Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / Alternative / April 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Study: Most Angioplasties Unneeded  (????)

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Ilena Rose - 29 Mar 2007 01:26 GMT
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm

Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET)

By MARILYNN MARCHIONE

(AP) William E. Boden, M.D. shows the shape of a stent as he speaks to
the media at the 56th Annual...
Full Image




NEW ORLEANS (AP) - More than half a million people a year with chest
pain are getting an unnecessary or premature procedure to unclog their
arteries because drugs are just as effective, suggests a landmark
study that challenges one of the most common practices in heart care.

The stunning results found that angioplasty did not save lives or
prevent heart attacks in non-emergency heart patients.

An even bigger surprise: Angioplasty gave only slight and temporary
relief from chest pain, the main reason it is done.

"By five years, there was really no significant difference" in
symptoms, said Dr. William Boden of Buffalo General Hospital in New
York. "Few would have expected such results."


(AP) Steven Nissen, M.D. poses at the 56th Annual American College of
Cardiology Conference Scientific...
Full Image


He led the study and gave results Monday at a meeting of the American
College of Cardiology. They also were published online by the New
England Journal of Medicine and will be in the April 12 issue.

Angioplasty remains the top treatment for people having a heart attack
or hospitalized with worsening symptoms. But most angioplasties are
done on a non-emergency basis, to relieve chest pain caused by clogged
arteries crimping the heart's blood supply.

Those patients now should try drugs first, experts say. If that does
not help, they can consider angioplasty or bypass surgery, which
unlike angioplasty, does save lives, prevent heart attacks and give
lasting chest pain relief.

In the study, only one-third of the people treated with drugs
ultimately needed angioplasty or a bypass.

"You are not putting yourself at risk of death or heart attack if you
defer," and considering the safety worries about heart stents used to
keep arteries open after angioplasty, it may be wise to wait, said Dr.
Steven Nissen, a Cleveland Clinic heart specialist and president of
the College of Cardiology.


(AP) James Dove, M.D. President elect, left, William S. Weintraub,
M.D., center and William E. Boden,...
Full Image


Why did angioplasty not help more?

It fixes only one blockage at a time whereas drugs affect all the
arteries, experts said. Also, the clogs treated with angioplasty are
not the really dangerous kind.

"Even though it goes against intuition, the blockages that are severe
that cause chest pain are less likely to be the source of a heart
attack than segments in the artery that are not severely blocked,"
said Dr. David Maron, a Vanderbilt University cardiologist who helped
lead the new study.

Drugs are better today than they used to be, and do a surprisingly
good job, said Dr. Elizabeth Nabel, director of the National Heart,
Lung and Blood Institute.

"It may not be as bad as we thought" to leave the artery alone, she
said.

About 1.2 million angioplasties are done in the United States each
year. Through a blood vessel in the groin, doctors snake a tube to a
blocked heart artery. A tiny balloon is inflated to flatten the clog
and a mesh scaffold stent is usually placed.

The procedure already has lost some popularity because of emerging
evidence that popular drug-coated stents can raise the risk of blood
clots months later. The new study shifts the argument from which type
of stent to use to whether to do the procedure at all.

It involved 2,287 patients throughout the U.S. and Canada who had
substantial blockages, typically in two arteries, but were medically
stable. They had an average of 10 chest pain episodes a week -
moderately severe. About 40 percent had a prior heart attack.

"We deliberately chose to enroll a sicker, more symptomatic group" to
give angioplasty a good chance to prove itself, Boden said.

All were treated with medicines that improve chest pain and heart and
artery health such as aspirin, cholesterol-lowering statins, nitrates,
ACE inhibitors, beta-blockers and calcium channel blockers. All also
were counseled on healthy lifestyles - diet, exercise and smoking
cessation.

Half of the participants also were assigned to get angioplasty.

After an average of 4 1/2 years, the groups had similar rates of death
and heart attack: 211 in the angioplasty group and 202 in the
medication group - about 19 percent of each.

Heart-related hospitalization rates were similar, too.

Neither treatment proved better for any subgroups like smokers,
diabetics, or older or sicker people.

At the start of the study, 80 percent had chest pain. Three years into
it, 72 percent of the angioplasty group was free of this symptom as
was 67 percent of the drug group.

