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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / September 2005

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90 percent of research for 10 percent of disease

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fresh~horses@despammed.com - 05 Sep 2005 01:02 GMT
The Constant Gardener': What the Movie Missed

"...drug companies {to} shift the burden of experimentation away from
Western consumers and onto the world's poor--with all the moral
quandaries, ethical lapses and egregious violations that inevitably
follow."

"...90 percent of the global medical research budget takes aim at
illnesses that cause just 10 percent of the world's disease burden."

by SONIA SHAH

A lush, atmospheric drama, The Constant Gardener brings unprecedented
exposure to crucial issues facing the Western pharmaceutical industry
and all those who partake of it. Set mostly in a sun-dappled Kenya and
based on a John le Carré thriller, the film is a fierce but flawed
indictment of Big Pharma's complicity in African illness and poverty.

The film revolves around the transformation of mild-mannered career
diplomat Justin Quayle, played by Ralph Fiennes. Quayle's wife, Tessa,
played by Rachel Weisz, has exposed a botched experimental trial
conducted by a Western drug company upon unsuspecting African
villagers. After she is found mysteriously murdered, Justin is infected
with his firebrand wife's righteous indignation.

The plot couldn't be more timely. According to a May 16 report in USA
Today, giant drug outfits are outsourcing increasing numbers of drug
trials outside the United States and Europe. Merck is now conducting 50
percent of its trials outside the United States. By 2006, 70 percent of
Wyeth Pharmaceuticals trials are expected to occur offshore. Across
Latin America, Eastern Europe, Asia and Africa, the sick are abundant,
desperate and doc-trusting, and so recruitment into clinical trials is
rapid. As one executive from an outfit specializing in running drug
trials in Asia put it, patients in developing countries are "more
willing to be guinea pigs."

As the film makes all too clear, Big Pharma's new experimental bodies
in the developing world only rarely enjoy the benefits of the research
they participate in. Sometimes the new drugs are unlicensed in their
countries or priced out of reach, but more often the drugs are
irrelevant to the medical needs of their communities. After all, 90
percent of the global medical research budget takes aim at illnesses
that cause just 10 percent of the world's disease burden. And so, while
500 million cases of malaria rage across the developing world, the
working poor of India, South Africa and elsewhere, desperate for the
kind of high-tech care available to them almost solely through clinical
research, line up for experimental doses of the latest arthritis, heart
disease and obesity drugs.

Not surprisingly, ethical lapses are strikingly common. In one inquiry,
out of thirty-three subjects enrolled in an experiment trial in
Thailand, all of whom had signed forms stating their informed consent,
thirty were found to be dangerously misinformed. The experimental HIV
vaccine they were about to receive had no known protective value, but,
according to the subjects, it would, in fact, protect them from the
deadly virus. "Informed consent is a joke," said one industry
researcher in an anonymous survey sponsored by the National Bioethics
Advisory Commission.

But challenging these practices is not nearly as black-and-white as
this film would have it. Tessa Quayle, the martyred activist, stands up
to yell "bullshit" at public lectures, shaking her lovely dark mane
while she's at it. At cocktail parties, she loudly embarrasses the
health minister, who marches off in a huff. Good stuff, but the reality
is that uncompromising activists--even if they look like Rachel
Weisz--rarely enjoy this kind of privileged access to power so
effortlessly. Tessa has it too good and too bad, too. She ends up
paying with her life for her exposure of the botched trial; in real
life, bad drugs and unethical research practices often continue
unhindered despite mountains of data and reports detailing their
defects.

As I found while researching a book on the topic, experimental
protocols that would be condemned as unethical in the West--including
placebo trials among ailing AIDS patients--are frequently described in
the medical press; when the subjects are poor Africans or Asians, nary
an eye is batted. (Recall that papers describing this country's most
egregious scientific study, the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, in which
government doctors denied treatment to black syphilitics, regularly
appeared in the medical press from the 1930s onward. That study wasn't
terminated until 1972.)

