Thanks, all newsgroups are full of allopaths and medical faithful of the
Church of Allopathy.  Atheists have to believe in something, as Maslow
pointed out, and the medicos were only too happy to oblige.

They are not after the truth in any shape or form, as truth would kill 98%
of Allopathy, and send these people out to get a proper job, like
naturopathy.  For example vitamin C will cure infections
http://www.whale.to/a/levy4.html

Yes.   They like to hide behind disease incidence (as the vaccines probably
suppressed measles), but they can easily fiddle incidence stats as they are
the ones controlling that.  Death stats are a little bit harder to control
but they show, in the UK, that vaccination didn't do anything, deaths had
declined by 99.4% before vaccination.

I put the stuff on measles here http://www.whale.to/m/quotes19.html  As you
say it is safe in well fed, and well managed kids, giving them immunity to a
range of other diseases by the look of it, it looks to be a necessary
process of the immune system.

Mumps is even more absurd http://www.whale.to/v/mumps.html  My daughter
caught it off her recently MMR vaccinated boyfriend.

You will never get that from the medical industry, you have to make up your
own mind on that from the wealth of information out there, work your way
through these and see what you bleive then
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/diseases.html

cheers

john

Max, are you *really* under the impression that vaccines are
introduced with no double-blind efficacy studies?  If so, you are very
much mistaken and some time in PubMed would help to disabuse you of
these odd notions.

In addition, people do not "require double-blinded, placebo-controlled"
studies when it comes to thimerosal.  Such studies would be unethical.
Epidemiological studies are quite adequate.

Note that the data for, say, seat belt efficacy is also statistical.
Do you dismiss it?  Do you feel that seatbelts have played no role in
improving highway fatalities, and that some other factor is
responsible?

At this stage, it's simply perverse to argue that some other factor
than vaccination is responsible for the massive reduction in the
prevalence of diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, polio, diptheria,
pertussis, and so on.  This is particularly true because whenever
vaccination rates drop, either through social upheavals, complacency,
or fear-mongering, disease rates inevitably rise shortly thereafter.

But the several hundred deaths in the US every year from measles
didn't go away until vaccination came in.  That's still significant.

Not always.  I had a nice, full-blown case of mumps that lasted for
over a week.  It's not a fun disease.  Measles I managed to avoid.
I had a mild case of chickenpox, which wasn't much fun; my brother had
a much worse case at the same time and it *really* wasn't fun.

And the MMR vaccine appears to give lifetime immunity.  I'll take a
few minutes of a sore arm over being sick for days, thanks.

Since vaccinations have never been shown to cause autism or ADD, such
a calculation is quite easy.  Vaccinations can cause severe reactions
and death, but so do the diseases they prevent.  Here's a study from
France:

 Arch Pediatr. 2003 Nov;10(11):948-54
 [35-year measles, mumps, rubella vaccination assessment in France]

 [Article in French]

 Reinert P, Soubeyrand B, Gauchoux R.

 Service de pediatrie, centre hospitalier intercommunal de Creteil,
 40 rue de Verdun, 94010, Creteil, France.

 AIM: The setting-up and the follow-up of a vaccination programme
 require important human and economical investments. Our study
 objective consists of the clinical benefit evaluation given by
 measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccination since monovalent and
 combined vaccines availability (35 years for measles, 30 years for
 rubella and 20 years for mumps). METHOD: Vaccination impact has been
 evaluated from the modelisation for each disease under the shape of
 a decision tree relying on epidemiological data and on efficacy data
 of the vaccines. We have compared the results in terms of
 complications, sequaela, deaths in the vaccinated population
 (vaccination period) with the results that we would obtain if this
 same population had not been vaccinated (non vaccination
 period). The general model was applied to each of the three diseases
 excluding congenital rubella syndrome. They have been modelised
 according to the occurrence, or not, of a complication leading to an
 evolution towards either recovery or sequaela or death. The
 estimation of the number of avoided congenital rubella syndromes has
 been made from the number of protected women by vaccination and
 incidence figures of congenital rubella syndromes reported in the
 population considered before and after vaccination. RESULTS: In
 France over the period of time considered, almost 2 million
 meningitis, 60 000 encephalitis, 170 subacute sclerosis
 panencephalitis and more than 5600 neurological sequaela including
 more than 600 deafness cases have been avoided as a result of the
 MMR vaccination programme. Moreover, 590 000 pneumonia, more than
 one million of acute otitis media and 300 000 orchitis, 3000 rubella
 infection cases occurring during pregnancy have also been
 avoided. Overall, more than 12 000 deaths that have been avoided as
 a result of the MMR vaccination. CONCLUSIONS: In France, MMR
 vaccination programme leads to a huge benefit in terms of public
 health, which emphasises the true value of vaccination in the daily
 medical practice.

