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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / May 2007

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Any relief for migraines?

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ellie.blunt - 21 May 2007 15:43 GMT
Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?

Ellie
http://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com
The One True Zhen Jue - 21 May 2007 19:57 GMT
> Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> Elliehttp://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com

Yes, Acupuncture & Chinese Herbs.
ellie.blunt - 22 May 2007 17:34 GMT
On May 21, 2:57 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> > Elliehttp://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com
>
> Yes, Acupuncture & Chinese Herbs.

thanks!  knowing little about Chinese herbs, where would one start?
Also, I've heard great things about Acupuncture, but have yet to try
it.  I've recently heard about Acupuncture using low electrical
voltage.  Any thoughts on this?

Ellie
http://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com
ellie.blunt - 22 May 2007 18:47 GMT
On May 21, 2:57 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> > Elliehttp://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com
>
> Yes, Acupuncture & Chinese Herbs.

Thanks.  Not knowing much about Chinese Herbs, where would one start?
Nero - 22 May 2007 19:08 GMT
On May 21, 11:57 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> > Elliehttp://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com
>
> Yes, Acupuncture & Chinese Herbs.

Acupuncture does not work; it is based on the manipulation of a
substance called "chi" that does not exist.
David - 22 May 2007 20:14 GMT
> On May 21, 11:57 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> effective?
> Please respond soon, thank you.
Nero - 23 May 2007 06:19 GMT
> Nero, please tell us about your experiences with Acupuncture.
> Also please tell us about your extensive research on this.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> effective?
> Please respond soon, thank you.

Hi David. No one has experience with acupuncture, because there's no
such
thing. "Acupuncture" is defined as manipulation of "chi" for well-
being.
But since "chi" does not exist (it's not even well defined), it cannot
be manipulated. Therefore, acupuncture cannot take place. Stimulation
by needles, however, might have some effects on the nervous system,
but
that's a far cry from the amazing claims made by "acupuncturists."
Hope I answered your question!
David - 23 May 2007 12:54 GMT
>> Nero, please tell us about your experiences with Acupuncture.
>> Also please tell us about your extensive research on this.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> to the world like you have.
> Oh! your screen name speaks for you.............................
JohnDoe - 23 May 2007 13:44 GMT
>>>Nero, please tell us about your experiences with Acupuncture.
>>>Also please tell us about your extensive research on this.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>to the world like you have.
>Oh! your screen name speaks for you.............................

Tell us again david:
1) Is jumping of a cliff a good or a bad idea?
2) What is your experience with jumping of cliffs? (note: only
*personal* experience counts)
3) What research have you done concerning jumping of cliffs?
4) Why haven't you still figured out how to properly quote a post?
5) And do tell us again why you drink your own urine? Please.

And I wonder what sickness drives you? No, actually, I don't. I know.
But I still wonder *why* you hate people so much that you want all of
them to use totally worthless alternative crap in stead of things that
actually work.
David - 23 May 2007 15:29 GMT
>>>>Nero, please tell us about your experiences with Acupuncture.
>>>>Also please tell us about your extensive research on this.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> later.
> Thank you.
Nero - 23 May 2007 17:53 GMT
> Oh yes, you have answered very clearly.
> You have NO experience,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to the world like you have.
> Oh! your screen name speaks for you.............................

Strong words! But do try and figure out the quoting thing!
Do you have a different definition of acupuncture than mine?
If not, what then is "chi?"
Thanks!
Nero - 23 May 2007 17:53 GMT
> Oh yes, you have answered very clearly.
> You have NO experience,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to the world like you have.
> Oh! your screen name speaks for you.............................

Strong words! But do try and figure out the quoting thing!
Do you have a different definition of acupuncture than mine?
If not, what then is "chi?"
Thanks!
Nero - 23 May 2007 17:59 GMT
> Oh yes, you have answered very clearly.
> You have NO experience,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to the world like you have.
> Oh! your screen name speaks for you.............................

Strong words! But do try and figure out the quoting thing!
Do you have a different definition of acupuncture than mine?
If not, what then is "chi?"
Thanks!
Nero - 23 May 2007 18:02 GMT
> Oh yes, you have answered very clearly.
> You have NO experience,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to the world like you have.
> Oh! your screen name speaks for you.............................

Strong words! But do try and figure out the quoting thing!
Do you have a different definition of acupuncture than mine?
If not, what then is "chi?"
Thanks!
Nero - 23 May 2007 19:33 GMT
Sorry Sorry Sorry!
Google Groups is wigging out.
Nero - 23 May 2007 19:47 GMT
> Oh yes, you have answered very clearly.
> You have NO experience,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to the world like you have.
> Oh! your screen name speaks for you.............................

Strong words! But do try and figure out the quoting thing!
Do you have a different definition of acupuncture than mine?
If not, what then is "chi?"
Thanks!
The One True Zhen Jue - 23 May 2007 17:46 GMT
> > Nero, please tell us about your experiences with Acupuncture.
> > Also please tell us about your extensive research on this.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> that's a far cry from the amazing claims made by "acupuncturists."
> Hope I answered your question!

Hi, Nero.  Nothing any skeptic has said has had a greater chilling
affect on Acupuncture than advocacy by David "Med(s)Tools" DeHart and
his ilk.  Sure, if I didn't know any better, I too would assume by
association that it must be crap.

Qi is an abstraction.  Don't let linguistics and semantics blind you
to the results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theories_regarding_acupuncture
Nero - 23 May 2007 22:08 GMT
On May 23, 9:46 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Qi is an abstraction.  Don't let linguistics and semantics blind you
> to the results.

Money is an abstraction. It's also well-defined, useful and real.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theories_regarding_acupuncture

You do realize that anyone can put whatever they want in Wikipedia?
The One True Zhen Jue - 24 May 2007 00:01 GMT
> On May 23, 9:46 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Money is an abstraction. It's also well-defined, useful and real.

There was a time & place where clams were used as money.  Have clams
undergone a fundamental change that makes them not money?  What about
Conferedate money?  Was it money that lost its money-ness when the
south collapsed?

