nature.  For
example, Panic Disorder.  You just feel that being diagnosed with a
psychiatric disorder is an insult or punishment.  That speaks volumes
about how you perceive & judge other mentally ill people.

The refusal to accept the scientifically validated facts is just
another symptom of your psychiatric disorder.  Denial will NOT help
you.  Getting angry at the medical industry will NOT help you.
Reposting lies from Jan Drew and her ilk will NOT help you.  Dr
Mercola can't help you; hell he can't even keep his myths about autism
straight!

The lesson of acceptance CAN help you.  It is one of the hardest
lessons to learn.  That is because it requires being honest with
oneself, letting of your anger, and accepting the world and oneself as
they are.

Are you up for it or are you just going to continue to play the
Conspiracy card?

> Medusa
Medusa - 16 Jul 2007 01:37 GMT
On Jul 15, 8:16 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> I'm just reporting the facts as they are.  MCS IS a psychiatric
> disorder.  Reread the links that Mark Thorson & I have posted.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> as daft as your enabler, Jan Drew, I'll explain what that means.  It
> means your attempted insult is really a good description of yourself.

Yeah, right.  Poisons poison, and if you think some of the chemicals
in everyday products are not poison, you are ill-informed.

> > The it's "all in your head" copout is pure psychobabble.
>
> No, there are many disorders that are psychiatric in nature.  For
> example, Panic Disorder.  You just feel that being diagnosed with a
> psychiatric disorder is an insult or punishment.  That speaks volumes
> about how you perceive & judge other mentally ill people.

You don't know me at all.  I do not feel that being disagnosed with a
psychaitric disorder is an insult, nor do I judge those who have such
a diagnosis.  What angers me is being misdiagnonsed and judged by
someone who knows nothing of my case or illness.

Telling me to get psychaitric help for a disorder that is an organic
disease is not going to help me.  Removing the toxins from my
surroundings DOES help.  That is the only reason I reject psychairtric
help for a physical illness; if it helped, I would have no problem
accepting it.

As I said, you don't know me.  I was the one who practically dragged a
friend to a psychaitrist when I could see she was spiralling down into
a deep depression that was leading to suicide.  Her family refused to
see how dire her condition was; denial solved everything when you
don't want to deal with the reality.

That was years and years ago; today she is doing OK, but her parents
still resent me for getting her a "nutcase" label, even though, if she
hadn't gotten help (through a welfare agency because she had no
insurance or money) she'd probably have a "dead at age 20" label.

So, you see, I do beleive in getting psychairtric treatment when it
may help.

Medusa

> The refusal to accept the scientifically validated facts is just
> another symptom of your psychiatric disorder.  Denial will NOT help
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Are you up for it or are you just going to continue to play the
> Conspiracy card?
Mark Thorson - 16 Jul 2007 02:08 GMT
> The refusal to accept the scientifically validated facts is just
> another symptom of your psychiatric disorder.  Denial will NOT help
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Are you up for it or are you just going to continue to play the
> Conspiracy card?

The latter.  MCS is like a religion.  To consider
any other explanation is to express doubt.
Doubt leads to heresy, so the committed MCS
"victim" will not even take the first step
to doubt.

But that will not lead to resolution of the
symptoms.  It's like the voices heard by
people with schizophrenia.  Some of the people
who hear these voices are resistant to the
explanation that the voices are an illusion.
They insist the voices are real, and often
claim that satellites or cellphone towers are
beaming the voices into their head for some
obscure purpose.  Some people have a mild
enough case of schizophrenia that they can
get along in society without treatment,
and keep their delusion that the voices
are real.  But these people will not progress
toward a resolution of their problem.  They
will not make any progress until they accept
that they have a psychiatric disorder and
cooperate with treatment for that disorder
using therapies with a good track record
of success.
Medusa - 16 Jul 2007 19:54 GMT
> The latter.  MCS is like a religion.  To consider
> any other explanation is to express doubt.
> Doubt leads to heresy, so the committed MCS
> "victim" will not even take the first step
> to doubt.

