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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / September 2005

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Meat and Dairy Increase The Risk of Heart Disease

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Roman Bystrianyk - 07 Sep 2005 01:54 GMT
http://www.healthsentinel.com/org_news.php?event=org_news_print_list_item&id=054

Roman Bystrianyk, "Meat and Dairy Increase The Risk of Heart Disease",
Health Sentinel, September 7, 2005,

Since the popularity of the Atkins Diet, South Beach Diet and other
high protein diets, many Americans are avoiding carbohydrates in favor
of meat and high fat dairy sources such as cheese. Little information
is available on the long-term effects of these diets on human health
although studies show a strong correlation between countries with high
animal protein intake and coronary heart disease [CHD], although
short-term ecologic studies show a favorable effect on blood fats and a
lower risk of ischemic (decreased blood flow to the heart) heart
disease.

A 20-year follow-up study of over 25,000 California Seventh-day
Adventists showed a positive association between meat consumption and
ischemic heart disease. A 14-year follow-up study in over 80,000 women
showed a significant increased risk of major CHD events. In that same
study, a subgroup of over 57,000 postmenopausal women showed that
processed meats, such as hog dogs, bacon, sausage, salami, and bologna,
was associated with a 44% increased risk of CHD.

Studies on that animal protein fed to rabbits increase plaque formation
in the arteries independent of dietary fat and cholesterol, whereas soy
protein fed to rabbits did not show such a relationship, and other
studies consistently show the positive effect soy protein has on blood
fats. More recently, studies have shown a positive association between
consumption of meat that has been fried, barbecued, or broiled with the
development of several cancers, where the connection is explained by
the creation of potent and bioavailable carcinogenic heterocyclic
amines.

A study in the February issue of the American Journal of Epidemiology
examined the long-term relationship of protein intake of over 29,000
postmenopausal women followed over 15 years. The authors found that
there was a 30% increased risk of CHD in the group that had the highest
animal protein intake compared to the group that had more vegetable
protein. The authors also found that, "A composite of red and
processed meat servings in place of carbohydrate food servings was
associated with a 44 percent increase risk of CHD mortality, and a
similar increased risk was observed with dairy servings."

The authors note that the increased risk of CHD may be because animal
protein contains large amounts of methionine. Methionine is an amino
acid that eventually increases homocysteine levels in the body.
Homocysteine has been shown in many studies to be a significant risk
factor in heart disease.

The authors conclude that, "our results, together with the lack of
benefit to sustained weight loss due to consumption of
high-animal-protein diet such as promoted by Atkins and tested in a
recent randomized trial, do not support any salutary gain of these
diets and suggest potential harm. Long-term adherence to popular
high-protein diets, without discrimination toward protein source, may
have potentially adverse health consequences."

SOURCE: American Journal of Epidemiology, February 2005
Tony Wesley - 07 Sep 2005 03:51 GMT
> http://www.healthsentinel.com/org_news.php?event=org_news_print_list_item&id=054
>
> Roman Bystrianyk, "Meat and Dairy Increase The Risk of Heart Disease",

I am shocked, shocked to learn this!  Meat and cheese increase the risk
of heart disease?  Who knew!?
listener - 07 Sep 2005 04:41 GMT
>> http://www.healthsentinel.com/org_news.php?event=org_news_print_list_i
>> tem&id=054
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I am shocked, shocked to learn this!  Meat and cheese increase the
> risk of heart disease?  Who knew!?

Moooo.

L.
montygram - 07 Sep 2005 06:27 GMT
Raw, unpasteurized cheese cannot cause heart disease.  There is no
mechanism for it (unless you eat it while it is going bad).  It is now
known that the cholesterol needs to be oxidized.  There is a test
called the rancimat, which shows how long it takes for a food to "go
bad."  Meat will go bad quickly, especially if it is ground or
processed.  On the other hand, I have had cheese shipped to me from
across the country and it was fresh for a couple of months.

The homocysteine claims are also related directly to oxidative stress,
for example:

Semin Vasc Med. 2005 May;5(2):163-71.

Mechanisms of the atherogenic effects of elevated homocysteine in
experimental models.

Wilson KM, Lentz SR.

Department of Internal Medicine, The University of Iowa, Iowa City,
Iowa 52242, USA.

