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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / September 2005

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The Red Cross

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john - 07 Sep 2005 20:38 GMT
http://www.whale.to/b/red_cross_h.html
Kara - 07 Sep 2005 21:54 GMT
Ask a WWII vet what they think of that lousy organization. As my
grandfather said, "they charged me even for a lousy cup of coffee".

This organization keeps duping people and people keep giving despite
their poor record keeping & poor managment. There is a long history.

It wasnt just 9/11, Hurricane Katrina, or  WWII. The Red Cross fended
off lawsuits after the Oklahoma City Bombing...know why?? They had
victims PERSONAL mail sent to their offices, where they opened it and
removed cash for their own use!

How come people/ organizations continue to support them? I just dont
get it.

If stealing wasnt bad enough, for years they continued to distribute
blood that was more than suspected of being infected with HIV.

They continue to refuse to test for Lyme disease (they wont even ask on
the form if you have been exposed or have had unknown recent bites).
They continue to keep a monopoly on blood.
Mark Probert - 07 Sep 2005 22:58 GMT
> Ask a WWII vet what they think of that lousy organization.

As a matter of fact, I have. My father, who was a POW after being shot
down over Occupied Holland. The Red Cross was the only organization that
visited him in the Stalag.

Oh...me too! When that same father had a heart attack, and was supposed
to die, but was saved by Evil Organized Medicine, they arranged for me
to fly home from the boonies in South East Asia directly to McGuire Air
Force Base in NJ, non-stop.

The RC ran some programs in Saigon, Cam Ranh Bay and other places, and
we were never charged a dime.

As my
> grandfather said, "they charged me even for a lousy cup of coffee".
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> victims PERSONAL mail sent to their offices, where they opened it and
> removed cash for their own use!

First I heard of it. Can you provide real documentation?

> How come people/ organizations continue to support them? I just dont
> get it.
>
> If stealing wasnt bad enough, for years they continued to distribute
> blood that was more than suspected of being infected with HIV.

First I heard of it. Can you provide real documentation?

> They continue to refuse to test for Lyme disease (they wont even ask on
> the form if you have been exposed or have had unknown recent bites).
> They continue to keep a monopoly on blood.
Kara - 08 Sep 2005 03:20 GMT
Sure.

Oklahoma City:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_41_17/ai_80449016

Other business practices in question:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m5072/is_3_23/ai_69390533

Article on false reporting by the Red Cross of conditions in
concentration camps:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/redcross.html

Apology by Red Cross on its activities in regards to the Holocaust:
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=5994

Bullitin board where WWII vets have posted their experiances with the
Red Cross:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1309210/posts

**
As one WWII vets son told me yest, 'we had a saying in my house. When
the Red Cross gets there, the Salavation Army helps them off the bus.'
This mans father had mandatory donate part of his salary. The Sgt.
literally handed over part of each man's salary to a Red Cross person
standing by.
Kara - 08 Sep 2005 03:38 GMT
Canadian Red Cross--HIV:
http://www.truthout.org/issues_05/printer_060105HA.shtml

>From a bill to compensate those who were infected with HIV
7) the Federal Government failed to fulfill its responsibility to
properly regulate the blood-products industry, and thus exposed
individuals with blood-clotting disorders, such as hemophilia, and
their families to potential infection with a fatal disease
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/Organizations/healthnet/HIV/docs/misc/misc000286.html

More on HIV
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/Organizations/healthnet/HIV/docs/misc/misc000286.html#IOM

More Red Cross Issues
http://www.the-catbird-seat.net/RedCross.htm

Churches not complaining about the Red Cross--donations rolling in,
nothing rolling out
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/12567160.htm

There was an article that ran the other day, where a Red Cross
physician was helping enforce Islamic Law by cutting off the hands of
patient.

**
You and your dad may have had a differant experiance, but there are
enough questions about this organization to pause.
Mark Probert - 08 Sep 2005 23:42 GMT
> Sure.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Other business practices in question:
> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m5072/is_3_23/ai_69390533

Insight Ragazine?

> Article on false reporting by the Red Cross of conditions in
> concentration camps:
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/redcross.html

"The Red Cross did much good work, but it often failed POWs as miserably
as it did the inmates of concentration camps. The organization's options
were limited by the Nazis, but the idea that it therefore had no moral
responsibility to speak out on behalf of the latter because it
threatened the good work it was able to do for POWs is, in retrospect,
obscene."

Disagree. What the Red Cross did was to deliver their packages to the
POWs. As I pointed out, my father was one of the POWs who felt well
served by them. You see, these packages, in addition to cigarettes,
soap, etc. had such handy things as area maps, train schedules, saws,
and other similar goodies stashed in such a way that the Nazis did not
find them when they searched the packages. I still have my father map
and saw.

> Apology by Red Cross on its activities in regards to the Holocaust:
> http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=5994

The Geneva based Red Cross...hmmm...didn't the Swiss send jews back to
Germany? Why, sure they did. I submit that it was a "Swiss Thing" (and,
so did my father who witnessed it while interred in Switzerland. That is
one of the things that caused him to convert to Judaism.