That means you would have to give angioplasties to 20 people for every
one whose chest pain was better after three years - an unacceptably
high ratio, Nissen said.

After five years, 74 percent of the angioplasty group and 72 percent
of the medication group were free of chest pain - "no significant
difference," Boden said.

The study was funded by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, the
Medical Research Council of Canada and a host of drug companies. Stent
makers refused to help pay for the research, said scientists who led
the study.

The study renewed a heated animosity between doctors who perform
angioplasty and other heart specialists.

In fact, one who does the procedures and who spoke at a meeting in New
Orleans sponsored by stent maker Boston Scientific Corp. (BSX) was
responsible for the early release of the study's results, which were
not due out until Tuesday.

The study "was rigged to fail, and it did," the Wall Street Journal
quoted Dr. Martin B. Leon of Columbia University telling several
hundred of his colleagues Sunday night.

"A lot of people have been taking shots at us, and we need to go on
the offense for awhile," the Journal reported Leon said.

He claimed to have inside knowledge of the results because he reviewed
the study for the New England Journal. The journal would not comment,
saying the identity of its reviewers is confidential.

The cardiology college issued a statement saying it was "extremely
disappointed" results were released prematurely, "betraying the
confidentiality of the scholarly process and the professional
integrity of the scientific community."

The college "will be considering strong sanctions against the
individual or individuals involved," the statement said.

Boston Scientific shares fell $1.05, or 6.6 percent, to close at
$14.22 on the New York Stock Exchange at double their average volume.

Dr. Spencer King of Piedmont Hospital in Atlanta, a leading
cardiologist who does many angioplasties, said he was disappointed in
the study results.

"How many patients have interventions in which the only expectation is
to reduce the use of nitroglycerin or to walk a bit faster? Most
patients anticipate a better prognosis and might opt for an extended
course of medical therapy if they believe they are not putting their
life at excess risk," he wrote in a recent editorial in an American
Heart Association journal.

In an interview at the cardiology meeting, King said he recently had
surgery for back pain and did not expect permanent relief but added,
"If it only held up for five years, I wouldn't be happy about it."

The new study "should lead to changes in the treatment of patients
with stable coronary artery disease, with expected substantial health
care savings," Dr. Judith Hochman of New York University wrote in an
editorial in the journal.

An angioplasty costs roughly $40,000. The drugs used in the study are
almost all available in generic form.

Maron, the Vanderbilt doctor who helped lead the study, said people
should give the drugs a chance.

"Often I think that patients are under the impression that unless they
have that procedure done, they're not getting the best of care and are
at increased risk of having a heart attack and die," he said.

Dr. Raymond Gibbons, a Mayo Clinic cardiologist and American Heart
Association president, agreed: "This trial shows convincingly that
that assumption is incorrect."
Mark Probert - 30 Mar 2007 13:09 GMT
> www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the media at the 56th Annual...
> Full Image

Thanks for posting this. It shows that real medicine is constantly
evaluating its methods for efficacy.

Now we need a Boden study for implants...

>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 184 lines]
> Association president, agreed: "This trial shows convincingly that
> that assumption is incorrect."
PeterB - 30 Mar 2007 14:00 GMT
> >www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Thanks for posting this. It shows that real medicine is constantly
> evaluating its methods for efficacy.

All medicine is "real" if it does more harm than good, Markey.
Unfortunately, you and your sponsors were unable to respond to the "35
most profitable drug list" challenge calling for risk-adjusted
outcomes even after it was posted repeatedly.  That data is not
considered beneficial to your sponsors' marketing schemes and thus
your silence was to be expected.  Of course, you are free to respond
to the challenge at any time, but I know you won't, as that would
require integrity and intellectual honesty, neither of which you have.

PeterB
Mark Probert - 31 Mar 2007 04:16 GMT
>>> www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm
>>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> All medicine is "real" if it does more harm than good, Markey.

No, idiot, it is not. Real Medicine is a term that is used to refer to
evidence back, science supported, medical treatments. This is opposed to
SCAM (*S*o-*C*alled *A*lternative *M*edicine).

> Unfortunately, you and your sponsors

Listen, cleanse-byproduct-for-brains, you keep saying that, but you keep
weaseling out of proving that. Of course, you cannot, as it is one of
your illogical tactics used by fact-challenged morons like you to avoid
proving any of your claims.

were unable to respond to the "35
> most profitable drug list" challenge calling for risk-adjusted
> outcomes even after it was posted repeatedly.  