Has someone isolated "money" or monetary properties in gold?  Is it
the same physiological properties we find in other expensive
commodities like caviar, cocaine, cadillacs, and champagne?  Is there
a physical property in currency that renders it acceptable or is it
accepted on convention?

Qi is a very useful abstraction and it may well predate money!

> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theories_regarding_acupuncture
>
> You do realize that anyone can put whatever they want in Wikipedia?

Yes.  I also realize that the article has a pretty good bibilography.
Did you read anything at the link or did you dismiss it
prejudicially?  Acupuncture has many physiological effects and not
just at the points themselves.  Herbs have chemical properties which
have clear effects.
Nero - 24 May 2007 17:09 GMT
Thank you for your arguments in support of my statement that
money is an abstraction.

On May 23, 4:01 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Qi is a very useful abstraction and it may well predate money!

Next time you owe a Chinese doctor money, maybe you can pay
him with chi!

> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theories_regarding_acupuncture

Science does not accept the existence of chi or meridiens.
The One True Zhen Jue - 24 May 2007 18:56 GMT
> Thank you for your arguments in support of my statement that
> money is an abstraction.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Science does not accept the existence of chi or meridiens.

Science doesn't accept the existence of money, either and I'll bet
you'll work for that abstraction (money).
Like Qi, money is constantly being moved.  It is transformed into
commodities.  It is tranformed into labor.  It is transformed into
Insurance.  Money is a component in almost everything we have and yet
it is an abstraction.  Do you think money is unimportant, irrelevant,
or part of a mass delusion?

Science doesn't accept the existence of the lines of longitude &
latitude.  For some reason, those non-existent lines to a good job.
GPS wouldn't exist without those non-existent lines.  Are you alleging
a GPS can't work because the lines of longitude & latitude don't exist
independently?

I'm sure you'll agree, GPS navigation works.  Perhaps you should READ
the link I posted.  You'll learn something even if you don't accept
the notion of acupuncture being useful.

All you need is to experience the effects of a treatment to know that
it works.
Nero - 24 May 2007 19:33 GMT
On May 24, 10:56 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Science doesn't accept the existence of money, ...

That's a bizarre statement. Of course science accepts the existence
of money.

> Do you think money is unimportant, irrelevant,
> or part of a mass delusion?

Why do you keep arguing? My exact words:
"[Money is] also well-defined, useful and real."

> Science doesn't accept the existence of the lines of longitude &
> latitude.

Another bizarre and untrue statement.

> All you need is to experience the effects of a treatment to know that
> it works.

Apparently you are not familiar with the problems of anecdotal
evidence.
Science is for people who don't want to fool themselves.
The One True Zhen Jue - 24 May 2007 21:06 GMT
> On May 24, 10:56 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That's a bizarre statement. Of course science accepts the existence
> of money.

It accepts that people attribute monetary value to various and sundry
things.
It doesn't accept that money exists independently from humans.  Money
is an abstraction, remember?

> > Do you think money is unimportant, irrelevant,
> > or part of a mass delusion?
>
> Why do you keep arguing? My exact words:
> "[Money is] also well-defined, useful and real."

Sorry.  You did say that.  What I'm trying to say is that just because
something is an abstraction doesn't mean that it can't be useful.
Money is real to you and me because we believe in it.

> > Science doesn't accept the existence of the lines of longitude &
> > latitude.
>
> Another bizarre and untrue statement.

No, its 100% true.  You don't for a minute suggest that our planet
actually has lines on it as pictured on a map or globe.  You won't
suggest that the lines were discovered, either.  They were arbitrarily
chosen because they are a useful abstraction.  Humans & Machines can
use these non-existent lines to calculate a position.  This
information can be used to locate, rescue, or target and yet the lines
do NOT exist!  They are merely a convention.  Alternate systems could
be created which would yield the same results.  The meridians are to
the body like longitude & latitude are to the globe.

> > All you need is to experience the effects of a treatment to know that
> > it works.
>
> Apparently you are not familiar with the problems of anecdotal
> evidence.

No, I'm not.  I realize that it is very difficult to test acupuncture
via blinding.  Its hard to blind the patient and harder to blind the
practitioner!
I appreciate the value of testing and like double blinding, its just
not possible with acupuncture.

I KNOW that not all my patients who experience relief do so because of
the acupuncture.  I can easily believe that some were getting better
and happened upon me while they were getting better.   When people
consistently call quit their pain meds, quit the pain clinic, and go
back to work, you have something going on.  These aren't people whose
neck hurts SOME.  These are people with rods in their neck, wired
jaws, plates in their skulls, and severe burns.  When you have a
better success rate with pain patients than the pain clinics, MD's
send patients to you.  Whatever it is I'm doing gets a lot of people
off meds, back to work, out of their MD's office, and yes, out of my
office, too.

Now, if you're actually interested in scientific studies of the
effects of acupuncture, you'll check out the link I posted.
It shows results of imaging done on people recieving acupuncture.  The
neurological,

> Science is for people who don't want to fool themselves.

Agreed.  It may surprise you, but I'm quite pro-science.  I'm pro
mainstream medicine and vaccines.  I don't fear aspartame or amalgams.
I was a member of the Peter Bowditch's rag-tag posse, for cryin' out
loud!

Somethings can be more easily explained by experience than in
writing.  Sex is one example.  Sure, you can study it, but until
you've done it, you can't know how it feels to YOU.  Acupuncture is
somewhat like that.  You can't be sure it will OR won't work for your
pain (etc) unless you try it.  Its a pretty simple, safe procedure and
it isn't very expensive.  It is far less scary than many mainstream
procedures medical or dental!

Now, since you like science why not check out this science?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theories_regarding_acupuncture
Nero - 25 May 2007 06:50 GMT
On May 24, 1:06 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Sorry.  You did say that.  What I'm trying to say is that just because
> something is an abstraction doesn't mean that it can't be useful.

Goddammit! I said MONEY IS A USEFUL ABSTRACTION.
The One True Zhen Jue - 25 May 2007 13:37 GMT
> On May 24, 1:06 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Goddammit! I said MONEY IS A USEFUL ABSTRACTION.

