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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / October 2005

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inguinal hernia questions

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K@.not - 24 Sep 2005 17:17 GMT
Hi,

I know someone with an inguinal hernia. It is very visible,
but isn't binding yet and hasn't started down into the
scrotum. He can't afford surgery, and doesn't have
insurance. He must be active in order to work. He has
heard that a truss is not a good thing, but wouldn't that
be better than nothing? He says it's slowly getting larger,
so wouldn't a truss at least slow growth down significantly
by keeping the weight of the intestine from constanty
pushing and ripping the torn muscle?

If he can figure out how to get surgery somehow, would
the muscle grow back together? If so, why wouldn't it
grow back together by itself if a truss were worn to keep
the intestine from pushing the tear apart? Would it try
to grow back, and then get torn, and then try again, and
get torn again...etc?

What about trying to let a student practice on him? Are
there medical students who would want to do surgery
like that for the practice? If so, how to find out about
that?

Thanks for any help or advice!
K

(PS: I'll ask about that last issue in another post about
the possibility of free or cheap surgery by students, or
something similar. I apologise if anyone is offended
by that somehow.)
Howard McCollister - 24 Sep 2005 18:39 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> something similar. I apologise if anyone is offended
> by that somehow.)

Medical students can't do surgery.

A truss won't hurt him, and if it decreases the discomfort, he should get
one. No, the hernia won't go away without surgery.

HMc
K@.not - 27 Sep 2005 01:46 GMT
>A truss won't hurt him,

Some people say not to use one. Why? I've seen
something about causing scar tissue online somewhere,
but didn't see why or where it would cause it, or how.

>and if it decreases the discomfort, he should get
>one.

So far there isn't much discomfort, but it seems that
keeping the intestine in where it belongs would
decrease the tearing and growth by a very significant
amount. It seems that would be the most significant
consideration, so why do people feel that it should
not be done at all?

>No, the hernia won't go away without surgery.
>
>HMc
SJ Doc - 24 Sep 2005 19:36 GMT
>I know someone with an inguinal hernia. It is very visible,
>but isn't binding yet and hasn't started down into the
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>Thanks for any help or advice!

Some admonitions for the fellow that should do no
harm:

(1) Lose weight.  Any reduction in abdominal visceral
fat (central adiposity) will help to slow further progress
of an inguinal hernia, direct or indirect.  

(2) Exercise.  Building up the abdominal muscles can
be effective both in slowing further progress of the
hernia *and* will increase the strength and viability of
the fascia and muscle with which the operating surgeon
will have to work.  "Piss-poor protoplasm" makes for
bad surgical results.  

(3) Increase dietary vegetable fiber intake and, if
necessary, make use of stool softeners (surfactant
"wetting" agents like sodium docusate) to increase
the bulk and frequency of bowel movements while
reducing stool obduracy.  If the individual strains at
stool, he will increase intraabdominal pressure and
that tends to speed the progress of herniation.  

(4) If he smokes, get him to quit smoking.  This not
only will improve overall health, but it will also improve
wound healing postoperatively and reduce chances
of intra-operative respiratory and cardiac complica-
tions.  

A truss is of little or no value, and I do not recommend
it.  If your friend is willing to do a decent job of "prepping"
himself for surgery, I suspect that any teaching hospital's
general surgery service would be happy to take him on
through the outpatient clinic.  Surgical residents (not
students!) generally welcome uncomplicated inguinal
hernia cases in order to fulfill their requirements for
board eligibility.  Just make sure that the chief resident
is one of the guys scrubbing in on the case, and that
you get it done within the first six months of the calendar
year.

The new guys come on the service in July, and you
*really* don't want to come in for elective surgery
in the summer months.  

------------------------
Health care is too expensive, so the Clinton administration
is putting a high-powered corporate lawyer in charge of making
it cheaper. (This is what I always do when I want to spend less
money - hire a lawyer from Yale.) If you think health care is
expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free.

         -- P.J. O'Rourke, "The Liberty Manifesto" (1993)
         (http://www.cato.org/speeches/sp-orourke.html)
Howard McCollister - 24 Sep 2005 20:04 GMT
> A truss is of little or no value, and I do not recommend
> it.  If your friend is willing to do a decent job of "prepping"
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> you get it done within the first six months of the calendar
> year.

This patient will still need to be admitted, his care supervised by an
attending physician. It won't be free, or even cheaper. Certainly not in the
sense that you can get a cheap haircut at a barber college.

HMc
fresh~horses - 24 Sep 2005 20:14 GMT
> > A truss is of little or no value, and I do not recommend
> > it.  If your friend is willing to do a decent job of "prepping"
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> HMc

He could stop driving for a month. That should do it nicely.

{Today: $1.08 a litre, down from $1.18 last week. Good thing I don't
live in the Maritimes; $2-$3 a litre}

Zee
SJ Doc - 24 Sep 2005 21:37 GMT
>This patient will still need to be admitted, his care supervised by
>an attending physician. It won't be free, or even cheaper. Certainly
>not in the sense that you can get a cheap haircut at a barber college.

Where the hell have you been for the past dozen years and more?
An uncomplicated inguinal herniorrhaphy is performed on an out-
patient basis rather more often than not nowadays.  The cutters
practically slap the patient awake in the recovery room and make
him jog down the corridor to get dressed.  

You're right that having the surgery performed while on a teaching
service won't be free, but what makes you think that it will be less
expensive if it's performed by a surgeon in private practice in the
same city or surroundings?  

One measure I might recommend is considering outpatient inguinal
herniorrhaphy at a small community hospital fifty or a hundred miles
from big-city "centers of excellence" (and foci of high costs).  Sur-
geons on staff at such smaller hospitals are certainly well-practiced
in the performance of such routine surgical procedures, and can
undertake them with statistical outcomes not significantly different
from results gained in metropolitan facilities.  One might find some
surprising price advantages.  

And about twelve dollars invested in an electric hair clipper kit at
Wal-Mart is even cheaper (and much more convenient) than going
to the local barber college.  I gave up wearing my hair more than
about one-quarter of an inch long when I was faced with the choice
between wearing a surgical cap and one of those bloody ridiculous
shower cap monstrosities, and now my granddaughters wrangle over
whose turn it is to give Poppi his haircut every couple of weeks.  

--------------------
"You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
The most famous is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia,'
but only slightly less well-known is this: 'Never go in against
a Sicilian when death is on the line!'"

           -- Vizzini (character)
              *The Princess Bride* (William Goldman, 1973)
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 24 Sep 2005 22:07 GMT
>>This patient will still need to be admitted, his care supervised by
>>an attending physician. It won't be free, or even cheaper. Certainly
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> practically slap the patient awake in the recovery room and make
> him jog down the corridor to get dressed.

better than that!!!   hubby had one this spring...in the doctor's office
(surgery "suite")...he was NOT asleep..tho anesth was there...he was WALKED
to and from the table.."recovered" in a leather lounge chair ...in and out
in less than an hour!!!

hospital was a block away...if "probs" arose...

we were both impressed...recovery is always shorter without general
anesthesia!!!

and no...not a surgical resident!!

> You're right that having the surgery performed while on a teaching
> service won't be free, but what makes you think that it will be less
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>            -- Vizzini (character)
>               *The Princess Bride* (William Goldman, 1973)
Howard McCollister - 25 Sep 2005 21:08 GMT
>>This patient will still need to be admitted, his care supervised by
>>an attending physician. It won't be free, or even cheaper. Certainly
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> practically slap the patient awake in the recovery room and make
> him jog down the corridor to get dressed.