MCS like a religion?  Now that would be funny if I didn't have the
damn condition.

> But that will not lead to resolution of the
> symptoms.  It's like the voices heard by
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> using therapies with a good track record
> of success.

So now I have a condition like a schizophrenic patient hearing
voices!  Congratulations, that has to be the stupidest theory I have
read yet!

I've got news for you, wise guy:  there IS no psychaitric treatment
for this disorder.  Don't think I haven't talked to a doctor about it,
either.

And, I know it will make you sorry to hear this, but over 5 years of
living with a minmum of chemical exposes has made me more tolerant of
toxins in the world.  Now I can sit next to someone wearing "normal"
scented products without getting a massive reaction.  I still avoid
this whenever I can, and I know I'm just another major exposure away
from getting back to square one with the damn MCS.  But I am getting
better without any "help" from a psychaitrist.

I am really sick of arguing with people who have their heads stuck in
the sand when they hear about MCS, so don't bother writing any more of
your wanna-be-a-shrink bullcrap.

Medusa
Mark Thorson - 17 Jul 2007 02:13 GMT
> I've got news for you, wise guy:  there IS no psychaitric treatment
> for this disorder.  Don't think I haven't talked to a doctor about it,
> either.

Not in every case, but this guy was rapidly
cured of his alleged MCS with an anti-depressant
drug.  If he had resisted therapy, he might
still have MCS today.  But he cooperated with
conventional medicine, and his MCS vanished.

Acta Psychiatr Scand. 1997 Jul;96(1):82-3.
Successful use of a selective serotonin reuptake
inhibitor in a patient with multiple chemical
sensitivities.
Andine P, Ronnback L, Jarvholm B.
Department of Psychiatry, Institute of Clinical
Neuroscience, Sahlgrenska University Hospital,
Goteborg, Sweden.

A 53-year-old man with multiple chemical sensitivities
(MCS) received the selective serotonin reuptake
inhibitor (SSRI) citalopram for treatment of depression.
The treatment was successful and, in parallel to the
remission of the depressive symptoms, all MCS symptoms
vanished. This suggests that a subgroup of MCS patients
may have an atypical depression, that they should be
psychiatrically evaluated, and that antidepressive
pharmacological treatment may be considered in cases
of MCS.
Jan Drew - 17 Jul 2007 06:45 GMT
"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net> harassed as usual:

>> I've got news for you, wise guy:  there IS no psychaitric treatment
>> for this disorder.  Don't think I haven't talked to a doctor about it,
>> either.
>
> Acta Psychiatr Scand. 1997 Jul;96

Definte clue.

http://www.conservativeusa.org/psych-fraud.htm

http://www.adhdfraud.org/history_of_the_fraud_of_biological_psychiatry.htm

http://www.itsaruby.com/Psych%20Truth.htm

Websites Exposing Psychiatry

 a.. Citizen's Commission on Human Rights
 b.. Fight for Kids
 c.. The Antipsychiatry Coalition
 d.. Psych Drug Truth
 e.. Psych Assault
 f.. The Dark Side of Psychiatry
 g.. PsychCrime.org
 h.. Psychiatric Drug Facts
 i.. Death From Ritalin - The Truth Behind ADHD
 j.. Wildest Colt Resources
 k.. StopShrinks.org
 l.. International Coalition For Drug Awareness
 m.. NoPsychs.org
 n.. Psychbusters Network
 o.. This Way Lies Ruin
"If the race is to be freed from its crippling burden of good and evil, it
must be psychiatrists who take the original responsibility."
(G. Brock Chisholm, past president, World Federation for Mental Health)