Bif f'cking deal. Knowing how you move goalposts, use semantics, lack
logic, and have yet to demonstrate a knowledge of statistics, etc, there
was no reason to post anything.

That data is not
> considered beneficial to your sponsors' marketing schemes and thus
> your silence was to be expected.  

You seem to know it, so why not post it? Because YOU cannot.

Of course, you are free to respond
> to the challenge at any time, but I know you won't, as that would
> require integrity and intellectual honesty, neither of which you have.

Petey, you are always free to pull your head out of your a.s.
PeterB - 31 Mar 2007 18:52 GMT
On Mar 30, 11:16 pm, Mark Probert <markprob...@lumbercartel.com>
wrote:
> >>>www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm
> >>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> No, idiot, it is not. Real Medicine is a term that is used to refer to
> evidence back, science supported, medical treatments.

Markey, any notion that you understand medical science is so hilarious
that I have to assume you are practicising a routine from your comedy
class.  Thanks for a good laugh.

> This is opposed to
> SCAM (*S*o-*C*alled *A*lternative *M*edicine).

Is that supposed to be a meaningful comment of some kind?

> > Unfortunately, you and your sponsors
>
> Listen, cleanse-byproduct-for-brains, you keep saying that, but you keep
> weaseling out of proving that. Of course, you cannot, as it is one of
> your illogical tactics used by fact-challenged morons like you to avoid
> proving any of your claims.

Shut up and pay attention.  We all know you deny it because it's true,
otherwise you would have kill-filed me a long time ago.  Same for the
rest of your motley little crew of pharmonkeys.  A thousand times
you'll deny it because a thousand times it is raised, and your
sponsors won't permit you to remain silent.  Catch22, anyone?  And
that, Markey, is called the "Flush."

> were unable to respond to the "35
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> logic, and have yet to demonstrate a knowledge of statistics, etc, there
> was no reason to post anything.

Even if the data existed, I'm afraid you would not have the basic
intelligence to respond to such a challenge.  The fact it doesn't
exist is proof that your "evidence-based medicine" is only an
illusion, just like all the other vacuous claims in slimey little
playbook.

> That data is not
>
> > considered beneficial to your sponsors' marketing schemes and thus
> > your silence was to be expected.  
>
> You seem to know it, so why not post it? Because YOU cannot.

Markey knows it doesn't exist and that, even if it did, he would not
be permitted to post it.  He also knows I only ask him questions I
already know the answers to.  For example:  Hey, Markey, are you an
idiot?   Yes, Markey is an idiot.  See?

> Of course, you are free to respond
>
> > to the challenge at any time, but I know you won't, as that would
> > require integrity and intellectual honesty, neither of which you have.
>
> Petey, you are always free to pull your head out of your a.s.

Your a.s *is* your head, Butt-for-brains.  And no, Charmin won't clean
up Uranus.  Pharmonkeys like you are smelly for life.

PeterB
Mark Probert - 01 Apr 2007 04:21 GMT
> On Mar 30, 11:16 pm, Mark Probert <markprob...@lumbercartel.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> that I have to assume you are practicising a routine from your comedy
> class.  Thanks for a good laugh.

Dumbo, listen, I know more about medical science, and most other things,
than you will ever know. In fact, I have forgotten more that you will
ever know.

>> This is opposed to
>> SCAM (*S*o-*C*alled *A*lternative *M*edicine).
>
> Is that supposed to be a meaningful comment of some kind?

Meaningful enough for you to have commented on it.

>>> Unfortunately, you and your sponsors
>> Listen, cleanse-byproduct-for-brains, you keep saying that, but you keep
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Shut up and pay attention.  

There ya go agin, chanting the altie mantra of telling intelligent
people to shut up because you are suffering from factophobia.

> We all know you deny it because it's true,
> otherwise you would have kill-filed me a long time ago.

Wrong cleanse-byproduct-for-brains. I do not kill file ANYONE, and, in
your case, I make sure I read your posts for the humor value.

>`Same for the
> rest of your motley little crew of pharmonkeys.  

Yes, you are so unsure of yourself that you have to resort to
marginalizing those who show you for what you are.