Where have YOU been? Patients don't just walk into the surgery area, take a
number, and wait to have their hernia fixed. But by all means, I'd be very
interested to have you explain to me all the ins and outs of how surgery is
performed for inguinal hernia - or anything else where you believe your
experience exceeds mine.

> You're right that having the surgery performed while on a teaching
> service won't be free, but what makes you think that it will be less
> expensive if it's performed by a surgeon in private practice in the
> same city or surroundings?

I didn't say that. Did I?

HMc
SJ Doc - 25 Sep 2005 22:31 GMT
>>>This patient will still need to be admitted, his care supervised by
>>>an attending physician. It won't be free, or even cheaper. Certainly
>>>not in the sense that you can get a cheap haircut at a barber college.

...to which SJ Doc responded:
>> Where the hell have you been for the past dozen years and more?
>> An uncomplicated inguinal herniorrhaphy is performed on an out-
>> patient basis rather more often than not nowadays.  The cutters
>> practically slap the patient awake in the recovery room and make
>> him jog down the corridor to get dressed.

>Where have YOU been? Patients don't just walk into the surgery area, take a
>number, and wait to have their hernia fixed. But by all means, I'd be very
>interested to have you explain to me all the ins and outs of how surgery is
>performed for inguinal hernia - or anything else where you believe your
>experience exceeds mine.

I haven't had all that much trouble getting patients referred to
general surgeons who will evaluate an uncomplicated individual
in the office or the clinic, "buff" him preoperatively, and get him
scheduled for an outpatient inguinal herniorrhapy.  What's so
damned complicated about the process?  And what's *your*
experience in the medical and/or surgical management of such
patients?  Do you prefer the Halstead technique or the Bassini?
And what's your opinion of endoscopic extraperitoneal hernia
repair (see http://www.sma.org.sg/smj/4506/4506a1.pdf)
procedures?  

>> You're right that having the surgery performed while on a teaching
>> service won't be free, but what makes you think that it will be less
>> expensive if it's performed by a surgeon in private practice in the
>> same city or surroundings?

>I didn't say that. Did I?

And what has that to do with the price of pearls in Perth Amboy?  
What you had said was: "This patient will still need to be admitted,
his care supervised by an attending physician. It won't be free, or
even cheaper."  That was the comment to which I responded.

As a rule, a patient seeking care through the outpatient clinic of a
surgical training program tends to pay less for his/her care than one
who consults a surgeon in private practice in the same health care
market.  Your particular bucketful of bilge about how "It won't be
free, or even cheaper" was sloshed all over that fact.  

Do you believe that valuable goods and services should be devoted
to the benefit of a patient with no expectation of payment whatso-
ever?  Or that a patient is not free to determine for him/herself
whether or not he/she will seek care of possibly lesser quality (on
a teaching service) in exchange for a lesser price?

Hm.  What *do* you say?  Thus far, not much worth listening to.

----------------------
...[E]very individual necessarily labours to render the annual
revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed,
neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how
much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic
to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and
by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be
of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in
this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote
an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the
worse for the society that it was no part of it. By pursuing his
own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more
effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have
never known much good done by those who affected to trade
for the public good.

         -- Adam Smith, *The Wealth of Nations* (1776)
Howard McCollister - 26 Sep 2005 12:57 GMT
>>>>This patient will still need to be admitted, his care supervised by
>>>>an attending physician. It won't be free, or even cheaper. Certainly
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Hm.  What *do* you say?  Thus far, not much worth listening to.

Your ignorance is disappointing.

Nobody does Halsted or Bassini hernia repairs anymore. Endoscopic repairs
are done mainly for recurrent or bilateral hernias but are not cost
effective for a simple inguinal hernia, do require general anesthesia, and
are substantially more expensive because of those increased hospital costs.

Surgery residents can't practice surgery on their own. In clinic, the
medical student sees the patient, he is evaluated by the resident, may be
run by the chief resident, and arrangements for surgery made after assigning
the patient to the attending, who may or may not see the patient. The
attending will participate in the operation to some extent, although may not
scrub. He will charge the usual fees and bill the patient and/or insurance
company. The surgeons fees will be the same as anywhere else, the hospital's
costs are the same as anywhere else and the charges will be comparable. It's
not a complicated process.

It's entirely outpatient. Some surgeons have the facilities for doing these
in the office or some other type of pure outpatient facility, and in that
case the facility charges *may* be less, but the surgeon's fee is the same.

Clearly, you're just spitballing what you *think* is the mechanism for the
process of inguinal hernia repair, but just as clearly you don't have any
real experience with it.

HMc
K@.not - 27 Sep 2005 01:42 GMT
>Surgery residents can't practice surgery on their own. In clinic, the
>medical student sees the patient, he is evaluated by the resident, may be
>run by the chief resident, and arrangements for surgery made after assigning
>the patient to the attending, who may or may not see the patient. The
>attending will participate in the operation to some extent, although may not
>scrub.

   Is the attending the person who takes charge of the operation?

>He will charge the usual fees and bill the patient and/or insurance
>company. The surgeons fees will be the same as anywhere else, the hospital's
>costs are the same as anywhere else

   So regardless of whether a student actually does the job, or
the I'm supposing much more experienced attending (attendant?
attender?) does the job, the cost is the same?

>and the charges will be comparable. It's
>not a complicated process.
>
>It's entirely outpatient. Some surgeons have the facilities for doing these
>in the office or some other type of pure outpatient facility, and in that
>case the facility charges *may* be less, but the surgeon's fee is the same.

   Even if he doesn't do the surgery. From my ingnorant position,
it still seems that may not always be the case, but my entire education
about it so far is from you people having this discussion.
SJ Doc - 27 Sep 2005 04:43 GMT
>Your ignorance is disappointing.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>process of inguinal hernia repair, but just as clearly you don't have any
>real experience with it.

Step 1: go to http://www.guideline.gov/

Step 2: enter "inguinal hernia" in the search box.

Step 3: click the hotlink given for the SSAT guideline on
the surgical repair of groin hernias.  It's easy to do.  Your
search will only come up with that one guideline.

Step 4: read the guideline, which includes the following two
paragraphs verbatim:

:| Most inguinal hernias that should be repaired are symptomatic
:| or are enlarged over time. Hernia belts should be discouraged
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
:| cally incarcerated hernias, which occur primarily in the elderly.
:| The timing of repair is determined by the symptoms.

:| The objective of any inguinal or femoral hernia operation is to
:| repair the defect in the abdominal wall. The three basic
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
:| anesthesia, while laparoscopic hernia repair requires general  
:| anesthesia.

Inasmuch as I don't subscribe to any surgical specialty journals
(and most of them are closed to non-subscribers, so offering a
link to articles from their archives wouldn't do much good) I
offer http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/77/905/188 as an
example of a recent study on the changes in inguinal hernia repair
over the past decade.  By "day case" the Brits mean "outpatient."

Inasmuch as all laparoscopic herniorrhaphies require general
anesthesia (you can get away with a spinal block or even a local
block for uncomplicated open repairs), this means that the over-
whelming majority of these outpatient surgeries involve the ad-
ministration of general anesthesia after which the patients - who
come to the surgical suite on the day of the procedure, and are
not admitted to the hospital beforehand - *still* go home to
that same afternoon to recuperate.  