Articles on Psychiatry

 a.. The Drugging of our Children
 b.. Why Psychiatric Drugs are Always Bad
 c.. 25 Good Reasons Why Psychiatry Must Be Abolished
 d.. No Proof Mental Illness Rooted in Biology
 e.. Notes on Psychiatric Fascism
 f.. On Ritalin and "Hyperactivity Disorder"
 g.. Informed Consent and the Psychiatric Drugging of Children
 h.. Does ADHD Even Exist?  The Ritalin Sham
 i.. Prescription Drugs May Trigger Killings
 j.. Drugging our Children The Legal Way
 k.. Doctors Say there is No ADD Test
 l.. ADHD Facts
"...In numbers unmatched in any part of the world, U.S. school children are
diagnosed and drugged in a quid pro quo association between education and
for-profit psychiatry and psychology. Labeled "brain-diseased", the schools
have an excuse for the rampant illiteracy and unpreparedness, cause enough
for the mounting unhappiness and failure of the children, while
psychiatry/psychology gains lifetime patients.
(Thomas Armstrong, Ph.D. educator and psychologist)

The War Against Children of Color: Psychiatry Targets Inner-City Youth
Dr. Dre - 18 Jul 2007 05:59 GMT
> "Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net> harassed as usual:
>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> The War Against Children of Color: Psychiatry Targets Inner-City Youth

Thanks for the links, Jan.

Signature

http://geocities.com/drdre5478965/

Jan Drew - 17 Jul 2007 06:28 GMT
>> The latter.  MCS is like a religion.  To consider
>> any other explanation is to express doubt.
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> Medusa

Best to not believe a word Mark Thorson says.

BEWARE!!
Mark Thorson makes libellous statements and then retracts same when faced
with law suits.Being a slow learner he will always do this until he converts
to Falun Dafa.   Rod
Medusa - 17 Jul 2007 19:44 GMT
> Best to not believe a word Mark Thorson says.

Thanks, Jan.  I've decided not to take anything he says seriously
anymore.  He's beginning to sound like he's swallowed the chemical
industry's propaganda, hool, line, and sinker.

Medusa
Mark Thorson - 17 Jul 2007 20:06 GMT
> > Best to not believe a word Mark Thorson says.
>
> Thanks, Jan.  I've decided not to take anything he says seriously
> anymore.  He's beginning to sound like he's swallowed the chemical
> industry's propaganda, hool, line, and sinker.

No, I get my facts from the peer-reviewed scientific
research literature, not charlatans trying to exploit
and exacerbate the suffering of people for profit.

Jan is a classic example of a victim of these scammers.
She's got lots invested in her beliefs, as do you.

For her to accept any other explanation for her
perceived problems would mean admitting that she's
wasted years and much money on nothing.  It's easier
for her to cling to her beliefs than accept that.

You get the future you deserve.  If you want to
spend the rest of your life stewing in your condition,
perhaps that's the best thing for you.  You wouldn't
have to change your beliefs.  You wouldn't have to
admit wasting a big piece of your life.  You could
proudly struggle on, content in the "knowledge" that
you are a victim.  You might be happier that way.
It's your choice.
Coleah - 19 Jul 2007 05:31 GMT
> > > Best to not believe a word Mark Thorson says.
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> you are a victim.  You might be happier that way.
> It's your choice.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark, that was excellent.  It may sound harsh to some folks, however
it can apply to many different areas or events in life that bog people
down and keep them 'stuck'.

I had a personal event in my life that had me stuck in victim-mode.  I
had 'my story' about it down to a broken-record rendition that played
my 'victim' story over and over to anyone who would listen.   It took
someone like you to point out that the more I stayed stuck replaying
my part as a victim, the more I was held back from moving on with life
to better things.

That was not to say that my experience was not real, or that I had not
been a victim (in my point of view).  It meant I didn't need to be
haunted or stuck with a negative position that was killing me.
Healing begins when a person is willing to transform whatever 'it'
is.  Illness is painted black, wears cement overshoes and hangs heavy
around a neck like an albatrose.