> Bullitin board where WWII vets have posted their experiances with the
> Red Cross:
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1309210/posts

Some interesting yarns. I especially liked the ones about the Black
Sheep and Blackburns Irregulars, which are unverifiable. You see, I am a
WWII history buff...and I have read just about everything on the Black
Sheep and some on Blackburns Irregulars. I have no recollection
whatsoever of anyone downing 8 Zeroes in one sorte, especially as
described as you referenced.

Further, the fellow with all the medals seems a bit incredible,
especially when you consider:

http://www.acepilots.com/usmc_vmf214.html

and the fact that the tours of duty of the Black Sheep and Blackburns
Irregulars overlapped. Hard to be in two places at the same time.

We Vietnam Vets refer to this as "stolen valor".

> **
> As one WWII vets son told me yest, 'we had a saying in my house. When
> the Red Cross gets there, the Salavation Army helps them off the bus.'
> This mans father had mandatory donate part of his salary. The Sgt.
> literally handed over part of each man's salary to a Red Cross person
> standing by.

AFAIAC, it smells.
Shylirin - 08 Sep 2005 08:23 GMT
> Ask a WWII vet what they think of that lousy organization. As my
> grandfather said, "they charged me even for a lousy cup of coffee".

From http://www.greaterkzooredcross.org/News/Myths%20&%20Legends.htm:

The truth is that Red Cross officials and volunteers were just as upset
about the sales as were the soldiers. The Red Cross was ordered to sell the
refreshments rather than give them away as planned by Secretary of War Henry
Stimson in 1942. Noting that American soldiers in Europe had more money than
their Allied counterparts, Stimson feared that morale among the Allied
troops was suffering. American soldier received refreshments free; Allied
soldiers had to pay for them. To make living conditions more even, in the
hopes of improving morale, Stimson ordered the Red Cross to charge for
refreshments in the "rear area." Mobile units that served at the front lines
were exempted from the order and did not charge.

II.                 Myths about World War II
A.    The Red Cross sold cigarettes, blankets, and other "comfort" items
during WWII. The truth: if cigarettes or other such items that were
designated as "free" were sold, it was illegal and in violation of Red Cross
policy. It is believed that a few unscrupulous people did sell those items
provided by the Red Cross, but it was for personal gain, not to help the Red
Cross. In addition, Red Cross could not control items given to a serviceman
then sold by the service member to others.

B.     The Red Cross sold blood during the war. The truth: The American Red
Cross collected more than 13 million pints of blood for use in the was
effort at home and abroad, but "administered" no blood to the wounded
anywhere in the world. Neither did it ever charge anyone for blood. Once the
blood was turned over to military or civilian hospitals, it was out of Red
Cross control.

C.    The Red Cross indiscriminately refused to provide travel funds for som
e service men during the war. The truth: Travel funds for service personnel
were routinely provided when the commanding officer of an individual's unit
authorized emergency leave orderes. The Red Cross also authorized
pre-embarkation and post-embarkation furloughs, but the cost became so great
as troop strength increased, that these ordinary leave loans had to be
discontinued in 1944 as they interfered with other more essential military
services. A total of $2.5 million loans were made during the war.

Today, as always, military commanders make decisions about emergency leaves.
Red Cross provides verified information about the family or home situation
prompting the emergency.

Also, http://www.amherst.edu/~sajudycki/disaster_relief.html
http://www.sdarc.org/site/pp.asp?c=erKQL4NQE&b=131772
http://www.redcross.org/article/0,1072,0_312_4196,00.html

In all my work with the current Red Cross organization (wasn't around in
WWII), I have never taken a single penny from anyone in exchange for a
service or item.  I have written many *free* checks to victims of all sorts
of disasters; I have manned a *free* canteen for firefighters working
wildfires; I have performed every kind of odd job and task from cleaning to
child care; I have driven 30 miles just to take a canteen of coffee to a
family that lost everything in a house fire; the list could go on all night.
I don't get paid.  I've never seen ANY volunteer get paid for work.  I have
been reimbursed for purchasing things with my own money (such as water) for
victims/rescue workers because it would take too long to drive the hour back
to the chapter to get what was in the fridge.  What did they pay me?  Just
the cost for the items.  Not gas. Not mileage on my vehicle. Just what's on
the receipt.  Did I charge for the water? Nope.

So, whatever the history of the organization and requirements of old
governments, the current organization that I volunteer for and have had
experience with has been no less reputable than any other charity, and
better than some.  Yes, they have had issues because individuals make
mistakes, but these are corrected and not repeated.  I like volunteering
there.  I like helping people one-on-one.  Makes me happy to hand them a
meal and a check so they can get clothing, food, etc. at the store and begin
feeling like there is some hope of life returning to something resembling
normal.

Now, it's very late and I've rambled on quite enough about it.  Lack of
sleep tends to make for long messages... sorry!  Just that my personal
experiences create a much different opinion of the organization.