Or do you mean something different by "those increased
hospital costs" you maunder about?  Most of my patients
in decent medical condition who require uncomplicated
inguinal herniorrhaphies get them performed at one or
another of the freestanding surgical centers scattered all
over the county next door.  Most of the cutters to whom
I refer don't like to bother with performing these procedures
in their offices, chiefly because the surgical centers are so
damned convenient in terms of location, support services,
and scheduling accessibility.  No goddam hospital politics
to put up with, either.  I've had ECF ("nursing home") patients
shuttled by an ambulance service from their room at the local
Snoozing Acres in the morning, surgerized first thing on the
schedule, and back at Snoozing Acres before the 3-to-11 shift
comes on.  

And just how the hell does one perform an open repair of any
type without considering which technique (I was taught to go
with a Bassini repair whenever practicable) to undertake?
Laparoscopic repairs are much more common now than they
were when I was ligating bleeders, but in certain cases you've
got not a helluva lot of choice.  I had to cope with a cadre of
general surgeons who had leaped on laparoscopic cholecystec-
tomies and herniorrhaphies with verve back in the '80s, but
although every one of them tried his/her best to handle ruptures
using their nifty new "ship in a bottle" technique, the scrub nurse
still had a full kit of carving equipment on the side table and ready
for use should they have to default to open repair.  

As for whether or not surgical residents practice on their
own, the ones who are *licensed* (for which they are el-
igible after completing the first year of postgraduate medical
education in most states) can and frequently do.  I got to
know a couple of fully licensed surgical and medical oncology
fellows out of Sloan-Kettering who were moonlighting on
Emergency Department coverage at the hospital where I
completed my internship, and when I was back at that same
hospital as a GP resident, I routinely took shifts in the ER -
and was paid for it - on my nights off.  Of course, between
completing my internship and starting my residency I did a
hitch in the U.S. Public Health Service, and served as medical
director of a Health Underserved Rural Area clinic (which
entailed a moderately heavy inpatient service and medical
call along with all the other primary care guys on staff).  

There's nothing to prevent a resident with a medical license
from practicing medicine. Back in the '60s and '70s, a lot of
guys either moonlighted (I also covered a couple of GP's prac-
tices on odd evenings) or did caritas work in the free clinics.  
Hell, I did free clinic work (under nominal supervision) as a
medical student.  I've also known both preceptors and contem-
porary colleagues who undertook fellowships in specialty areas
- two guys I know did that in dermatology - and one crusty old
S.O.B. I knew had done a dozen years in general practice before
he plugged into a radiology residency and got himself boarded
in Rays.  You can bet your life that *he* continued to practice
"on the side" all throughout his residency.  

In relatively uncomplicated cases, the participation of the
nominal attending surgeon or physician can be nominal indeed.
During my med school years and during postgraduate training,
for example, the attending obstetricians almost never saw the
uncomplicated clinic patients unless they were assigned to the
raw first-year residents.  All the OB/GYN chief residents on
the services were thoroughly salted, and pretty much ran the
day-to-day affairs of the department the way a good XO
handles the routine operations aboard a man of war.  Things
may be different in these ultralitigious times, but for all practical
purposes a cutter or baby-catcher in the final year of his/her
residency had better be able to handle him/herself as a reliably
independent decision-maker and capable physician.  Nobody
just waves a magic wand over the guy on 30 June and says:
"Now thou art qualified to become an Attending Physician!"  

And of course the attending surgeon will bill for services rendered.
A board-certified cutter will be paid more by CMS (formerly HCFA)
than a non-boarded guy will.  Back when I was young and hadn't
been burned out from the endless round of painful copulation with the
third-party payer porcupines, I certainly never received "reimburse-
ment" for the women I delivered as great as the obstetricians routine-
ly  did.  Between that and the "captain of the ship" principle (under
which the attending is drop-dead responsible for the outcome of
patient care rendered even under his/her nominal supervision), it's
inevitable that the provider number on the statement is likely to be-
long to someone the patient doesn't even recall meeting.  I've had to
explain that to patients and their families on more than one occasion.

Anent putative "spitballing," are you operating under the impression
that I'm *not* a physician?  Tsk.  Your ignorance is showing.  

----------
Hygiene is the corruption of medicine by morality.  It is
impossible to find a hygienist who does not debase his
theory of the healthful with a theory of the virtuous.  The
whole hygienic art, indeed, resolves itself into an ethical
exhortation.  This brings it, at the end, into diametrical
conflict with medicine proper.  The true aim of medicine
is not to make men virtuous; it is to safeguard and rescue
them from the consequences of their vices.  The physician
does not preach repentance; he offers absolution.

       -- H.L. Mencken, The Smart Set, May 1919
Howard McCollister - 27 Sep 2005 05:59 GMT
> Inasmuch as I don't subscribe to any surgical specialty journals
> (and most of them are closed to non-subscribers, so offering a
[quoted text clipped - 101 lines]
> Anent putative "spitballing," are you operating under the impression
> that I'm *not* a physician?  Tsk.  Your ignorance is showing.

Sheesh. Talk about maundering....

Are you under the impression that I am *not* a board certified general and
laparoendoscopic surgeon who has done (and taught) more than 1000 inguinal
hernia repairs of all types in the course of my 25 year career?

No surgery residency program that I can imagine would allow one of its
residents to do surgery on his/her own...even IF that surgery resident could
get malpractice insurance or get privileges to perform surgery at ANY kind
of surgical facility. Medical license or not. Your silly comparison of
moonlighting in an ER and practicing surgery unattended would draw quite the
guffaw from any surgery program director in the country. When I was a
resident, I moonlighted in ERs too, and even did FP locums for various
practices through Spectrum. But I can assure you that the first time would
have taken a patient to the OR in those situations, it would have been the
end of my residency.

I can understand your total ignorance of how surgery training works, but I
confess that I'm at loss to grasp your lack of familiarity with the concept
of hospital credentialling (I include free-standing ambulatory surgery
centers). "Hi...I'm a surgery resident and I'd like to do a few hernia
repairs at your facility in my spare time. Please don't tell my program
director". "No, I don't have malpractice insurance, but I promise to be
really, really careful". "I'm sure your facility's liability carrier won't
mind if I operate here, even though I'm neither board certified nor board
eligible".

You gotta be kidding.

HMc
Howard McCollister - 27 Sep 2005 06:13 GMT
>> Inasmuch as all laparoscopic herniorrhaphies require general
>> anesthesia (you can get away with a spinal block or even a local
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> Or do you mean something different by "those increased
>> hospital costs" you maunder about?

Hernia repairs are outpatient procedures, even under general or spinal, open
or laparoscopic. That's the plan when their admitted to the outpatient
facility.

The increased costs of laparoscopic hernia repairs relate to general
anesthesia and the cost of the equipment necessary to do the case.

HMc
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 27 Sep 2005 17:16 GMT
> Hernia repairs are outpatient procedures, even under general or spinal, open
> or laparoscopic. That's the plan when their admitted to the outpatient
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> HMc

    Do I understand that laparoscopic hernia repair either requires general
anesthesia while open repair may not, or that general anesthesia is for
some reason more costly when compared to that for open repair?

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Howard McCollister - 27 Sep 2005 18:42 GMT
>> Hernia repairs are outpatient procedures, even under general or spinal,
>> open or laparoscopic. That's the plan when their admitted to the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> anesthesia while open repair may not, or that general anesthesia is for
> some reason more costly when compared to that for open repair?

Laparoscopic inguinal hernia repair is typically done under general
anesthesia, open inguinal hernia repair is typically done under local
anesthesia, usually with sedation. General anesthesia is always more costly
than local with sedation because of the method, the monitoring, and the
increased level of care required.