Now YOU aren't paying attention.  My point is that Qi, like money, is
a useful abstraction, and you do know that now.
You've also backed away from your statement about lines of longitude &
latitude being scientifically proven to exist.

You're making some progress, but you do have a way to go.  I guess
you're reading the link I cited...
Nero - 25 May 2007 17:08 GMT
On May 25, 5:37 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Now YOU aren't paying attention.  My point is that Qi, like money, is
> a useful abstraction, and you do know that now.

Money is useful. Chi is not. Money is defined. Chi is not.
The existence of money is accepted by science. The
existence of chi is not. There are no physical phenomena
that are best understood using Chi as a metaphor.
Chi is a useless abstraction that does not contribute
to our understanding of the Universe.

> You've also backed away from your statement about lines of longitude &
> latitude being scientifically proven to exist.

They are just like money, and just unlike Chi. They are defined, they
are useful, they are used in science and they _exist_.
They actually physically exist in ink on a map. When someone
refers to 40?43 N, 74?00 W, I know exactly what they mean.

> You're making some progress, but you do have a way to go.  I guess
> you're reading the link I cited...

Remember that I said needle stimulation has an effect, possibly
beneficial, on the nervous system. That's not the same as acupuncture.
The One True Zhen Jue - 25 May 2007 18:37 GMT
> On May 25, 5:37 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Money is useful. Chi is not. Money is defined. Chi is not.
> The existence of money is accepted by science.

Show me the scientific experiments which prove money exists.  I'm
looking forward to seeing them!

>The
> existence of chi is not. There are no physical phenomena
> that are best understood using Chi as a metaphor.

How about disease?  Many of them are well understood in that context.

> Chi is a useless abstraction that does not contribute
> to our understanding of the Universe.

How does money does contribute to our knowledge of the universe?

> > You've also backed away from your statement about lines of longitude &
> > latitude being scientifically proven to exist.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> They actually physically exist in ink on a map. When someone
> refers to 40?43 N, 74?00 W, I know exactly what they mean.

LMAO! I'm laughing at you, not with you!  Sure, those ink lines on the
map PROVE that the lines are really there!
When someone refers to Lung 3 or St 36, millions of people know
EXACTLY what they mean.  Notice that the lines of longitude are
called....MERIDIANS!

> > You're making some progress, but you do have a way to go.  I guess
> > you're reading the link I cited...
>
> Remember that I said needle stimulation has an effect, possibly
> beneficial, on the nervous system. That's not the same as acupuncture.

Oh, and what is the difference?  Does your hang-up on the semantics of
Qi create an artificical distinction between the two?

Please post the scientific experiments proving the existence of
Money.  I want to know what scientist was credited with the discovery.
Nero - 26 May 2007 00:48 GMT
On May 25, 10:37 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> How about disease?  Many of them are well understood in that context.

What is the definition of chi?

> How does money does contribute to our knowledge of the universe?

How much money I have tells me how much I can buy,
or how many hours I worked last week.
That's knowing something about the state of the Universe. I don't
know why this is so hard to understand.

> LMAO! I'm laughing at you, not with you!  Sure, those ink lines on the
> map PROVE that the lines are really there!

Longitude lines are lines on a map. No one ever said they were
lines on the Earth. If you still don't get it, read slow. Think hard.

> Oh, and what is the difference?  Does your hang-up on the semantics of
> Qi create an artificical distinction between the two?

What is the definition of chi?
The One True Zhen Jue - 26 May 2007 15:24 GMT
> On May 25, 10:37 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> That's knowing something about the state of the Universe. I don't
> know why this is so hard to understand.

The state of the universe has nothing to do with economics.  Find a
single cosmologist to support your contention, if you can.
It seems like YOU never took physics.

> > LMAO! I'm laughing at you, not with you!  Sure, those ink lines on the
> > map PROVE that the lines are really there!
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> What is the definition of chi?

It seems you snip every point you lose and dodge every question put to
you.
When you supply the scientific proof of the existence of the lines of
longitude and latitude
you write "They actually physically exist in ink on a map."

That's pretty lame, even for you, Nero.  You've talked yourself into a
box and want to pretend that you didn't say those things.  You know
that your comments make you look like a scientific illiterate or an
intellectually dishonest blowhard.

Simply cite the scientific proofs of the existence of longitude &
latitudes and money.  That's all it takes to prove your point.
Go ahead, search the Internet, call you local university's physics
department or a bank.  Somewhere, there MUST be a banker, physicist,
or accountant that can find that for you.

Do that, and I'll cheerfully give you a proper definition of Qi.

(Nero: Insert cop-out here.  Say that money is self-evident.  Say that
Longitude & Latitude actually physically exist in ink on a Globe)
Nero - 27 May 2007 11:57 GMT
On May 26, 7:24 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Simply cite the scientific proofs of the existence of longitude &
> latitudes and money.  That's all it takes to prove your point.
> ...
> Do that, and I'll cheerfully give you a proper definition of Qi.

Gladly! What would you accept as proof that money exists?
The One True Zhen Jue - 27 May 2007 14:40 GMT
> On May 26, 7:24 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Gladly! What would you accept as proof that money exists?

As I have said, I want the name of the person who discovered money,
the experiemental design, and the results.
Please post a link to that.
Nero - 27 May 2007 21:45 GMT
On May 27, 6:40 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> As I have said, I want the name of the person who discovered money,
> the experiemental design, and the results.
> Please post a link to that.

That would be like accepting the name "Isaac Newton" as proof that
gravity exists.

In any case, money was invented, not discovered. We forgive you for
not
knowing this, because you seem to have been born yesterday. Can I
claim
that safety pins exist without knowing the name of their inventor?

What is the definition of chi?
The One True Zhen Jue - 28 May 2007 00:14 GMT
> On May 27, 6:40 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> claim
> that safety pins exist without knowing the name of their inventor?

Of course, you can & do say all sorts of wacky things.  Say again that
part about lines of latitude and longitude exist because they exist in
ink on the map.  Go on, say it!

Now, a clear-headed individual like myself would say Walter Hunt
invented the safety pin.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blhunt_pin.htm

You see, Nero, according to your logic, Harry Potter & the Easter
Bunny exist.  They too exist as lines of ink on pages.