Shylirin
Remove the splinter to reply.
> This organization keeps duping people and people keep giving despite
> their poor record keeping & poor managment. There is a long history.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the form if you have been exposed or have had unknown recent bites).
> They continue to keep a monopoly on blood.
Rosalie B. - 08 Sep 2005 13:38 GMT
>> Ask a WWII vet what they think of that lousy organization. As my
>> grandfather said, "they charged me even for a lousy cup of coffee".

I was a Red Cross volunteer for several years (1967 to 1978) as a
Water Safety Instructor.  I was not allowed to charge for my services,
and I did not.  However there was a guy I worked for that had the
'concession' at a military base for teaching beginner swimming.  The
base collected a $5 fee per child for the classes, which they gave to
him.  They didn't charge him for the use of the pool.  He would taken
in about 20 children in the beginner class, and they would be 'taught'
by the students in the life-saving class (also unpaid) that ran
afterwards.  I was the life-saving instructor.  The life-saving
students also paid for their lessons.  All of that went to him too.

I have taught classes where I've asked the moms of the children
involved to watch my younger children while I did the teaching.

>From http://www.greaterkzooredcross.org/News/Myths%20&%20Legends.htm:
>
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
>> the form if you have been exposed or have had unknown recent bites).
>> They continue to keep a monopoly on blood.

grandma Rosalie
Sdores - 08 Sep 2005 13:52 GMT
My son was taught to swim by the Red Cross and we had to pay for the
service.  To me it was worth it because my son did learn to swim.  He had to
have these lessons every summer for a few years since we started the lessons
when he was crawling, living in FL swimming is very important esp. for
little people.  UM MOM Susan
>>> Ask a WWII vet what they think of that lousy organization. As my
>>> grandfather said, "they charged me even for a lousy cup of coffee".
[quoted text clipped - 130 lines]
>
> grandma Rosalie
Rosalie B. - 08 Sep 2005 15:51 GMT
>My son was taught to swim by the Red Cross and we had to pay for the
>service.  To me it was worth it because my son did learn to swim.  He had to
>have these lessons every summer for a few years since we started the lessons
>when he was crawling, living in FL swimming is very important esp. for
>little people.  UM MOM Susan

Yes I agree that the swim lessons are important.  Usually the pool
collects a pool fee and this does not go to pay the instructors who
are volunteers.  What was unusual about this situation was that the
pool collected the fee and then turned the whole thing over to the
instructor.  

>>>> Ask a WWII vet what they think of that lousy organization. As my
>>>> grandfather said, "they charged me even for a lousy cup of coffee".
[quoted text clipped - 130 lines]
>>
>> grandma Rosalie

grandma Rosalie
Shylirin - 09 Sep 2005 05:39 GMT
> >My son was taught to swim by the Red Cross and we had to pay for the
> >service.  To me it was worth it because my son did learn to swim.  He had to
> >have these lessons every summer for a few years since we started the lessons
> >when he was crawling, living in FL swimming is very important esp. for
> >little people.  UM MOM Susan

I completely agree... my mom had us in swimming lessons as soon as we could
toddle so she didn't have to worry about us getting places we shouldn't have
been!  Being in such a wet location, I'd worry about all the accidents that
could happen and would want my kids in lessons ASAP too.  :)

> Yes I agree that the swim lessons are important.  Usually the pool
> collects a pool fee and this does not go to pay the instructors who
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> >"Rosalie B." <gmbeasley@mindspring.com> wrote in message
*snip*

I do know that there is a charge for taking a class such as Swimming, First
Aid, CPR, etc., but the charge is stated up front and is for the materials
the student uses/takes home: i.e., books, cards, etc.  These charges are
stated up front, and are not related to any Disaster Relief.  [Sorry, I
should have clarified in my first post that I was responding to Disaster
Relief items and services.  Completely my fault for not phrasing it better.
Items and services for Disaster Relief should not have any charges
associated with them, since they are a gift to the victims from the American
People.]  The instructors are usually volunteers who do not get paid.  There
are a few folks who teach these that get paid, but that is because they are
employees of the Red Cross and they are expected to teach as part of their
regular job duties.  They don't get paid extra for teaching or anything.
The situation you described Rosalie sounds a bit fishy... did you happen to
mention what was going on to anyone at your local Chapter?  Was he
responsible for collecting class fees?  As much as I'd like to believe that
everyone is honest, sometimes honesty is easier in a group setting. :)

I've not taught any swimming classes, but was thinking of getting training
for them.  How did you like it?

Shylirin
Rosalie B. - 09 Sep 2005 13:55 GMT
<snip>
>> Yes I agree that the swim lessons are important.  Usually the pool
>> collects a pool fee and this does not go to pay the instructors who
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>responsible for collecting class fees?  As much as I'd like to believe that
>everyone is honest, sometimes honesty is easier in a group setting. :)

I thought it was definitely fishy, but I was constrained from
reporting it because I had to attend an update to renew my
certificate, and I could not do so unless I was teaching in the local
chapter.  Being a Navy wife, I was only in that area for 8 months, and
I didn't have any other connections where I could actually go and
teach to qualify for the update.  

Also I didn't find out how it was run until after I was already
committed.