HMc
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 27 Sep 2005 19:14 GMT
> Laparoscopic inguinal hernia repair is typically done under general
> anesthesia, open inguinal hernia repair is typically done under local
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> HMc

    Well, obviously general anesthesia is more expensive.  My question (if
you can answer it briefly) why laparoscopic repair would need general
and not open repair (not intuitive to me)
    Not to be a PITA; I have one small inguinal hernia and another that is
minimal (the small one is uncomfortable during the hay fever season; the
minimal one was detected only by the surgeon and not my internist, and
has no symptoms at this time).

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

SJ Doc - 27 Sep 2005 20:44 GMT
>    Well, obviously general anesthesia is more expensive.  My question (if
>you can answer it briefly) why laparoscopic repair would need general
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Steve

The answer is Anectine (succinylcholine) - or pancuronium bromide.  
In order to get sufficient abdominal wall relaxation to undertake the
sort of "building a ship in a bottle" procedure involved even in the
performance of a laparoscopic herniorrhaphy that does not violate
the peritoneal cavity, you have to use a paralytic.  Inasmuch as that
necessarily knocks out the muscles of respiration, you've got to
intubate the patient, and you're therefore obliged to put the patient
under.  Balanced anesthesia will do the job as nicely as most gas-
passers like.  

By contrast, with open repair you can manage well enough under a
spinal block or even a decent regional block.  As a dentist, you have
a perfect understanding of what good regional anesthesia permits.  
Because muscle paralysis isn't needful with an open surgical field,
mild sedation is usually sufficient for patient comfort, and will
generally prevent the surgeon from inflicting the ghodawful country
music he likes on the rest of the people in the operating room.

----------------------
...[E]very individual necessarily labours to render the annual
revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed,
neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how
much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic
to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and
by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be
of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in
this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote
an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the
worse for the society that it was no part of it. By pursuing his
own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more
effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have
never known much good done by those who affected to trade
for the public good.

         -- Adam Smith, *The Wealth of Nations* (1776)
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 27 Sep 2005 20:49 GMT
>>    Well, obviously general anesthesia is more expensive.  My question (if
>>you can answer it briefly) why laparoscopic repair would need general
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
>           -- Adam Smith, *The Wealth of Nations* (1776)

    Thanks.  During my brief time in anesthesia during my residency, I
think they gave anectine to all patients getting abdominal surgery.  By
the same token, I was in the delivery room for my wife's c-section, and
she did just fine with an epidural.
    My residency was in the mid 1970s.  They didn't pipe music into the
OR--which is a good thing, if you consider the times and the disco.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

SJ Doc - 27 Sep 2005 21:16 GMT
>    Thanks.  During my brief time in anesthesia during my residency, I
>think they gave anectine to all patients getting abdominal surgery.  By
>the same token, I was in the delivery room for my wife's c-section, and
>she did just fine with an epidural.

>    My residency was in the mid 1970s.  They didn't pipe music into the
>OR--which is a good thing, if you consider the times and the disco.
>
>Steve

Oh, hell, so was mine.  The cutters all had tape players in the OR
and ran 'em for background music during procedures when the patients
were under general anesthesia.  I've gotten to the point whereat
inadvertent exposure to Vivaldi's *The Four Seasons* gets me
twitching and reaching for retractors.  

But we were performing inguinal hernia repairs under local and
spinal anesthesia quite frequently.  The medical service had lots
of ECF patients with wobbly cardiac and respiratory function,
and we preferred not to add the risk of postoperative pneumonia
to the mix.  The surgeons understood our concerns, and were
entirely comfortable with initiating these procedures without
benefit of paralytics and intubation.  If they got started and found
that they *had* to have abdominal muscle wall relaxation, it was
easy enough for the anesthesiologists to induce, tube, and chuck
in the Anectine.

--------------------------
Whenever the Legislators endeavor to take away, and destroy
the Property of the People, or to reduce them to Slavery under
Arbitrary Power, they put themselves in a state of War with the
People, who are thereupon absolved from any further Obedience...
[Power then] devolves to the People, who have a Right to resume
their original Liberty, and, by the Establishment of a new Legislative
(such as they think fit) provide for their own Safety and Security,
which is the end for which they are in Society.

    -- John Locke, M.D.
           *Second Treatise on Civil Government* (1690)
Howard McCollister - 28 Sep 2005 00:17 GMT
>> Laparoscopic inguinal hernia repair is typically done under general
>> anesthesia, open inguinal hernia repair is typically done under local
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> minimal one was detected only by the surgeon and not my internist, and has
> no symptoms at this time).

In order to have enough room to work in the preperitoneal space with CO2
insufflation, muscle relaxation is required which in turn requires control
of the airway so that ventilation can be maintained. This isn't required for
an open hernia repair, which is typically done under inguinal block and
local anesthesia with sedation. A laparoscopic repair under general would
still usually be an outpatient procedure.

HMc
Steven Bornfeld - 28 Sep 2005 03:33 GMT
> In order to have enough room to work in the preperitoneal space with CO2
> insufflation, muscle relaxation is required which in turn requires control
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> HMc

Thanks!

Steve

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SJ Doc - 27 Sep 2005 15:06 GMT
>Sheesh. Talk about maundering....
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
>You gotta be kidding.

Ah, you're a cutter.  No wonder you've no manners.  I don't
dispute the medicolegal bind in which the resident physician
finds him/herself today.  The rest of us are stuck in the same
nutcracker.  Were it not for the insanity of tort law in these
United States (I still can't think of a better and more "non-
lawyer" reference than Peter Huber's *Liability: The Legal
Revolution and Its Consequences [1988]; see also
http://www.overlawyered.com/articles/huber/liablies.html
and though I would very much like to see a second edition,
his current practice disposes him to think and write more
about telecommunications than tort) the circumstances you
describe would not obtain.  But they do, and by putting
the practicing American physician in this bind, they put
the squeeze on the patient as well.  

Hell, I'm explaining to a *surgeon* the concept of sh.t 
rolling downhill?  

Of course there are other reasons why a surgical residency
program wouldn't allow a resident physician enrolled in their
course of sprouts to practice his art using their facilities.  
There is a contractual relationship into which the resident
enters, and this contract is designed to preserve the program
(insofar as the rapacity of the plaintiff's bar and the idiocy of
the courts will allow) from the predatory and prehensile
attention of Mr. Huber's colleagues.  As he had put it:

:| "Lots of general practitioners dispense aspirin and cold
:| medicine; it's the obstetricians and neurosurgeons who
:| get hammered."

The teaching programs are similarly afflicted.  About five
years after I got into practice, I was named as a defendant
in a "wrongful life" case.  As an intern, I'd done the admit-
ting H&P on a young woman who came in for an outpatient
laparoscopic tubal ligation.  As is well understood, not all
such procedures are infallibly effective; Mother Nature tries
to find ways to re-open the pathway, and in some cases the
gametes still manage to meet and greet.  I never scrubbed in
on the procedure, I never saw the patient postoperatively,
but my name was on the chart, so I got sued, too.  Madness.

Beyond that, there is also the fact that the carefully limited
number of surgery training programs approved by the ACGME
consider themselves to have a property in the efforts of the
residents enrolled in their programs, and in return for stipen-
diary and other substantive considerations they're entitled to
an effective monopoly on the monetarily valuable professional
services of these residents within the scope of their surgical
activities.  Do any of the programs with which you're familiar
limit all of their residents' extraparietal practice activities?  No
moonlighting at all?  As for the matter of malpractice insurance
coverage....

