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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / June 2007

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Michael Moore targets "immoral" health care system

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top_left_second_molar@yahoo.com - 14 Jun 2007 10:01 GMT
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3274963&page=1
George Conklin - 14 Jun 2007 12:22 GMT
> http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3274963&page=1

Try this one out:

Stark evidence that high medical payments do not necessarily buy
high-quality patient care is presented in a hospital study set for release
today.

In a Pennsylvania government survey of the state's 60 hospitals that perform
heart bypass surgery, the best-paid hospital received nearly $100,000, on
average, for the operation while the least-paid got less than $20,000. At
both, patients had comparable lengths of stay and death rates.

And among the 20 hospitals serving metropolitan Philadelphia, two of the
highest paid actually had higher-than-expected death rates, the survey
found.

Hospitals say there are numerous reasons for some of the high payments,
including the fact that a single very expensive case can push up the
averages.

Still, the Pennsylvania findings support a growing national consensus that
as consumers, insurers and employers pay more for care, they are not
necessarily getting better care. Expensive medicine may, in fact, be poor
medicine.
Alvin E. Toda - 15 Jun 2007 00:51 GMT
>> http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3274963&page=1
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> getting better care. Expensive medicine may, in fact,
> be poor medicine.

Surprising result. But this is a paradox. It seems like
with more expensive tools available, doctors are doing
a poor job of using them.
Jerry Okamura - 14 Jun 2007 15:44 GMT
It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system is
the solution to the problem.  The simple fact is, that a third party payment
system, like any other system has its advantages and disadvantages.  And I
would argue the third party payment system has a very big disavantage.  That
being, they have no effective way to control price inflation.  And if you
have no effective way to control price inflation, that means that what cost
$1 yesterday, will cost more than $1 tomorrow.  That since the cost rises
faster than the rate of increase of the economy, or has an inflation rate
that is rising faster than the overall inflation rate, that means that
someone is going to have to figure out how to pay for that increase, or
resort to rationing what they are willing to give you for nothing.....

In other words, there are no free lunches.

> http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3274963&page=1
Dan - 14 Jun 2007 22:20 GMT
> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system
> is the solution to the problem.  The simple fact is, that a third party
> payment system, like any other system has its advantages and
> disadvantages.  And I would argue the third party payment system has a
> very big disadvantage.  

> That being, they have no effective way to control
> price inflation.  And if you have no effective way to control price
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> In other words, there are no free lunches.

Great post.

Now, explain how that is different from the system we have today...

Dan
Jerry Okamura - 14 Jun 2007 23:24 GMT
>> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system
>> is the solution to the problem.  The simple fact is, that a third party
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Now, explain how that is different from the system we have today...

Our system today is a third party payment system, it is not as universal as
some other countries, but it is a third party payment system.  My definition
of a third party system is a system where the user of the service is not the
one paying for the service, someone else is paying for most if not all of
the cost of the service a person receives.  It is not a third party payment
system, when the user of the service is the one paying for the service.
Dan - 15 Jun 2007 17:20 GMT
>>> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment
>>> system is the solution to the problem.  The simple fact is, that a
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> not a third party payment system, when the user of the service is the
> one paying for the service.

That part is different.

I separated out the part I was referring to as of questionable
difference: the system we have TODAY is inflationary, with no way to
control price inflation, increases [much] faster than the rate of
increase of the economy, and rising faster than the overall inflation
rate [which, itself, is highly understated in official pronouncements].
 Yet, you do not claim we "have to figure out how to pay for that
increase, or resort to rationing what they are willing to give you for
nothing..."

Mea Culpa.  Sorry for the confusion.

Dan
Jerry Okamura - 15 Jun 2007 17:13 GMT
>>>> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system
>>>> is the solution to the problem.  The simple fact is, that a third party
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Mea Culpa.  Sorry for the confusion.

No.  I stated, and the data supports my point, that medical inflation is
outpacing the overall inflation rate, anywhere in the world that has moved
to a third party payment system.  That, since in a third party payment
system, someone has to figure out how to pay for the increase, there is only
one way to pay for that increase, collect more money from someone.
Curly Surmudgeon - 15 Jun 2007 06:35 GMT
> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system is
> the solution to the problem.  The simple fact is, that a third party payment
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> In other words, there are no free lunches.

Very true, for instance morbidly obese people wanting medical treatment
for fat-induced problems.  Why should lifestyle side effects run up the
cost for others?

Even so the health care system has been hijacked by predatory, malicious,
corporations that make it impossible to obtain medical treatment wihtout
their insurance.  For that I support MM, bring down the corrupt healthcare
system that his administration represents.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                   http://thegreen.stanleylieber.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Okamura - 15 Jun 2007 17:27 GMT
>> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system
>> is
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> for fat-induced problems.  Why should lifestyle side effects run up the
> cost for others?

I think of your argument as one of those circular arguments.  First we say,
we should pay for everyones medical needs, then because we do pay for
everyones medical care needs, we then turn around and ask, why should we we
pay for somehting that increases the cost to us, when we are the ones that
have said we want to pay for it.

> Even so the health care system has been hijacked by predatory, malicious,
> corporations that make it impossible to obtain medical treatment wihtout
> their insurance.  For that I support MM, bring down the corrupt healthcare
> system that his administration represents.

It odes not make any difference.  What matters is the simple fact that the
cost of the benefit is exploding, and someone is going to pay for that
increase.
Curly Surmudgeon - 18 Jun 2007 05:41 GMT
>>> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system
>>> is
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> pay for somehting that increases the cost to us, when we are the ones that
> have said we want to pay for it.

I don't see how you get that out of my statements, you're making an
erroneous assumption I believe.  I do not support national or subsidized
health care in any form.  I am adamantly opposed to government control.  I
am also opposed to corporate monopolies who have hijacked our health
providers.

>> Even so the health care system has been hijacked by predatory,
>> malicious, corporations that make it impossible to obtain medical
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the cost of the benefit is exploding, and someone is going to pay for
> that increase.