Thank you for sharing.
The One True Zhen Jue - 19 Jul 2007 19:43 GMT
> > > > Best to not believe a word Mark Thorson says.
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thank you, Coleah, for sharing!
Medusa - 19 Jul 2007 22:01 GMT
> Mark, that was excellent.  It may sound harsh to some folks, however
> it can apply to many different areas or events in life that bog people
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> my part as a victim, the more I was held back from moving on with life
> to better things.

I don't know what your "story" is, but I am not a "victim."  I am a
survivor and a fighter.

Just as the pilot of a plane who survives a crash must get back into
the pilot's seat ASAP, someone with MCS must get back into the real
world, armed with defenses like a charcoal face mask, but out among
the "normals" who are not bothered by chemicals and use them without a
thought.  Another defense is an exit plan.  If someone reeking of a
chemical fragrance enters a train car I'm riding on, I am sitting near
the door and change cars.

> That was not to say that my experience was not real, or that I had not
> been a victim (in my point of view).  It meant I didn't need to be
> haunted or stuck with a negative position that was killing me.
> Healing begins when a person is willing to transform whatever 'it'
> is.  Illness is painted black, wears cement overshoes and hangs heavy
> around a neck like an albatrose.

Illness IS like a black albatross wearing cement overshoes hanging
around your neck.  The solution?  Learn hope to cope with it; develop
stronger neck muscles or get a sling to hold the albatross you must
bear.

You cannot "transform" an illness away, or are you one of those who
believes illnesses can be "thought" away?  I feel sorry for people
like this.  One of my relatives died of skin cancer that started out
as a small spot on his face.  All the imaging and praying he did would
not get rid of that cancer; it grew, became malignant, spread
throughtout his body, and killed him.  At the start, simple surgery
would have cut out the spot.

I will survive this without going into a "victim" frame of mind.  I do
everything I want to do.  "Damn the torpedoes" is my motto.

Medusa
The One True Zhen Jue - 20 Jul 2007 00:21 GMT
> > Mark, that was excellent.  It may sound harsh to some folks, however
> > it can apply to many different areas or events in life that bog people
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> throughtout his body, and killed him.  At the start, simple surgery
> would have cut out the spot.

Medusa, you are partly right, a person cannot transform an ORGANIC
illness away.  Cancer is far too serious to ignore or to treat with
quackery.
Problems that are not organic MAY be transformed.  It has happened to
many people, including Coleah.

The point they made and that I heartily endorse is tha  You need to
discuss your conditions and symptoms.  You need to analyze how you
feel and vent your frustrations.  After you've done that, try to move
on.  At some point, you are just rehearsing, rehashing, and reliving
it.  At that point, you are feeding the demon and you're feeding it a
lot of energy.  Its the same principle as throwing good money after
bad.

> I will survive this without going into a "victim" frame of mind.  I do
> everything I want to do.  "Damn the torpedoes" is my motto.

Good!  Don't give up, and don't remain attached to the label you've
adopted.

> Medusa
Coleah - 20 Jul 2007 04:02 GMT
On Jul 19, 6:21 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > > Mark, that was excellent.  It may sound harsh to some folks, however
> > > it can apply to many different areas or events in life that bog people
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> lot of energy.  Its the same principle as throwing good money after
> bad.

Exactly.  People who are not 'stuck in an unhealthy victim mode'
certainly don't transform the illness (or situation) away.  They
transform the way they 'hold' the experience.  Being a victim has its
payoff from the rehashing and reliving, over and over.  They get to
stay 'stuck' in misery, self pity and most likely holding negative
energy inside about some thing or someone attached to their story.

Transforming is giving away the attachment to any negative energy,
about whatever 'it' is.  That part is not easy.
Jan Drew - 20 Jul 2007 15:04 GMT
<Andrew_Kingoff@yahoo.com> wrote >
> Good!  Don't give up, and don't remain attached to the label you've
> adopted.

That should read the label the lying *gang* has pronounced.

>> Medusa
The One True Zhen Jue - 20 Jul 2007 17:47 GMT
>  <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote >
>
> > Good!  Don't give up, and don't remain attached to the label you've
> > adopted.
>
> That should read the label the lying *gang* has pronounced.