In the film, the trial's results are so dangerous that they must be
suppressed by an international conspiracy of corporate execs and state
authorities. If only. The trouble is that most of the time new drugs
aren't uniformly deadly, rendering unequivocal data showcasing their
killer properties. Rather, new drugs do work, just not very well, or
not for everyone, or not without side effects or, most frequently, not
any better than older, safer drugs. What that means is that challenging
unethical trials requires more than wrenching a few critical reports
from official dustbins.

Most disappointing, perhaps, is that the film tells us precious little
about the explosive trial at its center, despite the fact that the
entire plot hinges on its wickedness. Some of the African subjects died
in the trial, the film tells us, but little else is revealed. There's a
reason for this strange omission. Most Western audiences will easily
jump to the conclusion that any experiment that rendered any deaths is
irredeemable, no matter the condition of the patients, the purpose of
the trial or the rates of deaths from traditional therapies or no
therapy. And yet the business of testing experimental drugs in humans
is a risky one, no matter what the condition or drug. Humane research
practices may minimize the risks, which must be balanced against
potential benefits, but the risks remain, regardless. As one HIV
researcher put it, "I mean, sh.t, we learn by climbing over the bodies
of humans."

That the film makes no allowance for this reality is more than a
problem of accuracy. Our reluctance to acknowledge the risks of drug
development is the single biggest reason why drug companies have fled
the empty test clinics of the United States and Western Europe to set
up shop in Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe and Latin America in the first
place. On average, every American buys more than ten prescription drugs
every year, and yet most are loath to participate in the clinical
trials that make new drugs possible. Less than one in twenty Americans
take part in experimental trials, with half the American public
maligning test subjects as "guinea pigs," according to a June 2004
Harris poll.

The logical outcome of this "all gain, no pain" attitude toward modern
drugs is for drug companies to shift the burden of experimentation away
from Western consumers and onto the world's poor--with all the moral
quandaries, ethical lapses and egregious violations that inevitably
follow. To paraphrase the rousing finale of The Constant Gardener, we
enjoy the benefits of civilization so affordably because their lives
are bought so cheaply. To end the cycle, we must own up to the risks of
developing new drugs, and decide together how much we are willing to
take on and who shall pay the price.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/2 0050912/shah
http://www.thenation.com/docpr int.mhtml?i=20050912&s=shah

fairuse
fresh~horses@despammed.com - 05 Sep 2005 01:33 GMT
> The Constant Gardener': What the Movie Missed
>
[quoted text clipped - 129 lines]
>
> fairuse

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posts to another listserve circa 2000, on the Olivieri case:

"Dr. Nancy Olivieri was one of the first whistle blowers [as noted
below] relating to industry funded research in Canada.

"Olivieri was exceptional in blowing the whistle on her own drug and
on the drug company that was funding her deferiprone research...
(a television news program} states that Dr. Olivieri
claims to have proven that the thalassemia drug [deferiprone, L1] is
harmful.

Those who read Dr. Olivieri's publications will know that
this is a serious misrepresentation of her view...

Those familiar with the scientific background of the battle between
Olivieri and Apotex will know that it raises profound questions of
physician ethics and research integrity. .......

When Olivieri's colleagues across Canada observe what has happened to
her and to her supporters at Sick Kids Hospital - repeated legal
threats from Apotex, attempted dismissals from the Hospital, demotions,
harassment, and gag orders from senior hospital officials, aggravated
by a steady stream of hate mail - not many will be encouraged to
express legitimate doubts about the safety of new drugs, in a country
where deregulation permits their incautious licensing."

Science Wars: Olivieri under media fire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
by Professor Schafer, Director of the Centre for Professional and
Applied
Ethics at the University of Manitoba. scha...@cc.umanitoba.ca

Dr. Nancy Olivieri was recently featured in a documentary, produced by
CBC-TV's Undercurrents, apparently intended to undermine the public
perception of her as an heroic underdog. The major theme of this
programme
was that Dr. Olivieri is a media-savvy "Goliath", well able to look
after
herself in the fierce battle with the combined forces of a powerful
drug
company Apotex and the top administration of The Hospital for Sick
Children.