Hyperhomocysteinemia is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease and
stroke. During the last decade, considerable progress in delineating
the mechanisms that underlie the atherogenic effects of
hyperhomocysteinemia has been achieved through the use of experimental
animal models. Among the most informative animal models are those that
use genetic and dietary approaches to produce hyperhomocysteinemia in
mice. Recent findings demonstrate that hyperhomocysteinemia can
accelerate the development of atherosclerosis in susceptible models
such as the apolipoprotein E-deficient mouse. Hyperhomocysteinemia also
is a potent inducer of endothelial dysfunction, particularly in small
vessels such as cerebral arterioles. Mechanisms of endothelial
dysfunction may include inhibition of endothelial nitric oxide synthase
by its endogenous inhibitor, asymmetric dimethylarginine, and oxidative
inactivation of nitric oxide mediated by upregulation of prooxidant
enzymes and downregulation of antioxidant enzymes. There also is good
evidence from animal models that hyperhomocysteinemia produces
endoplasmic reticulum stress, which may contribute to atherosclerosis
and endothelial dysfunction by activating signal transduction pathways
leading to inflammation, oxidative stress, and apoptosis.

But if you are not vitamin deficient, this should not be a problem in
any case.
Pramesh Rutajit - 07 Sep 2005 18:31 GMT
> Mechanisms of the atherogenic effects of elevated homocysteine in
> experimental models.

<snip abstract>

> But if you are not vitamin deficient, this should not be a problem in
> any case.

Not completely true.

B1 500 mg
B2 200 mg
B3 1500 mg (can raise homocysteine)
B5 500 mg
B6 400 mg
P5P 50 mg
B12 5000 mcg (MethyCobalamin)
Folic Acid 10 mg (10,000 mcg)
Choline 4 grams
TMG 8 Grams
Zinc 50 mg (2.5 coper)

Niacin 0-1000 mg didn't modify homocysteine which I lowered to 9.0 from 17.5
using the above supplements.

I also eat less than 50% of the red meat I used to eat but that has had no
effect on homocysteine.  I have gone from 2-3 gallons of milk a week to 0
and all sources of dairy have been decreased to almost 0.  I have no source
from raw milk and have tried some raw milk based cheese which is nasty if
you get the salt free stuff.

Niacin 2000 mg caused homocysteine to increase from 9.0 to 14.1, not good,
but it increased LDL particle size from type A/B (1000 mg/day of niacin) to
type B (large and boyant).  Below 1000 mg/day of niacin and my LDL particle
size is type B, small and dense and likely to work synergistically with
homocysteine to create arterial plaque.  Not good.

I lowered Niacin from 2000 to 1500 mg and hopefully I'll still have LDL
particle type A while lowering my homocysteine back towards 9.9.
I lowered B6 from 1000 mg to 400 mg since I didn't think the extra 600 mg
was adding to lowering homocysteine.
I lowered TMG from 8 grams to 6 grams since I don't think 8 grams lowers it
any more than 6 grams.
I lowewered B12 from 10,000 to 5000 because lab work showed saturation
I lowered Folic Acid from 16 mg to 10 mg because lab work showed saturation

I've added Creatine 5 grams a day to interrupt the SAMe to
creatinine+homocsyteine pathway to see if it will lower homocysteine.

My target is 6.0 or less.

hs-CRP is 0.2 so I'm good there.

In other words, just adding vitamines doesn't necessarily lower homocysteine
into to anywhere near optimum.  I got a drop from 17.5 (some vitamines) to
9.0 but that included the adition of many mythel donors.

Signature

Pramesh Rutajit - p2976221tongue@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply.

Jim Chinnis - 07 Sep 2005 21:20 GMT
Pramesh Rutajit <p2976221tongue@newsguy.com> wrote in part:

>In other words, just adding vitamines doesn't necessarily lower homocysteine
>into to anywhere near optimum.  I got a drop from 17.5 (some vitamines) to
>9.0 but that included the adition of many mythel donors.

But the evidence is that lowering homocysteine with vitamins (at least)
increases rather than decreses risk, at least of heart attacks etc.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Jim Chinnis - 07 Sep 2005 22:30 GMT
Pramesh Rutajit <p2976221tongue@newsguy.com> wrote in part:

>In other words, just adding vitamines doesn't necessarily lower homocysteine
>into to anywhere near optimum.  I got a drop from 17.5 (some vitamines) to
>9.0 but that included the adition of many mythel donors.

Hmmm....I just looked at my own history of Hcy readings and did a few
attempts at correlations with other variables. What leaps out is that my
homocysteine correlates with my weight at 0.89!
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
William Wagner - 07 Sep 2005 23:19 GMT
> Pramesh Rutajit <p2976221tongue@newsguy.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Is  that an adjusted R ^  ;)))   Skinny folks die early  too.  Lots of
variables !    .89  wow!   I'd say this a given for you and  heads up
for us all.  

Longevity = weight* parents demise * physical activity * last 20 books
read* Fiction * Nonfiction * Hours OF TV * ETC* infinity.

