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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / September 2005

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MMR scare doctor faces list of charges

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Mark Probert - 12 Sep 2005 01:28 GMT
Read it all here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1774388,00.html

At the heart of the GMC’s allegations is the conduct of research carried
out at the Royal Free following the award of a £55,000 contract from
lawyers in August 1996 to perform tests on 10 children for the Legal Aid
Board. Wakefield claimed last year the £55,000 contract was for a “quite
separate” study. This is called into question by confidential Royal Free
documents, including letters from Wakefield himself.
john - 12 Sep 2005 08:13 GMT
the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html
cathyb - 12 Sep 2005 11:37 GMT
> the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
> http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html

Oh, no actual refutation of the facts given in the article, then?

And the article you link says:

>From Paul Shattock, "I was at the ASA conference in Indianapolis a
months back. Brian Deer and a camera crew turned up. They booked under
their own name. I was the warm up act and, when I had finished, I went
to the back of the room to talk to parents. Then Andy was on and was as
excellent as usual. As he got off the stage, he was surrounded by
mothers asking questions. Deer and his crew pushed them aside, turned
on their recording equipment and attempted to conduct an interview.
(Clearly there was no permission or request  to film.) Andy did that
thing where you put your hand over the camera lens and attempted to
leave the room fast. He bent down to pick up his computer and knocked
against the cameraman. Deer interprets this as an attack. Deer's
interpretation is that his polite request for an interview was turned
down. No doubt edited highlights of this event will be shown." ----Paul
Shattock

But none of this is mentioned in the Times article. What was your
point? Edited highlights were not used here. This is just more whaleto
sh.t.

Nor does it address:

"The GMC's inquiry, expected to conclude at a public hearing next
June, is understood to be investigating Wakefield's work with lawyers
who were trying to sue MMR manufacturers while he was apparently acting
as an independent researcher.

In the original Lancet paper, the only evidence against MMR were
statements by the parents of eight children who linked the vaccine with
autism. The GMC is now trying to establish how many of them were
lawyers' clients.

At the heart of the GMC's allegations is the conduct of research
carried out at the Royal Free following the award of a £55,000
contract from lawyers in August 1996 to perform tests on 10 children
for the Legal Aid Board. Wakefield claimed last year the £55,000
contract was for a "quite separate" study. This is called into
question by confidential Royal Free documents, including letters from
Wakefield himself.

These documents indicate that the lawyers' money was initially
rejected by the Royal Free's medical school, but that Wakefield then
arranged for the hospital's management to accept it and to pay it
back to his research interests. The hospital has denied any wrongdoing.

The GMC is also understood to have put it to Wakefield that he did not
have approval from the hospital's ethics committee either for
including data on specific children in The Lancet or for soliciting
other doctors to perform potentially hazardous tests, such as lumbar
punctures.

"These tests were, however, determined and routinely carried out on
the children who formed part of the study without consideration of the
individual history, diagnosis, symptoms and clinical needs of the
children, and without an adequate evaluation of the necessity of the
tests," the GMC papers allege."

In fact, you don't address anything, do you?

Cathy
Clinton - 12 Sep 2005 11:59 GMT
> > the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
> > http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html
>
> Oh, no actual refutation of the facts given in the article, then?
>
> And the article you link says:

Every darn post you make is pro-industry pro- ADA status quo-
Pro- "powers that be"

Don't you have anything better to do than being a professional
lackey.
JohnDoe - 12 Sep 2005 12:07 GMT
>>>the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
>>>http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Don't you have anything better to do than being a professional
> lackey.

Like being a professional credophile like you? Live your life ignoring
facts and reality? Try the real world sometime Clinton, it might
surprise you.
Clinton - 12 Sep 2005 12:45 GMT
> Like being a professional credophile like you?

Your a complete liar. i haven't expressed a definite opinion on
anything except amalgam that includes MMR-autism. By the way
craphead, in case you haven't noticed I'm not from an alt-med
background.

Live your life ignoring
> facts and reality?

Don't lecture me you smug jerk. In fact I'm the opposite of
a crediophile so your Pr trick of opposite characterization
won't work. let some other sucker trip over their own feet
defending themselves against a characterization that isn't true.
I think your a "kissindustryassophile".