No he wasn't responsible for collecting the fees - that was done by
the Navy base rec. people.  They paid him to run the classes.

>I've not taught any swimming classes, but was thinking of getting training
>for them.  How did you like it?

I got into it totally by accident.  We were living in Key West (I was
about 30 years old and had 2 children), and another one of the wives
in our group said, Why don't you come and take Water Safety Instructor
classes.  I didn't know that meant "swimming teacher".  I thought it
was something about teaching people not to dive into water that they
didn't know, and not to go into the water for an hour after eating and
stuff like that.  Kind of First Aid around the water kind of thing.

And then, there I was in this class!!!  They decided that we were all
out of shape, so we started out doing 100 bobs and then swam 1/2 mile
each morning.  We did 9 circuits of the Olympic size swimming pool
doing one circuit of each of the strokes we were supposed to teach,
with instructors standing around the edge yelling criticism at us.  

I've always enjoyed swimming and so I did like this, and finished the
class.  I don't know whether most classes are like this, but I suspect
not.  The class was every weekday morning (about 3 hours) for 9 weeks.
Originally it was supposed to be shorter, but they kept extending it.

I did the update when we were in Philadelphia which was mostly lecture
with little pool work, and then I did another one when we were in
Maryland.  

The Maryland update was so terrible I said that I would not continue.
It was not organized very well, and they had us doing rescue
techniques over and over again (for different people) for 2.5 days,
that by the time I was at the last session I was so tired (and I was
only about 36 at the time although I had 4 children by now) that I
couldn't sleep and spent the night with uncontrollable tears rolling
down my cheeks.  

My dh was deployed, so my 14 yo daughter found me typing feedback for
the course at about 7 am., still crying and she brought me some tea
and toast so I was able to go back for the final session.  But I
decided that I wouldn't do this again - I would let my certification
lapse.

By that time I had been involved in coaching swim teams for 4 years,
and I stopped doing that and started teaching school only a couple of
years later.

grandma Rosalie
Shylirin - 10 Sep 2005 01:09 GMT
> I thought it was definitely fishy, but I was constrained from
> reporting it because I had to attend an update to renew my
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> No he wasn't responsible for collecting the fees - that was done by
> the Navy base rec. people.  They paid him to run the classes.

Strange... definitely think there may have been some hanky panky there.  I
wish you could have reported it and not had to worry about repercussions, so
if there was some backhanded stuff it could be dealt with.  Unfortunately,
people doing things like that tend to be vengeful of any reports and you
don't want to be in that position.

> >I've not taught any swimming classes, but was thinking of getting training
> >for them.  How did you like it?
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> grandma Rosalie

Wow... I must have been blessed with a great local and regional chapter.
Don't get me wrong... I'm not naieve enough to think every chapter has great
networking and personable employees and volunteers!  All my instructor
classes were laid back and geared to help you improve or maintain both
teaching and practical skills.  They didn't hesitate to call you on it when
you made a mistake, but then the instructors worked with you to make sure
you understood why it was wrong and how to keep it from being an issue.
Each individual instructor had his or her own style and flow to the class,
and I won't hesitate to say I liked some much more than others, but I never
felt harrassed or "run through the gauntlet".  I am so sorry to hear that a
terrible instructor caused so much angst for you that you felt you had to
give up something you loved to avoid taking the update classes.  I hate to
think of how many other people had the same experience and left as well, or
students that may have been exposed to that.  Good instructors are a
blessing, and bad experiences can detract so much from the good things that
happen from these groups.

Shylirin
Rosalie B. - 10 Sep 2005 02:09 GMT
>> I thought it was definitely fishy, but I was constrained from
>> reporting it because I had to attend an update to renew my
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
>blessing, and bad experiences can detract so much from the good things that
>happen from these groups.

Really I enjoyed the initial training.  I was a SAHM, and my kids were
either in school or could be dropped off at the nursery - I liked
swimming and found it fun.  I liked teaching.  I thought they had a
good syllabus which worked.

The only time I had a problem was with the Maryland update, and that
was not ONE instructor but about 6, and the problem was not what they
asked us to do, which was reasonable, but that they did not coordinate
with either other.  So the guys who had us Friday afternoon and the
guys who had us Friday night and the guys who had us Sat. morning and
Sat afternoon etc. all asked us to do the same kinds of things -
diving in and subduing someone, and pulling them out of the pool kinds
of things, and showing swimming laps kinds of things.  It wouldn't
have been a problem probably had I been younger, or had a been a male
person, but  doing those things twice in one evening and then again
three times the following day it was a significant strain for me.
Plus I had to drive about a hour to get to the pool and then to get
home.  Fortunately on Sunday, someone gave me a ride.

grandma Rosalie
Kara - 08 Sep 2005 16:02 GMT
I dont have a problem with the Red Cross charging for services.

What I do have a problem with is them collecting donations and then not
distributing the funds.

I dont trust them.
Kara - 08 Sep 2005 16:00 GMT
The vet bullitin board makes comments on this.

The history of the Red Cross is the same thing over and over again.
Even if there was an explanation for WWII, what about 9/11, what about
the blood, what about Oklahoma City.

