Medical Forum / General / Alternative / April 2007
Study: Most Angioplasties Unneeded (????)
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Ilena Rose - 29 Mar 2007 01:26 GMT www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm
Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET)
By MARILYNN MARCHIONE (AP) William E. Boden, M.D. shows the shape of a stent as he speaks to the media at the 56th Annual... Full Image
NEW ORLEANS (AP) - More than half a million people a year with chest pain are getting an unnecessary or premature procedure to unclog their arteries because drugs are just as effective, suggests a landmark study that challenges one of the most common practices in heart care.
The stunning results found that angioplasty did not save lives or prevent heart attacks in non-emergency heart patients.
An even bigger surprise: Angioplasty gave only slight and temporary relief from chest pain, the main reason it is done.
"By five years, there was really no significant difference" in symptoms, said Dr. William Boden of Buffalo General Hospital in New York. "Few would have expected such results."
(AP) Steven Nissen, M.D. poses at the 56th Annual American College of Cardiology Conference Scientific... Full Image He led the study and gave results Monday at a meeting of the American College of Cardiology. They also were published online by the New England Journal of Medicine and will be in the April 12 issue.
Angioplasty remains the top treatment for people having a heart attack or hospitalized with worsening symptoms. But most angioplasties are done on a non-emergency basis, to relieve chest pain caused by clogged arteries crimping the heart's blood supply.
Those patients now should try drugs first, experts say. If that does not help, they can consider angioplasty or bypass surgery, which unlike angioplasty, does save lives, prevent heart attacks and give lasting chest pain relief.
In the study, only one-third of the people treated with drugs ultimately needed angioplasty or a bypass.
"You are not putting yourself at risk of death or heart attack if you defer," and considering the safety worries about heart stents used to keep arteries open after angioplasty, it may be wise to wait, said Dr. Steven Nissen, a Cleveland Clinic heart specialist and president of the College of Cardiology.
(AP) James Dove, M.D. President elect, left, William S. Weintraub, M.D., center and William E. Boden,... Full Image Why did angioplasty not help more?
It fixes only one blockage at a time whereas drugs affect all the arteries, experts said. Also, the clogs treated with angioplasty are not the really dangerous kind.
"Even though it goes against intuition, the blockages that are severe that cause chest pain are less likely to be the source of a heart attack than segments in the artery that are not severely blocked," said Dr. David Maron, a Vanderbilt University cardiologist who helped lead the new study.
Drugs are better today than they used to be, and do a surprisingly good job, said Dr. Elizabeth Nabel, director of the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute.
"It may not be as bad as we thought" to leave the artery alone, she said.
About 1.2 million angioplasties are done in the United States each year. Through a blood vessel in the groin, doctors snake a tube to a blocked heart artery. A tiny balloon is inflated to flatten the clog and a mesh scaffold stent is usually placed.
The procedure already has lost some popularity because of emerging evidence that popular drug-coated stents can raise the risk of blood clots months later. The new study shifts the argument from which type of stent to use to whether to do the procedure at all.
It involved 2,287 patients throughout the U.S. and Canada who had substantial blockages, typically in two arteries, but were medically stable. They had an average of 10 chest pain episodes a week - moderately severe. About 40 percent had a prior heart attack.
"We deliberately chose to enroll a sicker, more symptomatic group" to give angioplasty a good chance to prove itself, Boden said.
All were treated with medicines that improve chest pain and heart and artery health such as aspirin, cholesterol-lowering statins, nitrates, ACE inhibitors, beta-blockers and calcium channel blockers. All also were counseled on healthy lifestyles - diet, exercise and smoking cessation.
Half of the participants also were assigned to get angioplasty.
After an average of 4 1/2 years, the groups had similar rates of death and heart attack: 211 in the angioplasty group and 202 in the medication group - about 19 percent of each.
Heart-related hospitalization rates were similar, too.
Neither treatment proved better for any subgroups like smokers, diabetics, or older or sicker people.
At the start of the study, 80 percent had chest pain. Three years into it, 72 percent of the angioplasty group was free of this symptom as was 67 percent of the drug group.
