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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / September 2005DOD has Established a Chiropractic Benefit for Active Duty Personnel.
Defense Health Care: DOD has Established a Chiropractic Benefit for Active Duty Personnel. GAO-05-890R. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05890r.pdf Yes, there is a chiropractic clinic in the Walter Reed Medical Center. Doesn't it just give you the warmest feeling that our beloved military sons and daughters are putting their bodies in harms way by having those imaginary subluxations cracked? > Defense Health Care: DOD has Established a Chiropractic Benefit for > Active Duty Personnel. GAO-05-890R. > http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05890r.pdf >Defense Health Care: DOD has Established a Chiropractic Benefit for >Active Duty Personnel. GAO-05-890R. >http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05890r.pdf That should help with the bed-wetting and otitis media.  SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com I don't understand. Why is it bad for US troops to have the option of getting Chiropractic? If they don't want it or it doesn't work for them, they still have their pre-existing benefits, don't they? Personally, I doubt soldiers would seek out a Chiropractor for an ear infection. Note, that the US armed forces reject all bedwetters, so your sarcasm is off-base. >I don't understand. Why is it bad for US troops to have the option of >getting Chiropractic? If they don't want it or it doesn't work for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Note, that the US armed forces reject all bedwetters, so your sarcasm >is off-base. The reason I said it is because I have here a magazine for parents which has advertisements for chiroquactors who specialise in "curing" bed wetting and otitis media. They can't, of course. Why should money which could be spent usefully on providing medical care to military personnel be wasted on quackery? SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com >>I don't understand. Why is it bad for US troops to have the option of >>getting Chiropractic? If they don't want it or it doesn't work for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Why should money which could be spent usefully on providing medical > care to military personnel be wasted on quackery? Chiropractic is not quackery. >>>I don't understand. Why is it bad for US troops to have the option of >>>getting Chiropractic? If they don't want it or it doesn't work for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Chiropractic is not quackery. It is when they claim to treat conditions other than common aches and pains, and often then. The paradigm on which the practice is based, that the health of the body is dependent on the health of the spine, and that disorders of the viscera can be treated by manipulating the spine is faulty. Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ His opinion <snip> >>>>I don't understand. Why is it bad for US troops to have the option of >>>>getting Chiropractic? If they don't want it or it doesn't work for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> Chiropractic is not quackery It matters not what the subject is, Richard H Jacobson sees my name and starts foaming at the mouth. His pattern of cyberstalking and badgering started long before me, I just happened to be his current target, all others he has run off, boo hoo, he has failed to do that with me. See his pattern here: http://tinyurl.com/39u2g http://tinyurl.com/2vxcl http://tinyurl.com/2nbzc http://tinyurl.com/3gzhf Cue for Richard H Jacobson/akaRich..@.. to post with his usual cyberstalking and attacking me. Just watch. Just like clockwork. Sorry to belabor the obvious. Somethings are so predictable -------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- Best defense to logic is ignorance > His opinion <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >>> >>> Chiropractic is not quackery I note that you snipped my opinion without comment. Do YOU believe that chiropractors are qualified to treat otitis media and bed wetting? Are they qualified to treat ulcers, congestive heart failure, and breast cancer? Is otitis media related in any way to the spine? Do children suffer the sort of disease that chiropractors can effectively treat? Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ > > His opinion <snip> > >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > otitis media related in any way to the spine? Do children suffer the sort of > disease that chiropractors can effectively treat? Gosh Rich, you are an optimist. You're not actually expecting La Lollipop to discuss the subject are you? Cathy > -- > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > http://www.skeptic.com/ > http://www.csicop.org/ >> > His opinion <snip> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Cathy Of course not. She'll snip it. But every time she snips a comment that makes her uncomfortable, she loses another argument and looks the fool again. That's fun for me. --Rich >> > His opinion <snip> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >Gosh Rich, you are an optimist. You're not actually expecting La >Lollipop to discuss the subject are you? And am I the only one to notice that she has now apparently decided that Rich Shewmaker is Aloha Rich? They both come from Hawaii so they must be the same person. >Cathy > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> http://www.skeptic.com/ >> http://www.csicop.org/ SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com >>> > His opinion <snip> >>> >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > that Rich Shewmaker is Aloha Rich? They both come from Hawaii so they > must be the same person. We are, of course, different people, but we two are the ONLY