Or not.  Let's stop paying for health insurance, stop mandating that
employers pay the monopolies under threat of imprisonment.  Current
governmetnal actions are coersive, theft in fact.  When people must pay
directly and corporate greed refused to provide then maybe a guillotine
would return rational pricing so we can afford our own healthcare.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                   http://thegreen.stanleylieber.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Okamura - 18 Jun 2007 19:05 GMT
>>>> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system
>>>> is
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> am also opposed to corporate monopolies who have hijacked our health
> providers.

Because, if a fat person is paying his own way, that we should not be as
concerned whether that person is fat.

>>> Even so the health care system has been hijacked by predatory,
>>> malicious, corporations that make it impossible to obtain medical
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> directly and corporate greed refused to provide then maybe a guillotine
> would return rational pricing so we can afford our own healthcare.

Still does not address the root cause of the problem....
George Conklin - 18 Jun 2007 22:22 GMT
> >>>> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system
> >>>> is
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> >
> Still does not address the root cause of the problem....

EVERYONE pays too much for our medical care in the USA.  As PA has shown,
some people get a heart bypass operation for $20,000 and others pay $100,000
for the SAME THING with identical results.  Nationally we pay twice what we
should for everything.
Jerry Okamura - 19 Jun 2007 16:27 GMT
>> >>>> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment
> system
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> we
> should for everything.

But, "why" does someone pay $20,000 and someone else pays $100,000?
Besides, did they actually pay, or did someone pay the tab for them?
Curly Surmudgeon - 19 Jun 2007 22:12 GMT
--------snip------
>> EVERYONE pays too much for our medical care in the USA.  As PA has
>> shown, some people get a heart bypass operation for $20,000 and others
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> But, "why" does someone pay $20,000 and someone else pays $100,000?
> Besides, did they actually pay, or did someone pay the tab for them?

And that is the basis of the problem.  With any subsidized health care
people relinquish responsibility for costs which allows the crooks to
parlay mandatory services into usary theft.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                   http://thegreen.stanleylieber.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curly Surmudgeon - 19 Jun 2007 07:58 GMT
----snip----
>>> It odes not make any difference.  What matters is the simple fact that
>>> the cost of the benefit is exploding, and someone is going to pay for
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
> Still does not address the root cause of the problem....

That's a different thread but somewhat addressed by an immediate halt to
subsidized and mandated health care.  When the money spigot is closed
those in the medical industry will flee to greener pastures leaving
doctors and patients to make private contract.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                   http://thegreen.stanleylieber.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim May - 15 Jun 2007 07:33 GMT
> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system is
> the solution to the problem.  The simple fact is, that a third party payment
> system, like any other system has its advantages and disadvantages.  And I
> would argue the third party payment system has a very big disavantage.  That
> being, they have no effective way to control price inflation.  And if you
> have no effective way to control price inflation, that means that what cost
...pragmatic bullshit elided...

Who gives a god-damned sh.t about this kind of analysis?

Anytime I am ordered to pay for another person's health care,
regardless of this kind of analysis, a crime has been committed.

All those favoring national heatlth care should be killed, starting
with the Usual Suspects.

Forty million up in smoke would help the problems we have with niggers
and basic brown types sucking up health care while paying little or
nothing in taxes.

--Tim May
Thumper - 15 Jun 2007 11:51 GMT
>> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system is
>> the solution to the problem.  The simple fact is, that a third party payment
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Anytime I am ordered to pay for another person's health care,
>regardless of this kind of analysis, a crime has been committed.

>All those favoring national heatlth care should be killed, starting
>with the Usual Suspects.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>--Tim May

What a complete a.s hole.
Thumper
David - 15 Jun 2007 12:52 GMT
Timmy, Go out in the streets and make your same statement with a bullhorn.
If you survive, please come back and tell us what the folks thought about
your plan.

>> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system
>> is
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> --Tim May
David R - 15 Jun 2007 15:17 GMT
> Who gives a god-damned sh.t about this kind of analysis?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> --Tim May

keep it up gomer, you losing failures are doing " a heckuva job" brownies
showing america what bush,cheney and the rest of the goobers really stand
for

hell yall makin it easy for us liberals to outlaw yer ignorant, hillbilly
a.ses
Jerry Okamura - 15 Jun 2007 17:31 GMT
>> It is also immoral to fool the people that a third party payment system
>> is
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> and basic brown types sucking up health care while paying little or
> nothing in taxes.

What happens when you have no effective way to control the increase in cost,
is you either have to figure out a way to pay for the increase (meaning
someone is going to have to pay), or you resort to some form of rationing.
In either event, it will not work, because you are not addressing the reason
why prices are increasing.  As a result, you will have to continue figuring
out a way to pay for that increase in cost.  The only way out of that box,
is to reduce the cost of the care, which is like going to Las Vegas and
playing betting on craps.  In the long run, it is a losing proposition.
Patient@medical.tv - 15 Jun 2007 15:40 GMT
In misc.survivalism Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> And if you
> have no effective way to control price inflation, that means that what cost
> $1 yesterday, will cost more than $1 tomorrow.  

That is good.  Doctors are paid way too little.  Many doctors can no
longer afford to practice, because of the lawyers.  We need to increase
Doctor's pay in order to be in good health.
Balanced View - 15 Jun 2007 16:54 GMT
> In misc.survivalism Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Doctor's pay in order to be in good health.
>  
Doctors have nothing to do with good health, that's largely up to you.
Lay off the twinkies, get off the couch etc.......
Jerry Okamura - 15 Jun 2007 17:32 GMT
> In misc.survivalism Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> longer afford to practice, because of the lawyers.  We need to increase
> Doctor's pay in order to be in good health.

Doctors only are only one small part of the total cost of medical care.....
Patient@medical.tv - 15 Jun 2007 22:13 GMT
In misc.survivalism Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> > In misc.survivalism Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > longer afford to practice, because of the lawyers.  We need to increase
> > Doctor's pay in order to be in good health.

> Doctors only are only one small part of the total cost of medical care.....

That is wht I said.  They need to be paid a lot more, and since they are
only one small part, it will not increase any costs.

The real problem is the Tort Lawyers!  They are the reason that medical
costs are going way, way up!
Thumper - 15 Jun 2007 22:21 GMT
>In misc.survivalism Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>The real problem is the Tort Lawyers!  They are the reason that medical
>costs are going way, way up!