When you were covering shifts in a hospital Emergency Depart-
ment, were you paying directly for your own professional liability
insurance coverage?  I sure as hell was not.  Even when I was
taking two or three shifts a week in a small hospital's ER when
my practice was too small to provide me a living (and I was
Sicilianately unwilling to go into any more debt), the group holding
the contract with that hospital - and paying an hourly rate for my
services as a subcontractor - maintained the liability insurance
coverage.  And you can sit there in front of your computer and
compare the liability risk of performing relatively uncomplicated
elective surgery with the levels of cataclysm that can stagger
unannounced into an Emergency Department in the course of a
12-hour shift?  

Hm.  It sounds to me as if you left your surgical residency,
walked right into an established group practice, and had all
the support (including an instant caseload and a full schedule)
you ever needed.  So damned few MDs (and DOs) nowadays
"fly solo."  I was trained in the Midwest when solo practice
was the rule, even for surgeons, and it was common to struggle
through a few lean and hungry years before your practice began
to pay you a decent living.  For a number of different reasons
(not merely crushing debt load but also a disquieting herd
mentality and lack of self-confidence in the guys coming out
of the training programs in the past couple of decades), the
experience of building one's own practice is the exception rather
than the rule.  Am I mistaken in your case?  

In point of fact, it's not what a surgical resident is *able* to
do - safely and effectively - in the last couple of years of his
training but rather what he is *allowed* to do.  We live in
such a pervasive welter of artificial limitations, hedges, and
prior restraints that the simple facts of reality are blotted out.
Back in the days when doctors were being conscripted
(Korea and Vietnam especially), a guy who had just com-
pleted his first postgraduate year not uncommonly found
himself - surprise! - a qualified battalion surgeon in the
Fleet Marine Force (or, ghod help us, in the Americal),
dealing with unbuffered reality instead of "risk managed"
practice in a milieu where you're not allowed to simply
shoot an oncoming lawyer and claim you thought he was
a sapper trying to work his way through the wire.

----------------
If a man, being ill of a pus appendix, resorts to a shaved and
fumigated longshoreman to have it disposed of, and submits
willingly to a treatment involving balancing him on McBurney's
spot and playing on his vertebra as on a concertina, then I am
willing, for one, to believe that he is badly wanted in Heaven.
And if that same man, having achieved lawfully a lovely babe,
hires a blacksmith to cure its diphtheria by pulling its neck,
then I do not resist the divine will that there shall be one
less radio fan later on.  

         -- H.L. Mencken, "Chiropractic" (1924)
Howard McCollister - 27 Sep 2005 16:21 GMT
> Ah, you're a cutter.  No wonder you've no manners.

Since your argument has devolved to personal attacks and insults, I think we
can all assume that you thereby concede what has been obvious from the
start:  that your entire obscure, convoluted, pseudointellectual blathering
in this entire thread is nothing more than the mental masturbation of
someone who has just seen that their argument has no substance and is based
on ignorance.

I'll leave to you your ongoing sputtering. I have no further time to waste
correcting your many misimpressions on such a wide variety of medical topics
where you should know better.

As to manners, a review of your recent posts wherein you insult people
asking for help in other threads on this group indicates that your comments
on manners have zero credibility.

HMc
SJ Doc - 27 Sep 2005 18:03 GMT
On 27 Sep 2005 10:21:02 -0500, "Howard McCollister"
tried to slime his way out of substantive response (without
even using K-Y® jelly!) by picking out one line:

>> Ah, you're a cutter.  No wonder you've no manners.

...and whining:

>Since your argument has devolved to personal attacks and insults, I think we
>can all assume that you thereby concede what has been obvious from the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>asking for help in other threads on this group indicates that your comments
>on manners have zero credibility.

And this guy claims to be a surgeon?  If he manages relations with
the primary care people who constitute his referral base the way
he comports himself in this setting, he *definitely* walked right out
of his residency and into a busy group practice.  And his senior
associates have been careful to keep him away from the internists,
FPs and GPs they count upon for their bread-and-butter.  I wonder
how they muzzle him at hospital staff meetings?  He's got the pro-
fessional manners of - well, hell - a surgeon.  

-----------------
MISSISSIPPI PLANTER INDICTED UNDER ANTI-ZOMBIE LAW
- His Defense: "Them Boys Hain't Drugged, They're Just Stupid!"

    -- Robert A. Heinlein, *The Door Into Summer* (1956)
Zee - 27 Sep 2005 18:27 GMT
> On 27 Sep 2005 10:21:02 -0500, "Howard McCollister"
> tried to slime his way out of substantive response (without
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
>     -- Robert A. Heinlein, *The Door Into Summer* (1956)

I have a comment to make from the perspective of a consumer.

I have been the lucky beneficiary of Howard's professionalism and
knowledge. If all goes well with me I won't need what he offered, but I
can't tell you how profoundly grateful I am for him being on this
newsgroup. What he offered me was not only the best of information
(substantiated by two other surgeons in my community) but it was given
with such grace and consideration. There is no question I would want
him as my surgeon; no matter what the condition.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 27 Sep 2005 19:10 GMT
(snip)

> And this guy claims to be a surgeon?  If he manages relations with
> the primary care people who constitute his referral base the way
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> how they muzzle him at hospital staff meetings?  He's got the pro-
> fessional manners of - well, hell - a surgeon.  

    Really--not fair at all.  I've known surgeons who are ruff boyz, but
I've also known sweethearts.

Steve

> -----------------
> MISSISSIPPI PLANTER INDICTED UNDER ANTI-ZOMBIE LAW
> - His Defense: "Them Boys Hain't Drugged, They're Just Stupid!"
>
>     -- Robert A. Heinlein, *The Door Into Summer* (1956)

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

SJ Doc - 27 Sep 2005 20:29 GMT
>    Really--not fair at all.  I've known surgeons who are ruff boyz,
>but I've also known sweethearts.
>
>Steve

Oh, I've known cutters who were cuter than puppies and just as
endearing.  Also some pretty smart ones.  This guy, howsomever,
seems determined to prove just how eminently jerkable his chain
really is.  Set aside for a moment the repeated insult he has been
handing out in this thread (which I don't much mind; there's a lot
of flamishness in any sort of online exchange), including his snide
allegations that *I'm* not a physician, it's got to be understood that
incidental merry insult is not *argumentum ad hominem*, and
does nothing to invalidate the substance of the proposition it
accompanies.  

Which substance this putz has just self-righteously and deceitfully
side-stepped.  I don't ask anyone to entertain the notion that this
Bœotian might not be a surgeon.  After all, he's just demonstrated his
facility at performing a bypass....

-----------------
The Ten Commandments display was removed from the Alabama
Supreme Court building, but here was a good reason for the move. 

You can't post "Thou Shalt Not Steal" in a building full of lawyers
and politicians without creating a hostile work environment.
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 28 Sep 2005 05:40 GMT
>     Really--not fair at all.  I've known surgeons who are ruff boyz, but
> I've also known sweethearts.

COMMENT:

More information than we wanted about your love-life!  And besides, you
probably never met any orthopods.