I'll never donate a dime to those people. Never.
Shylirin - 09 Sep 2005 06:24 GMT
> The vet bullitin board makes comments on this.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I'll never donate a dime to those people. Never.

As far as having a monopoly on the blood supply, there are a lot of Blood
Banks other than the Red Cross, and in most places these local Banks get
more business because they can charge cheaper rates on each unit of blood
due to differences in transport and processing, etc.  The Red Cross is a
nationwide blood banking network, but it is far from a monopoly.

http://www.americasblood.org/

On this link, click on the map and then on each state... some states have
just one or two alternatives, and some have lots.  The Red Cross is vital to
blood banking due to it's nationwide network of donation centers.  They are
especially important when a rare blood type is needed due to that network.
In addition to the A,B,O, and Rh identifiers on red blood cells, there are
more than 15 (in a quick count) other identifiers that can cause a unit of
blood to be incompatible with a person needing it.  If the identifiers
between two people are incompatible, the reaction from a transfusion can
kill the person receiving the blood.

So, rather thann being a national monopoly, Red Cross Blood Services is more
accurately a resource.  That being said, let me also say that in some more
rural or remote regions, the Red Cross may be the only locally available
choice for blood products, which can create a local "monopoly" the same way
only having one choice in grocery stores, dentists, or schools is a
"monopoly".  In that situation, you basically have two choices: what's
available or nothing.

http://www.med.unc.edu/wrkunits/syllabus/yr4/gen/medhist/publish/30

This link has a great history of Transfusion Medicine, and notes that
regional blood centers collect approximately 75% of the blood supply for the
United States.

http://www.sandiegobloodbank.org/education/blood_banking_history.php

A nice timeline site.

http://www.aabb.org/All_About_Blood/FAQs/aabb_faqs.htm#8

Also, this is a great FAQ from the American Association of Blood Banking
(not affiliated with the American Red Cross.) This is the professional
organization for blood bank lab technicians.

One other thing... I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to
change your mind about any donations.  This isn't a request for a donation
and I'm not much for fundraising.  I realize that by responding extensively
to this thread that my intent might come across wrong, and I just wanted to
set things straight.

Shylirin
Mark Probert - 09 Sep 2005 14:33 GMT
>>The vet bullitin board makes comments on this.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> to this thread that my intent might come across wrong, and I just wanted to
> set things straight.

I got your intent quite clearly. You want to use facts to show that
Kara's rant is full of sh.t. She accepts whacko conspiracy crap without
critical comment. A visit to Snopes.com will also show the true story of
the donations after 9/11, which severely affected a significant part of
my community on Long Island.

In that regard, you have done a fine job, and, I will ensure that one of
the fund raisers I have some influence over will send their money to the
Red Cross.
Shylirin - 10 Sep 2005 03:51 GMT
> I got your intent quite clearly. You want to use facts to show that
> Kara's rant is full of sh.t. She accepts whacko conspiracy crap without
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the fund raisers I have some influence over will send their money to the
> Red Cross.

Thanks for your information, and is everyone in the community handling the
recent disaster ok?  I'm sure many folks there are sympathizing with the
Katrina folks, but if you know of anyone who is reliving the horror of their
own 9/11 experiences, they should be able to go to a Red Cross office (or
probably the Salvation Army or any religious charity as well...) and ask to
chat with a Disaster Mental Health worker who can help them work through
those strong emotions.

I deeply appreciate the offer of financial support since I've seen firsthand
how much it helps both victims and rescue workers, but I'd love even more to
see communities encouraged to become educated and involved in local disaster
response organizations so that your donation goes even further to fill not
only immediate needs, but also the future needs of your communities and
others.  If everyone knows how to prepare for disasters common in your area,
it is easier to mount a fast, effective response even in those events that
you think would never happen.

And now for a shameless Red Cross plug for anyone interested in
volunteering:

This is the link for the basic Introduction to Disaster course and volunteer
information:
http://www.redcross.org/donate/volunteer/

In the blue box is the class link.  It is free, so you can check it out and
see the basics of what Disaster Response is all about.

Shylirin
Mark Probert - 10 Sep 2005 15:45 GMT
>>I got your intent quite clearly. You want to use facts to show that
>>Kara's rant is full of sh.t. She accepts whacko conspiracy crap without
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> chat with a Disaster Mental Health worker who can help them work through
> those strong emotions.

That jogged my memory a bit. One of the victims was a father of 4, which
included special needs twins. The family is a member of my Temple and we
reached out to them at the time for support. We have two special needs
boys and we helped with getting the twins into an appropriate early
intervention program. The mother was helped tremendously by a counselor
from the RC.

> I deeply appreciate the offer of financial support since I've seen firsthand
> how much it helps both victims and rescue workers, but I'd love even more to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it is easier to mount a fast, effective response even in those events that
> you think would never happen.

If Katrina had hit near my home, we could swim three miles to where the
new shoreline would be.