One week later, the CBC followed this effort with a full-edition
documentary on the National News Magazine, artfully edited by Hana
Gartner
and colleagues to imply that Olivieri is not only an incompetent
scientist
but carries responsibility for the suffering and death of thousands of
patients worldwide. That's a pretty impressive charge sheet, one that
appears to be metastasizing faster than a cancer cell.

A serious issue of medical ethics is now glossed with an issue of
journalistic ethics. I'll leave to others the task of figuring out the
CBC's motives for joining forces with Apotex in their campaign to
discredit Olivieri's scientific integrity. Those familiar with the
scientific background of the battle between Olivieri and Apotex will
know
that it raises profound questions of physician ethics and research
integrity.  The danger now is that the grave factual errors and
innuendo
of the CBC's documentary will obscure, for millions of viewers, the
important underlying moral issues. The CBC's well-earned reputation for
high journalistic standards enhances the danger.

Throughout the documentary, Ms. Gartner states that Dr. Olivieri claims
to
have proven that the thalassemia drug [deferiprone, L1] is harmful.
Those
who read Dr. Olivieri's publications will know that this is a serious
misrepresentation of her view. What she has stated, repeatedly, is that
her preliminary data point in the direction of serious harm arising
from
use of the drug and that, therefore, patients have a right to be
informed
of this risk. Because Apotex cancelled the crucial experiment, it is
now
impossible to say conclusively that deferiprone will cause liver and
heart
damage to patients who use it.

Although Ms. Gartner interviewed the world's most distinguished
thalassemia researcher, Sir David Weatherall of Oxford, who supports
both
Olivieri's science and her ethics, the clip used from his interview was
so
brief that, if you sneezed you would have missed it. By contrast,
Gartner
lavishes air-time on another physician, Dr. Beatrice Wonke, who claims
that because of Olivieri''s campaign against deferiprone, thousands of
patients worldwide are suffering and dying. Those children would be
saved
from pain and death, it was implied, if only nasty Olivieri had stifled
her doubtful scientific opinions and Apotex were permitted to sell its
pills to patients all over the world.

The CBC documentary relies heavily on the opinions of Wonke who,
Gartner
assures Canadians, is an "independent" researcher: "We went to see Dr.
Wonke because she answers to no pharmaceutical company. Her research is
independently funded." Independent? Wonke? The New England Journal of
Medicine requires that scientists declare their conflicts-of-interest,
so
that readers are assisted in recognizing possible bias induced by
divided
loyalties. In their issue of December 3, 1998 Wonke acknowledged
financial
support of her research from Apotex, which funds a member of her
research
staff.

Later in the programme the CBC quotes another doctor critical of
Olivieri's science, Geoffrey Dougherty and, again, fails to inform
viewers
of his financial ties to Apotex.

Research conflicts of interest are a huge ethical issue for modern
medical
science. Evidence is accumulating that industry-sponsored research is
far
more likely to report favourably on new drugs than industry-independent
research. The dangers for patients arising from corporate-induced bias
cannot be overstated. Olivieri was exceptional in blowing the whistle
on
her own drug and on the drug company that was funding her deferiprone
research. By falsely denying (in the case of Wonke) or misleadingly
concealing (in the case of Dougherty) their financial ties to Apotex,
the
CBC does a profound disservice to its viewers.

The CBC documentary also failed to inform its viewers that every
published
study using the direct measurements of investigation (liver biopsies to
measure iron concentration) has confirmed Olivieri's concerns. Even Dr.
Wonke has admitted in print (though not in the broadcast interview)
that
her data are consistent with Olivieri's fear that deferiprone may cause
liver iron build-up to dangerous levels. The key scientific point here
is
that no study other than Olivieri's has examined serial liver biopsies
over a sufficient duration to assure patients of the absence of liver
damage. The research that could have settled this crucially important
question was terminated by Apotex before it could provide a conclusive
answer.