By the way reality IS using your real name and accepting all
information with reasoned skeptiscim, and not swapping anyonmous
psuedonems and equating accepting "what everyone else says"
with socratic level wisdom.... , but really, post after post after post
from Cathy mike, bill, Jane etc with the "they must be right" message
and I'm about to puke so enough of this. I hope for your
guys sake that your doing it for the money.
JohnDoe - 12 Sep 2005 13:06 GMT
>>Like being a professional credophile like you?
>
> Your a complete liar. i haven't expressed a definite opinion on
> anything except amalgam that includes MMR-autism. By the way
> craphead, in case you haven't noticed I'm not from an alt-med
> background.

My my, did my post upset you so much you have to revert to namecalling?
I may not know much about your background but I do know now about your
ability to make intelligent conversation.

>>  Live your life ignoring
>>facts and reality?
>
> Don't lecture me you smug jerk.

Here we go again. I really seem to have struck a nerve.

> In fact I'm the opposite of a crediophile so your Pr trick of opposite characterization
> won't work. let some other sucker trip over their own feet
> defending themselves against a characterization that isn't true.

Then why are *you* defending yourself? Bad conscience?

> I think your a "kissindustryassophile".

Tsk tsk.

> By the way reality IS using your real name

And get (cyber)stalked by you know who? No thanks.

> and accepting all information with reasoned skeptiscim,

that would be '*approach* all information'. What use is skepticism if
you accept all information anyway, as you here admit doing.

> and not swapping anyonmous psuedonems   and equating accepting "what everyone else says"
> with socratic level wisdom....

Wow, you're so ticked off by my insignificant little post you haven't
checked your spelling or your coherence. Damn I'm good!

> , but really, post after post after post
> from Cathy mike, bill, Jane etc with the "they must be right" message
> and I'm about to puke so enough of this.

Ah, psychosomatic puking disorder. You really should focus your Chi on
more positive things.

> I hope for your guys sake that your doing it for the money

What money? Where?
Clinton - 12 Sep 2005 15:46 GMT
> > and accepting all information with reasoned skeptiscim,
>
> that would be '*approach* all information'. What use is skepticism if
> you accept all information anyway, as you here admit doing.

that's is not what i said.
ARe you a real person or a Pr firm?

> > and not swapping anyonmous psuedonems   and equating accepting "what everyone else says"
> > with socratic level wisdom....
>
> Wow, you're so ticked off by my insignificant little post you haven't
> checked your spelling or your coherence. Damn I'm good!

More likely I didn't think it was worth my time.

> > , but really, post after post after post
> > from Cathy mike, bill, Jane etc with the "they must be right" message
> > and I'm about to puke so enough of this.
>
> Ah, psychosomatic puking disorder. You really should focus your Chi on
> more positive things.

I'm not from the alt-med scene, your so used to slapping convenient
labels on people you don't know when to stop.

> > I hope for your guys sake that your doing it for the money
>
> What money? Where?

okay, checks, direct deposit, frequent flyier miles, free passes
to hershy park,
cathyb - 12 Sep 2005 15:55 GMT
> > > and accepting all information with reasoned skeptiscim,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> okay, checks, direct deposit, frequent flyier miles, free passes
> to hershy park,

Ooh, c'n I have some?!

PS What and where is 'hershy park'?
Clinton - 12 Sep 2005 16:15 GMT
> > okay, checks, direct deposit, frequent flyier miles, free passes
> > to hershy park,
>
> Ooh, c'n I have some?!
>
> PS What and where is 'hershy park'?

In the US it's an amusement park like disneyland, but on
a much smaller scale. it must be funded by the Hershy candy company
because they call it "Hershy park", unfortunately they don't
have rivers of choclate and tons of free candy, (or a free tour
of a chocolate factory). just stuff like roller coasters and bumper
cars.
cathyb - 12 Sep 2005 13:17 GMT
> > > the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
> > > http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Don't you have anything better to do than being a professional
> lackey.

So you have no refutation either?

Do you have anything to say about the actual article posted?

Do you seriously think the whaleto crap John posted had anything to do
with the actual article posted?

Or are you just indulging in ad hominem rubbish?

Cathy
Clinton - 12 Sep 2005 15:33 GMT
> > > > the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
> > > > http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html
> > >
> > > Oh, no actual refutation of the facts given in the article, then?

There is no evidence that this person commited fraud. People draw
incorrect conclusions all the time, even so I suppose some kids
could have had measles vaccine even if it wasn't connected to
autism and a link may still be proven to exist.

Putting this person on trial like that is an abuse of power by
the medical authorities. Gee lets throw everyone who does research
we don't agree with in jail for fraud or use the medical boards to
sue them into oblivion. Thats a police state, not
the freeflow of science regardless of what the final conclusions
regarding. And the only reason they get away with it is because
the public is asleep.