No, Jan, its the label on the brand of cigarettes you chain smoke.
You come here and post about the dangers of safe, effective, FDA
approved sugar subsitutes while you suck tar & nicotine into your
lungs.  Keep smoking, Jan!

> >> Medusa- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Coleah - 20 Jul 2007 19:30 GMT
> >  <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote >
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

True story?
I had no idea that Jan was a smoker.  If you are Jan, do whatever it
takes to quit (even if you may gain unwanted weight from the
process).  You will feel so much better.
Jan Drew - 20 Jul 2007 15:00 GMT
Oh, looky...Coleah is actally using HER IPS and not
Coleah@ilena-rosenthal.com

Hmmm.

>> > > Best to not believe a word Mark Thorson says.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> research literature, not charlatans trying to exploit
>> and exacerbate the suffering of people for profit.

Literature form Quack Barrett.

>> Jan is a classic example of a victim of these scammers.
>> She's got lots invested in her beliefs, as do you.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> wasted years and much money on nothing.  It's easier
>> for her to cling to her beliefs than accept that.

Chalk that up as another lie.

>> You get the future you deserve.  If you want to
>> spend the rest of your life stewing in your condition,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> you are a victim.  You might be happier that way.
>> It's your choice.

The only part of my life that was wasted was searching and suffering for an
answer for
my health problem.  Needlessly,..because of the LIES of *organized
medicine*.  Which is exactly whatMark Thorson posts.  He is more conerned
about being a good little lackey for Quack Quack, than suffering people.
While he works in Silicon Valley.  No wonder he denies MCS.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mark, that was excellent.

Sadly, Coleah thinks lies are excellent.
Must be why she joins the *gang* in posting them.

It may sound harsh to some folks, however
> it can apply to many different areas or events in life that bog people
> down and keep them 'stuck'.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Thank you for sharing.

Coleah's experince was indeed very real.  Pictures don't lie.
When they were posted I stated how very brave and said God Bless you Coleah.

Only the true honest posters' here are capable of doing so.
Medusa - 18 Jul 2007 22:45 GMT
> Best to not believe a word Mark Thorson says.

I don't, now that he has revealed himself for what he is.

Thanks for posting this.

Medusa
bobandcarole - 24 Jul 2007 15:10 GMT
On Jul 19, 6:07 pm, Medusa <Medusa4...@yahoo.com> with the
store bought tits wrote:

> On Jul 19, 2:07 pm, The Belly Bionic <bellybio...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Yeah, and now I must look like an idiot on one Googlegroup

Honey you look like an idiot anywhere you post.
ScottyFLL - 24 Jul 2007 15:35 GMT
> But I'm not fat

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On Jun 18, 11:59 am, bobandcarole <bobandcarole...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm college educated

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Medusa - 24 Jul 2007 21:49 GMT
> On Jul 19, 6:07 pm, Medusa <Medusa4...@yahoo.com> with the
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Honey you look like an idiot anywhere you post.

You make me and most people look like a geniuses.

Now crawl back into your cave.

Medusa
Dionisio - 25 Jul 2007 00:38 GMT
>>Yeah, and now I must look like an idiot on one Googlegroup
>
> Honey you look like an idiot anywhere you post.

Look her in the eyes when you say that.

<ducks>

Signature

And the Thought of the Moment (TM) is:

If you cook a cow, it turns into "beef." Pop a pig in the oven and you've got "pork."
Serving up some deer? No you're not! That's "venison." Chow down on some sheep and you're
eating "mutton," or "lamb." But, if you plunk a chicken into a deep fryer, it remains
"chicken." Why?

(Brought to you by SigChanger. http://www.phranc.nl)

ironjustice@aol.com - 16 Jul 2007 15:37 GMT
>> On Jul 15, 6:16 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: The facts are in and "MCS" is clearly a psychiatric, not physiological
disorder. <<

Seeing that you like to use .. science .. as one of your .. guides ..
how do you think .. iron .. in these studies .. fit .. in the ..
science .. end of this .. hypothesis .. ?