> What is the definition of chi?

I'll be glad to post it when you either prove or retract your claim
about longitude and latitude.
Nero - 28 May 2007 05:55 GMT
On May 27, 4:14 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> I'll be glad to post it when you either prove or retract your claim
> about longitude and latitude.

We might have different definitions of lines of longitude and
latitude. I already gave mine explicitly, as lines on a map.
If we had your definition as well, perhaps we
could settle the issue and move on. Please define lines of
longitude and latitude.
The One True Zhen Jue - 28 May 2007 12:55 GMT
> On May 27, 4:14 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> could settle the issue and move on. Please define lines of
> longitude and latitude.

This is interesting.  You make a claim that Qi doesn't exist and
therefore acupuncture doesn't either.
That is something unique to you.  You have the peculiar notion that
money is recognized by science.

Troll elsewhere, Nero.  Your drivel has become tiresome.
Nero - 28 May 2007 19:16 GMT
Andrew_King wrote:

> This is interesting.  You make a claim that Qi doesn't exist and
> therefore acupuncture doesn't either.

Do you agree with this statement from the Wikipedia article
on acupuncture?

Chinese medical theory holds that acupuncture works by
normalizing the free flow of qi (a difficult-to-translate concept
that pervades Chinese philosophy and is commonly translated as
"vital energy") throughout the body.

If so, what is qi?
Jan Drew - 25 May 2007 08:44 GMT
>> On May 24, 10:56 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theories_regarding_acupuncture

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Not professional advice
Richard Schultz - 24 May 2007 17:25 GMT
: Qi is a very useful abstraction and it may well predate money!

Useful for removing money from the pockets of suckers, yes.  You do know
that when Nixon went to China and was shown acupuncture being used during
surgery as an example of the triumph of Chinese medicine, the patients
were in fact anesthetized using good old fashioned chemicals, don't you?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
The One True Zhen Jue - 24 May 2007 19:09 GMT
> In article <1179961275.054618.258...@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> -----
>  "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"

Yes, I know the PRC does a lot of stupid things in the name of public
relations.  I wouldn't be surprised if the people weren't anthestized
and that the PRC told them to suffer in silence.

I do know that about 1/3 of my patients come from MD referal.  If they
have a patient or two tell them that they found relief from
acupuncture, they don't think much of it.  When they have several long-
term pain patients who call them up and tell them that they are pain
free and don't need their meds, they take notice.  When those same
people remain off of meds for years & go back to their full-time job,
they really take notice.  As a matter for fact, I have had patients
send their MD to me!

Now, you can believe that all of these people are very suggestible and/
or that they didn't really have any pain to begin with.  Sure, that's
mighty plausible!  They all decided that they wanted someone to stick
needles into them, but they just had to come up with an excuse.  So,
they decided to have severe trauma, arthritis, & prolapsed disks so
they could rationalize their need to be needled.  Yeah, that IS the
ticket!

Acupuncture works for pain, most any type and most of the time.  That
is the experience of myself, my patients, and perhaps half a billion
other people.  It has worked when opiates & anti-inflamatories have
failed.  It has worked on people who insisted that it would not.

How it works is not completely understood.  Clearly, there is no
separate form of energy called "Qi".  Qi, like money, happiness, love,
hate, & IQ cannot be found in nature; they are abstractions.  So, why
get all hung-up on the labels when you should be looking at the
results?
Richard Schultz - 27 May 2007 05:52 GMT
: Acupuncture works for pain, most any type and most of the time.  That
: is the experience of myself, my patients, and perhaps half a billion
: other people.  It has worked when opiates & anti-inflamatories have
: failed.  It has worked on people who insisted that it would not.

Can you give me a reference to a properly controlled study in which
acupuncture was shown to be a more effective analgesic than opiantes
and anti-inflammatories?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
The One True Zhen Jue - 27 May 2007 14:54 GMT
> In article <1180030163.557015.136...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> -----
> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."

Yes, I can.  However, I hope you understand that double-blinding is
out of the question.
Its not that I have any objections to double-blinding, but it is not
possible with acupuncture.

In this circumstance, what do you consider a properly controlled
study?
Richard Schultz - 27 May 2007 15:55 GMT
:> Can you give me a reference to a properly controlled study in which
:> acupuncture was shown to be a more effective analgesic than opiantes
:> and anti-inflammatories?

: Yes, I can.  However, I hope you understand that double-blinding is
: out of the question.
: Its not that I have any objections to double-blinding, but it is not
: possible with acupuncture.

Why not?

: In this circumstance, what do you consider a properly controlled study?

For starters, some consistent method of determining the amount of pain
being experienced by the patients, and one in which the patients do not
know whether or not they are receiving a placebo (e.g. the acupuncture
needles are not inserted into the "correct" points).

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
The One True Zhen Jue - 28 May 2007 00:06 GMT
> In article <1180274094.134694.140...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Why not?

How do you blind both the acupuncturist and the patient?  How would a
practitioner not know if he were or weren't inserting a needle?

> : In this circumstance, what do you consider a properly controlled study?
>
> For starters, some consistent method of determining the amount of pain
> being experienced by the patients, and one in which the patients do not
> know whether or not they are receiving a placebo (e.g. the acupuncture
> needles are not inserted into the "correct" points).

Well, if you are seriously asking for double-blinded acupuncture, I'll
have to tell you I don't know of any such experiements.  I'm not sure
that it is possible.  Few single blinded studies exist, using a
"placebo needle" in Germany (I think).

As for "some consistent method of determining the amount of pain
being experienced by the patients" do you mean those used in medical
trials for meds?  If not, please elaborate.

> -----
> Richard Schultz                              schu...@mail.biu.ac.il
> Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
> Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
> -----
> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Richard Schultz - 28 May 2007 06:59 GMT
:> : Its not that I have any objections to double-blinding, but it is not
:> : possible with acupuncture.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: How do you blind both the acupuncturist and the patient?  How would a
: practitioner not know if he were or weren't inserting a needle?

The practitioner does not know whether the patient is in the control
group or in the experimental group; the patient does not know whether the
needles are being inserted in the "correct" places or in random locations.