There's a grain of truth in most generalizations about medical
subspecialties. But only a grain. As a group, I've found surgeons
generally fine people, albeit with a bit more self-assurance even than
the average doc. But self-assurance is a perspectical matter. As in "my
self-assurance, your strong will, his egotistical pomposity."  It all
goes with the territory of what surgeons dare to do. When I was a
medical student I was 3rd assist (read-retractor-holder) for several
complex surgeries with a surgeon in trouble, and I wouldn't take on
that particuarly lonely bit of hell for all the money in Thoracicordia
(FYI: a very rich little country near La Jolla).

Generalization: pediatricians are always nice. Pediatric surgeons,
doubly so (god bless them every one). Personally, the worst SOBs I've
met in medicine have tended to be in the more "intellectually-rarified"
subsubspecialities of internal medicine. Endocrinology. Non-invasive
cardiology. Hematology. I hypothesize that it has something to do with
maximal power over the patent without having to actually get your hands
wet. Evil allergists or dermatologists are hard to find. You'd think
that shrinks might congregate in the SOB category, except that the
shrinks I've met have truly been empathetic sorts, exactly as you'd
expect (or hope for). So if there are any evil ones, they must be in NY
or Hollywood, or off running criminal insane institutions for the state
or something-- places I don't go. In any case, I've not met one I
didn't like. I suppose unlikable ones wouldn't survive long in private
practice. And, actually, even the SOBs I've met were usually nice to
patients. It was with nurses, students, staff, and junior docs that you
saw their Dark Side.

SBH
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 28 Sep 2005 17:18 GMT
>>    Really--not fair at all.  I've known surgeons who are ruff boyz, but
>>I've also known sweethearts.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> SBH

    I've met several orthopedists (can't say I know any well), but I have
been seen by at least 3 orthopods over the years for accidents and pain.
 None have been gorillas with hairy knuckles.  One was an attractive
female shoulder specialist I saw after fracturing my clavicle.
    I do remember being recruited in the ER during my residency to grab
this guy's leg and try to reduce a hip dislocation.  I still remember
the screaming.  As I am not a gorilla either, I wasn't able to pop it
back in.
    Never dated any orthopedists.  Did date a psychiatrist once--didn't go
far (and not because I didn't want it to).

Steve

Signature

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http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

SJ Doc - 28 Sep 2005 21:02 GMT
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 16:18:10 GMT, Steven Bornfeld wrote:

>    I've met several orthopedists (can't say I know any well), but I
>have been seen by at least 3 orthopods over the years for accidents
>and pain. None have been gorillas with hairy knuckles.  One was an  
>attractive female shoulder specialist I saw after fracturing my clavicle.

>    I do remember being recruited in the ER during my residency to
>grab this guy's leg and try to reduce a hip dislocation.  I still remember
>the screaming.  As I am not a gorilla either, I wasn't able to pop it
>back in.

>    Never dated any orthopedists.  Did date a psychiatrist once--didn't go
>far (and not because I didn't want it to).

The one robust tendency I've noted in orthopedic surgeons is that
they tend very strongly to have been "jocks" in earlier life.  My
freshman year college roommate was a hockey player who had
already undergone bilateral knee surgery while in high school, and
every night I was treated to his bedtime range of motion and
strengthening exercises as a half-hour-long round of pops and
cracks (to which I got disturbingly accustomed; I actually had
trouble getting to sleep when I came home for Christmas vacation,
and didn't snooze comfortably again until the first night I got back
to the dormitory).  

We parted ways after that first year (I took a room off-campus,
and he got into the equivalent of a residential fraternity).  We dis-
covered to our mutual surprise just before graduation that we had
each been accepted at the same medical school.  In the interim,
my much-scarred ex-roomie had gone on to found the college
hockey team, to organize scrimmages and eventually regular
league play against other small colleges in the area, and had a
lot of fun in the process.  I used to bang out copy about him
and the team for the weekly school newspaper, but we didn't
hang around together.  

Same story in medical school, where the difference in our last
names meant that we were never together in the same lab groups,
and never did any clinical clerkships together.  Through the
alumni association publications, however, I found that he'd
gotten into orthopedic surgery and was happy as a clam on
a tidal flat.  

Forget about "gorillas with hairy arms."  Look instead for
the scars of cleat marks around the ankles, longitudinal
zippers up the knees, and the absence of body hair around
the wrists (indicative of repeated tapings and removal-
related depilation).  Orthopods tend to have been jocks
in their larval years.

----------
Hygiene is the corruption of medicine by morality.  It is
impossible to find a hygienist who does not debase his
theory of the healthful with a theory of the virtuous.  
The whole hygienic art, indeed, resolves itself into an
ethical exhortation.  This brings it, at the end, into
diametrical conflict with medicine proper.  The true aim
of medicine is not to make men virtuous; it is to safeguard
and rescue them from the consequences of their vices.  The
physician does not preach repentance; he offers absolution.

       -- H.L. Mencken, The Smart Set, May 1919
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 28 Sep 2005 21:41 GMT
> The one robust tendency I've noted in orthopedic surgeons is that
> they tend very strongly to have been "jocks" in earlier life.  My
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> related depilation).  Orthopods tend to have been jocks
> in their larval years.

    That makes sense, given their exposure to the specialty as young patients.
    It seemed that at our medical center, all the oral sugeons were big,
powerfully built guys.  One had played baseball as a minor leaguer
(Detroit, I think).  Hugh guy.  I took call with him, and the noise from
his pushups was truly impressive.  Considering I'm 5'8" and 140 lbs.
it's a good thing for me we got along.

Steve
>  
> ----------
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>  
>         -- H.L. Mencken, The Smart Set, May 1919

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718-258-5001

Howard McCollister - 29 Sep 2005 13:13 GMT
> And this guy claims to be a surgeon?  If he manages relations with
> the primary care people who constitute his referral base the way
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> how they muzzle him at hospital staff meetings?  He's got the pro-
> fessional manners of - well, hell - a surgeon.

Fortunately, in real life, I don't have to deal with arrogant primary care
doctors who anonymously try to lob opinions into a discussion on subjects
about which they know little, then switch to ad hominem attacks when their
ignorance is pointed out. That particular scenario is even pretty uncommon
here on this internet newsgroup, where most of the doctor post under their
own name and certainly tend to confine their comments to areas where they
have some expertise. "SJDoc" being the most noteable exception, currently...

HMc
SJ Doc - 29 Sep 2005 15:17 GMT
>Fortunately, in real life, I don't have to deal with arrogant primary care
>doctors who anonymously try to lob opinions into a discussion on subjects
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>own name and certainly tend to confine their comments to areas where they
>have some expertise. "SJDoc" being the most noteable exception, currently...

In response to which it's appropriate to quote from one of my
earlier posts:

This guy...seems determined to prove just how eminently jerkable
his chain really is.  Set aside for a moment the repeated insult he
has been handing out in this thread (which I don't much mind; there's
a lot of flamishness in any sort of online exchange), including his
snide allegations that *I'm* not a physician, it's got to be under-
stood that incidental merry insult is not *argumentum ad hominem*,
and does nothing to invalidate the substance of the proposition it
accompanies.  

Which substance this putz has just self-righteously and deceitfully
side-stepped.  I don't ask anyone to entertain the notion that this
Bœotian might not be a surgeon.  After all, he's just demonstrated
his facility at performing a bypass....

Dr. McCollister is advised to look up the definition of "ad hominem."
It is only when an argument is *predicated* upon the putative or
actual character of the opposing disputant - and not upon the sub-
stantive factuality or the logical inconsistencies in said disputant's
statements - that one speaks of *argumentum ad hominem* as a
fallacy to which attention may legitimately be drawn.