That means you would have to give angioplasties to 20 people for every one whose chest pain was better after three years - an unacceptably high ratio, Nissen said.
After five years, 74 percent of the angioplasty group and 72 percent of the medication group were free of chest pain - "no significant difference," Boden said.
The study was funded by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, the Medical Research Council of Canada and a host of drug companies. Stent makers refused to help pay for the research, said scientists who led the study.
The study renewed a heated animosity between doctors who perform angioplasty and other heart specialists.
In fact, one who does the procedures and who spoke at a meeting in New Orleans sponsored by stent maker Boston Scientific Corp. (BSX) was responsible for the early release of the study's results, which were not due out until Tuesday.
The study "was rigged to fail, and it did," the Wall Street Journal quoted Dr. Martin B. Leon of Columbia University telling several hundred of his colleagues Sunday night.
"A lot of people have been taking shots at us, and we need to go on the offense for awhile," the Journal reported Leon said.
He claimed to have inside knowledge of the results because he reviewed the study for the New England Journal. The journal would not comment, saying the identity of its reviewers is confidential.
The cardiology college issued a statement saying it was "extremely disappointed" results were released prematurely, "betraying the confidentiality of the scholarly process and the professional integrity of the scientific community."
The college "will be considering strong sanctions against the individual or individuals involved," the statement said.
Boston Scientific shares fell $1.05, or 6.6 percent, to close at $14.22 on the New York Stock Exchange at double their average volume.
Dr. Spencer King of Piedmont Hospital in Atlanta, a leading cardiologist who does many angioplasties, said he was disappointed in the study results.
"How many patients have interventions in which the only expectation is to reduce the use of nitroglycerin or to walk a bit faster? Most patients anticipate a better prognosis and might opt for an extended course of medical therapy if they believe they are not putting their life at excess risk," he wrote in a recent editorial in an American Heart Association journal.
In an interview at the cardiology meeting, King said he recently had surgery for back pain and did not expect permanent relief but added, "If it only held up for five years, I wouldn't be happy about it."
The new study "should lead to changes in the treatment of patients with stable coronary artery disease, with expected substantial health care savings," Dr. Judith Hochman of New York University wrote in an editorial in the journal.
An angioplasty costs roughly $40,000. The drugs used in the study are almost all available in generic form.
Maron, the Vanderbilt doctor who helped lead the study, said people should give the drugs a chance.
"Often I think that patients are under the impression that unless they have that procedure done, they're not getting the best of care and are at increased risk of having a heart attack and die," he said.
Dr. Raymond Gibbons, a Mayo Clinic cardiologist and American Heart Association president, agreed: "This trial shows convincingly that that assumption is incorrect."
Mark Probert - 30 Mar 2007 13:09 GMT > www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the media at the 56th Annual... > Full Image Thanks for posting this. It shows that real medicine is constantly evaluating its methods for efficacy.
Now we need a Boden study for implants...
> > [quoted text clipped - 184 lines] > Association president, agreed: "This trial shows convincingly that > that assumption is incorrect." PeterB - 30 Mar 2007 14:00 GMT > >www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks for posting this. It shows that real medicine is constantly > evaluating its methods for efficacy. All medicine is "real" if it does more harm than good, Markey. Unfortunately, you and your sponsors were unable to respond to the "35 most profitable drug list" challenge calling for risk-adjusted outcomes even after it was posted repeatedly. That data is not considered beneficial to your sponsors' marketing schemes and thus your silence was to be expected. Of course, you are free to respond to the challenge at any time, but I know you won't, as that would require integrity and intellectual honesty, neither of which you have.
PeterB
Mark Probert - 31 Mar 2007 04:16 GMT >>> www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm >>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > All medicine is "real" if it does more harm than good, Markey. No, idiot, it is not. Real Medicine is a term that is used to refer to evidence back, science supported, medical treatments. This is opposed to SCAM (*S*o-*C*alled *A*lternative *M*edicine).