Rich's in Hawaii. There was another, but he moved to Atlanta. ;o) Rich Ok now I am confused, is Rich @ and Rich both from Hawaii? How do you all keep track? :-) UM MOM Susan > And am I the only one to notice that she has now apparently decided > that Rich Shewmaker is Aloha Rich? They both come from Hawaii so they > must be the same person. >>> --Rich >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>> http://www.skeptic.com/ >>> http://www.csicop.org/ And am I the only one to notice that she has now apparently decided that Rich Shewmaker is Aloha Rich? They both come from Hawaii so they must be the same person. No, I noticed it, too. At first, I thought they were the same person because of Jan's replies. Why does she think that everyone she disagrees with is the same person? Is she really that sick or is this just her way of insulting people who disagree with her? >And am I the only one to notice that she has now apparently decided >that Rich Shewmaker is Aloha Rich? They both come from Hawaii so they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Why does she think that everyone she disagrees with is the same person? Because it is comforting to Jan that she is being criticized by one person rather than several. This is also why she talks about a "gang" attacking her. You see if you are dealing with a single entity of a gang then you don't have to admit that dozens of people think that you are a loon. Jan cannot accept that there are many diverse people who are critical of her. So she fuses them into one person or one entity. >Is she really that sick or is this just her way of insulting people who >disagree with her? Her posting behavior reveal how sick she is. Cue Jan to use that line inserting my name into it. Just watch. Aloha, Rich ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- Best defense to logic is ignorance > >> Why should money which could be spent usefully on providing medical > >> care to military personnel be wasted on quackery? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of the body is dependent on the health of the spine, and that disorders of > the viscera can be treated by manipulating the spine is faulty. Why could a bad spine not have adverse effects on general health? And a smart and observant chiropractioner can go somewhat beyond the spine itself -- e.g. some problems can result from poor breathing habits. MDs are not usually trained to make this kind of observations, but for some reason good chiropractioners can, and they can even perform manipulations to fix such problems. The flip side is that if chiropractioner X accidentally fixed a problem P because of being a good observer, chances are some other chiroractioners are sooner or later going to pretend to fix the same problem P even if they are not equally good... That's just how it works. I don't know whether one can get past the human differences, in medical professions. An MD may order dozens of tests and still not have a clue and keep trying to solve imaginary diseases. Yet another MD will accurately diagnose the same problem and provide the solution after spending 15 minutes listening to the symptoms. (Guess which one people happily pay more money to?) >> >> Why should money which could be spent usefully on providing medical >> >> care to military personnel be wasted on quackery? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Why could a bad spine not have adverse effects on general health? How does a bad spine cause my ears to clog up? How does it affect anything controlled by the cranial nerves? >And a smart and observant chiropractioner can go somewhat >beyond the spine itself -- e.g. some problems can result from >poor breathing habits. People who stop breathing usually have bigger problems than ear infections. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me." -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth > >> >> Why should money which could be spent usefully on providing medical > >> >> care to military personnel be wasted on quackery? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > People who stop breathing usually have bigger problems than ear > infections. Your post has two comments, and two out of two are nonsensiscal non-sequiters. You used to have more intelligent responses. You haven't tried any thimerosal lately, by any chance, have you? >> >> >> Why should money which could be spent usefully on providing medical >> >> >> care to military personnel be wasted on quackery? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >Your post has two comments, and two out of two are >nonsensiscal non-sequiters. You really do need to work on that reading comprehension, buckaroo. My second comment wasn't serious, I agree, but on the other hand, you just dragged this "poor breathing habits" crapola in out of nowhere. My first comment, however, is perfectly reasonable. How do the spinal nerves cause my ears to clog up? For that matter, how do chiropractors propose to adjust nerves that don't run through the spine at all? Or metabolic processes that aren't mediated by the nervous system? -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me." -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth > My first comment, however, is perfectly reasonable. How do the spinal > nerves cause my ears to clog up? For that matter, how do > chiropractors propose to adjust nerves that don't run through the > spine at all? Or metabolic processes that aren't mediated by the > nervous system? I don't believe anybody is claiming chiropractic can fix any and all problems. But problems in the spine could reasonably result in symptoms elsewhere, because of problems in nerve impulse transmissions (in either direction.) For instance phantom pains, or partial atrophies of isolated muscles that aren't receiving impulses well, could result from spinal issues. Blood