That's bullshit.  It's the medical profession's unwillingness to
police their own plus the insurance companies willingness to settle
most cases.  They just raise the premiums to cover the settlements.
Thumper
Patient@medical.tv - 15 Jun 2007 22:38 GMT
In misc.survivalism Thumper <jaylsmith@comcast.net> wrote:

> >In misc.survivalism Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> >The real problem is the Tort Lawyers!  They are the reason that medical
> >costs are going way, way up!

> That's bullshit.  It's the medical profession's unwillingness to
> police their own plus the insurance companies willingness to settle
> most cases.  They just raise the premiums to cover the settlements.

That is right.  And who pays those premiums?  The poor DOCTORS, that's
who.  Doctors are our friends.  They keep us healthy.  They need more
money. The lawyers are bleeding them dry!
Thumper - 16 Jun 2007 00:50 GMT
>In misc.survivalism Thumper <jaylsmith@comcast.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>who.  Doctors are our friends.  They keep us healthy.  They need more
>money. The lawyers are bleeding them dry!

No the INSURANCE COMPANIES are bleeding them dry.

Read  the following and educate yourself.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/036480.html

http://www.thecre.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1754.html

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/06/01/rising_doctors_premiums
_not_due_to_lawsuit_awards/


Thumper
Evelyn Ruut - 16 Jun 2007 12:37 GMT
> In misc.survivalism Thumper <jaylsmith@comcast.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> who.  Doctors are our friends.  They keep us healthy.  They need more
> money. The lawyers are bleeding them dry!

Doctors already make more money in this country (USA) than anyplace else.
It is their own failure to police their own that causes the high malpractice
insurance.
Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn

Jerry Okamura - 16 Jun 2007 16:53 GMT
>> In misc.survivalism Thumper <jaylsmith@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> It is their own failure to police their own that causes the high
> malpractice insurance.

It is all relative....they used to make a whole lot more money.....
EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com - 16 Jun 2007 23:38 GMT
In misc.survivalism Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> It is all relative....they used to make a whole lot more money.....

That's exactly right.  Doctors need to get paid MUCH more money, so that
they can afford to practice.  Doctors are going out of business all over
this country.
hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com - 17 Jun 2007 02:00 GMT
On Jun 16, 7:38 pm, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> In misc.survivalism Jerry Okamura <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> they can afford to practice.  Doctors are going out of business all over
> this country.

And Indian, Chinese and Pakistani doctors are replacing them.
hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com - 16 Jun 2007 17:02 GMT
> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
> > In misc.survivalism Thumper <jaylsm...@comcast.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Evelyn-

That and ambulance chasers like John Edwards.  Your insurance premiums
paid for his $400 hair cuts.
David R - 16 Jun 2007 18:03 GMT
>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
>> > In misc.survivalism Thumper <jaylsm...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> That and ambulance chasers like John Edwards.  Your insurance premiums
> paid for his $400 hair cuts.

I thought I told you and the other losing,failing, hillbilly fuckups to shut
up?

you know nothing, like most stupid rednecks loud mouths

27% of malpractice suits go in favor of the plaintiff,
the medical provider wins 73% of the time,

I thought I'd better give you that number too, being a hillbilly,
and an especially ignorant one you would not have been able to subtract 27
from 100
Jerry Okamura - 16 Jun 2007 16:54 GMT
>>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> 27% of malpractice suits go in favor of the plaintiff,
> the medical provider wins 73% of the time,

Which means what?
hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com - 16 Jun 2007 21:27 GMT
On Jun 16, 12:54 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:

> > <hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1182009744.136018.20300@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Which means what?

Jerry, if you played the lottery, your odds of winning are about 1 in
10 million.

If you claim a medical injury, your chances of winning the medical
lottery are 23 in 100.

That's what David R meant.
Jerry Okamura - 16 Jun 2007 22:11 GMT
> On Jun 16, 12:54 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> That's what David R meant.

The odds in winning a lottery as basically set by simple mathmatics.  The
odds of winning the medical lottery is highly dependent on how good a case
you have when you sue someone.  In other workds, comparing apples to
oranges.
Thumper - 16 Jun 2007 23:34 GMT
>On Jun 16, 12:54 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>If you claim a medical injury, your chances of winning the medical
>lottery are 23 in 100.

Apples and oranges.

One should be able to win every case in which you are a victim of
medical malpractice.

Thumper
>That's what David R meant.
hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com - 17 Jun 2007 01:51 GMT
> On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:27:19 -0700, hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Thumper

True enough.  But people shouldn't expect to live forever, either.
David R - 17 Jun 2007 06:27 GMT
> On Jun 16, 12:54 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> That's what David R meant.

the lottery costs $1

a medical malpractice suit costs far more, and the average judgment is a
tiny fraction of the lottery payout,
I doubt that any more than a tiny percentage of malpractice suits are not
legitimate
David R - 17 Jun 2007 06:25 GMT
>> 27% of malpractice suits go in favor of the plaintiff,
>> the medical provider wins 73% of the time,
>
> Which means what?

there isn't a whole lot of point in going after a medical provider, the
Lawyers know
what the odds are, so the case has to be very good

also the multimillion dollar judgments are usually reduced

so the whole malpractice argument is a red herring

the numbers above are not completely correct,

medical professionals reviewed malpractice suits,

only 27 % of the ones they thought should be decided in favor of the
plaintiff actually were
hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com - 17 Jun 2007 15:32 GMT
> >> 27% of malpractice suits go in favor of the plaintiff,
> >> the medical provider wins 73% of the time,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> only 27 % of the ones they thought should be decided in favor of the
> plaintiff actually were

So John Edwards and his Association of Trial Lawyers is really,
really, really letting people down?
Jerry Okamura - 17 Jun 2007 20:32 GMT
>>> 27% of malpractice suits go in favor of the plaintiff,
>>> the medical provider wins 73% of the time,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Lawyers know
> what the odds are, so the case has to be very good

That is seems to me depends on whether the lawyer is betting on the come, or
the lawyer is not betting on the come.  If he is betting on the come, then
the question becomes not whether he has a very strong case, or he does not,
but whether he can still make money, which is after all what the lawyer is
in business to do.  I would also guess that he does not necessarily HAVE to
have a good case, he can be shooting for a settlement, which does happen
from time to time, where the person being sued, feels it is better to
settle, than to take the risk of losing (which says nothing about who is
right or who is wrong).

