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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / February 2007Ilena Banned Indefinitely From Editing on Wikipedia
As my three losing plaintiffs and their Cheerleaders celebrate... be assured I have plenty to say and will be updating my Wikipedia page about the happenings there! Having Barrett's Paul Lee (aka Fyslee) snivelling and whining and blaming me for his thoughts of "suicide" probably made the whole experience worthwhile ... I am very proud to have exposed to Wikipedia, just how totally UNRELIABLE commercial sources such as Quackwatch and his probably illegally operating NCAHF have used Wiki as a link farm ... and am thrilled to see Barrett's links getting biased and commerical links removed. Check back later! www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/Wikipedia.htm What did Ilena say??? "Probably made the whole experience worthwhile?????" Because a man became so traumatized by your behavior toward him that he had thoughts of "suicide"......just like that breast implant recipient woman several years ago who made the same claim about the treatment she received from you, Ilena? [Acting in your official capacity as the woman's breast implant advocate????] How do you sleep at night, you very evil spirited bitch? > As my three losing plaintiffs and their Cheerleaders celebrate... be > assured I have plenty to say and will be updating my Wikipedia page [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/Wikipedia.htm > What did Ilena say??? > "Probably made the whole experience worthwhile?????" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > How do you sleep at night, you very evil spirited bitch? Personal attacks against a known health activist tells me you are what you claim others to be. A review of the history of your posts shows you are in league with Stephen Barrett, whose anti-consumer antics are the reason why people like Illena do what they do. You should be ashamed. > Personal attacks against a known health activist tells me you are what > you claim others to be. A review of the history of your posts shows > you are in league with Stephen Barrett, whose anti-consumer antics are > the reason why people like Illena do what they do. You should be > ashamed. Peter - Your response here demonstrates you don't have a clear picture of the history here. Ilena Rosenthal is a self-embedded, self- appointed, NON-IMPLANTED breast implant "advocate". She has numerous webages hosted on the webspace of her non-profit, which libel and defame those actually harmed by breast implants. Coleah Penley-Ayres is one of those women. Coleah has been involved in the breast implant victim community for a decade or more. Often on the ASBI newsgroup, Coleah would side with Ilena Rosenthal, and act as the peace maker, when Ilena needed a "time out" to regroup, after she'd let her aligator mouth overload her hummingbird a.s. Coleah and Ilena remained close all those years, until Coleah (a Vietnam era Marine), expressed an opinion about the Iraq war, which differed from Ilena Rosenthal's. That difference was enough to catapault an "Ilena Rosenthal - Mine Enemies" webpage to the net. Peter it appears that you exhault the importance of the "advocate" more than those she claims to be advocating for. http://www.webstarmagic.com/wisletter.htm >> What did Ilena say??? >> "Probably made the whole experience worthwhile?????" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the reason why people like Illena do what they do. You should be > ashamed. Personal attacks? I call it as I see it....and I do question how an evil spirited bitch can sleep at night. I am ashamed of nothing, thank you. Check it out PeterB. Multiple people admitting having had 'suicidal' thoughts because of Ilena's advocacy 'treatment'. For Ilena to make fun of the results of her behavior on people brave enough to admit it, is disgusting. You can lick her feet....when you are done kiss her a.s. >>> What did Ilena say??? >>> "Probably made the whole experience worthwhile?????" [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > You can lick her feet....when you are done kiss her a.s. A practicing Christian? NOT!! http://www.ilena-rosenthal.com/coleah.html You forgot to post all the things you said about her. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/2bf2205119739cbb 'Whining Jew Bitch' You also forgot that you are a proven liar. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/41548bc27ea773f1 Apr 20 2004 "OOREROOM" <oorer...