:> : In this circumstance, what do you consider a properly controlled study?
:>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
: being experienced by the patients" do you mean those used in medical
: trials for meds?  If not, please elaborate.

I would prefer some kind of objective measure (e.g. PET scans of the
areas of the brain that are active when the patient is experiencing pain),
but I would even accept self-reported pain levels if there was some
consistent way of reporting them (e.g. rather than "does this make you feel
better," "does X hurt more than Y").

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
The One True Zhen Jue - 28 May 2007 13:05 GMT
> In article <1180307189.500141.290...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> group or in the experimental group; the patient does not know whether the
> needles are being inserted in the "correct" places or in random locations.

No. That does not consitute double-blinding.   Many researchers have
put forth ideas to "blind" acupuncture trials and none call this
notion double blinding.

If someone simply tells the acupuncturist to do certain points, that
requires the acupuncturist to palpate the region to locate the tender
spots near or at the acupoints.  Now, if you'd consider your
parameters as double blinding, fine.  I just don't know of any studies
done in that fashion.

> :> : In this circumstance, what do you consider a properly controlled study?
> :>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> consistent way of reporting them (e.g. rather than "does this make you feel
> better," "does X hurt more than Y").

Well, I don't know if the former is used in tests of meds.  The latter
IS used in most pain studies, regardless of the modality tested.
Some very interesting things happen in the brain during acupuncture.
I'm sure you read the link I posted earlier in the thread.  Heck, its
the imaging results that has convinced the NIH, WHO, BMA, and many
others.

Yes, acupuncture has measurable effects on the nervous system.  It
works on animals and it works on people.  It works even if the patient
doesn't want to get acupuncture, doesn't like acupuncture, and even if
they don't believe in it.

(BTW, do you know a Dr Micha Shamir?)

> -----
> Richard Schultz                              schu...@mail.biu.ac.il
> Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
> Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
> -----
> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
The One True Zhen Jue - 28 May 2007 13:26 GMT
> In article <1180307189.500141.290...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> consistent way of reporting them (e.g. rather than "does this make you feel
> better," "does X hurt more than Y").

MD's find one particular objective measure very impressive.  It can't
be seen on imaging, but it can be seen on the patient's chart!
Its when a patient, who has been taking Rx pain killers for more than
2 years, quits taking pain meds.  When a person who has been declared
100% disabled tells his MD that he wants to have his disability
revoked and go back to work, they pay attention.

The MD's (usually anesthesiologists) at the pain clinic evaluate my
work on that scale.  They don't pay much attention to anything short
of that.  That's because a lot of pain patients have good days and bad
days.  Sometimes, patients try something (herbs, exercise, meditation,
chiro, acupuncture, etc) and they rave.  Thats all well and good, if
the relief lasts!   When a person goes off meds, back to work, and
quits complaining about their pain, they take that seriously.
Anything less is usually written off as placebo.

I don't want to give the impression that every pain patient
experiences such relief.  Some don't report ANY relief.  Almost all
patients feel some relief, but for some it may not be enough to merit
further treatment.  When it does work that well (over 50%), I hear it
from their family, spouse, and co-workers.  When someone gets their
life back, you know that something has changed.  When that happens
daily to over half your patients, you know you're doing something
right.  Perhaps that's why 46% of the GP's in the UK want to learn
acupuncture so that they can perform it on their patients.

> -----
> Richard Schultz                              schu...@mail.biu.ac.il
> Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
> Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
> -----
> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Nero - 28 May 2007 19:27 GMT
On May 27, 6:54 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Yes, I can.  However, I hope you understand that double-blinding is
> out of the question.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> In this circumstance, what do you consider a properly controlled
> study?

The burden is on those who claim TCM's efficacy to devise
a proper study that accounts for all confounding factors.
Until they do, TCM cannot really be accepted.
The One True Zhen Jue - 28 May 2007 20:03 GMT
> On May 27, 6:54 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> a proper study that accounts for all confounding factors.
> Until they do, TCM cannot really be accepted.

I agree that more high quality research needs to be done.  Its a tough
thing to research, but the use of PET & MRI helps.  In time, science
will have even better explanations of the physiological mechanisms.
Technology has added to the case for acupuncture efficacy, not against
it.  After all, this isn't voodoo, it shows up on modern radiology.

Many good studies have been done.  Many more poor ones have been
done.  The trend is quite positive for Acupuncture efficacy, despite
the poor training of many non-Chinese acupuncturists (in my ever-so-
humble opinion).

Sure, anecdotes don't prove anything.  I say that all the time because
I believe it.  I wouldn't expect someone to come to me as a patient
because someone simply said something positive.  Its when they notice
an irrefutable change in someone they've know for years that they take
notice.

When someone wants me to prove that acupuncture works, I'm quite happy
to demonstrate it.  Its what I do 5 days a week, ~50 weeks a year.
If my treatment fails on an individual, I wouldn't expect him to care
if a study proved 90% efficacy.  If my treatment succeeds on an
individual, they wouldn't care if a study said the average efficacy
was <= than taking aspirin.

Until someone comes up with an experiemental trial that suits you and
Richard, I'll just have to prove it the old fashion way, by delivering
the goods.  I'm cool with that and so is the NIH, WHO, & BMA.
Nero - 29 May 2007 05:30 GMT
On May 28, 12:03 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> ....  I wouldn't expect someone to come to me as a patient
> because someone simply said something positive.  Its when they notice
> an irrefutable change in someone they've know for years that they take
> notice.

The latter is as much an anecdote as the former.
The One True Zhen Jue - 29 May 2007 13:55 GMT
> On May 28, 12:03 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> The latter is as much an anecdote as the former.

No, Res ipsa loquitur - the affair speaks for itself.  No words are
needed when OBJECTIVE changes occur such as the person stops taking
meds and goes back to work.  That is something that can be measured
and is more significant than a mere change in reported pain levels.
Perhaps that's why 46% of UK GPs are interesting in learning
acupuncture and performing it on their patients.
Nero - 29 May 2007 17:27 GMT
On May 29, 5:55 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> No, Res ipsa loquitur - the affair speaks for itself. ...