> also the multimillion dollar judgments are usually reduced
>
> so the whole malpractice argument is a red herring

Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a result of
malpractice suits.  I know of one orthopedic surgeon whose malpractice
insurance shot up to costing him $60,000 a year.  He simple stopped doing
risky procedures.  Who was the loser?  Those who needed or wanted that
procedure to be performed on them....
David Wright - 17 Jun 2007 21:34 GMT
>Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a result of
>malpractice suits.  I know of one orthopedic surgeon whose malpractice
>insurance shot up to costing him $60,000 a year.  He simple stopped doing
>risky procedures.  Who was the loser?  Those who needed or wanted that
>procedure to be performed on them....

Malpractice premiums did what insurance premiums usually do:  they
rose and fell dramatically because of the usual behavior of insurance
companies.  To wit: first, the companies cut premiums way down to try
to get more business.  Then, when they weren't taking in enough money
to cover their costs, they raised premiums prodigiously to make up the
difference.  Happens with all kinds of insurance.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "Only George Bush could start a war for oil and not get any."
                                         -- Bill Maher
Jerry Okamura - 18 Jun 2007 00:34 GMT
>>Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a result
>>of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> to cover their costs, they raised premiums prodigiously to make up the
> difference.  Happens with all kinds of insurance.

We are not talking about any kind of insurance.  We are talking about
malpractice insurance.  Do you have any data to show that malpractice
insurance acted the way you say is the usual behavior of insurance?
Jeff McCann - 18 Jun 2007 04:02 GMT
>>>Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a result
>>>of
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> malpractice insurance.  Do you have any data to show that malpractice
> insurance acted the way you say is the usual behavior of insurance?

The number of Med-mal  suits and the size of jury verdicts have both held
steady or declined over the past decade or so.   Furthermore, many states
have gone through repeated rounds of "tort reform" that have made it
increasingly difficult to even bring such suits, limited damage awards, etc.
Premium increases do, however, tend to track the performance of bond funds
and other investments favored by insurance companies.

As for the orthopedist paying $60k in malpractice insurance, so?  That is
just a cost of doing business, and a meaningless figure in isolation.  What
was his net income, after that and other business expenses were paid?  I can
tell you that Medicaid and Medicare, along with HMOs, put more of e squeeze
on physician incomes these days than Med-mal insurance premiums do.

Jeff
Evelyn Ruut - 18 Jun 2007 12:29 GMT
>>>>Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a
>>>>result of
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Jeff

I have two lady friends who are doctors wives, deeply involved in managing
the offices.  They agree with you.

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn

Jerry Okamura - 18 Jun 2007 19:14 GMT
>>>>>Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a
>>>>>result of
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> I have two lady friends who are doctors wives, deeply involved in managing
> the offices.  They agree with you.

It does not make any difference what two people believe, it is what
many/some others think that count.  For instance, there are doctors today,
who are not spending the money for malpractice insurance at all, which
benefits their patients who is going to be charged less for the same service
they get from another doctor.  This is based on the idea that you cannot get
blood from a turnip.  The only risk of not having malpractice insurance is
that you will get sued.  But, if a lawyer sues someone, they want to have
some assurances that they will get some money to pay for their effort.  So,
these doctors are doing what smart lawyers do, they make it difficult or
impossible to collect a dime, even if you win the case.
George Conklin - 18 Jun 2007 22:24 GMT
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4676cb6b$0$4717

> It does not make any difference what two people believe, it is what
> many/some others think that count.  For instance, there are doctors today,
> who are not spending the money for malpractice insurance at all, which
> benefits their patients who is going to be charged less for the same service
> they get from another doctor.

Malpractice insurance for the medical business as a whole is LESS in terms
of percentages than we spend for our own private insurance on cars and
houses and other personal items.
Jerry Okamura - 19 Jun 2007 16:29 GMT
> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:4676cb6b$0$4717
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> of percentages than we spend for our own private insurance on cars and
> houses and other personal items.

It does not make any difference. The medical practioner is going to pass on
the cost to their customers, one way or the other.
Thumper - 18 Jun 2007 12:58 GMT
>>>>Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a result
>>>>of
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Jeff

That's true. in my state.  They keep lowering the fees paid by
medicaid and medicare and wonder why physicians are moving across
state lines.
Thumper
Robert Sturgeon - 18 Jun 2007 15:30 GMT
>>>>Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a result
>>>>of
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>Premium increases do, however, tend to track the performance of bond funds
>and other investments favored by insurance companies.

I'm sure you're right about that.  But what are the
insurance companies to do?  I suppose they could just put
the premium money in bank accounts.  Perhaps they should do
that, and reduce their exposure to market fluctuations in
their investments.  They undoubtedly have executives who
insist on maximizing their overall performance by making
such investments, which do have the potential of greater
returns, and have in fact provided higher returns in the
long run.  So far...

> As for the orthopedist paying $60k in malpractice insurance, so?  That is
>just a cost of doing business, and a meaningless figure in isolation.  What
>was his net income, after that and other business expenses were paid?

That is, of course, the "bottom line," isn't it?

>  I can
>tell you that Medicaid and Medicare, along with HMOs, put more of e squeeze
>on physician incomes these days than Med-mal insurance premiums do.

Well, we (the general public) have to somehow control the
total amount we pay for health care.  We can't just give
them ALL of our money, can we?  As it is, the %age of our
money they're getting is an ever-increasing %age, now
running at, what, 16%?  Or is it up to 17% now?  What much
should we be paying?  20%?  30%?  50%?  And besides, the
doctors I know all seem to be doing extremely well
financially compared to the average citizen.  When was the
last time a doctor you know had to buy a Ford Focus instead
of the usual Lexus or Mercedes?  Not that I mind them making
high incomes -- it's just that I don't believe they are
being terribly "squeezed" by much of anything.  Get back to
me when they start showing up in Sue's welfare office,
looking for food stamps and housing assistance.  Then I'll
worry about the squeeze on doctors' incomes.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
Sue - 18 Jun 2007 15:59 GMT
>>>>>Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a result
>>>>>of
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>looking for food stamps and housing assistance.  Then I'll
>worry about the squeeze on doctors' incomes.