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040420125334.17234.00000145@mb-m11.aol.com... > >But had not a word to say about Andrew Kingoff's trivializing the ten > >commandments. > As a "Christian" Shold you not be keeping your nose out of someone elses > relationship to God, and his rules? Should you not be putting more focus > on forgiveness and less focus on judging the behavior of others? ************************************ I did some research and found the 'offending' 10 Commandments of which Jan complains. It is becoming clearer to me why they were written in the first place......as you will see in the copy of the second message toward the bottom. Sigh. Sigh. Sigh. It is no surpise. Coleah From: JKingoff (jking...@aol.com) Subject: The MHA Ten Commandments View this article only Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative Date: 2001-12-10 22:27:32 PST It has been forty days and forty nights since I last posted to Usenet. In that time, I have pondered the 10,000 thousand depths of the Great Tao. With a broad sword and clear understanding, from pure truth I have carved out these MHA Ten Commandments. These 10 Commandments which I post here today are the immutable laws of MHA posting. Heed these words. Know ye that language is a fragile vessel through which to convey meaning. Lo, the Internet is a medium fraught with a myriad of vagaries. Yet through these 10 Commandments, reasoned discourse, without the taint of commercialism, pseudo-science, and personal agendas, is possible. (In no particular order) Thou Shalt Not: Spam nor shalt thou shill Accept Anecdotes as Data Use MHA as a support group nor post you simply to gain attention Be a Health Pornographer nor a Health Slut Bash Conventional Medicine Be a Solipsist Violate Goodwin's law ------------------------- Thou Shalt: Respect Logic Be Skeptical Post References Now, I must again bid adieu. I am duly called back to my Zhenjuological Ministrations & Meditations. Fear not, for in time, I shall return to broaden and deepen the discourse and consciousness of these 10 Commandments.*********************************************From: JKingoff (jking...@aol.com)Subject: Re: Anger research View this article only Newsgroups: misc.health.alternativeDate: 2001-12-12 06:00:33 PST >In article <20011211175439.10181.00002...@mb-cl.aol.com>, >ils...@aol.com5554 (Ilsa Nein) wrote: >newly unveiled MHA 10 **Commandments. You could learn a lot... >QuackBarrett came down off the mountain himself for you ? More reading comprehension problems, Ilena? Read this very carefully: With my broadsword and a clear understanding, I carved these MHA 10 Commandments out of the PURE truth of the Great Dao. Now, Ilena, go memorize these MHA 10 Commandments, commit them to heart, and only post within their guidelines. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/3313d093b1a7bf01 Aug 15 2006 I don't know Andrew Kingoff or what he has to do with the price of tea in China. You are the one who posted about playing in your poop....little Ms. Altie. Funny though, it did not keep you out of the hospital where the horrid conventional doctors, practices and bad germs are waiting to kill you. http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/e09f62b1b04cb4b7 Mar 24 2004 Subject: Andrew Kingoff Defames Himself Or that you do reverse telephone searches postin the names, numbers and addresses of innocent people while calling others *nosey*. http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/bc9fe323cbba82df http://phone.people.yahoo.com/py/psPhoneEntry.py?firstname=James&last... Neighbors: http://www.reversephonedirectory.com/phonenumber/address/index.html?n... ~~~~ http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/5a3b6d97449b2e9d **COLEAH SAYS: Ho, ho, ho! http://www.onlinerummaging.com/asbi There were 8 or 9 people sending in their 'rendition' of how you look to them. BTW - Ms. Narcissism, Jan has her share of the artistic works there also (but how nice that you take credit for ALL The issue was not about "$$$ from my back pockets" you BITCH. YOU DENIED THAT YOU EVER GOT WOMEN'S NAMES, INFORMATION AND EMAIL ADDRESSES FROM MY WEBSITE.....PERIOD. You are a LIAR, A CHEAT and A FRAUD. And you coveted those people like you owned them. Never giving THEM an opportunity to get involved in anything outside your private little world for them. Never giving them a choice in the matter of what was available to them. We're not talking about a stinking line of code either. For the 3rd party link I had log into the 3rd party site, gather the new entries and transfer all the information into a separate email to send to you. You Ungrateful Bitch! Then there were two separate "Promote Ilena" webpages on the site. You Ungrateful Bitch. http://www.onlinerummaging.com/asbi/joinlist.html