A thousand times
> you'll deny it because a thousand times it is raised, and your
> sponsors won't permit you to remain silent.  Catch22, anyone?  And
> that, Markey, is called the "Flush."

First you whinny and whine that no one took up your bogus challenge, now
you bleat and bray that we are not allowd to remain silent.

Do try to get your head out of your anus and hope for a brain transplant.

>> were unable to respond to the "35
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Even if the data existed, I'm afraid you would not have the basic
> intelligence to respond to such a challenge.  

Oh, so now you admit that the data does not exist. You were playing a
stupd a.shole game by asking for something that does not exist. I can do
that too. Petey, please post something that shows you hae a functioning
grey cell.

The fact it doesn't
> exist is proof that your "evidence-based medicine" is only an
> illusion, just like all the other vacuous claims in slimey little
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> be permitted to post it.  He also knows I only ask him questions I
> already know the answers to.  

Of course you ask questions about non-existent things, because your
intelligence is non-existent.

For example:  Hey, Markey, are you an
> idiot?   Yes, Markey is an idiot.  See?

This "idiot" saw through you, moron. Now, who is the idiot?

>> Of course, you are free to respond
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Your a.s *is* your head, Butt-for-brains.  And no, Charmin won't clean
> up Uranus.  Pharmonkeys like you are smelly for life.

You live a very brown life.

> PeterB
PeterB - 31 Mar 2007 18:57 GMT
On Mar 30, 11:16 pm, Mark Probert <markprob...@lumbercartel.com>
wrote:
> >>>www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm
> >>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> No, idiot, it is not. Real Medicine is a term that is used to refer to
> evidence back, science supported, medical treatments.

Markey, any notion that you understand medical science is so hilarious
that I have to assume you are practicising a routine from your comedy
class.  Thanks for a good laugh.

> This is opposed to
> SCAM (*S*o-*C*alled *A*lternative *M*edicine).

Is that supposed to be a meaningful comment of some kind?

> > Unfortunately, you and your sponsors
>
> Listen, cleanse-byproduct-for-brains, you keep saying that, but you keep
> weaseling out of proving that. Of course, you cannot, as it is one of
> your illogical tactics used by fact-challenged morons like you to avoid
> proving any of your claims.

Shut up and pay attention.  We all know you deny it because it's true,
otherwise you would have kill-filed me a long time ago.  Same for the
rest of your motley little crew of pharmonkeys.  A thousand times
you'll deny it because a thousand times it is raised, and your
sponsors won't permit you to remain silent.  Catch22, anyone?  And
that, Markey, is called the "Flush."

> were unable to respond to the "35
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> logic, and have yet to demonstrate a knowledge of statistics, etc, there
> was no reason to post anything.

Even if the data existed, I'm afraid you would not have the basic
intelligence to respond to such a challenge.  The fact it doesn't
exist is proof that your "evidence-based medicine" is only an
illusion, just like all the other vacuous claims in your slimey little
playbook.

> That data is not
>
> > considered beneficial to your sponsors' marketing schemes and thus
> > your silence was to be expected.
>
> You seem to know it, so why not post it? Because YOU cannot.

Markey knows it doesn't exist and that, even if it did, he would not
be permitted to post it.  He also knows I only ask him questions I
already know the answers to.  For example:  Hey, Markey, are you an
idiot?   Yes, Markey is an idiot.  See?

> Of course, you are free to respond
>
> > to the challenge at any time, but I know you won't, as that would
> > require integrity and intellectual honesty, neither of which you have.
>
> Petey, you are always free to pull your head out of your a.s.

Your a.s *is* your head, Butt-for-brains.  And no, Charmin won't clean
up Uranus.  Pharmonkeys like you are smelly for life.

PeterB
Jan Drew - 01 Apr 2007 03:41 GMT
>>>> www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm
>>>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> No, idiot, it is not. Real Medicine is a term that is used to refer to
> evidence back, science supported, medical treatments.

How much of this real so-called medicine has been proven?

News Flash:  *Supported* doesn't get it.  Liars support liars.

>> Unfortunately, you and your sponsors
>
> Listen, cleanse-byproduct-for-brains, you keep saying that, but you keep
> weaseling out of proving that. Of course, you cannot, as it is one of your
> illogical tactics used by fact-challenged morons like you to avoid proving
> any of your claims.

You have a whole list that you have never proven.

so you admit that you discriminated against children who were
developmentally delayed and could not be potty trained before the age of 3.