Well, I had an (unsuccessful) attorney as a food stamp client once but
never a doctor.  I'm not expecting one.
Sue
hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com - 19 Jun 2007 01:30 GMT
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:30:55 -0700, Robert Sturgeon
>
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> never a doctor.  I'm not expecting one.
> Sue-

Suggest to you food-stamp attorney that he join the Edwards
Association for Trial Attorneys.
Jeff McCann - 18 Jun 2007 16:16 GMT
>>>>>Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a
>>>>>result
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> returns, and have in fact provided higher returns in the
> long run.  So far...

The return on investment of premiums is what makes the whole insurance
industry possible, at least in its present form, but some reform and
oversight is still needed.  For example, a small minority of practitioners
are responsible for the majority or lion's share of claims, but the Med Mal
carriers still don't risk-rate physicians.  There are also industry-wide
problems with management of reserve funds, speculative or imprudent
investments, retained earnings, etc.  I can see some of the problems, but
have few solutions to offer.

>> As for the orthopedist paying $60k in malpractice insurance, so?  That is
>>just a cost of doing business, and a meaningless figure in isolation.
>>What
>>was his net income, after that and other business expenses were paid?
>
> That is, of course, the "bottom line," isn't it?

Yep.  I wouldn't be objecting to a $60K insurance bill if I could net $200K
anyway.  On the other hand, if I only cleared $40K, I'd be bitching plenty,
too.

>>  I can
>>tell you that Medicaid and Medicare, along with HMOs, put more of e
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> money they're getting is an ever-increasing %age, now
> running at, what, 16%?  Or is it up to 17% now?

Last I heard was about 19%, but I don't recall the source.

> What much
> should we be paying?  20%?  30%?  50%?  And besides, the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> looking for food stamps and housing assistance.  Then I'll
> worry about the squeeze on doctors' incomes.

Private insurance, including HMOs, have something like a 20% overhead, so 20
cents out of every dollar spent on health care goes to insurance
administration and profit, instead of actual health care services (and
profit).  Surprisingly, IIRC, the Federal Medicare program's overhead is
only about a quarter of that, or about a nickel on the dollar.  Some of that
comes from economies of scale and also from pushing some of the
administrative costs back onto providers, but a lot of it is honest to
goodness efficiency.  Whoda thunk it?

As for doctor's incomes, I had a client once, in a highly valued specialty
(endocrinology) who cleared a dollar and change for 2 weeks work, between
what his managed care group charged for his share of expenses and what
little insurance and Medicare reimbursed him for his often complex,
difficult to manage cases.  I saw his paycheck.  Moreover, I know more than
a few physicians, mostly in family practice and pediatrics, who make only
low to mid five figures in a good year.  Many of these docs are working 70
hour weeks for that.  On the other hand, I still see far more Benzes than
Toyotas in the "Reserved for Physician" parking spaces at the local
hospitals.

Jeff
Robert Sturgeon - 18 Jun 2007 18:24 GMT
(snips)

>> Well, we (the general public) have to somehow control the
>> total amount we pay for health care.  We can't just give
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>administration and profit, instead of actual health care services (and
>profit).

It's the total that matters, not how it's distributed.  If
not for the cost containment efforts of the insurance
companies and HMOs (and the government), it seems likely
that we'd be paying a lot more for health care.  The fact
that providers would be getting it instead of insurance
companies wouldn't make it any easier to pay.

>  Surprisingly, IIRC, the Federal Medicare program's overhead is
>only about a quarter of that, or about a nickel on the dollar.  Some of that
>comes from economies of scale and also from pushing some of the
>administrative costs back onto providers, but a lot of it is honest to
>goodness efficiency.  Whoda thunk it?

I'm sure even some government agencies can be efficient.
But the agency you mention is also very "good" at
restricting the money going to health care providers, so in
that respect what they are doing to the providers is similar
to what the private insurers and HMOs are doing.  Whether
their overhead is higher or lower really doesn't matter to
me.  In fact, if they're saving me money overall, even if
more of it goes to them, I'm perfectly happy to pay for
their higher overhead expenses.  It's the total I pay that
matters to me -- not who gets it.

>As for doctor's incomes, I had a client once, in a highly valued specialty
>(endocrinology) who cleared a dollar and change for 2 weeks work, between
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Toyotas in the "Reserved for Physician" parking spaces at the local
>hospitals.

There is almost nothing as offensive as the notion that the
doctors should get the best parking, while the mere
customers are shunted off to the farther spots.  When I go
to the hardware store, the staff's cars (even the owner's)
are NOT parked closest to the front door in spots reserved
for them.  THEY park way off in the corner somewhere.
What's with these God-Doctors, anyway???

--
Robert Sturgeon
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
Jeff McCann - 18 Jun 2007 22:50 GMT
> (snips)
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> that providers would be getting it instead of insurance
> companies wouldn't make it any easier to pay.

Possibly, but can't effective cost containment be achieved without diverting
so much of the alleged "savings" being diverted away from anything that
actually benefits the patient?  In my actual, real-world experience, it can.
Care to guess how much time a typical family practice doc spends fighting
with insurers and jumping through their pointless hoops instead of seeing
patients, keeping current with medical advances, etc.?  That, alone, induces
a HUGE inefficiency into the "system."

>>  Surprisingly, IIRC, the Federal Medicare program's overhead is
>>only about a quarter of that, or about a nickel on the dollar.  Some of
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> their higher overhead expenses.  It's the total I pay that
> matters to me -- not who gets it.

But who gets the money does matter.  Managed care, as practiced by some HMOs
and insurers, is little more than denial of care.  True managed care can
both save costs AND improve the quality and efficiency of care, but is often
not what is done, at least not by private insurers and HMOs.  Most
healthcare and Med Mal attorneys have collected multiple horror stories
about arbitrary and nonsensical abuses by HMOs and private insurers, but the
general public seldom hears them, because employer-paid benefit providers,
which is what almost all HMOs are, are completely exempt from med-mal suits
under ERISA and are further shielded by various other laws.  The amount the
taxpayers and the private sector are willing to pay for healthcare coverage
is elastic, but not unlimited.  I'd be fine with a 20% profit if it could be
shown that it was only a portion of savings realized by improved resource
management and efficiency, but that's not the case.  Its often just a
diversion of money meant for health care into someone else's pocket without
adding any equivalent gain for either me or my healthcare providers.