This is what you conformists don't get. The power that be don't
get to harass and sue, and throw people in jail just becuause they
think they are wrong, becuause then the "power that be"
would have to God and always be right.
cathyb - 12 Sep 2005 15:44 GMT
> > > > > the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
> > > > > http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> think they are wrong, becuause then the "power that be"
> would have to God and always be right.

This person's research is being looked at primarily because he caused a
huge public health scare, which certainly was a cause in vaccination
rates dropping, and may therefore have been a factor in subsequent
measles and mumps outbreaks.

From the Times article:

"In the original Lancet paper, the only evidence against MMR were
statements by the parents of eight children who linked the vaccine with
autism. The GMC is now trying to establish how many of them were
lawyers' clients."

The Lancet itself has repudiated the research, as have Wakefield's
co-authors. It would appear that he was working with lawyers who were
trying to sue MMR manufacturers at the time of the research.

We 'conformists' would prefer that affairs like Vioxx and this
Wakefield controversy couldn't happen because of better regulation in
research and publication. If you're quite happy for fraud and
scientific dishonesty to go unheeded, then enjoy living with the
results.

Cathy
Clinton - 12 Sep 2005 16:07 GMT
> This person's research is being looked at primarily because he caused a
> huge public health scare, which certainly was a cause in vaccination
> rates dropping, and may therefore have been a factor in subsequent
> measles and mumps outbreaks.

And that is the point. That is not a valid reason for doing whatever
the medical powers are doing. That is what conformism means, you
act according to whether an action is going to "rock the boat",
not based on its own merits. In fact under such a system leaps
forward are less likely to be made because no one wants to take risk
and be the nail sticking up which gets pounded down by the hammer.

> We 'conformists' would prefer that affairs like Vioxx and this
> Wakefield controversy couldn't happen because of better regulation in
> research and publication. If you're quite happy for fraud and
> scientific dishonesty to go unheeded, then enjoy living with the
> results.

If your definition of "fraud" is getting funding and having that
source of funding be biased the entire federal government is
guitly of fraud and should be thrown in jail (even though I
think this happened in britian). That goes for the politicians
too and most private doctors who conduct "fraudulent" and "biased",
"funded" research for industry.
cathyb - 12 Sep 2005 16:20 GMT
> > This person's research is being looked at primarily because he caused a
> > huge public health scare, which certainly was a cause in vaccination
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> And that is the point. That is not a valid reason for doing whatever
> the medical powers are doing.

If his research had any validity, that might be so. But as it turned
out, it did not. I note that you have both the remarkable lack of data
on which he based his conclusions, and the in-your-face conflict of
interest he attempted to cover up. You know, the one where he came up
with a conclusion that indicted vaccines on the basis of eight case
studies of kids involved in a case suing vaccine manufacturers.

> That is what conformism means, you
> act according to whether an action is going to "rock the boat",
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> guitly of fraud and should be thrown in jail (even though I
> think this happened in britian).

Yes, it did. The fraud was his not telling anyone about...

f.ck it. Bloody read about the case before you start pontificating over
other's reasons for criticising the good doctor.

> That goes for the politicians
> too and most private doctors who conduct "fraudulent" and "biased",
> "funded" research for industry.

And you think that's ok?

It's not me who's the lackey then.
cathyb - 12 Sep 2005 16:24 GMT
> > > This person's research is being looked at primarily because he caused a
> > > huge public health scare, which certainly was a cause in vaccination
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> with a conclusion that indicted vaccines on the basis of eight case
> studies of kids involved in a case suing vaccine manufacturers.

Ooops. That should have been 'I note that you have ignored both...'

> > That is what conformism means, you
> > act according to whether an action is going to "rock the boat",
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> It's not me who's the lackey then.
Rich - 12 Sep 2005 15:46 GMT
>> > > > the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
>> > > > http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the medical authorities. Gee lets throw everyone who does research
> we don't agree with

Doing lumbar punctures on children who can derive no benefit from them is
beyond unethical; it is criminal.

> in jail for fraud or use the medical boards to
> sue them into oblivion. Thats a police state, not
> the freeflow of science regardless of what the final conclusions
> regarding. And the only reason they get away with it is because
> the public is asleep.

It's a good thing that the public is awake enough to prevent this monster
from harming any more children.

> This is what you conformists don't get. The power that be don't
> get to harass and sue, and throw people in jail just becuause they
> think they are wrong, becuause then the "power that be"
> would have to God and always be right.