I was talking with the assistant fire chief the other AM while getting
coffee before hitting my office. I mentioned that I was shocked at the
number of victims in wheelchairs. He mentioned that one of our
legislators had given a special grant (yes, PORK) where the FD would be
surveying the community for those people who would need special assistance.

> And now for a shameless Red Cross plug for anyone interested in
> volunteering:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> In the blue box is the class link.  It is free, so you can check it out and
> see the basics of what Disaster Response is all about.
Shylirin - 10 Sep 2005 03:07 GMT
> The vet bullitin board makes comments on this.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I'll never donate a dime to those people. Never.

In regards to the Oklahoma City mail issue, I hadn't heard of this at all,
and wanted to check into it and get more information before posting.

http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2001/11/05/National/The-Red.Cr
oss.In.The.Cross.Hairs-117216.shtml

This was the only article I could find at all.  If anyone finds another,
please let me know.
The article states that "Mike Ellis, the postal inspector in Oklahoma City
at the time of the bombing, tells Insight: "These procedures will change
post office to post office depending on the situation. There is no set
policy. The Postal Service sat down with the American Red Cross, the
Salvation Army and the governor's and mayor's offices, and it was decided
the post office would deliver it if it was addressed to specific places and
people and the Red Cross would take any undeliverable mail."

If I read everything correctly, the Red Cross was only dealing with
undeliverable mail, and the definition of "undeliverable" was set by the
Postal Service, who had guidelines to make sure only this type of mail was
sent to the Red Cross.  Mail with addresses was delivered, contents intact,
by the Post Office.  "Both the Postal Service and the Red Cross have
confirmed that within weeks of the bombings most of this mail was forwarded
through the postal system to the Oklahoma City chapter of the American Red
Cross where it was opened and read by volunteers. When possible, letters and
packages were forwarded to the intended families"

So it appears there is a discrepancy between what the families believe
happened and what the Post Office found happened.  I have not had time to
call anyone at the OKC Red Cross chapter to get their financials or
anything.

The article did say "Formal complaints were lodged with the Postal Service
and an investigation was conducted by Ellis, who in the process turned
information over to the U.S. attorney in Oklahoma City. A grand jury needed
to issue subpoenas to the Red Cross. It took testimony from a variety of
individuals. Ultimately, as far as Insight has been able to learn, nothing
came of the investigation."

It seems that even an investigation couldn't turn up anything, and the Post
Office is usually very adamant about prosecuting any type of mail fraud.
Since I couldn't find anything in other news media, there is no other
supporting information at all to tip the scales towards either side of the
issue.

Please make sure you read the entire article so that any quotes are not
taken out of context.

I did find the following information about ongoing care provided to victims,
so monies are still being disbursed to those needing it:

http://www.redcross.org/article/0,1072,0_312_4196,00.html
http://www.redcross.org/press/archives/041900.html

Now, this is the opinion part that I deduced from this research, and which
is not explicitly stated in any article I could find:  The original article
was very aggressive in nature, and that naturally puts me on the defensive,
regardless of whether I agree with what the original statement was.  I get
the feeling that "he protesteth too much" and all.  I did my level best to
put that aside and consider the statements and contradictions presented
within the original article itself, and I get the feeling it just didn't
hold water.  With no followup article or more information, I just can't say
for sure what happened, just that I have the feeling there is a LOT more
that went unsaid, and this information is vital to have before I could begin
to have a truly informed opinion. My gut feeling is that the issue didn't
happen the way it was presented, and that the Postal Service's involvement
(as well as the opinion of other agencies such as the Salvation Army)  made
sure the Red Cross wouldn't have broken any rules or policies.

I will try to find more information from the OKC Chapter, Postal Service,
and legal sources.  If anyone living in that area would care to assist to
clear up this confusion, it would be greatly appreciated.

Shylirin
john - 08 Sep 2005 10:59 GMT
all charities get taken over by the Cartel
http://www.whale.to/cancer/charities.html and end up screwing for public for
money, as if robbing the taxpayer wasn't enough, although they take them
over to stop the truth coming out

> Ask a WWII vet what they think of that lousy organization. As my
> grandfather said, "they charged me even for a lousy cup of coffee".
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> the form if you have been exposed or have had unknown recent bites).
> They continue to keep a monopoly on blood.
Ilena Rose - 09 Sep 2005 02:06 GMT
First Person: Disastrous Disaster Relief

Thursday, September 08, 2005
By Brunilda Nazario, MD

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168849,00.html

ATLANTA — WebMD Medical Editor Brunilda Nazario, MD, spent three days
at shelters in the Atlanta area – and was shocked at the inadequate
resources. America is not prepared for disaster, she says.

I’m not associated with the Red Cross. But when evacuees began pouring
into the Atlanta area, I volunteered to see patients at a temporary
Red Cross shelter set up just south of Atlanta.

At that time there were no doctors at the center to see the patients;
this was only the first stage for many of the arrivals here. Many
evacuees were elderly and had special needs; they left their homes
prior to the hurricane with the expectation of returning soon.

The medical needs at the center initially included assisting older
people and helping to arrange daily medications and routine medical
care. Basic needs like calling in prescriptions for chronic medical
conditions became a tremendous task.