Is it still your position that qi exists and money does not?
Define qi.
The One True Zhen Jue - 29 May 2007 21:05 GMT
> On May 29, 5:55 am, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Is it still your position that qi exists and money does not?
> Define qi.

No, its my position that they both exist as abstractions.  Neither
exists independently of man.
linus17 - 25 May 2007 18:32 GMT
what a suppressive you are  Mr, pessimist

>: Qi is a very useful abstraction and it may well predate money!
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>-----
> "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
ellie.blunt - 22 May 2007 19:31 GMT
On May 21, 2:57 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> > Elliehttp://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com
>
> Yes, Acupuncture & Chinese Herbs.

thanks!  knowing little about Chinese herbs, where would one start?
Also, I've heard great things about Acupuncture, but have yet to try
it.  I've recently heard about Acupuncture using low electrical
voltage.  Any thoughts on this?

Ellie
http://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com
ellie.blunt - 22 May 2007 19:48 GMT
On May 21, 2:57 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> > Elliehttp://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com
>
> Yes, Acupuncture & Chinese Herbs.

Thanks.  Knowing little about chinese Herbs, where would one start?
Also, do you have any thoughts on acupuncture that involves low jolts
of electricity?
The One True Zhen Jue - 23 May 2007 17:38 GMT
> On May 21, 2:57 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Also, do you have any thoughts on acupuncture that involves low jolts
> of electricity?

Diagnosis is the key to successful treatment in all medical systems.
Try to find an experienced, licensed acupuncturist, preferably one
that has training in Chinese herbs.  Try your yellow pages or ask for
a referal from your medical doctor.  (For what its worth, about 1/3 of
my patients come from MD referals).

Your acupuncturist will want to know: where do you feel the pain
(behind the eyes, forehead, temples, occiput, etc), what the pain
sensation feels like (sharp/stabbing, throbbing, pressure from the
inside, etc) what makes the pain better or worse, what seems to
trigger them, other sypmtoms (nausea, dizziness, sweating, etc) time
of day, frequency, duration, etc.

I don't recommend electro-stim in most cases.  I would doubt that
would be helpful in your case.
Roman Bystrianyk - 21 May 2007 20:45 GMT
> Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> Elliehttp://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com

Here are 2 articles that may be of use to you.  Enjoy your day!

Roman

Gentle yoga may aid migraine sufferers
http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?event=news_print_list_item&id=1863

Herbal Extract Reduces Migraines
http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?id=521&title=Herbal+Extract+Reduces+Migra
ines&event=news_print_list_item

Roman Bystrianyk - 21 May 2007 20:46 GMT
> Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> Elliehttp://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com

Here are 2 articles that may be of use to you.  Enjoy your day!

Roman

Gentle yoga may aid migraine sufferers
http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?event=news_print_list_item&id=1863

Herbal Extract Reduces Migraines
http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?id=521&title=Herbal+Extract+Reduces+Migra
ines&event=news_print_list_item

ellie.blunt - 22 May 2007 19:44 GMT
> > Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Herbal Extract Reduces Migraineshttp://www.healthsentinel.com/news.php?id=521&title=Herbal+Extract+Re...

These are great.  Many thanks!!!
cognite tute - 22 May 2007 18:54 GMT
> Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> Ellie
> http://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com

how about big pharma?

try Plavix.

worked for me

j.
linus17 - 25 May 2007 18:29 GMT
>Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
>Ellie
>http://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com
Chiropractic care has worked very well for thousands of chronic and acute
migraine sufferers
Nero - 26 May 2007 00:50 GMT
> Chiropractic care has worked very well for thousands of chronic and acute
> migraine sufferers

Where are the controlled studies that support this claim?
David - 26 May 2007 01:48 GMT
Dear, Slow, Nero,
It may surprise you and cause you great dismay,
BUT,
millions of people all over the world have tried both Acupuncture AND
Quiropractic with better results than they had with the things you call
medicine.
AND!!!
They will continue to do so.
AND!!!!
AND!!!!
GASP!!!
They will tell their family and friends, who will listen and follow their
advice!
So while you entertain us with your two string fiddle concert,
the world IS laughing at you, NOT with you.
Nero - 27 May 2007 12:09 GMT
> millions of people all over the world have tried both Acupuncture AND
> Quiropractic with better results than they had with the things you call
> medicine.

What things do I call medicine? Can you quote me on that?
Jan Drew - 26 May 2007 08:21 GMT
>> Chiropractic care has worked very well for thousands of chronic and acute
>> migraine sufferers
>
> Where are the controlled studies that support this claim?

ZZzz.  You don't need a study, all   one need is *personal experience*.
Nero - 27 May 2007 12:11 GMT
> ZZzz.  You don't need a study, all   one need is *personal experience*.

(Sorry you are bored!)
How do you account for confirmation bias, regression to the mean,
the placebo effect, and other confounding factors when looking at
personal experience?
Richard Schultz - 27 May 2007 15:56 GMT
:> ZZzz.  You don't need a study, all   one need is *personal experience*.

: (Sorry you are bored!)
: How do you account for confirmation bias, regression to the mean,
: the placebo effect, and other confounding factors when looking at
: personal experience?

Better yet, ask her how she accounts for Steve McQueen when looking at
"personal experience" of laetrile therapy.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
Peter Bowditch - 27 May 2007 21:46 GMT
>:> ZZzz.  You don't need a study, all   one need is *personal experience*.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Better yet, ask her how she accounts for Steve McQueen when looking at
>"personal experience" of laetrile therapy.

That one's easy!

Laetrile might be the most powerful cancer cure known to man (except
for all the other ones) but it was unable to overcome the residual
effects of the leaded gasoline fumes breathed by McQueen while filming
Bullit and Le Mans. Even Stan Burzynski couldn't have saved him, or
Hulda Clark, or Sam Chachoua, or ...

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/cancercurers.htm
Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Peter Bowditch - 27 May 2007 21:38 GMT
>> ZZzz.  You don't need a study, all   one need is *personal experience*.
>
>(Sorry you are bored!)
>How do you account for confirmation bias, regression to the mean,
>the placebo effect, and other confounding factors when looking at
>personal experience?