Now....does THAT look familiar? along with this?: http://www.onlinerummaging.com/asbi/il.htm YOU SAID "W R O N G".............AND YOU ARE A SACK OF sh.t LIAR. Now that you are caught with your smelly pants down, and shown proof that you got lot's of referrals off my website you want to twist and turn things away from your original statement. No, no Bitch! YOU SAID "WRONG" That isn't the issue you ungrateful bitch. YOU LIED ABOUT EVER GETTING REFERRALS OFF MY WEBSITE .... PERIOD. AND NOW THAT YOUR PANTS ARE DOWN AROUND YOUR ANKLES, YOU STILL CAN'T ADMIT YOU L I E D......... NO, YOU HAVE TO WRITE SOME SARCASTIC HALF-a.s "THANKS FOR THE LINK". YOU ARE WITHOUT A DOUBT THE MOST, SELF-CENTERED UNGRATEFUL PIECE OF ARROGANT sh.t I'VE EVER RUN ACROSS. YOU ARE DEAD MEAT. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/3bc9fbd6ff1e985f Jan 12 2005 http://www.onlinerummaging.com/asbi Yesterday's newspaper..................I told you I removed that "webPAGE" last week. http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/17462d0e2e746af2 Jan 11 2005 People are on earth to express their love and acceptance of one another. With some folks we have a harder time accepting even one cell about them that is lovable, so our communication with them is.....ah, at a pretty low level. It's a waste of time to dwell too long with our 'low-level loved ones', for we also appear as such. I hope you don't get stuck in that muck, as I have in the past. Coleah http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/0609c321f98fdb50 Apr 3 2005 Your nose? You mean the one with fat nostriles? http://www.onlinerummaging.com/asbi/47.jpg http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/b064e7eb8feb492a Jan 23 2006 Picky, picky..... We can see that it is causing skin off your long pointy nose.... http://www.onlinerummaging.com/asbi/47.jpg Jan=Chicken-sh.t Covert Bitch Again, if you can't handle who I am on this planet, sit on it and twirl. You are such an 'uplifting' Christian! I'll bet you've lead many people to Christ on these newsgroups you have invaded....er, pestered....ah.....posted to. > http://www.pacifier.com/~coleah/> Come on in SOME THINGS I AM UP TO IN > LIFE Our Daily Dread...to start the day Jan. 23, 2006 Lead Them To Jesus. People who have such a gigantic problem with how/when/where/why I worship (or don't) get bent over for the 'ole battery acid enema. Like I said Jan....you are so over due for your attitude adjustment. Leopold 14:3 http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/c3f9048bb7b6c1a1 Feb23 2004 Jan, as a practicing Christian (and I say 'practicing' because I know I'm never going to be a 'perfect' Christian) I hurt inside when I read open conflicts containing ethic words or arguments about different religions. Your words (above) that God forgives us 'the way we forgive others' really hit home to me in a special way. It reminded me that each of us is an example of God's love, in action, through us....in our own lives. I thought of times when it was easy to display God's forgiveness, such as instantly excusing the person in a grocery line who banged into me with a cart. They don't have to say they are sorry and I don't have to use words to express my forgiveness, a little smile at the person will do. Turning the other cheek, so to speak. A really hard time to display God's forgiveness comes up when I am really, really bound by anger and resentment for something someone said or did. Boy-oh-boy, no instant excusing or sweet little smile lives inside me then, for whoever that unfortunate person happens to be! Then I wonder if God really doesn't forgive me something's for a long, long time. Hmmmm. The way I don't forgive others for a long, long time? Does God have to forgive us? Do we have to forgive others? If not, under what circumstances? Questions to ponder. I am reminded of an attorney I went to for a divorce in the early 1980's. He went to the same church I was attending. He could see that I was, ah....deeply withdrawn into a very dark place inside myself (I now call it hell-on-earth as a characterization). Certainly I was not open to having God express through me regarding the soon to be ex, his family, friends, and other men who looked, dressed, talked or walked like him. I'm not sure, but I'm sure I wasn't smiling at grocery store cart bangers then either (the darkness tends to seep out to others when one has anger and resentment strongly about just one person who did us wrong.) That's when the attorney reminded me of what I needed to do. Surround him with white light and acknowledge the goodness inside my soon to be ex. Ho, ho, ho, did the attorney find me a resistant