If iron makes a .. **difference** .. then the whole .. psychiatric
'deal' .. flies .. like the proverbial .. dodo ..

<<snip>>
chemicals, iron and ALA can act independently, but also together, to
cause porphyria in susceptible individuals.
<<snip>>

<<snip>>
test MCS patients for **increased porphyrin**
<<snip>>

Uroporphyria induced by 5-aminolaevulinic acid alone in Ahrd SWR
mice.
Constantin D, Francis JE, Akhtar RA, Clothier B, Smith AG
Biochem Pharmacol. 1996 Nov 8; 52(9): 1407-13

In mice, depression of hepatic uroporphyrinogen decarboxylase (UROD)
leading to porphyrin accumulation (uroporphyria) occurs with
chlorinated ligands of the aryl hydrocarbon (AH) receptor especially
after iron overload. However, in the absence of chlorinated ligands,
iron itself will eventually cause uroporphyria, but this response is
not associated with the Ahr genotype. These effects are potentiated
by
administration of the haem precursor 5-aminolaevulinate (ALA). The
aim
of this study was to investigate the effects of ALA alone. Prolonged
administration of 2 mg ALA/mL in the drinking water to SWR mice also
led to decarboxylase insufficiency (11% of control) and uroporphyria
by
8 weeks, whereas DBA/2 mice did not show reduced enzyme activity.
Both
strains are considered AH nonresponsive and analysis of the Ahr gene
using restriction fragment length polymorphism was consistent with
SWR,
like DBA/2, possessing the Ahrd allele. Exposure of isolated
hepatocytes to ALA (150-500 microM) for up to 48 hr showed a
significant accumulation of both uroporphyrin and coproporphyrin in
the
medium, which for uroporphyrin particularly was significantly greater
with SWR than with DBA/2 cells. Basal in vivo CYP1A2 activity,
measured
as microsomal methoxyresorufin dealkylation, was significantly
greater
in SWR than in DBA/2 mice (1.3-fold), but it was unclear whether this
was sufficient to explain the marked difference in sensitivities of
the
two strains. Despite SWR mice being AH nonresponsive, uroporphyria
and
decarboxylase depression after an initial iron overload and ALA for 3
weeks were greatly potentiated by a single dose (100 mg/kg) of
hexachlorobenzene (a weak AH ligand). The results demonstrate that
there is a genetic difference in mice independent of the Ahr genotype
and response to iron, which influences the susceptibility to
ALA-induced uroporphyria. Thus chemicals, iron and ALA can act
independently, but also together, to cause porphyria in susceptible
individuals.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------------------------------------

Multiple Chemical Sensitivitity (MCS)Multiple Chemical Sensitivity is
the name given to a syndrome in which a ... test MCS patients for
**increased porphyrin** content in urine and stool samples. ...
www.ei-resource.org/mcs.asp - 87k - Dec 25, 2006 - Cached - Similar
pages

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------------------------------------

<<snip>>
ascorbate suppresses hepatic URO accumulation at low, but not high
hepatic iron levels
<<snip>>

Effect of iron and ascorbate on uroporphyria in ascorbate-requiring
mice as a model for porphyria cutanea tarda.
Gorman N, Zaharia A, Trask HS, Szakacs JG, Jacobs NJ, Jacobs JM,
Balestra D, Sinclair JF, Sinclair PR
Hepatology. 2006 Dec 22; 45(1): 187-194