 PMID: 14613687 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Hmm, this may be the first time "modest tone" and "informed response"
have ever been used to describe a Scudamore posting.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

I like how you accuse John of red herrings, and then go into several of
your own.  First, I'm curious where you get your "500 or so
measles-related deaths in the US per year" figure.  I'd like to read
it.  Second, I believe John clearly indicated that deaths from the
measles had already declined by over 99% before the introduction of the
vaccine.  That doesn't mean deaths had declined and then stopped
declining.  They were still on the decline.  So, even *IF* your 500
deaths per year numebr is accurate (I'll be the judge of that when you
post your source) it's irrelevant.  The deaths would have kept
declining.

Why is it that you feel that you have to hurl insults to get your point
across?  Can't you just present your data and let readers judge for
themselves?  If you're right, it should take 4th grade name-calling to
convince people.

What does that have to do with John's statement?  Smallpox is still
around in less sanitary places.  So is polio, but as I stated before,
polio can easily be avoided with proper diet.  Entire books have been
written on how to prevent polio with diet.  Back in the 30s and 40s
large studies were done that showed evidence that low tissue calcium
levels combines with high blood sugar spikes (usually from refined
foods) set up the perfect environment for polio.

The irony of this statement is almost mind boggling.

Where's the example?  You felt the need to reply to the rest of John's
post.

So then you'd be ok with it if your child *only* had "autism spectrum
disorder" and not "full-blown autism" ?

Max.

Rich, you really need to try to be less obvious in your smearing than
that.  Anyone can easily see that John said "sanitation/poverty" not
just poverty, as you addressed.

A little history lesson... King Charles II died in 1685.  Louis
Pasteur, who is most often credited with the discovery of "germs" and
the need for sanitation was born in 1822.  So, I fail to see how your
ramblings of King Charles II has any meaning in the context of John's
statements.  His assertion that smallpox was a disease of
sanitation/poverty is just as valid for King Charles II as it is for
3rd world countries today... or even a group of modern rich people who
choose to live in filth, if such a group were to exist.

Max.

Translation:

Peter can NOT deal with truth.

http://newdiets.com/Writings/Dr._McCandless.shtml

Which leads to......

http://newdiets.com/Writings/Dr_Haley.shtml

Reprinted from

Looking For Something - Anything - About Autism?
Search The Most Complete Autism News & Info Database
The Schafer Autism Report -- Updated Fresh Daily
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/-AuTeach/messages

RESEARCH
The Mercury Debate
Thimerosal in Mandated Vaccinations is the Major Etiological Agent in the
Recent Increase in Autism and Attention Deficit/Hyperactive Disorder:
Hypothesis
Presented to Kentucky Assembly October 15, 2003
[By Boyd E. Haley, Professor and Chair, Department of Chemistry, University
of Kentucky.]
Since the early 1980s there has been a consistent elevation of the rate of
autism that appears to coincide with the increased exposure of infants to
vaccinations that have been mandated by the CDC and approved by the FDA.
This has been done with good intentions as most agree that vaccinations can
greatly reduce the level of many infectious diseases. However, underlying
this protection against infectious diseases by vaccines was another apparent
risk that has, in my opinion, lead to the tremendous increase in
neurological diseases such as autism, ADHD and other medical problems. The
714% increase in autism has, in my opinion, occurred through the early
exposure of infants and toddlers to the compound thimerosal used as a
preservative in many vaccines.