participant with that one! But being the genuinely caring and loving person the attorney was, he worked with me and would not let me leave his office until I agreed that whenever I saw, talked to or thought about my soon to be ex I would repeat these words (through gritted teeth BTW) until the feeling of major upset subsided: "Surround the soon to be ex with white light and I acknowledge the goodness that may POSSIBLY be in just ONE LITTLE CELL of the soon to be ex's ENTIRE body" So I guess my own question has been answered just in typing this. God does always forgives us instantly and it is we who fail to let that blessed unconditional forgiveness shine through to others. I sense this is something that assists people in healing smart-aleckness, hurts, misunderstandings, rudeness and anger in newsgroups also.....one by one. Coleah http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/e6aabe70e1eddd40 Jan 23 2006 Ah Jan.....Shut up. You are an idiot. Get your pointy nose out of my 'business'. I like who I am and I don't need your approval for sh.t. I've told you before, if you don't like what I write...kill file me, you whining covert bitch. You delight in gathering what you think is just horrible, ugly horseshit about people and then waving it in the air as if to somehow publicly expose them as bad and wrong, compared to your pure and holy, lily-white a.s. Get over yourself already. You aren't going to embarrass me. You aren't going to get other people to hate me for being who I am or who I am not. "JanD" <J...@insightbb.com> wrote in message news:9FgBf.721024$x96.462373@attbi_s72... http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/5f0db6e87b0fd48c Jun 25 2004 Overlook? Is there a written law which says "I" need to get in the middle of YOUR personal battles? I'm a practicing Christian and certainly not perfect. You on the other hand remind us daily of your elevation by beating people over the head with Bible quotes. Fight your own battle honey! http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/19de6192d4d9f24e May 2 2006 "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:xjO5g.81131$dW3.76199@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com... As opposed to YOU Jan Drew, who has reached utter 'perfection' ?????? Gag, gag, gag....... http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/f0ed7ccbf3ce834c May 30 2006 http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/689206f59e62d26d http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/3f4aeeff712d7897 Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:WcTeg.102963$dW3.26344@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com... [Oh Jan, you are so very silly. I am a perfect combination of all my experience. AND I can say 'sh.t' if I have a belly full. See, I expel it in clear communication, whereas you prefer to crap it in a bucket and finger through it, looking for the parasites. I feel that my method is more cleansing and refreshing overall, but to each her own....... Kiss, kiss] http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/7821637af19c209e Jul 2 2004 Jan" <jdrew63...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040702232842.25527.00001054@mb-m29.aol.com... But you are the Holier Than Thou Bible Thumper 'Christian', Jan.....not I. I'm still a 'practicing' Christian, unlike you who comes off like you have already made it to 'perfection'. Lord have mercy, indeed! > As my three losing plaintiffs and their Cheerleaders celebrate... be > assured I have plenty to say and will be updating my Wikipedia page > about the happenings there! Ilena, you always have 'plenty to say' about anything and every thing. Pay no mind to the fact that sometimes you have no clue what you are talking about. You just want to have your say. Good, bad, or ugly. > Having Barrett's Paul Lee (aka Fyslee) snivelling and whining and > blaming me for his thoughts of "suicide" probably made the whole > experience worthwhile ... That's an odd thing to say. You feel that suposedly causing someone to have thoughts of suicide are 'worthwhile'? Just as a point of how disrespectful you can be, Ilena, Fyslee asked that you not use his real name, so instead of having an inch of respect for that request you come to USENET and slap his name around. Doesn't that stink of foul play to you? > I am very proud to have exposed to Wikipedia, Actually, you EXPOSED YOURSELF on Wiki. just how totally > UNRELIABLE commercial sources such as Quackwatch and his probably > illegally operating NCAHF have used Wiki as a link farm ... and am > thrilled to see Barrett's links getting biased and commerical links > removed. Didn't a couple