Excess hepatic iron is known to enhance both porphyria cutanea tarda
(PCT) and experimental uroporphyria. Since previous studies have
suggested a role for ascorbate (AA) in suppressing uroporphyria in
AA-requiring rats (in the absence of excess iron), the present study
investigated whether AA could suppress uroporphyria produced by
excess
hepatic iron. Hepatic URO accumulation was produced in AA-requiring
Gulo(-/-) mice by treatment with 3,3',4,4',5-pentachlorbiphenyl, an
inducer of CYP1A2, and 5-aminolevulinic acid. Mice were administered
either sufficient AA (1000 ppm) in the drinking water to maintain
near
normal hepatic AA levels or a lower intake (75 ppm) that resulted in
70

% lower hepatic AA levels. The higher AA intake suppressed hepatic
URO
accumulation in the absence of administered iron, but not when iron
dextran (300-500 mg Fe/kg) was administered. This effect of iron was
not due to hepatic AA depletion since hepatic AA content was not
decreased. The effect of iron to prevent AA suppression of hepatic
URO
accumulation was not observed until a high hepatic iron threshold was
exceeded. At both low and high AA intakes, hepatic malondialdehyde
(MDA), an indicator of oxidative stress, was increased three-fold by
high doses of iron dextran. MDA was considerably increased even at
low
iron dextran doses, but without any increase in URO accumulation. The
level of hepatic CYP1A2 was unaffected by either AA intake.
Conclusion:

In this mouse model of PCT, AA suppresses hepatic URO accumulation at
low, but not high hepatic iron levels. These results may have
implications for the management of PCT. (HEPATOLOGY
2007;45:187-194.).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------------------------------------

The iron loading diseases .. hemochromatosis and hepatitis C .. may
CAUSE .. porphyria ..

Sooo .. eating .. meat .. that highly absorbable form of iron FOUND
in
meat .. then raises iron levels .. and therefore may CAUSE ..
porphyria.

http://exchange.healthwell.com/news.cfm?news=1746

<<snip>>
"it is probable that a chronically high intake of heme iron can lead
to high body iron stores and thus may elevate the risk of diabetes,"
the authors said. "
<<snip>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyria

<<snip>>
Some liver diseases may cause porphyria even in the absence of
genetic
predisposition. These include hemochromatosis and hepatitis C.
Treatment of iron overload may be required.
<<snip>>

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
The One True Zhen Jue - 16 Jul 2007 17:26 GMT
On Jul 16, 10:37 am, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com>
wrote:
> >> On Jul 15, 6:16 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: The facts are in and "MCS" is clearly a psychiatric, not physiological
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> how do you think .. iron .. in these studies .. fit .. in the ..
> science .. end of this .. hypothesis .. ?

Its irrelevant; Iron is a (rusty?) red herring.

> If iron makes a .. **difference** .. then the whole .. psychiatric
> 'deal' .. flies .. like the proverbial .. dodo ..

Your posts .. smell like actual .. Doo-Doo ..
Coleah - 16 Jul 2007 17:37 GMT
On Jul 16, 9:37 am, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 15, 6:16 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote: The facts are in and "MCS" is clearly a psychiatric, not physiological
>
[quoted text clipped - 152 lines]
>
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I actually have an interest in porphyria cutanea tarda,
but couldn't follow what you presented here with some type
of regard to MCS.  Sorry.
Alan_K_FL@yahoo.com - 16 Jul 2007 10:25 GMT
On Jul 14, 5:54 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> <Ridiculous BS snipped for brevity, clarity, and fragrance>
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The facts are in and "MCS" is clearly a psychiatric, not physiological
> disorder.

To which facts, specifically, are you referring?

I read a link you posted, and it did not show what you claim.
The One True Zhen Jue - 16 Jul 2007 12:44 GMT
On Jul 16, 5:25 am, Alan_K...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Jul 14, 5:54 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I read a link you posted, and it did not show what you claim.

Sure it did.  Perhaps you were looking for something that said "MCS" =
Psychiatric, Dude!  Since you are unfamiliar with how grow-ups discuss
medical conditions, let me point you back in the right direction.
Reread this part of the article and all of Mark Thorson's recent posts
on the topic.  You'll find that replicated, controlled studies show
the true nature of this condition; that it is NOT an organic
disorder.