> Unfortunately, you and your sponsors Listen, cleanse-byproduct-for-brains, you keep saying that, but you keep weaseling out of proving that. Of course, you cannot, as it is one of your illogical tactics used by fact-challenged morons like you to avoid proving any of your claims.
were unable to respond to the "35
> most profitable drug list" challenge calling for risk-adjusted > outcomes even after it was posted repeatedly. Bif f'cking deal. Knowing how you move goalposts, use semantics, lack logic, and have yet to demonstrate a knowledge of statistics, etc, there was no reason to post anything.
That data is not
> considered beneficial to your sponsors' marketing schemes and thus > your silence was to be expected. You seem to know it, so why not post it? Because YOU cannot.
Of course, you are free to respond
> to the challenge at any time, but I know you won't, as that would > require integrity and intellectual honesty, neither of which you have. Petey, you are always free to pull your head out of your a.s.
PeterB - 31 Mar 2007 18:52 GMT On Mar 30, 11:16 pm, Mark Probert <markprob...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
> >>>www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm > >>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > No, idiot, it is not. Real Medicine is a term that is used to refer to > evidence back, science supported, medical treatments. Markey, any notion that you understand medical science is so hilarious that I have to assume you are practicising a routine from your comedy class. Thanks for a good laugh.
> This is opposed to > SCAM (*S*o-*C*alled *A*lternative *M*edicine). Is that supposed to be a meaningful comment of some kind?
> > Unfortunately, you and your sponsors > > Listen, cleanse-byproduct-for-brains, you keep saying that, but you keep > weaseling out of proving that. Of course, you cannot, as it is one of > your illogical tactics used by fact-challenged morons like you to avoid > proving any of your claims. Shut up and pay attention. We all know you deny it because it's true, otherwise you would have kill-filed me a long time ago. Same for the rest of your motley little crew of pharmonkeys. A thousand times you'll deny it because a thousand times it is raised, and your sponsors won't permit you to remain silent. Catch22, anyone? And that, Markey, is called the "Flush."
> were unable to respond to the "35 > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > logic, and have yet to demonstrate a knowledge of statistics, etc, there > was no reason to post anything. Even if the data existed, I'm afraid you would not have the basic intelligence to respond to such a challenge. The fact it doesn't exist is proof that your "evidence-based medicine" is only an illusion, just like all the other vacuous claims in slimey little playbook.
> That data is not > > > considered beneficial to your sponsors' marketing schemes and thus > > your silence was to be expected. > > You seem to know it, so why not post it? Because YOU cannot. Markey knows it doesn't exist and that, even if it did, he would not be permitted to post it. He also knows I only ask him questions I already know the answers to. For example: Hey, Markey, are you an idiot? Yes, Markey is an idiot. See?
> Of course, you are free to respond > > > to the challenge at any time, but I know you won't, as that would > > require integrity and intellectual honesty, neither of which you have. > > Petey, you are always free to pull your head out of your a.s. Your a.s *is* your head, Butt-for-brains. And no, Charmin won't clean up Uranus. Pharmonkeys like you are smelly for life.
PeterB
Mark Probert - 01 Apr 2007 04:21 GMT > On Mar 30, 11:16 pm, Mark Probert <markprob...@lumbercartel.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > that I have to assume you are practicising a routine from your comedy > class. Thanks for a good laugh. Dumbo, listen, I know more about medical science, and most other things, than you will ever know. In fact, I have forgotten more that you will ever know.
>> This is opposed to >> SCAM (*S*o-*C*alled *A*lternative *M*edicine). > > Is that supposed to be a meaningful comment of some kind? Meaningful enough for you to have commented on it.
>>> Unfortunately, you and your sponsors >> Listen, cleanse-byproduct-for-brains, you keep saying that, but you keep [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Shut up and pay attention. There ya go agin, chanting the altie mantra of telling intelligent people to shut up because you are suffering from factophobia.
> We all know you deny it because it's true, > otherwise you would have kill-filed me a long time ago. Wrong cleanse-byproduct-for-brains. I do not kill file ANYONE, and, in your case, I make sure I read your posts for the humor value.
>`Same for the > rest of your motley little crew of pharmonkeys. Yes, you are so unsure of yourself that you have to resort to marginalizing those who show you for what you are.