Jan doesn't account for those, because they are constructs of
*organized medicine*. Out in quackland they don't need no steenkin'
confounders (because knowledge of them detracts from the power of
magic).

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Jerry - 27 May 2007 15:29 GMT
> Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> Elliehttp://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com

Your are probably dehydrated. Start replacing most of your liquid
intake with water. Build up to eight to ten glasses a day over a
couple of months and then keep it up. Add a little organic sea salt to
your diet daily so that you get your trace minerals. Take an iodine,
zing, magnesium, and some calcium supplements for a while. I'm no
doctor this is just my opinion. I think that if you do this you won't
only get rid of your migraines, but a whole lot of other problems as
well. Good luck. Read a book called "Your not sick your thirsty".
Jerry, the Canuck
Richard Schultz - 27 May 2007 15:57 GMT
: Add a little organic sea salt to your diet daily

This is more or less where I came in.  How exactly can *sea salt* be "organic"?

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Peter Bowditch - 27 May 2007 21:48 GMT
>: Add a little organic sea salt to your diet daily
>
>This is more or less where I came in.  How exactly can *sea salt* be "organic"?

It's grown without pesticides or fertiliser, silly. Don't you know
anything?
Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

The One True Zhen Jue - 28 May 2007 00:28 GMT
> Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> Elliehttp://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com

Two things to note.  The first is not surprising, the British Medical
Associate finds acupuncture more effective on Migraines than other
control interventions.  The second, well, read it yourself!  Yup, MD's
readily dig acupuncture.  Its quite nice to see someone get so much
relief from such a simple, safe procedure.  I guess thats not too
surprising, especially when you've seen the results....over & over
again.

1. The traditional "gold standard" of whether a treatment or procedure
is effective is the randomized controlled trial (RCT). After examining
several clinical trials of acupuncture for various medical conditions,
the report concludes that acupuncture "is more effective than control
interventions" for back pain, nausea and vomiting (most convincingly
for post-operative symptoms in adults), migraine and dental pain.

2. GPs' overall knowledge of acupuncture was found to be low. Only 16%
said they had "considerable knowledge" of acupuncture or "knew a lot"
about the subject; 82% said they had "very little" or only "basic"
knowledge of complementary and alternative medicine. However, nearly
half (46%) said they would like to receive further training in
acupuncture in order to treat their own patients in the future.

In one of the most surprising statistics, a full 79% of practitioners
reported that they would like to see acupuncture provided in the
National Health Service. For this to happen, however, the survey
concluded - as did the full report - that more rigorous clinical
trials would need to be conducted.

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2000/aug/08bma.html

BMA Acknowledges the Benefits of Acupuncture
Report Recommends Treatment Be Integrated into National Health Service
By Michael Devitt

In the past decade, several national and international organizations
have issued reports concerning the safety and efficacy of acupuncture.
The most well-known of these reports, the National Institutes of
Health Consensus Development Statement, concluded in 1997 that "there
is sufficient evidence · of acupuncture's value to expand its use into
conventional medicine and to encourage further studies of its
physiology and value."1

Now, the British Medical Association has offered its opinion on the
subject. At the BMA's annual conference in London this June, the
association published a report, Acupuncture: Efficacy, Safety and
Practice,2 which acknowledges the scientific benefits of acupuncture
and recommends that the treatment be incorporated into the National
Health Service, Britian's national health care program.

"(Acupuncture) is clearly something that people are turning to in
large numbers," said Dr. Vivienne Nathanson, head of health policy at
the BMA. "And it is clearly something that GPs (general practitioners)
are turning to in increasing numbers."

The current report is the result of a resolution passed at the BMA's
annual representative meeting in 1998, at which a resolution was
passed to "investigate the scientific basis and efficacy of
acupuncture and the quality of training and standards of competence in
its practitioners." The paper also represents the third time in the
last 15 years that the BMA has published a major report on
complementary and alternative care.

Acupuncture: Efficacy, Safety and Practice contains sections that
study the efficacy and safety of acupuncture; the ways in which
acupuncturists are taught; and the future development of the
profession. The report also summarizes a BMA survey of general
practitioners and their feelings toward complementary and alternative
care, and issues recommendations as to how the delivery of acupuncture
can be improved.

Safety and Efficacy of Acupuncture

The traditional "gold standard" of whether a treatment or procedure is
effective is the randomized controlled trial (RCT). After examining
several clinical trials of acupuncture for various medical conditions,
the report concludes that acupuncture "is more effective than control
interventions" for back pain, nausea and vomiting (most convincingly
for post-operative symptoms in adults), migraine and dental pain.

Less conclusive results, meanwhile, have been found for conditions
such as neck pain and osteoarthritis, recovery from stroke, tension
headaches, temporomandibular joint dysfunction, smoking cessation and
weight loss.

Regarding the safety of acupuncture, the report states that most
adverse reactions generally fall into three main areas: physical
injuries (such as cardiovascular trauma); infections from blood-borne
viruses; and other adverse reactions (such as drowsiness or fainting
after treatment).

Although some adverse reactions may be difficult to control, the
report stresses that most physical injuries can be avoided with proper
training in anatomy and physiology, particularly in terms of the depth
and location of major organs. Transmission of infectious agents,
meanwhile, could be greatly reduced by improving sterilization
techniques or using only pre-sterile disposable needles instead of
reusable needles.

Education and Training of Acupuncturists

Acupuncture can - and has been - taught and practiced in a variety of
ways. In fact, the report concludes that "within agreed parameters," a
certain amount of diversity in acupuncture training can be considered
"healthy" in meeting the individual needs of students and the
different approaches and practices among acupuncture instructors.

With such diversity, the report recommends that "a core curriculum for
practitioners" be put in place that includes instruction in anatomy
and physiology, research methods, acupuncture techniques, fundamentals
of diagnosis, and ethics. These courses should be "of a credible
duration" to provide students with the ability to practice acupuncture
with an acceptable level of competency.

The report also recommends greater undergraduate training and
accredited postgraduate training in acupuncture at medical schools.

"Because patients and doctors are turning to acupuncture in increasing
numbers," said Dr. Nathanson, "doctors need more information about its
safety, and medical students need better training while at university
to give patients advice."