It seems as if you (and a few others) think that we are underrating
MCS.  Its almost as if you guys are die-hard Green Bay fans who feel
that their team isn't getting its proper measure of respect.  I
consider MCS a serious problem, just like Panic disorder or Paranoia.
Its not an insult to view Panic disorder as non-organic.  We are not
"down-sizing" MCS, we are merely reporting the facts that it have been
shown in replicated studies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity#Psychological_causes

Psychological causes
Several mechanisms for psychological etiology have been proposed
including theories based on stress, Pavlovian conditioning, or
misdiagnoses of an underlying mental illness. Behavior exhibited by
MCS sufferers may reflect broader sociological fears about industrial
pollution.[25]

It's difficult to differentiate psychological and physiological
etiologies of MCS because substances used to test for sensitivity can
often be detected by scent. Odor cues make double blind studies of MCS
patients difficult, and scents might provoke a psychosomatic response.
Research by Dr Mariko Saito et al from the Department of Psychosomatic
Medicine at the University of Tokyo in 2005 found that patients only
experienced symptoms when they themselves initiated the challenge
tests. When they were given random prompts, there was no difference
between MCS patients and controls in terms of physical and psychologic
symptoms.[26] Their conclusion was "MCS patients do not have either
somatic or psychologic symptoms under chemical-free conditions, and
symptoms may be provoked only when exposed to chemicals," although
their results showed that it was not the chemicals themselves that
caused the symptoms.

A review of 37 provocation studies concluded that "persons with MCS do
react to chemical challenges; however, these responses occur when they
can discern differences between active and sham substances, suggesting
that the mechanism of action is not specific to the chemical itself
and might be related to expectations and prior beliefs".[11] Critics
of such provocation studies assert that they are inconclusive because
they often employ masking odors which themselves are alleged to
trigger MCS. At least one study attempted to correct for this problem
by only using patients who do not respond to the masking odor, and
this provocation study similarly showed no correlation between
symptoms and chemical exposure.[27]

Another study found strong evidence of a placebo effect; purported MCS
sufferers claimed symptoms in nonblinded tests when fed suspected food
extracts, but were unable to produce symptoms consistently when the
tests were doubleblinded; similarly, patients responded identically to
"treatments" and saline.[28]
Jan Drew - 17 Jul 2007 06:57 GMT
"The One Lying, Harassing proven liar who can't remember who he is, hides
behing fake names such as...ilsa  wishs dsabilites on others, tries to
deconstruct those he disagrees with<Andrew_Kingoff@yahoo.com> wrote :
> On Jul 16, 5:25 am, Alan_K...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Jul 14, 5:54 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Sure it did.  Perhaps you were looking for something that said "MCS" =
> Psychiatric, Dude!

Sadly, he thinks this is the only proof needed.
DrDre_2007_07@yahoo.com - 17 Jul 2007 12:18 GMT
> >> > MCS is NOT an organic disorder.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> > Sure it did.  Perhaps you were looking for something that said "MCS" =
> > Psychiatric, Dude!

People should look for something that's reasonable in the slightest,
in contrast to the drivel you flaunt.

> Sadly, he thinks this is the only proof needed.

And so his reign-of-idiocy is coming to a close.
jandew6 - 17 Jul 2007 12:37 GMT
>> >> > MCS is NOT an organic disorder.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> And so his reign-of-idiocy is coming to a close.

You left out what Andrew Kingoff posted.
Dr. Dre - 18 Jul 2007 05:27 GMT
version 2

> "The One Lying, Harassing proven liar who can't remember who he is, hides
> behing fake names such as...ilsa  wishs dsabilites on others, tries to
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>> Sure it did.  Perhaps you were looking for something that said "MCS" =
>> Psychiatric, Dude!

People should look for something that's reasonable in the slightest, in contrast to the drivel you flaunt.

> Sadly, he thinks this is the only proof needed.

And so his reign-of-idiocy is coming to a close.

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