users mention that you were spamming your links as well? You fail to see that your behavior caused MUCH controversy in an arena that you had no idea how to use or what protocols were proper. Rather than find out what Wiki is, what it's about, and how to effectively use it, you jumped in head first ranting and raving and though you were repeatedly asked to simmer down, to present a slight amount of respectfulness, and had others take you under wing to guide you in proper Wiki behavior, you continued to act like yourself, true to form. Rip and shred and have it your way or no way. I don't suppose the day will ever come when you finally realize that you cannot control the information highway. You can't tell others what to think, how to feel, how to treat themselves, what doctors to choose, etc. I know you want to, from all that you spout incessantly, but the truth of the matter is that you can't. You remind me of a 'holy roller' in your zeal to shove your opinions down the throats of anyone unfortunate enough to be standing nearby. You can't 'passively and with finesse' get your point across for some reason, so you choose to pound it up other's rear ends. You seem to become irate when other's don't follow your advice. And you are completely obsessed with certain individuals. Because of that you seem to 'flip out' over differing points of view, and that leads you to outrageous comments and accusations about others. You've said many times that I 'work' for Steven Barrett. The funny thing about that is that I believe in alternative medicine. My own great grandmother was a hill doctor who 'treated' illness in others, and I believe in her ways and those that she taught my family that we still use today. My line is drawn at those who would offer false cures for terminal illnesses that are bogus and intended to bilk money from the unsuspecting and prey on the desperate, or treatments that would not treat root illnesses, but mask them from detection, causing further damage. We had an exchange some months ago in which I was very unhappy with you for flippantly giving a thumbs up to a woman asking about breast enhancement pills. I pointed out that they are known to cause cancer. You were livid, it seems, over me DARING to cross you and offer a viewpoint that did not support your opinion. And all the while you saw absolutely nothing wrong with encouraging a woman to take a pill that could cause her to develop breast cancer. Your focus quickly changed from offering this woman sound advice to 'smear Betty the Barrett Parrot'. Why you continue to behave in this way stumps me. What confuses me even more is that after all the venues in which you have been ejected you STILL insist on slapping others in the face with your views, and labeling those that don't agree completely with your absurd attitudes, behaviors and image of others. Grow up Ilena. > Check back later! > > www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/Wikipedia.htm > Grow up Ilena. http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/01e5f25b2fd20c1a *I just get tired of reading it...expecially the subject lines she starts JEW JEW JEW LIARS AND JEWS.* http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/msg/f18ba0106044bca6 Just as I said, she posts Liar Liar Liar, and now only sometimes Jew, but mostly Liar. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.breast-implant/msg/fe4e7b92688b022d I basically told her that I hoped that she was not making a mistake. She spit in my face for showing some concern for her safety http://tinyurl.com/2hrohh Now Coleah ... for you to make the case that Paul Lee is my victim in any way, shape or form ... is pure and utter absurdity. Have a fun Pity Party. No victim ... Paul Lee attacks chiropractors and others he deems quacks with ferocity and deceit. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/QuackWatchWatch.htm Meet Paul Lee ... Quackwatch Flack and Rag-tag Posse Member with Barrett He works directly in many capacities to promote the commercial websites of Quackwatch ... When I got to Wikipedia, Stephen Barrett himself was posting away utter nonsense about the case he had lost to me ... When I stepped in to post the facts ... he removed my link ... replacled it with his ... and then Fyslee immediately began his threats and harassment ... and got me blocked the first time. Along with Barrett himself, Paul Lee is the most rabid hatemonger on the internet ... as he aids Barrett in spreading their "anti-quackery" propaganda wide & far. I will be posting his fantasies of being victimized by chiropractors ... this guy has the ego the size of Barrett's ... and when Steve Barrett went