Thimerosal is a compound that breaks down in the body to release
ethyl-mercury, a very neurotoxic compound quite similar to methyl-mercury
found in fish. However, ingestion of fish exposes any methyl-mercury to the
intestines where about 65% of the heavy metal protective protein,
metallothionine (MT), exists in the body. This MT has the ability to bind
mercury and organic mercury rendering them much less toxic and leads to
their removal in the feces before they enter the blood stream. In contrast,
vaccinations containing mercury by-pass the major protection provided by the
intestinal MT as the ethyl-mercury directly enters the blood stream from the
site of injection. It has been documented that the amount of mercury these
infants are exposed to at single visits to the doctors office are 30-70
times the minimum safe level as determined by the EPA. The recommendation to
mandate vaccinations of infants, even as early as on the day they were born,
was made without adequate studies to determine that this was a safe
procedure. It was primarily through the action of several "parents of
autistic children" organizations that this catastrophic occurrence was
brought to the public's attention. Today, using statistics from the US Dept.
of Education, data on autistic children served through "Individual With
Disabilities Act" it was observed that from 1991-92 through 2001-02 a 714%
increase in autism has occurred throughout the USA. In Kentucky the increase
was from 38 to 1,022; a 2,689% increase over this time period.

There is little doubt about the increase in autism and related disorders
since 1985. There is severe contention as to whether or not vaccines in
general, and specifically thimerosal in particular, are involved in this
epidemic of autism, etc. A review by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) of the
National Academy of Science (NAS) concluded that there was no direct
epidemiological connection between vaccinations and autism, but that the
hypothesis of thimerosal toxicity causing autism was "biologically
plausible". At this time the "biological plausibility" was supported by
research from my laboratory on thimerosal toxicity and the epidemiological
studies were commissioned by the CDC. A parents group called Safe Minds
obtained the original CDC studies as well as minutes from a meeting on
thimerosal and autism. It seems as if there were strong indications from the
original CDC epidemiological studies that thimerosal was involved, but these
data were not presented at the IOM meeting nor have they ever been released
except through the Freedom of Information Act extraction used by the Safe
Minds organization.

Rather, a rather cleansed version of this CDC study was presented which has
been challenged by many. Due to the political complexity and sensitive
nature of the issue of the reliability of the CDC presentation I would
encourage all of you to read up on this issue yourselves. In contrast to the
CDC results, other researchers have gained access to the CDC's vaccine
adverse effects reporting system (VAERS) data and have completed
epidemiological studies that strong imply that vaccinations are causal in
autism (Geier & Geier, 2003). Epidemiological studies are a form of
statistics and are prone to manipulation. However, scientific data
collection is much more detailed and, when data is published with details of
the experimental approach, it is easy to have the studies repeated,
evaluated and critiqued.

What does published science have to say about thimerosal toxicity and the
possibility that this mercury containing compound may be involved in autism
and related disorders? First, all of basic research has shown that
thimerosal at very low concentrations is extremely toxic to human cells,
especially neurons. In essence, there are numerous research articles that
clearly describe the toxicity of thimerosal, even enough to warrant the
removal of this material from small animal vaccines in 1992. In the early
1980s Russian researchers did work that caused them to conclude that
thimerosal has no place in vaccinations. Consider the actions that our own
government has taken regarding thimerosal in across-the-counter medications.
Among others, the FDA has taken from the market mercurochrome, merthiolate,
and contact lens solutions which contained thimerosal. Research keeps coming
out now that the thimerosal issue is common knowledge to scientists that
shows that many biochemical pathways and many cell types are extremely
sensitive to the toxic effects of thimerosal.

Research that I have been involved in has shown that the amount of
thimerosal that is needed to cause neuronal damage is easily reached in
infants given the normal vaccine procedures. In fact, it would be quite
predictable that damage would be done when infants are given on at least 3
days of their life before 1 year of age vaccine exposures to mercury that
are 30-70 times above the EPA recommended safe level. I, in collaboration
with others, have measured the mercury levels in the birth-hair of normal
and autistic children that was primarily contributed from the birth-mother's
dental amalgams.

What we observed was data that clearly showed that autistic children do not
excrete mercury as do normal children. This results in a much lower blood
levels of mercury and therefore lower levels of birth-hair mercury level in
autistic children. The lower blood levels are due to the mercury rapidly
being taken up by the cells and not effectively excreted in autistic
infants. Further, the observation that the more severe the autism the less
mercury in the birth hair was additional proof of retention of mercury in
the autistic child. Therefore, autistic children represent a subset of the
population that cannot effectively excrete mercury and, being unable to
detoxify themselves are more susceptible to mercury's toxic effects.