Incidental to this helpful explanation, it may readily be seen that
Dr. McCollister is himself invalidating his position by refusing to
address the substance of *my* statements in this thread, instead
doing nothing except characterizing me as one of the "arrogant
primary care doctors" who apparently irritate the hell out him,
and expecting all and sundry to disregard my assertions (and
accept his Little Tin God pronunciamenti) on that basis alone.  

Which actually *is* the logical fallacy of *argumentum ad homi-
nem*.  How thoroughly delightful.  

Didn't do much in the way of debate or study logic as an under-
graduate, didja, Dr. McCollister?  If you're as imprecise in your
surgical technique as you are in your uses of terminology, you
must be warmly considered as ghod's gift to the plaintiff's bar in
your community.  

--------------------
"You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
The most famous is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia,'
but only slightly less well-known is this: 'Never go in against
a Sicilian when death is on the line!'"

           -- Vizzini (character)
              *The Princess Bride* (William Goldman, 1973)
Howard McCollister - 30 Sep 2005 17:18 GMT
>>Fortunately, in real life, I don't have to deal with arrogant primary care
>>doctors who anonymously try to lob opinions into a discussion on subjects
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> must be warmly considered as ghod's gift to the plaintiff's bar in
> your community.

All very erudite, I'm sure, but none of which addresses your shooting your
mouth off on subjects about which you are basically ignorant. Bassini
repair? Come now...

HMc
Steven Bornfeld - 30 Sep 2005 17:29 GMT
(snip)

Gentlemen!
I've appreciated the info from you both--esp. Howard with his long-term
contributions to this ng.
As a couple of the relatively few people here who can actually
contribute some useful info, it's unfortunate to see the bickering.

JMO,
Steve

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Howard McCollister - 30 Sep 2005 22:45 GMT
> (snip)
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> JMO,
> Steve

You're right, Steve. My apologies.

HMc
Steven Bornfeld - 01 Oct 2005 02:42 GMT
> You're right, Steve. My apologies.
>
> HMc

    De nada.  You're a gentleman and a scholar.

Steve

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SJ Doc - 30 Sep 2005 19:28 GMT
>>>Fortunately, in real life, I don't have to deal with arrogant primary care
>>>doctors who anonymously try to lob opinions into a discussion on subjects
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>> must be warmly considered as ghod's gift to the plaintiff's bar in
>> your community.

>All very erudite, I'm sure, but none of which addresses your shooting
>your mouth off on subjects about which you are basically ignorant.
>Bassini repair? Come now...

So what approach do you take when you find it necessary to
perform an open repair of an inguinal hernia?  Even the Shouldice
technique is a modification of the Bassini repair.  Though the
Lichtenstein technique was first documented sometime in the
early '70s, it was not in common use when I was in training.
Prosthetic augmentation of inguinal herniorrhaphies had been
attempted with varying degrees of success from the mid-'50s,
and still hadn't caught on widely back during the Carter
Administration.  I was told a number of horror stories about
surgical wound infections with those monofilament mesh implants
in situ, and my preceptors were reluctant to make use of such
materials.  

Remember, I'm a primary care grunt, a "gatekeeper" GP.  I
haven't so much as observed or assisted in the operating room
for more than twenty-five years.  Beyond that, among the differen-
ces between the surgeon and the primary care guy in a Mangled
Care environment is that *you* get paid for performing procedures.
I don't.  I get a monthly capitation on my HMO patients that covers
everything I do (up to and including house calls, inpatient manage-
ment, encounters in the Emergency Department, phone calls in the
middle of the night, et tedium).  The more you do, the more you
make.  The more I do, the less time I have to spend with my wife.

Hm.  There's an advantage in that, even though it can't be deposited
in the bank.  

If you would care to discuss the merits of the Lichtenstein and other
prosthetic repair techniques (open and laparoscopic) please feel
free to do so.  I can only speak about the anatomical approaches
with which I'm familiar - and by the time I see the handiwork of
your colleagues (fortunately, I don't have to deal with *you*),
the wound is nicely healed and I take note of the robust quality of
the repair as merely incidental to the patient's overall physical
examination.

And what excuses you "shooting off your mouth" about how
you've been so dreadfully, terribly, agonizingly wounded by
what you call "ad hominem" assertions when you allege that
my qualifications to speak on this subject - not my knowledge
of the subject itself but my training and clinical experience
as one of those "arrogant primary care doctors" you so
thoroughly despise - are alone sufficient to invalidate any
comment I might make when you could far more simply (and,
I presume, more readily) demonstrate a fund of knowledge
superior to my own, such as must be common among practicing
surgeons in America today?  

If you know this subject better than I do, speak about it lucidly
and with didactic intent so that all reading your posts can benefit
from the information.  I repeat: if you treat with the physicians
who make up your referral base in this way, few of them are
going to credit you as a reliable authority on the surgical care
of their patients, even fewer are going to be alert and active in
screening patients who might benefit from the work at which you
claim to be expert, and *none* of them are going to continue
referring their patients to you when they can find a competitor in
your area of equal competence who treats them with courtesy
and collegiality better than what you've exhibited in this thread.  

----------------------
You can get more with a kind word and a gun
than you can with a kind word alone.

         -- Al Capone
Howard McCollister - 03 Oct 2005 16:19 GMT
> So what approach do you take when you find it necessary to
> perform an open repair of an inguinal hernia?  Even the Shouldice
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> your area of equal competence who treats them with courtesy
> and collegiality better than what you've exhibited in this thread.

While I appreciate your concern for the success of my practice and your
lectures on collegiality, I would point out that the internet is not real
life and my real-life "colleagues" don't address their issues (such as their
opinion of "cutters") from behind a veil of anonymity. For you to try to
translate such an internet discussion into assumptions about someone's
private practice, or even their personality, suggests that you might be new
to the internet. Fear not, I'm doing fine, non-managed-care private practice
having been very rewarding professionally and personally over these past 25
years.

Anatomic repairs of inguinal hernia have a recurrence rate somewhere between
8-15%. When those hernias recurred, the standard approach was a mesh repair.
In your generation of training (and mine, as we are contemporary), that mesh
was often mersilene, a braided material that would entrap or "wick" bacteria
with the end result of "spitting" of the mesh in a certain percentage of
cases. Indeed - a real PITA for both patient and surgeon and a deterrent to
the use of mesh repairs at that time. Currently, prosthetic repairs
typically use polypropylene, or polytetroflouroethylene (Teflon/GoreTex)
composite. Variations of the Lichtenstein repair include things like plug,
and plug-and-patch. These don't cause those kinds of problems and allowed
the concept of primary prosthetic repair, which is the current state of the
art. Anatomic repairs are generally not done these days except in children,
where the Bassini repair still tends to be the repair of choice, since the
primary problem is a persistent processus vaginalis and the inguinal floor
is in good shape.

There are three indications for a laparoscopic hernia repair: recurrent
hernia, bilateral hernia, or younger, more active patients who need to
return to work early. This latter point is a very relative indication, as
there is not substantial difference in return-to-work time, and given the
increased cost attendant to the laparoscopic approach, it's usually not cost
effective. There is typically less pain associated with laparoscopic repair
in the first 2-3 days post-op, but that is about the extent of the
advantage. Return to work after either repair for, say, a self-employed
dentist, would be about a week or so. Return to work after either repair in
the Worker's Comp arena would be closer to 6 weeks. If the job involves
strenuous physical activity, there is a marginal advantage to unilateral
laparoscopic repair in that heavy lifting will cause more pain for a
somewhat longer period time up to the 6-week mark. The recurrence rate after
a prosthetic tension-free repair is about 0.5 - 1% whereas the recurrence
rate after a laparoscopic repair is somewhere around 3%.