A thousand times
> you'll deny it because a thousand times it is raised, and your > sponsors won't permit you to remain silent. Catch22, anyone? And > that, Markey, is called the "Flush." First you whinny and whine that no one took up your bogus challenge, now you bleat and bray that we are not allowd to remain silent.
Do try to get your head out of your anus and hope for a brain transplant.
>> were unable to respond to the "35 >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Even if the data existed, I'm afraid you would not have the basic > intelligence to respond to such a challenge. Oh, so now you admit that the data does not exist. You were playing a stupd a.shole game by asking for something that does not exist. I can do that too. Petey, please post something that shows you hae a functioning grey cell.
The fact it doesn't
> exist is proof that your "evidence-based medicine" is only an > illusion, just like all the other vacuous claims in slimey little [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > be permitted to post it. He also knows I only ask him questions I > already know the answers to. Of course you ask questions about non-existent things, because your intelligence is non-existent.
For example: Hey, Markey, are you an
> idiot? Yes, Markey is an idiot. See? This "idiot" saw through you, moron. Now, who is the idiot?
>> Of course, you are free to respond >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Your a.s *is* your head, Butt-for-brains. And no, Charmin won't clean > up Uranus. Pharmonkeys like you are smelly for life. You live a very brown life.
> PeterB PeterB - 31 Mar 2007 18:57 GMT On Mar 30, 11:16 pm, Mark Probert <markprob...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
> >>>www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm > >>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > No, idiot, it is not. Real Medicine is a term that is used to refer to > evidence back, science supported, medical treatments. Markey, any notion that you understand medical science is so hilarious that I have to assume you are practicising a routine from your comedy class. Thanks for a good laugh.
> This is opposed to > SCAM (*S*o-*C*alled *A*lternative *M*edicine). Is that supposed to be a meaningful comment of some kind?
> > Unfortunately, you and your sponsors > > Listen, cleanse-byproduct-for-brains, you keep saying that, but you keep > weaseling out of proving that. Of course, you cannot, as it is one of > your illogical tactics used by fact-challenged morons like you to avoid > proving any of your claims. Shut up and pay attention. We all know you deny it because it's true, otherwise you would have kill-filed me a long time ago. Same for the rest of your motley little crew of pharmonkeys. A thousand times you'll deny it because a thousand times it is raised, and your sponsors won't permit you to remain silent. Catch22, anyone? And that, Markey, is called the "Flush."
> were unable to respond to the "35 > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > logic, and have yet to demonstrate a knowledge of statistics, etc, there > was no reason to post anything. Even if the data existed, I'm afraid you would not have the basic intelligence to respond to such a challenge. The fact it doesn't exist is proof that your "evidence-based medicine" is only an illusion, just like all the other vacuous claims in your slimey little playbook.
> That data is not > > > considered beneficial to your sponsors' marketing schemes and thus > > your silence was to be expected. > > You seem to know it, so why not post it? Because YOU cannot. Markey knows it doesn't exist and that, even if it did, he would not be permitted to post it. He also knows I only ask him questions I already know the answers to. For example: Hey, Markey, are you an idiot? Yes, Markey is an idiot. See?
> Of course, you are free to respond > > > to the challenge at any time, but I know you won't, as that would > > require integrity and intellectual honesty, neither of which you have. > > Petey, you are always free to pull your head out of your a.s. Your a.s *is* your head, Butt-for-brains. And no, Charmin won't clean up Uranus. Pharmonkeys like you are smelly for life.
PeterB
Jan Drew - 01 Apr 2007 03:41 GMT >>>> www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm >>>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > No, idiot, it is not. Real Medicine is a term that is used to refer to > evidence back, science supported, medical treatments. How much of this real so-called medicine has been proven?
News Flash: *Supported* doesn't get it. Liars support liars.
>> Unfortunately, you and your sponsors > > Listen, cleanse-byproduct-for-brains, you keep saying that, but you keep > weaseling out of proving that. Of course, you cannot, as it is one of your > illogical tactics used by fact-challenged morons like you to avoid proving > any of your claims. You have a whole list that you have never proven.
so you admit that you discriminated against children who were developmentally delayed and could not be potty trained before the age of 3.