The other connection between thimerosal toxicity and autism comes from the
observation that 4 of every 5 autistics are boys, a distinct gender bias.
This ratio may be explained by the effects of estrogen versus testosterone
on thimerosal toxicity. In our studies the female hormone was protective
against toxicity whereas the testosterone dramatically increased the neuron
killing capability of the thimerosal. This explanation was supported by the
observations by a Dr. Baron-Cohen in England who reported that the amniotic
fluid of mothers who gave birth to autistic children differed from the same
fluid from mothers of normal children by only the elevated presence of
testosterone. This can be evaluated that autistic children, on the day they
are born, have higher testosterone levels and can be much more sensitive to
the thimerosal exposure from the first Hepatitis B shot they receive that
day.

However, there is a push for research showing thimerosal safety by certain
groups who were positioned to be responsible for vaccine safety or who are
directly involved in the manufacturing of vaccines. There are two papers
regarding this issue (published in multiple sites) that have been released
recently that I feel need discussing. One, called the Danish study, contends
that removal of thimerosal from their vaccines was followed by an increase
in autism thereby proving that thimerosal was not causal for this disease!
An amazing claim when one considers the toxic potency of thimerosal.
However, according to their own records, the rate of autism in Denmark
before removal of thimerosal was about 0.2 per 10,000, an amazingly low
rate!

Note that this is lower than the pre-epidemic rate in the USA which was
about 3-5 per 10,000. The current elevated rate the Danish report after the
removal of thimerosal went up to 2-5 per 10,000 compared to the current USA
rate of 67 per 10,000. Comparing the Danish rate to the USA or British rate
is like comparing apples to cows!

Therefore, a quick review of the Danish autism data system was done and it
showed that they kept very poor records, loosing autistic children from
their early records, which likely accounts for their initial exceptionally
low rates. It appears as if the recent keeping of more accurate records and
the inclusion of other changes (such as changing the description of other
diseases as now being autism) was the reason for recent apparent increase in
recorded autism cases, not the removal of thimerosal. Common sense requires
that one question any argument where the removal of a potent neurotoxin like
thimerosal increases neurological problems.

Looking at the broad picture, it should be noted that the Danish never
vaccinated their children on the day of birth as we have done in the USA.
Instead they waited several weeks to months before the first vaccination and
never approached the number of vaccinations or mercury exposure levels that
USA infants have been given before age one. Therefore, considering the
autism rates in Denmark today (2-5 per 10,000) versus the USA rates (about
67 per 10,000) one could logically conclude that the lower rates in Denmark
are due to exposing their infants to less vaccine derived mercury and
exposing them only have a period of maturation.

The second study needing discussion was presented in Lancet by Pichichero et
al. where they used about 36 children and measured the decrease in blood
mercury levels and also monitored fecal excretion levels after vaccinations
containing thimerosal. Their conclusions were that the mercury from
thimerosal cleared the blood with a half-time of 5 days or less and
therefore was not around long enough to cause toxic problems. They also
found nanogram levels of mercury (ppb) in the feces and stated this as proof
that the mercury was being removed by fecal excretion. I evaluated this
paper with Mark Blaxill, a statistician, and we noted that, using the
amounts excreted in the fecal material, that it would take much longer than
5 days to remove the mercury that was found decreased in the blood. We
determined a minimum of about 74 days to greater than 1,339 days to excrete
the amount of mercury in the feces that a USA child receives in their first
six months (187.5 mcg).

Therefore, the mercury that Pichichero et al. reported decreasing in the
blood of infants given thimerosal within the first 5 days is primarily being
removed from the blood by being taken up by the infant's central nervous
system cells and other tissues. It is not being excreted in the feces or
urine! In summary, there is sound scientific data available to indicate that
thimerosal in vaccines would be the most likely suspect in the recent
epidemic of autism.

Epidemiological studies using the VAERS data-base from the CDC presents
strong evidence to conclude that the hypothesis that thimerosal exposures
are the etiology of autism is correct. Studies comparing autistic to normal
infants show that there is a major difference in the way these two groups
excrete mercury. Even normal children show great differences in their
ability to excrete mercury.

It appears as if autistic children do not effectively excrete mercury and
are therefore more sensitive to its toxic effects. There are many
individuals, organizations and agencies that will be embarrassed by this
observation as they did not consider the safety testing of early
vaccinations before they encouraged the mandated vaccine policies that lead
to the toxic mercury exposures in infants that greatly surpassed EPA
recommended levels. This has lead to the publication, supported by
accompanying news releases, of articles that seem designed to come to
conclusions that hold thimerosa