circulation is also dependent upon various nervous signals. Also the diaphragm. Problems in these, stemming from spinal problems, could reasonably result in overall health issues. >> My first comment, however, is perfectly reasonable. How do the spinal >> nerves cause my ears to clog up? For that matter, how do [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I don't believe anybody is claiming chiropractic can fix >any and all problems. You don't, eh? Then you haven't been reading some of their more extravagant claims. I'd be hard-pressed to think of a condition that chiropractors (some of them, not all of them) *don't* claim they can fix, aside from the obvious acute conditions like a broken leg or maybe appendicitis. >But problems in the spine could reasonably result in symptoms >elsewhere, because of problems in nerve impulse transmissions (in >either direction.) Sure they could. But chiropractic claims often go far beyond that. >For instance phantom pains, or partial atrophies of isolated muscles >that aren't receiving impulses well, could result from spinal issues. >Blood circulation is also dependent upon various nervous signals. >Also the diaphragm. Problems in these, stemming from spinal >problems, could reasonably result in overall health issues. Even if that's true, it's still yet ANOTHER giant step to show that spinal manipulation can do anything about these nerves, right? -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me." -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth >>My first comment, however, is perfectly reasonable. How do the spinal >>nerves cause my ears to clog up? For that matter, how do [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I don't believe anybody is claiming chiropractic can fix > any and all problems. Hmmm...what about the ChiroQuackers who claim that they can cure AD/HD with neck manipulation? > But problems in the spine could reasonably result in > symptoms elsewhere, because of problems in nerve [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > from spinal problems, could reasonably result > in overall health issues. > Blood circulation is > also dependent upon various nervous signals. > Also the diaphragm. Problems in these, stemming > from spinal problems, could reasonably result > in overall health issues. I'm interested in your theory that blood circulation is dependent on nervous signals. It's true that heartrate is altered by signals from the vagus nerve, but that nerve is one of the cranial nerves (number ten, if I recall correctly), meaning that it bypasses the spine entirely and is therefore completely out of the reach of the chiropractor. Besides, The heart can function with no input from the nervous system whatsoever, as do all transplanted hearts. Other nerve mediated circulatory changes, such as peripheral vasoconstriction to maintain blood pressure, are useful, but not entirely necessary to the successful circulation of blood. And those functions are not likely to be much affected by spinal manipulation, either. Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ > > Blood circulation is > > also dependent upon various nervous signals. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > entirely necessary to the successful circulation of blood. And those > functions are not likely to be much affected by spinal manipulation, either. Surely you don't believe the heart sucks back all the blood all by itself? How do you think the blood comes from, say, your lower calf muscles back to the heart to get some more oxygen? >> > Blood circulation is >> > also dependent upon various nervous signals. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > your lower calf muscles back to the heart > to get some more oxygen? Partly by the "sucking" by the heart, partly by the passive compression of the veins and lymphatic vessels by the peripheral muscles. Even without the muscle activity the blood gets back. Do you think that paraplegics' blood just flows down to their feet and stays there? It doesn't get back because of signals from the spinal cord. Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ > >> > Blood circulation is > >> > also dependent upon various nervous signals. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > just flows down to their feet and stays there? It doesn't get back because > of signals from the spinal cord. Ok, the muscle activity is not crucial. But in normal health, it is a part of blood circulation. >>>I don't understand. Why is it bad for US troops to have the option of >>>getting Chiropractic? If they don't want it or it doesn't work for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Chiropractic is not quackery. Prove it. SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com Peter I can't post anything that will say that chiropractors are or are not quackery but I can tell you that my boys both have tried it and hubby had a bad experience (he had ruptured disks not diagnosed at the time) but my son had a great experience with his dr. The one my son went to was referred to by a orthopedic dr that has taken care of my boys for over ten years and we trust him. He is one of the best in FL. So I guess before going to one, make sure that the dr knows what he is doing and get references, just like you would with any other dr. I had my first GI who didn't know what he was doing and by the time I got smart enough to get myself to a second opinion for my undiagnosed crohn's I was at 74 pounds for surgery. My starting weight was 126 so that was too long to wait, a year and a half. But that was when I though all dr's will equal in their specialties. I have learned now to ask questions, lots of them and to change if I am uncomfortable with one. UM MOM Susan >>>>I don't understand. Why is it bad for US troops to have the option of >>>>getting Chiropractic? If they don't