Mark Probert Makes Another Claim. Let's See* IF* He Can PROVE It!
You made a claim that you were a licensed babysitter. I was "just curious"?
Re: Researcher (Sandra Cabot) and theWarns of Cancer Risk From rBGH (non-organic) Dairy Foods
http://tinyurl.com/d4b23
http://tinyurl.com/c3qua
http://tinyurl.com/7985k
http://tinyurl.com/9l6sh
http://tinyurl.com/cyhmt
As I pointed out to the moron, he is far from ill.
You STILL have not shown WHERE you pointed this out!
>You made a claim that you were a licensed babysitter. I was "just curious"? You STILL haven't shown us WHERE I madede that claim!
You see, you complained that I called Ilena at her ADVERTISED phone listing.
You STILL haven't shown WHERE I did any such thing.
>The thread started with a claim that vaccines suppress the immune system. >You agreed. Please do copy and paste where I agreed. You STILL haven't done so.
>An one-time troll, screw-loose nutcase posted some diatriber and you now attack someone who has posted here for years.
>> Attacking?? Just WHERE did Debbee attack DC?
Please post the attacking!
You STILL haven't been able to do so.
>You admitted that you stalked me to asbi. OOOOps. Do copy and paste this >claim. You STILL haven't been able to do so.
Jul 2 2004
> Vaxa has been making claims for years. The FTC/FDA are reviewing them now. > Do show us they are being reviewed. I filed a complaint with the FTC after > I reviewed the URL you posted and saw the egregious violations. If and > when I hear from the FTC, I will let you know. ==
so you admit that you discriminated against children who were developmentally delayed and could not be potty trained before the age of 3.
There was no lump, lump head.
Jan 9th, 2006
Haley testifies for a fee, ergo, he is a professional expert witness.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/c74c400a73fdd79b
Wed, Mar 16 2005 4:20 pm
I will, as of this posting, Wednesday, March 16, 2005, at 4:20 PM EST, unconditionally cease and desist from posting to Ilena, about Ilena or in response to Ilena.
I hope that you, who have been a supporter of hers, will now move and directly ask her to do the same thing. Further, if she ceases her actions towards me, I will render the posts in the Fan Club unreadable. If she removes any and all webpages regarding me and/or my family, the Fan Club will cease to exist. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's only for starters, hypocrite.
> were unable to respond to the "35 >> most profitable drug list" challenge calling for risk-adjusted >> outcomes even after it was posted repeatedly. > > Bif f'cking Hmm.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/ef8ee413f80b4a37
I read Torah every day
> Petey, you are always free to pull your head out of your a.s. ===
So much for Mark's claims......
Peter Bowditch - 01 Apr 2007 05:02 GMT >>>>> www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm >>>>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >How much of this real so-called medicine has been proven? Name some things which have not been proven, Jan? Please be specific.
<snip weirdness>
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
bigvince - 01 Apr 2007 05:44 GMT > >>>>>www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm > >>>>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET) [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Australian Skepticshttp://www.skeptics.com.au > To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com The risk benefit of Zelnorm as it is now being pulled off the market. The benefit of Late PCI or angioplasty which has JUST BEEN STUDIED and shown to have no benefit. The benefits of stents which again were started BEFORE they were studied are now being studied and who are being guestioned. The thousands of drugs that are used off label every day. MDS. use these drugs for conditions they were never evaluated for. A recent BMI article came to the conclusion that only about 15% of the treatments in use today have really good evidence to support there use. Off label means a Doctor uses a ADD drug for weight controll ect.
David Wright - 10 Apr 2007 04:19 GMT >The risk benefit of Zelnorm as it is now being pulled off the market. >The benefit of Late PCI or angioplasty which has JUST BEEN STUDIED and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >there use. Off label means a Doctor uses a ADD drug for weight >controll ect. That "15%" figure sounds like a massive distortion of that 1978 study from the Office of Technology Assessment. I have no idea what "BMI" is supposed to be; the only meaning I know of for it is "basal metabolic index."
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "HPV shots don't cause promiscuity. Tequila shots do." -- Bill Maher
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