This is a gross oversimplification of an incredibly complex situation, but
the healthcare industry has been forced to tighten it's belt, so to speak,
while HMOs and insurers have not.  Costs to consumers and taxpayers continue
to spiral into the stratosphere, while the quality, availability and
accessibility of healthcare are either static or even declining.  So where
is that money going?  Part of it goes to the fact that there's simply more
healthcare to be bought ($2000 MRIs v. $200 X-rays, $5 a pill SSRIs v. $1 a
dozen tricyclics, etc.), but part of it is pure profit extracted from what
is the antithesis of a free and open market by rent-seeking HMOs and
insurers.  Are you aware that the Federal government now pays MORE for HMOs
to "manage" its Medicare clients than it costs to just let the existing
bureaucracy handle it?  Do you know what "capitation" is, and how it
influences the decisions your doctor makes about your health care?

>>As for doctor's incomes, I had a client once, in a highly valued specialty
>>(endocrinology) who cleared a dollar and change for 2 weeks work, between
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> for them.  THEY park way off in the corner somewhere.
> What's with these God-Doctors, anyway???

Physicians are revenue centers for hospitals, and hospital administrators
have good business reasons to offer, especially, non-financial perks to
physicians.  Occasionally, there are legitimate medical reasons such as
getting on-call physicians into the hospital quickly.  If I bring in your
head-injured kid to the ER, you are gonna want that neurosurgeon in to see
him ASAP.  Medicine is one of the few places were, just occasionally,
seconds can mean the difference between life and death.  But that's rare.
Mainly it's just a customary perk for the folks that bring in the bucks.
Heck, even I take the prime parking space at my office.

But what's up with the hospital you use?  All the hospitals in Pensacola
offer free, no-tipping valet service for every visitor.  They also have
people running those golf cart shuttles through the parking lots to give
both visitors and staff a ride to the door, especially in inclement weather.
Good customer service a thing of the past around Los Banos?

Jeff
Robert Sturgeon - 19 Jun 2007 16:01 GMT
>> (snips)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>so much of the alleged "savings" being diverted away from anything that
>actually benefits the patient?

I doubt it.

>  In my actual, real-world experience, it can.
>Care to guess how much time a typical family practice doc spends fighting
>with insurers and jumping through their pointless hoops instead of seeing
>patients, keeping current with medical advances, etc.?  That, alone, induces
>a HUGE inefficiency into the "system."

Yes, I'm sure they would be much happier simply charging
whatever they want, without any third party able to rein
them in.  I recently did some business with the health care
industry in Fresno.  Their original bills came to about
$20,000.  After the HMO did their magic, the HMO paid about
$9,000 and I paid about $1,000.  Without the HMO, I would
have had to try to get my bill reduced on my own.  Somehow,
I don't think I would have been as successful...

>>>  Surprisingly, IIRC, the Federal Medicare program's overhead is
>>>only about a quarter of that, or about a nickel on the dollar.  Some of
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>But who gets the money does matter.  Managed care, as practiced by some HMOs
>and insurers, is little more than denial of care.

Any cost containment program is going to include denial of
care.  There's no way around that.  Those socialized
medicine panaceas (pun intended) like they have in Canada
and the U.K. certainly have quite a bit more denial of care
than our system does -- except for the uninsured, of course.
It seems to me that getting as many people as possible
insured is the key.  And no -- I don't know how to do that,
either.

>  True managed care can
>both save costs AND improve the quality and efficiency of care, but is often
>not what is done, at least not by private insurers and HMOs.

When the government takes it all over, it will be worse.

>  Most
>healthcare and Med Mal attorneys have collected multiple horror stories
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>diversion of money meant for health care into someone else's pocket without
>adding any equivalent gain for either me or my healthcare providers.

I doubt that, too.  Anyway, I don't spend a lot of time
worrying about the well-being of an industry that has such
huge increases in revenue.  Who else would have the nerve to
charge $10 (or whatever it is nowadays) for an aspirin pill?

>This is a gross oversimplification of an incredibly complex situation, but
>the healthcare industry has been forced to tighten it's belt, so to speak,

Good.

>while HMOs and insurers have not.

They're protecting me from the billing excesses of the
health care industry, so I don't WANT them to get less
money.  I want them to prosper, so they can continue
protecting me.

>  Costs to consumers and taxpayers continue
>to spiral into the stratosphere, while the quality, availability and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>bureaucracy handle it?  Do you know what "capitation" is, and how it
>influences the decisions your doctor makes about your health care?

I don't think we'll ever see the problem the same way, so...
nevermind.

>>>As for doctor's incomes, I had a client once, in a highly valued specialty
>>>(endocrinology) who cleared a dollar and change for 2 weeks work, between
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>seconds can mean the difference between life and death.  But that's rare.
>Mainly it's just a customary perk for the folks that bring in the bucks.

And I thought it was the customers who brought in the money.
Silly me.

>Heck, even I take the prime parking space at my office.

Must not be a place where they sell something.

>But what's up with the hospital you use?  All the hospitals in Pensacola
>offer free, no-tipping valet service for every visitor.  They also have
>people running those golf cart shuttles through the parking lots to give
>both visitors and staff a ride to the door, especially in inclement weather.
>Good customer service a thing of the past around Los Banos?

St. Agnes in Fresno (seems to be a VERY good hospital) has
valet parking.  Los Banos?  Surely you jest.  No one uses
that hospital if they can possibly help it.  You could die
in the emergency waiting room, and they wouldn't notice
until the smell got bad enough.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
Jeff McCann - 19 Jun 2007 17:26 GMT
>>> (snips)
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> have had to try to get my bill reduced on my own.  Somehow,
> I don't think I would have been as successful...

You might be surprised.  The "private pay" amount is hugely inflated to
offset noncollectables and indigent care, but private individuals can
negotiate for large reductions in that amount, especially if they have the
resources to pay the full negotiated amount immediately.