Sharing my experience in the aftermath of Katrina may highlight
glaring examples of a serious lack of preparedness in this country.

Many basic first aid supplies, such as over-the-counter disinfectants
for superficial wounds and scrapes, a container for needle disposal,
and accessible telephone lines were unavailable. In one makeshift
shelter, televisions, radios, and newspapers weren’t available to help
keep the victims informed about the disaster. While the rest of the
world stayed glued to the media coverage of the disaster, the victims
themselves were left with questions about what was going on.

Despite the power of medical advances in this country, we did not have
sufficient medical manpower mobilized to handle this major natural
disaster.

As the days passed, a very different group of individuals were being
seen in the shelter; a local hospital facilitated medical care during
day hours. Nighttime hours, however, were without medical care.

Stories of individuals caught in the hurricane were heard everywhere.
Bruises, blisters, scrapes, and extreme emotional and physical fatigue
were surfacing.

People were now coming from New Orleans and Mississippi, and different
emotions were beginning to emerge -- denial (as a way to deal with
this reality) and anger directed at the staff were reactions being
expressed. Elderly victims expressed confusion, teens revealed
depression, and parents attempted to provide reassurance with few
social resources to help them.

The lack of this country’s preparedness is completely unacceptable.

I also want to share stories of people I met at the shelters --
especially one New Orleans nurse who braved the rising waters in a
children’s hospital before driving hours and hours to Atlanta. In her,
I saw the mental distress we will find in many more survivors. She
made it through the storm but now must deal with a painful replay of
memories.

Total Chaos at Shelter

When I showed up at the refugee center on Sept. 1, there was a lot of
chaos outside as well as inside the facility. There were probably 800
refugees at that center. The parking lot that was jam-packed, and the
outpouring of donations was more than the facility staff could handle.
People were milling around.

People were dropping off lots of donations; there were clothes bags,
food and water even on the sidewalk outside. No one could identify who
escaped the disaster and who was here to volunteer.

Some people from the nearby neighborhoods were walking in and taking
the donations. The situation not only was chaotic, it was dangerous.
Officers and security initially were nowhere to be seen. No single
team was set up to control or coordinate this effort.

The positive aspects of this shelter: There were several televisions,
which allowed people to congregate -- to watch the coverage, and talk
about their experiences. The sleeping area and cots were grouped
together to form little communities. I think it helped people feel
more comfortable.

There was a nurse’s office that was an adequate size to see patients.
But one big problem surfaced quickly -- there was no phone jack. We
had many elderly people who had run out of medications and needed new
prescriptions called in, but we had no phone! We had my cell phone,
but my battery was pretty drained.

One patient had a history of seizures from a previous gunshot wound to
the head; he hadn’t taken medication for several days. The problem
with seizure medications is that you have to maintain a certain blood
level, so not having taken his medications for a few days made him a
high-risk patient that the medical personnel needed to be aware of. He
was awaiting the arrival of his medications, which would take a few
days.

A second high-risk patient had diabetes. She also had open heart
surgery just a week before I saw her. She didn’t have her insurance
papers, so we couldn’t get insulin for her. But she came with
relatives, so she was sharing some of their insulin. Her surgical
incision was clean but oozing. The stress of the disaster situation
and her lack of insulin would increase the risk of infection to her
wound. The shelter’s initial first aid kit had no form of antiseptic –
no betadine, no iodine, no hydrogen peroxide. I was shocked and angry
at this lack of basic first aid supplies. It is completely
unacceptable.

Trauma Among Refugees

Over the next two days, we began seeing those who weathered the storm
but were able to get out of New Orleans. A mother said she had just
started walking with her children. They had minor bruises, cuts,
scrapes, foot blisters, sores, as well as fungal skin infections and
rashes from walking in the dirty water.

These were fairly healthy people, with no acute medical crises. But we
were beginning to see significant psychological stress. I saw the most
significant case of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in a nurse
who had been working at the children’s hospital. She went through the
whole storm, seeing patients, seeing the water rising, hearing the
rioting, and had been scared for her life.

She and her family had planned to spend Labor Day weekend in Atlanta
with her father. They knew the storm was coming, and her husband took
the kids and headed for Atlanta. She was to follow later. At the last
minute, they switched cars -- she got the larger car, which she didn’t
want because it was harder to park. She had $12 in her purse when she
left the house that morning.

She and her co-workers (and patients) rode out the storm. They were
lucky, she said. They had a lot of generators there, plenty of water,
plenty of food -- although it certainly wasn’t good-tasting food. She
had a pretty good sense of humor as she started the story. But as she
continued, and the memories replayed the trauma in her mind, she broke
down. Her eyes showed despair, and she shook uncontrollably as she
recounted her story of survival. She was getting into a traumatic
state – really reliving everything that happened, all her fears.

There were a couple of kids they had to airlift out, but there was
nowhere for the helicopters to land. The hospital staff cut down a few
bamboo trees around the hospital to help stabilize the ground and
created a stable walkway. They got a child with cerebral palsy onto a
gurney and down the bamboo pathway to where the helicopter could pick
him up and transfer the child to a safe care facility.