Future Developments in Acupuncture

Although there are no comprehensive acupuncture guidelines for general
practitioners or patients, and there are no national regulatory and
safety standard in place for acupuncturists in Great Britain, the
profession continues to flourish. For acupuncture to continue growing,
however, the BMA feels that more collaborative studies should be
conducted to study the costs and benefits of treatment.

"There is a need for greater consensus on the part of the government,
Department of Health, NHS Executive, the medical profession, and
acupuncture organizations to provide guidelines and agree how
acupuncture and other complementary and alternative medicine services
can be integrated into the UK healthcare system," the report stated.

"We need to see more high-quality research into the effectiveness of
acupuncture," added Dr. Nathanson. "We welcome complementary medicines
into medical practice, but only based on robust research and robust
training."

Recommendations

The report lists several recommendations for the integration,
regulation and funding of acupuncture. Among the most noteworthy:

Consideration should be given to the creation of policies and
guidelines that would make acupuncture more widely available to
patients under the National Health Service.
A general list of all acupuncturists, medically and non-medically
qualified, should be produced and maintained to facilitate the
referral process for NHS doctors.
Further research should be conducted into the cost-effectiveness of
acupuncture treatment, particularly for those conditions in which
acupuncture has been identified as an effective form of care. Research
should also be conducted into other conditions that may be usefully
treated by acupuncture.
Acupuncture organizations should collaborate in creating a national
system for the reporting of adverse events.
Relationships between acupuncturists, general practitioners and
patients must be strengthened. An atmosphere of mutual respect should
be promoted between GPs and their patients regarding the use of
acupuncture. Doctors should ask about their patients' use of
acupuncture and other alternative forms of care; acupuncturists, in
turn, should recommend that their patients inform their GPs of their
treatment.
Acupuncture should be included in any familiarization course on
complementary and alternative medicine. Accredited postgraduate
courses should be provided to inform doctors and other clinicians
about acupuncture and its possible benefits.
All acupuncturists should be fully trained in infection control
procedures, and immunization against hepatitis B should be considered
for the protection of acupuncturists and their patients.
BMA Survey of Acupuncture in Primary Care

In addition to its review of acupuncture and recommendations,
Acupuncture: Efficacy, Safety and Practice summarizes a survey of
general practitioners in the United Kingdom to assess their use of
(and attitudes toward) complementary and alternative medicine. A total
of 365 GPs completed the survey, which was sent to every general
practitioner in the country.

Of those who responded to the survey, more than half (58%) had
arranged complementary or alternative therapies for their patients.
Almost half of those surveyed reported arranging acupuncture treatment
for their patients.

Acupuncture was also the most common form of alternative care used by
general practitioners, and was used most commonly for pain relief and
treating musculoskeletal disorders. It was most often performed in
pain clinics or physiotherapy departments.

GPs' overall knowledge of acupuncture was found to be low. Only 16%
said they had "considerable knowledge" of acupuncture or "knew a lot"
about the subject; 82% said they had "very little" or only "basic"
knowledge of complementary and alternative medicine. However, nearly
half (46%) said they would like to receive further training in
acupuncture in order to treat their own patients in the future.

In one of the most surprising statistics, a full 79% of practitioners
reported that they would like to see acupuncture provided in the
National Health Service. For this to happen, however, the survey
concluded - as did the full report - that more rigorous clinical
trials would need to be conducted.

Report Available Online

Acupuncture: Efficacy, Safety and Practice is available from the
British Medical Association for £12.99 plus shipping and handling
(note: at press time, £12.99 was roughly equal to $19.59 US).
Practitioners interested in ordering a copy may visit the BMA's
website (www.bma.org.uk), or they send an e-mail to the BMA's online
bookstore (orders@bmjbookshop.com ).
Liz - 29 May 2007 15:12 GMT
> Do any of you have any suggestions for alleviating migraines?
>
> Elliehttp://www.transparenthypnotist.blogspot.com

Try an elimination diet.  It's most likely something you're eating
that's causing migraines.  The usual culprits are wheat, eggs, nuts,
soy, and dairy.

~Liz
Nero - 29 May 2007 17:39 GMT
> ...It's most likely something you're eating
> that's causing migraines.  ...

Jerry <jerry....@verizon.net> wrote:

> Your are probably dehydrated. ...

The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Try to find an experienced, licensed acupuncturist, preferably one
> that has training in Chinese herbs.

I'm confused...whose brand of nonsense should we follow?
The One True Zhen Jue - 29 May 2007 21:07 GMT
> > ...It's most likely something you're eating
> > that's causing migraines.  ...
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I'm confused...whose brand of nonsense should we follow?

Yes, you certainly are.  That quip about lines of longitude existing
as lines on the planet because they exist as ink on the map proves it.

You seem quite content with your own brand of nonsense and are
probably too old & dim to learn anything new; nonsense or not.
Nero - 29 May 2007 21:38 GMT
On May 29, 1:07 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Yes, you certainly are.  That quip about lines of longitude existing
> as lines on the planet because they exist as ink on the map proves it.

I challenge you to quote me where I said lines of longitude exist
as lines on the planet.
The One True Zhen Jue - 29 May 2007 22:20 GMT
> On May 29, 1:07 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I challenge you to quote me where I said lines oflongitudeexist
> as lines on the planet.

You said they were real & accepted by science.  Doesn't that imply
that they are really there?

At any rate, let me just go ahead an withdraw my statement.  I've got
a better one.

Remember when you said that money tells you about the state of the
universe?  I got a quantum chuckle out of that one!
Find a physicist who'll validate that claim!
Nero - 29 May 2007 23:04 GMT
On May 29, 2:20 pm, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> At any rate, let me just go ahead an withdraw my statement.  I've got
> a better one.

I accept your retraction.

> Remember when you said that money tells you about the state of the
> universe?  I got a quantum chuckle out of that one!
> Find a physicist who'll validate that claim!

Believing "the Universe" only includes things like supernovae and
quarks could be a symptom of scientific illiteracy. I'd have
it checked out.
In the meantime, here's some help from WordNet
(http://wordnet.princeton.edu/per