>>>>  Surprisingly, IIRC, the Federal Medicare program's overhead is
>>>>only about a quarter of that, or about a nickel on the dollar.  Some of
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Any cost containment program is going to include denial of
> care.  There's no way around that.

Managed care, done correctly, is more than denial of care.  For example, it
can include increased services to prevent and manage chronic conditions that
have the potential for causing huge expenses down the road.

> Those socialized
> medicine panaceas (pun intended) like they have in Canada
> and the U.K. certainly have quite a bit more denial of care
> than our system does -- except for the uninsured, of course.

Such systems are a boon to those with little to no access to care otherwise,
but will be less satisfactory to those who already enjoy good access to
premiere medical care available to the well insured or wealthy.

> It seems to me that getting as many people as possible
> insured is the key.  And no -- I don't know how to do that,
> either.

The 50 million or so without insurance tend to consume the most expensive
form of care, i.e., emergency care, often for easily managed chronic
conditions that have deteriorated into an acute emergency due to a lack of
preventative and routine medical care.  Fixing that would result in
significant savings overall.

>>  True managed care can
>>both save costs AND improve the quality and efficiency of care, but is
[quoted text clipped - 109 lines]
> in the emergency waiting room, and they wouldn't notice
> until the smell got bad enough.

Jeff
Thumper - 19 Jun 2007 19:40 GMT
>Such systems are a boon to those with little to no access to care otherwise,
>but will be less satisfactory to those who already enjoy good access to
>premiere medical care available to the well insured or wealthy.

True, but there are those of us that still have premium medical care
that can see the writing on the wall.  Premium plans, especially those
through an employer are dying a slow death.  I prefer to get the whole
nations health care in order BEFORE my premium plan ceases to exist.
Thumper
Evelyn Ruut - 19 Jun 2007 20:42 GMT
>>Such systems are a boon to those with little to no access to care
>>otherwise,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> nations health care in order BEFORE my premium plan ceases to exist.
> Thumper

Yes, that's what I have been saying too.   People say they don't want
universal health care, but they don't realize the system is doing exactly
that now, but through a roundabout way.   They are charging huge amounts to
those who can pay or who have insurance, in order to justify the no-payers.
They manage to treat everybody, it is just that those of us with insurance
are doing all the paying.   I would rather see something more honest, more
upfront than that.   Non profit, and administered by the gov't. if at all
possible.

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn

Jerry Okamura - 18 Jun 2007 19:07 GMT
>>>>Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a
>>>>result of
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> squeeze on physician incomes these days than Med-mal insurance premiums
> do.

The "so", is that he stopped performing any surgeries that he considered
risky, which resulted in his lowering his malpractice insurance cost.
EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com - 18 Jun 2007 12:02 GMT
In misc.survivalism Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> We are not talking about any kind of insurance.  We are talking about
> malpractice insurance.  Do you have any data to show that malpractice
> insurance acted the way you say is the usual behavior of insurance?

This is not a good, complete answer for you, and I could be
misremembering, but I remember hearing that the big runup in malpractice
premiums was due to failed inestments by the insurance companies in tech
stocks at the turn of the century.

Signature

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
    -- Bertrand Russel

Thumper - 18 Jun 2007 01:59 GMT
>>Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a result of
>>malpractice suits.  I know of one orthopedic surgeon whose malpractice
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>to cover their costs, they raised premiums prodigiously to make up the
>difference.  Happens with all kinds of insurance.

Yes, but actually they raise premiums when the stock market takes a
dive because they are losing money on their investments.  Premiums
have remained relatively flat lately.  
Thumper
>  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
>     These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
>     "Only George Bush could start a war for oil and not get any."
>                                          -- Bill Maher
Patient@Medical.tv - 17 Jun 2007 23:13 GMT
In misc.survivalism Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> Tell that to the medical practioner, whose insurannce shot up as a result of
> malpractice suits.  I know of one orthopedic surgeon whose malpractice
> insurance shot up to costing him $60,000 a year.  He simple stopped doing
> risky procedures.  Who was the loser?  Those who needed or wanted that
> procedure to be performed on them....

See?  THis is what I am saying!

The Doctors need to get paid a LOT more money.  They only make around
$400k, which is chump change in today's world.  The rich lawyers are
ruining all of us!
hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com - 16 Jun 2007 21:25 GMT
> <hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I thought I told you and the other losing,failing, hillbilly fuckups to shut
> up?

I thought I told you to kma?

> you know nothing, like most stupid rednecks loud mouths

I'm not a hillbilly, I'm not a redneck, and I'm not a fuckup.  If this
were baseball, you'd be "OUT."  Would you like to try again?

> 27% of malpractice suits go in favor of the plaintiff,
> the medical provider wins 73% of the time,

If only the lottery paid off that well....

>  I thought I'd better give you that number too, being a hillbilly,
> and an especially ignorant one you would not have been able to subtract 27
> from 100

Wow!  You've mastered 5th grade math.  Does that mean you can pay $400
for a haircut?
David R - 17 Jun 2007 06:58 GMT
>> <hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
> I thought I told you to kma?

that would be the part between the ears right gomer ?
hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com - 17 Jun 2007 15:33 GMT
> <hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> that would be the part between the ears right gomer ?

That's gay!
David R - 17 Jun 2007 07:01 GMT
>> <hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I'm not a hillbilly, I'm not a redneck, and I'm not a fuckup.  If this
> were baseball, you'd be "OUT."  Would you like to try again?

of course you are,normal human beings are not losing, failing, ignorant
supporters
of hillbilly fuckups,

if the goober fits, just stick the straw in your mouth, pull up your
coveralls,
find some shoes 3 sizes too big and go run your stupid mouth,

oops, watch the NASCAR hillbillies on the TV too
David R - 17 Jun 2007 07:02 GMT
>> <hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
> If only the lottery paid off that well....
you might be able to move out of that trailer park ?

I'll give yall a secret there gomer, run out in front of a car and sue the
insurance company

it's an old hillbilly trick
David R - 17 Jun 2007 07:04 GMT
>> <hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Wow!  You've mastered 5th grade math.  Does that mean you can pay $400
> for a haircut?