In their nursing unit, the staff felt safe. They were listening to the
news, to the warnings of armed looters. Anytime they went into the
hall, they had no idea who was there, she told me. At one point, she
and her co-workers were told they had to evacuate. They pooled their
money together -- $7 from one, $3 from another; she had $12. Luckily,
she discovered, she also had a full tank of gas in that big car.

As they drove off, a man approached the car. They just froze and
didn’t know if he was going to hijack the car or what. She was in
mission mode, and kept driving, kept driving, kept driving. She said
it was a quiet ride up to Atlanta. They made one stop on the way up,
at an IHOP or something. Someone overheard them talking and said she
wanted to pray with them.

At this point in telling her story, the woman began to break down. She
began to realize what she had been through. She remembered the
18-wheelers coming by with generators, the helicopters, the shooting.
She remembered the image in her rear-view mirror of the scene she left
behind, like a war zone. She also remembered the smell.

When she arrived in Atlanta, she ate some macaroni and cheese,
probably the most unhealthy thing you can eat. But she had been so
tired of eating Jell-O and the hospital food. The comfort food tasted
really good to her.

Worst-Case Scenario

Within a couple of days, this New Orleans nurse and the other refugees
had to be transferred to a different shelter -- a sports dome at
Georgia Tech University in downtown Atlanta. That change stirred up
real problems. The Georgia Tech volunteers initially looked at this
strictly as a shelter and would not allow the same services to be
given to the victims, including medical services.

The facility itself was the worst set-up for these people, most of
whom were elderly. They had to go down steep stairs into the playing
field, where cots were set up barracks-style. These cots were very low
to the ground -- just a few inches off the ground. I could see
instantly that elderly people would have a hard time lying down on
them and getting back up. They could easily trip and fall on these
cots, because they were set so close together.

Eventually they took some of the better cots from a shelter at the
natatorium, but it took some convincing. Even though it had been
chaotic in the natatorium, at least it felt more like a home and we
were allowed to handle medical problems.

Refugees in Shock, Anger

Also, many of the volunteer staff did not understand the emotional
state that occurs when a disaster of this nature occurs. There are
stages you expect people to go through. The first stage is usually
denial. These people were still in shock. The next stage is anger. If
you’re a volunteer, you have to be prepared for people to be angry at
you. It’s not that they’re angry at you -- they’re angry at the
situation. You have to accept that and let them vent, because it’s
part of the healing process.

The evacuees were told they had to shut off TVs at 11 p.m., that they
had to go to bed. One woman said, “I’m not turning off that TV. I lost
five children.” She, like the others, was feeling anger, shock, and
was beginning to realize what had happened. You could see it on their
faces: “Now have nothing – yet this is what’s being done to us.”

I visited another shelter later on – a camp with buildings for housing
400 people. This shelter was staffed with a few nurses, a
psychiatrist, a pediatric doctor, and a primary care doctor. The next
day, a cardiologist was there. That shelter was the best-prepared from
an organizational standpoint.

My bottom-line message is this: This country is not prepared. We don’t
have enough medical personnel to help people in a major disaster. Even
when doctors try to help, there is no one in charge to facilitate the
process. We need to roll up our sleeves and do what needs to be done.

Brunilda Nazario, MD, is a medical editor for WebMD. Her opinions and
conclusions are her own.

Shylirin - 09 Sep 2005 07:13 GMT
> First Person: Disastrous Disaster Relief
>
[quoted text clipped - 223 lines]
> Brunilda Nazario, MD, is a medical editor for WebMD. Her opinions and
> conclusions are her own.

This definitely shows the need for volunteers of all interests and
professions.  In a disaster of this size (about 65 square miles, if I
remember correctly), any local response (even if well prepared and
practiced) is overwhelmed immediately.  Untrained on-the-spot volunteers are
a welcomed extra set of hands, but being trained "on the job" carries it's
own set of issues for the trained response workers to deal with in addition
to the needs of victims. Often, we only see an interest in volunteering
*after* a disaster happens and people want to help.  I strongly encourage
people who want to become involved to find an organization, get appropriate
training, and help your community help itself.  My own chapter has spent
years trying to get nursing, physician, and psychiatry/psychology support
from the local community, but it has been an uphill battle.  Medical
professionals are very busy and they indiated they just don't have the time
to get involved if there isn't a disaster.  The Red Cross is always looking
for volunteers, and there is plenty of need for care for smaller situations
such as tornadoes, single family and larger fires, etc. If you don't care
for the Red Cross, try FEMA, CERT (Citizen Emergency Response Team), any one
of the various religious response groups, or another organization of your
choosing.  Take responsibility for your own community and get yourself and
your neighbors educated.

Shylirin
CWatters - 09 Sep 2005 08:20 GMT
> Ask a WWII vet what they think of that lousy organization. As my
> grandfather said, "they charged me even for a lousy cup of coffee".
>
> This organization keeps duping people and people keep giving despite
> their poor record keeping & poor managment. There is a long history.

Don't like them? Well start your own charity then.
 
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