Mark Probert Makes Another Claim. Let's See* IF* He Can PROVE It!

You made a claim that you were a licensed babysitter. I was "just curious"?

Re: Researcher (Sandra Cabot) and theWarns of Cancer Risk From rBGH
(non-organic) Dairy Foods

http://tinyurl.com/d4b23

http://tinyurl.com/c3qua

http://tinyurl.com/7985k

http://tinyurl.com/9l6sh

http://tinyurl.com/cyhmt

As I pointed out to the moron, he is far from ill.

You STILL have not shown WHERE you pointed this out!

>You made a claim that you were a licensed babysitter. I was "just curious"?

You STILL haven't shown us WHERE I madede that claim!

You see, you complained  that I called Ilena at her ADVERTISED phone
listing.

You STILL haven't shown WHERE I did any such thing.

>The thread started with a claim that vaccines suppress the immune system.
>You agreed. Please do copy and paste where I agreed.

You STILL haven't done so.

>An one-time troll, screw-loose nutcase posted some diatriber and you now

attack someone who has posted here for years.

>> Attacking??

Just WHERE did Debbee attack DC?

Please post the attacking!

You STILL haven't been able to do so.

>You admitted that you stalked me to asbi. OOOOps. Do copy and paste this
>claim.

You STILL haven't been able to do so.

Jul 2 2004

> Vaxa has been making claims for years. The FTC/FDA are reviewing them now.
> Do show us they are being reviewed. I filed a complaint with the FTC after
> I reviewed the URL you posted and saw the egregious violations. If and
> when I hear from the FTC, I will let you know.
==

so you admit that you discriminated against children who were
developmentally delayed and could not be potty trained before the age of 3.

There was no lump, lump head.

Jan 9th, 2006

Haley testifies for a fee, ergo, he is a professional expert witness.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/c74c400a73fdd79b

Wed, Mar 16 2005 4:20 pm

I will, as of this posting, Wednesday, March 16, 2005, at 4:20 PM EST,
unconditionally cease and desist from posting to Ilena, about Ilena or in
response to Ilena.

I hope that you, who have been a supporter of hers, will now move and
directly ask her to do the same thing. Further, if she ceases her actions
towards me, I will render the posts in the Fan Club unreadable. If she
removes any and all webpages regarding me and/or my family, the Fan Club
will cease to exist.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's only for starters, hypocrite.

> were unable to respond to the "35
>> most profitable drug list" challenge calling for risk-adjusted
>> outcomes even after it was posted repeatedly.
>
> Bif f'cking

Hmm.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/ef8ee413f80b4a37

I read Torah every day

> Petey, you are always free to pull your head out of your a.s.

===

So much for Mark's claims......
Peter Bowditch - 01 Apr 2007 05:02 GMT
>>>>> www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm
>>>>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET)
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>How much of this real so-called medicine has been proven?

Name some things which have not been proven, Jan? Please be specific.

<snip weirdness>
Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

bigvince - 01 Apr 2007 05:44 GMT
> >>>>>www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm
> >>>>> Mar 28, 7:58 PM (ET)
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Australian Skepticshttp://www.skeptics.com.au
> To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

The risk benefit of Zelnorm as it is now being pulled off the market.
The benefit of Late PCI or angioplasty which has JUST BEEN STUDIED and
shown to have no benefit. The benefits of stents which again were
started BEFORE they were studied are now being studied and who are
being guestioned. The thousands of drugs that are used off label every
day. MDS.  use these drugs  for conditions they were never evaluated
for. A recent BMI article came to the conclusion that only about 15%
of the treatments in use today have really good evidence to support
there use. Off label means a Doctor uses a ADD drug for weight
controll ect.
David Wright - 10 Apr 2007 04:19 GMT
>The risk benefit of Zelnorm as it is now being pulled off the market.
>The benefit of Late PCI or angioplasty which has JUST BEEN STUDIED and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>there use. Off label means a Doctor uses a ADD drug for weight
>controll ect.

That "15%" figure sounds like a massive distortion of that 1978 study
from the Office of Technology Assessment.  I have no idea what "BMI"
is supposed to be; the only meaning I know of for it is "basal
metabolic index."  

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "HPV shots don't cause promiscuity.  Tequila shots do." -- Bill Maher
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.