$400 for a haircut ??

hell, no I look good haircut or not,

I would give the $400 to the homeless shelter to " support"
the veterans you goobers have used up and thrown out on the street
David R - 17 Jun 2007 07:05 GMT
>> <hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> >> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
>> >> > In misc.survivalism Thumper <jaylsm...@comcast.net> wrote:

give it up gomer, you're an amateur and I have no time for useless goobers,
you're no match for me, go get some experience and come back once you
have a clue
Evelyn Ruut - 16 Jun 2007 18:18 GMT
>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> That and ambulance chasers like John Edwards.  Your insurance premiums
> paid for his $400 hair cuts.

I suppose if you were running for the presidency, you might be pursuaded to
stop using the mixing bowl and the tin scissors for yours?  :-)

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn

Jerry Okamura - 16 Jun 2007 16:58 GMT
>>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> I suppose if you were running for the presidency, you might be pursuaded
> to stop using the mixing bowl and the tin scissors for yours?  :-)

Super Cuts, charges a whole lot less for a haircut, and that is the place
that Joe Sixpack is more likely to go to get a haircut.   And no one can say
that the haircut that you get from a Super Cuts, is that much worse than the
place the charged $400 for a hair cut.  As for cutting your own hair, that
is what I do....haven't been to a barber in years, and the most important
opinion about that is my wife, who thinks I do a pretty good job of keeping
my hair trimmed......
hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com - 16 Jun 2007 21:48 GMT
On Jun 16, 12:58 pm, "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com>
wrote:

> > <hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1182009744.136018.20300@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
> opinion about that is my wife, who thinks I do a pretty good job of keeping
> my hair trimmed......

I'm certainly not anti-haircut - I leave that to the hippies.

I found out while visiting my wife's relatives that her grandfather on
her father's side was a barber.  Strange coincidence because my
grandfather on my father's side was a barber also.  I hope to inherit
his strop and razors one day.

And I've "buzzed" my own hair much like my dad did to me and my
brother when we were kids, but I prefer the barber take care of it
(no, not a friggin men's hair stylist).
Evelyn Ruut - 17 Jun 2007 19:27 GMT
>>>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>>>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
> important opinion about that is my wife, who thinks I do a pretty good job
> of keeping my hair trimmed......

I cut my husbands hair for many years now, and I do a fantastic job.   We
have been all over trying this shop and that, and nobody does as good a job
as I do.

But I certainly don't care who spends what for their haircuts..... on either
side of the political divide.

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn

Nate Dewey - 17 Jun 2007 20:28 GMT
>>>>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>>>>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>But I certainly don't care who spends what for their haircuts..... on either
>side of the political divide.

You've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a sh.t
what you think.
Evelyn Ruut - 17 Jun 2007 22:18 GMT
>>>>>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>>>>>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
> You've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a sh.t
> what you think.

You've obviously mistaken me for someone you thought was talking to you.....

Signature

Best Regards,

Evelyn

Jerry Okamura - 18 Jun 2007 00:36 GMT
>>>>>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>>>>>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
> You've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a sh.t
> what you think.

So, then it is okay to say we don't give a sh.t what you think?
Jerry Okamura - 17 Jun 2007 20:34 GMT
>>>>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>>>>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> But I certainly don't care who spends what for their haircuts..... on
> either side of the political divide.

It just sends the wrong message, and after all, that is what any election is
partly about.
Thumper - 18 Jun 2007 01:57 GMT
>>>>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>>>>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>But I certainly don't care who spends what for their haircuts..... on either
>side of the political divide.

Thank you Evelyn.  It's just the kind of non-issue that the
republicans like to bring up rather than defend their failed policies.
This is only the beginning.  Remember last election when they claimed
John Kerry "looked French?"
Thumper
sordoâ„¢@mini-tru.org - 16 Jun 2007 18:55 GMT
>>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>I suppose if you were running for the presidency, you might be pursuaded to
>stop using the mixing bowl and the tin scissors for yours?  :-)

Google on "Breck Girl", his official nym.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/b/6/edwards_breckgirls.jpg
David R - 17 Jun 2007 06:39 GMT
<sordoT@mini-tru.org> wrote in message
news:5dimgsF34vu5sU2@mid.individual.net...

> Google on "Breck Girl", his official nym.

made up by limbaugh the boil on the a.s of America, your hero ?,

a fat, loud mouthed, drug smuggler and addict

a war and draft evading gutless coward with a big mouth

the conservatives will absolutely not face the fact, admit, or even
entertain the idea
that the blimpo is gay,it wasn't the boil on the a.s that kept him out of
Vietnam,
I would love to see the AAFEES paperwork on the goober

he paid off his 1st wife so she wouldn't go public with the fact, and
like Michael Jackson he pays some bimbo to make him look hetero
every now and then,

fine with me, but the low life scum denigrates women, (Pull out now, she
wasn't talking about Iraq, yuck,yuck),
blacks ( the justice brothers, and the magic negro), Hispanics ( Jose can
you see), and gays ( Edwards and the pirates booty),
and then the piece of sh.t calls himself a Christian, with talent on loan
from God,

and you lowlifes worship it,

I've got news for you goobers, you need to listen to him more closely,
because he's scamming you
low intellect goobers, he even ridicules the callers on his side, Like :

another dumb hillbilly, easy prey, let me see if I can get the goober to
cough up
for the limbaugh letter, or $49.50 to adopt a soldier in Iraq

damn you hillbillies are stupid
Thumper - 16 Jun 2007 19:40 GMT
>>> <Pati...@medical.tv> wrote in
>>> messagenews:f4v0su$ltr$7@reader2.panix.com...
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>I suppose if you were running for the presidency, you might be pursuaded to
>stop using the mixing bowl and the tin scissors for yours?  :-)

Actually the $400 was for 2 haircuts.  This is not out of line at all
for people in the public eye.

Thumper
hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com - 16 Jun 2007 21:43 GMT
> On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:18:37 -0400, "Evelyn Ruut"
>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>
> Actually the $400 was for 2 haircuts.  

Actually, two such haircuts is $800.

> This is not out of line at all for people in the public eye.

People in the "public eye" need to get over themselves.