want it or it doesn't work for [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Prove it. My son is a veteran and saw an orthopedic, one of the dr's he needed along with a surgeon for another problem, and got referred to a chiropractic dr and this helped him, but it was only temporary help. He was very happy with what this dr did for his back. His injury is two disks that are "wedged" causing a nerve to be pinched now so they are trying a nerve block with physical therapy. My husband has had two surgeries on his back and he will never see a chiropractor again because when he saw one for his first damage, the chiropractor did more trouble than anything else. My opinion is that sometimes it is a good option. The dr who refers though needs to make sure that there is no damage to the spine before referring to a chiropractor. Some chiropractors can be quite good, though the diagnosis needs to be done to assure there is no damage. This, in my opinion from what I have learned from my own family and another friend is most important. UM MOM Susan > The reason I said it is because I have here a magazine for parents > which has advertisements for chiroquactors who specialise in "curing" > bed wetting and otitis media. They can't, of course. > > Why should money which could be spent usefully on providing medical > care to military personnel be wasted on quackery? Peter, do you think that Chiropractic for back pain is necessarily quackery? Sure, there are many quacks in the Chiropractic field, but not all of them. Many are good with physical therapy as well as back, neck, and hip pain. In my area, an hour of physical therapy is over $100. An initial evaluation by an orthopedist is over $200. A chiropractic adjustment is between $25-$50. Why not let them have chiropractic for appropriate conditions? It seems like it would save money. >Peter, do you think that Chiropractic for back pain is necessarily >quackery? If that's all they did, I probably wouldn't have a problem. There are some chiropractors out there who are working to make chiropractic a limited medical speciality like dentistry, but they always come up against the problem of looking like they are becoming physiotherapists. As a true chiropractor doesn't believe in germs (because Daniel Palmer taught that everything is caused by the spine), they are leading lights in the anti-vaccination movement. >Sure, there are many quacks in the Chiropractic field, but not all of >them. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Why not let them have chiropractic for appropriate conditions? It seems >like it would save money. No problem. The relevant words are "appropriate conditions". When I go to a "Parents, Babies & Kids" Expo and I see chiropractors demonstrating neck twisting on very young children and handing out anti-vaccination literature I find myself groping to see where "appropriate" fits in. SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com >In my area, an hour of physical therapy is over $100. >An initial evaluation by an orthopedist is over $200. >A chiropractic adjustment is between $25-$50. >Why not let them have chiropractic for appropriate conditions? It seems >like it would save money. No problem. The relevant words are "appropriate conditions". When I go to a "Parents, Babies & Kids" Expo and I see chiropractors demonstrating neck twisting on very young children and handing out anti-vaccination literature I find myself groping to see where "appropriate" fits in. ----- Ok, I see where you are coming from. As a new father of twins (May 05) I wouldn't take my kids to a Chiropractor. Perhaps I would if they were adolescent aged, but only for "appropriate conditions". I didn't know that Chiropractors were prominant opponents of vaccination. I could see how the earliest ones might have thought like that, but vaccination has a long, proven record. Vaccination may be the most important medical discovery of all time, even more so than Acupuncture. ;) Why would anyone oppose vaccination? Is it ignorance or is it based on religious belief? >>In my area, an hour of physical therapy is over $100. >>An initial evaluation by an orthopedist is over $200. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >the most important medical discovery of all time, even more so than >Acupuncture. ;) At the 2000 national convention of the International Chiropractors Association's Pediatrics Council. Alan Yurko was declared a "Hero of Chiropractic" and a "Chiropractors Hero Fund" was set up to collect money for him. Yurko killed a 10-week-old child by beating him to death. His wife was brought to the convention by anti-vaccination activist Harold Buttram. I can't find the reference right now, but a couple of years ago chiropractors from almost every state in the US could receive continuing education credits for attending the national conference of the National Vaccine (dis)Information Center, an organisation which supports vaccination provided that it is not given to any person, of any age, at any time, to protect against any disease. >Why would anyone oppose vaccination? Is it ignorance or is it based on >religious belief? Some of the followers of the anti-vaccination gurus certainly fit into the "ignorance" category, but the leading liars show all the signs of religious zealotry. I don't mean convention religion, I mean beliefs based on divine wisdom and mythology in general. SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com > Defense Health Care: DOD has Established a Chiropractic Benefit for > Active Duty Personnel. GAO-05-890R. > http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05890r.pdf Q: How many chiropractors does it take to change a light bulb? A: Just one, but it will take twelve "adjustments". Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ |
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