Seems good to be active.  Seems good to help others.  Seems good to give
stuff away.  Seems good to travel light.  Seems good to drive less.

Controversial ....
Seems good to minimize  health  interventions.

Controversial .... Seems good to let every one make their own mistakes
and find their own ways.

 Ideas  only.

Helping recurs alot ...

Bill

Signature

Garden Shade Zone 5 S Jersey USA in a Japanese Jungle Manner.39.6376 -75.0208
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

Susan - 07 Sep 2005 16:21 GMT
> A 20-year follow-up study of over 25,000 California Seventh-day
> Adventists showed a positive association between meat consumption and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> processed meats, such as hog dogs, bacon, sausage, salami, and bologna,
> was associated with a 44% increased risk of CHD.

What did those folks eat *with* those meats and dairy?

What variables aren't being considered here?

Susan
William Wagner - 07 Sep 2005 16:35 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Susan

Seems we look at isolated events  due to expense  or perhaps a
rejection of Holistic ideas.  Below a  URL dealing with grilling meats.

Stir fry tonight    Ribeye , green pepper,  string beans, tofu , corn
and mushrooms  on brown rice.

Quite a mix eh?  

Bill

http://www.cancerproject.org/media/news/fiveworstfoodsreport.php

Signature

Garden Shade Zone 5 S Jersey USA in a Japanese Jungle Manner.39.6376 -75.0208
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

Susan - 07 Sep 2005 16:51 GMT
>  Seems we look at isolated events  due to expense  or perhaps a
> rejection of Holistic ideas.  Below a  URL dealing with grilling meats.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Quite a mix eh?  

The cite made quite a few incorrect assumptions, though.  First, that
red meat is associated with more cancer.  The connection really only
holds for cured meats, IIRC.  And no connection for meats not eaten
with, say, rice, potatoes, etc.  Red meat is often indicted in studies
where it may only be a marker for generally poor dietary choices.

Then we have to problem of grains when exposed to high heat being a
source of carcinogenic acrylamides, into the mix.  :-/

I grill meat a lot, but not for very long times *and* very high heat, as
the citation claims is usually dont, and not with flames leaping up and
charring it when fat drips into the grill.

Further, I see no efforts made in such studies to distinguish between
unhealthy feedlot meats and grass/range fed food sources, with their
much healthier levels of lipids, arachidonic acid and CLA, eaten without
starch and sugars, chemical curing, etc.

Susan
Owen Lowe - 12 Sep 2005 06:37 GMT
> Further, I see no efforts made in such studies to distinguish between
> unhealthy feedlot meats and grass/range fed food sources, with their
> much healthier levels of lipids, arachidonic acid and CLA, eaten without
> starch and sugars, chemical curing, etc.

Or cuts of meat (I'll assume we're talking beef):

What effect does consuming equal quantities of ground beef with 10% fat
compare with 20% fat?

How about a prime rib vs. an eye of round roast? (eye of round is one of
the very leanest cuts).

As to the dairy:

Were the subjects drinking skim, 1%, 2% or whole milk?

Signature

__________

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some
great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach
their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

Susan - 12 Sep 2005 18:02 GMT
> Or cuts of meat (I'll assume we're talking beef):
>
> What effect does consuming equal quantities of ground beef with 10% fat
> compare with 20% fat?

The higher fat may be healthier, depending upon what else one is eating
with it.  It may keep blood glucose lower or more level, and satiate for
more hours, eating to less frequent hunger.

> How about a prime rib vs. an eye of round roast? (eye of round is one of
> the very leanest cuts).

That's probably why chewing on a piece of eye round is about as
rewarding as chewing on a piece of the package it comes in.  :-)  Flank
or sirloin are tastier choices, thinks moi.

> As to the dairy:
>
> Were the subjects drinking skim, 1%, 2% or whole milk?

It may not matter at all, except for calories, depending on what you're
having with the milk or the fatty cuts of meat.  I think skim and 1% are
disgusting.

FTR, though, sirloin, frinstance, has more mono and sat fat that
saturated, for those keeping score.

Susan
Owen Lowe - 12 Sep 2005 06:36 GMT
> Studies on that animal protein fed to rabbits increase plaque formation
> in the arteries independent of dietary fat and cholesterol, whereas soy
> protein fed to rabbits did not show such a relationship, and other
> studies consistently show the positive effect soy protein has on blood
> fats.

Is it weird that they'd choose an herbivore to test animal protein
intake on lipid levels?

Soy protein has had a positive affect on my blood tests, so I'm not
disputing that it works - but what if rabbits don't have the
mechanism(s) to process animal protein and that is skewing the results?

Signature

__________

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some
great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach
their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

 
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