Prosthetic mesh is used in all laparoscopic repairs. Those operations are
done either by entering the preperitoneal space directly, or by incising the
peritoneum from the abdominal cavity. Removal or exclusion of an indirect
sac is more problematic with the latter approach.

HMc
SJ Doc - 27 Sep 2005 18:28 GMT
>As to manners, a review of your recent posts wherein you insult people
>asking for help in other threads on this group indicates that your comments
>on manners have zero credibility.

Pardon *l'esprit d'escalier*, but precisely whence derive you that
particular fantasy?  PPR, by all means.  

-----------------
Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will
come when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship
to restrict the art of healing to one class of men and deny equal
privileges to others. The Constitution of this Republic should make
a special privilege for medical freedom as well as religious freedom.

    -- Benjamin Rush, M.D.
K@.not - 27 Sep 2005 01:43 GMT
>Do you believe that valuable goods and services should be devoted
>to the benefit of a patient with no expectation of payment whatso-
>ever?  

   I'll bet that idea never lasts very long :-)

>Or that a patient is not free to determine for him/herself
>whether or not he/she will seek care of possibly lesser quality (on
>a teaching service) in exchange for a lesser price?

   From a poor boy who can't afford surgery's pov, it seems like
some sort of exchange that could benefit the student and the
poor boy could be worked out. But. If it has already been worked
out that students get to practice, while experienced surgeons
direct the procedure and get paid just the same even if they
don't do the operation, then that ends any possibility of a mutually
beneficial exchange I guess. Oh well.
Howard McCollister - 27 Sep 2005 03:38 GMT
>>Do you believe that valuable goods and services should be devoted
>>to the benefit of a patient with no expectation of payment whatso-
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> don't do the operation, then that ends any possibility of a mutually
> beneficial exchange I guess. Oh well.

The exchange you're talking about is lower cost for a lesser quality of
surgery. Really now...think about that. Does that sound realistic in this
day when doctors around the world are criticized regularly for "medical
mistakes", and phone books and newspapers are crowded by ads for malpractice
lawyers? Medical students don't have malpractice insurance. Neither do
residents unless they are supervised by a qualified surgeon so designated.
That supervising surgeon is there to make sure that the quality of every
single operation done under their name is as good as it can be - he/she
stakes his/her reputation and the reputation of the institution where they
work on every single operation. You're talking about multiple standards of
care - better care if you can afford it, second-rate if you're poor. However
it works out in practice, opposition to that concept is a rallying cry (more
of a shriek, really) for watchdog groups all across the USA.

As to who is doing the operation -- we're not talking about heavy lifting
here....the attending surgeon gets paid by the patient to MAKE SURE that
their operation is done according to prevailing standards of care, for
taking that responsibility, and for imparting his/her experience and
knowledge to the extent necessary. Not for doing the physical work, which is
trivial in an energy-expenditure sense. I can assure you it is far more
stressful to teach someone to do an operation than it is to do one.

As to other questions you pose -- your friend's hernia will never get
smaller, only bigger. Strengthening the abdominl muscles won't help and are
far more likely to increase the size of the hernia, anything that increases
intraabdominal pressure such as straining will do so. Trusses -- they don't
cause scarring and do not make the operation more difficult in any way. They
don't fix the hernia, but do have the potential (in some cases) to decrease
the discomfort. If your friend isn't having pain, there's no point to
wearing a truss.

There are two problems with an inguinal hernia -- 1) causing the patient
discomfort  2) the possibility that the loop of intestine could become
trapped and strangled in the hernia sac (strangulated hernia). The
likelihood of such a strangulation is relatively low (although if it does
occur, it's a true emergency). If those two issues don't apply to your
friend, then the repair can certainly wait until he gets health insurance,
saves enough money, or can apply for some kind of medicaid-based program. In
the VA system of the US where health care is rationed, it would not
necessarily be uncommon for a patient to wait months or even years to get
his hernia operation. This is likewise true in at least a few industrialized
nations that have a nationalized health care program.

HMc
Rich - 27 Sep 2005 04:58 GMT
>>>Do you believe that valuable goods and services should be devoted
>>>to the benefit of a patient with no expectation of payment whatso-
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>
> HMc

For the patient who demanded an itemized bill for his $8000 surgery:

   Cutting                                $5
   Knowing what to cut            $7995

;o)  Rich
Peter Bowditch - 27 Sep 2005 14:19 GMT
>For the patient who demanded an itemized bill for his $8000 surgery:
>
>    Cutting                                $5
>    Knowing what to cut            $7995

It's not just doctoring. I was asked by a client to help a client of
theirs who had been having trouble with the software I make a living
with. I had a look at what needed to be done, gave a quote and went in
one afternoon and did the job. The final client didn't want to pay
because they said that I showed that the job was so easy that they
could have done it themselves.

Except that they had been trying to do it themselves for a year.
Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

K@.not - 27 Sep 2005 01:44 GMT
>>I know someone with an inguinal hernia. It is very visible,
>>but isn't binding yet and hasn't started down into the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>fat (central adiposity) will help to slow further progress
>of an inguinal hernia, direct or indirect.  

He's about 5'6" and weighs about 130 lbs.

>(2) Exercise.  Building up the abdominal muscles can
>be effective both in slowing further progress of the
>hernia *and* will increase the strength and viability of
>the fascia and muscle with which the operating surgeon
>will have to work.  "Piss-poor protoplasm" makes for
>bad surgical results.  

He likes to kayak and ride his bicycle. He was/is
afraid one or the other might cause more tearing. Are
they both a good idea? How about sit-ups? It seems
that some things must make it worse, even if others
could make it better.

>(3) Increase dietary vegetable fiber intake and, if
>necessary, make use of stool softeners (surfactant
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>stool, he will increase intraabdominal pressure and
>that tends to speed the progress of herniation.  

He was aware of that one already.

>(4) If he smokes, get him to quit smoking.  This not
>only will improve overall health, but it will also improve
>wound healing postoperatively and reduce chances
>of intra-operative respiratory and cardiac complica-
>tions.  

And that.

>A truss is of little or no value, and I do not recommend
>it.  

So far it seems a lot better than nothing, because it
seems that it could reduce the tearing caused by the
weight of the intestine. Please explain why it's better
not to get one.

>If your friend is willing to do a decent job of "prepping"
>himself for surgery, I suspect that any teaching hospital's
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>*really* don't want to come in for elective surgery
>in the summer months.  

I'm trying to understand. How to learn more about
elective surgery, or whatever if there is such an
option?

>------------------------
>Health care is too expensive, so the Clinton administration
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>          -- P.J. O'Rourke, "The Liberty Manifesto" (1993)
>          (http://www.cato.org/speeches/sp-orourke.html)
Sdores - 27 Sep 2005 12:53 GMT
The best I can suggest is  a public clinic and then public outpatient
hospital for medical.  They go on a scale towards income of the person for
the amount the patient has to pay.  I had a hernia repaired in January in
the top of my incision of my abdomen.  You don't want to wear truss because
this allows scar tissue to build up, by not allowing the body to move there
is no way to help break it up.  Mine was to the point of very painful.  They
suggested to me when it is painful or has gotten really big to get it
repaired for less complications.  Good luck to your friend.  UM MOM Susan

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> something similar. I apologise if anyone is offended
> by that somehow.)
 
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