underground, Paul Lee has continued to be a link farm to their commercial enterprises. After losing to me in the Supreme Court ... they went and immediately edited their biased, loser version side of the case and fought me tooth and nail to get the facts about the case in the article. Again they ganged up me to push Barrett's POV. I don't take kindly to anonymous attackers removing my edits and replacing them with links to Barrett. Especially with Stephen Barrett's assistants and blood breaking all the rules of Conflict of Interest ... while unilaterally attacking mine. Paul Lee has been outed as the Meatpuppet he is ... Oh yes ... it took several of us 6 months with attacks by Paul Lee and Barrett's anonymous supporters ... to get the verified fact that the NCAHF status was suspended to "stick" on Wikipedia ... so powerful are they there in numbers of pushy POV. Most alternative medicine articles have been loaded with Barrettt links and propaganda ... although courts have ruled he to be "biased and unworthy of crediibility. http://www.humanticsfoundation.com/NCAHFVKingBio.htm Paul Lee, who Coleah is now leading a Pity Party for ... was intentionally posting false information about the NCAHF status ... with Meatpuppers coming in to fight me and a few others to getting the encyclopedia accurate. More coming ... www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/Wikipedia.htm Meet Stephen Barrett's best friend in the breast implant world ... Coleah Penley Ayers. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/Coleah.htm www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/SBIPrivateClub.htm From: Ilena Rose <BIA@mundo.com> Newsgroups: alt.support.breast-implant Subject: Ilena Rosenthal in WIRED: Silicone Cleavage Bounces Back ......... Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 21:26:36 -0600 Message-ID: <5rhft2h8nfsa9th8h28fmd2p04qr5n43ld@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 3.3/32.846 http://wired.com/news/technology/medtech/0,72068-0.html?tw=wn_index_1 But some consumer interest groups are not convinced. Public Citizen, a nonprofit watchdog group focusing on health and safety, released a petition Thursday urging the FDA not to approve silicone implants. http://www.citizen.org/publications/release.cfm?ID=728 Women's organizations including the National Organization for Women are against approval, and several websites, including the Humantics Foundation and Silicone Holocaust, attest to the dangers of silicone implants. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/Wired.htm Ilena Rose, who runs the Humantics Foundation, said she believes surgeons who deny that silicone breast implants cause health problems are simply motivated by money. "If a plastic surgeon inserts just two pairs of implants a week ... that's over a half a million dollars annually coming in to their coffers in implant revenue alone," Rose said on a web page she created to respond to questions from Wired News. The FDA says both silicone and saline implants carry risks including asymmetry, pain, hematoma, inflammation, scarring, rippling and more. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/ www.SiliconeHolocaust.org 9 As usual ... Coleah Penley Ayers and Willa Nidiffer don't quite have the story right ... and in their fantasies ... Paul Lee (Barrett's underling and co-maniac with their mutual fingers on the Zapper Button on the List for the Healthfrauds ... may well be banned from editing alt med articles and his Conflicts of Interest and publicist status, as well as being a link farm to the commerical enterprises of Barrett was something they wanted to keep hidden. More soon ... www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/Wikipedia.htm > As usual ... Coleah Penley Ayers and Willa Nidiffer don't quite have > the story right ... and in their fantasies ... Paul Lee (Barrett's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as well as being a link farm to the commerical enterprises of Barrett > was something they wanted to keep hidden. And..... You are the one Banned......great that you are doing your usual dodge and twist. What a joke. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ilena "This user has been blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia." "Ilena is banned indefinitely from editing articles which relate to alternative medicine, Quackwatch and related articles, and litigation she was involved with. The ban includes talk pages with the exception of articles with relate to breast implants." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Barrett_v._Rosen thal/Proposed_decision |
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