The "powers that be", are, as the plaintif line in a criminal indictment
shows, "the people". Certainly "the people" do have the right to determine
what is right or wrong.
Signature


--Rich

Recommended websites:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
http://www.acahf.org.au
http://www.quackwatch.org/
http://www.skeptic.com/
http://www.csicop.org/

Clinton - 12 Sep 2005 15:58 GMT
> Doing lumbar punctures on children who can derive no benefit from them is
> beyond unethical; it is criminal.

It seems the bulk of the "accusations" are "political" charges
of conflict of interest which as already pointed out could be
leveled at any doctor doing research or working for the government.
And suppose a link was or is found. He would be hero.

I have no idea what a lumbar puncture is so I don't know if this
and other tests done on the children, were ethical or not.
Rich - 12 Sep 2005 16:16 GMT
>> Doing lumbar punctures on children who can derive no benefit from them is
>> beyond unethical; it is criminal.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I have no idea what a lumbar puncture is so I don't know if this
> and other tests done on the children, were ethical or not.

A lumbar puncture, popularly known as a "spinal tap" is an invasive
procedure that entails inserting a needle between the 4th and 5th lumbar
vertibrae into the spinal canal for the purpose of withdrawing specimens of
cerebrospinal fluid. When indicated for the diagnosis of disease, it is an
immensely valuable tool, but it is not without risks. To expose children to
those risks, simply in the hope of gathering ammunition for an anti-vac
agenda, when the procedure has no diagnostic value whatsoever for the
children, is abuse of the most vile sort.
Signature


--Rich

Recommended websites:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
http://www.acahf.org.au
http://www.quackwatch.org/
http://www.skeptic.com/
http://www.csicop.org/

Mark Probert - 12 Sep 2005 23:13 GMT
>>>Doing lumbar punctures on children who can derive no benefit from them is
>>>beyond unethical; it is criminal.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> agenda, when the procedure has no diagnostic value whatsoever for the
> children, is abuse of the most vile sort.

Agreed. YS had a LP to test his response to Baclofen before he had major
surgery. While invasive, it is far less invasive than the major surgery.
If there was no response to Baclofen, we would have gone home to search
for more treatments.
HCN - 13 Sep 2005 01:02 GMT
>>> Doing lumbar punctures on children who can derive no benefit from them
>>> is
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> anti-vac agenda, when the procedure has no diagnostic value whatsoever for
> the children, is abuse of the most vile sort.

I've seen anti-vax folks wonder why no one did the same studies as
Wakefield.  I'll make the conjecture that not only was the premise flawed,
BUT that it violated a few rules pertaining to human subjects.

> --Rich
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> http://www.skeptic.com/
> http://www.csicop.org/
Mark Probert - 12 Sep 2005 14:07 GMT
>>>the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
>>>http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Don't you have anything better to do than being a professional
> lackey.

I am truly sad that you cannot handle the truth that one of the heroes
of the anti-vac liars is about to get officially roasted for actions
that, if done by an employee of the FDA would cause you and your ilk to
post a gadzillion lines of diatribe about how unethical the FDA is.
Clinton - 12 Sep 2005 15:37 GMT
> >>>the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
> >>>http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I am truly sad that you cannot handle the truth that one of the heroes
> of the anti-vac liars is about to get officially roasted for actions

I'm more worried that certain people with generic sounding names
constantly pop up to criticize anyone who questions "the system",
whether its this or other issues. not that it will affect me
personally, i'm not really from the alt-med scene.

> that, if done by an employee of the FDA would cause you and your ilk to
> post a gadzillion lines of diatribe about how unethical the FDA is.

Acutally the FDA gets sued all the time. All the time.
Mark Probert - 12 Sep 2005 15:59 GMT
>>>>>the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
>>>>>http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> whether its this or other issues. not that it will affect me
> personally, i'm not really from the alt-med scene.

Generic sounding names? Bowditch, Probert, Wright, Thorson, RichX2????

>>that, if done by an employee of the FDA would cause you and your ilk to
>>post a gadzillion lines of diatribe about how unethical the FDA is.
>
> Acutally the FDA gets sued all the time. All the time.

Nod, and that is my point.
Mark Probert - 12 Sep 2005 14:03 GMT
> the  Medical cartel chief media smearer with more drivel
> http://www.whale.to/a/wakefield.html

John cannot handle the FACT that his hero was a crook and incompetent.

Now, his hero is inflicted on the US.
 
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