Is this "don't look, don't find" approach good enough when human lives
are
at stake?  These are important scientific issues, but the worst sin
committed by the CBC's documentary is that it obfuscates the
fundamental
moral issues.  It is of transcendent importance that doctors, to whom
very
sick patients entrust their lives, should live by the basic rule of
physician ethics: first, do no harm. Related to this principle is
another,
the precautionary principle, which states that where doubt exists, and
where human lives and health may be at stake, those in authority ought
not
to proceed without a reasonable assurance that it is safe to do so.

Alas, in the current climate of government deregulation, the rules
governing drug safety have changed. It is no longer necessary in Canada
or
in the European Community to demonstrate that a drug is effective in
order
to get it to market. Recent policy changes allow drug companies to sell
first and do research later.

Gartner's documentary sneers at Olivieri's efforts to block licensing
of
deferiprone in Europe, and portrays her as pursuing an irrational
obsession. But, given the fact that Olivieri's preliminary data point
to
the drug being dangerously ineffective in 50% of patients, does she
have
any moral choice but to oppose licensing of this drug until research is
done which proves it safe and effective? Keep in mind that the standard
therapy for thalassemia works well for the vast majority of patients,
albeit at the cost of regular painful needle injections and hours
attached
to an over-night portable pump.

If media journalists had some historical memory, then patients and the
public could be reminded of some important hard-learned lessons. A
controversy similar to that surrounding deferiprone emerged in the
early
1990s, with the famous CAST trials. These involved several
widely-marketed
drugs intended to stop fatal heart rhythm disturbances.. The fact that
these drugs indeed increased the rate of death four-fold was not
detected
in short-term trials, or in everyday use by doctors: the deaths that
resulted were wrongly assumed to occur from heart disease alone. It was
only a long-term study that eventually proved these particular drugs to
be toxic.

Olivieri and her many supportive colleagues have merely been asking
that a
similar large trial - to replace the ones stopped prematurely by Apotex
-
be conducted before the drug is sold for profit. Apotex wants it sold
now.
It shouldn't be this difficult to protect patients.

When Olivieri's colleagues across Canada observe what has happened to
her
and to her supporters at Sick Kids Hospital - repeated legal threats
from
Apotex, attempted dismissals from the Hospital, demotions, harassment,
and
gag orders from senior hospital officials, aggravated by a steady
stream
of hate mail - not many will be encouraged to express legitimate doubts
about the safety of new drugs, in a country where deregulation permits
their incautious licensing. Shouldn't this concern all Canadians?

It should! The precautionary principle exists to protect all of us.
Where
there is doubt and uncertainty, ethics dictates that we err on the side
of
caution.
=========================================================================We sent the following letter, with copy to U of T administration ... to

Dr. Nancy Olivieri, Department of
Medicine, University of Toronto

Dear Dr. Olivieri:
We of Science for Peace are jolted out of our too-long silence by
Arthur
Shafer's article copied below) in the Toronto Star of April 10th. It
seemed for a time that the stream of misrepresentation had been
stemmed,
and reparations were under way.  Why the CBC - or some improperly
supervised subcluster thereof - has renewed the smear attack on you,
one
cannot know.  But the CBC's "reputation for high journalistic
standards"
has been dealt a severe blow by its own folly.

Science for Peace has the ethical practice of science at its core, and
we have watched you with admiration as your saga unfolded.  We wish you
enduring strength in upholding the standards that must continue to
guide
us all."

       Sincerely,

       Phyllis Creighton and Eric Fawcett
       Co-Chairs, Science and Ethics Working Group

       and Prof Terrell Gardner, Board Member

-------------------------------------------------------
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 05 Sep 2005 02:15 GMT
> Science Wars: Olivieri under media fire
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[quoted text clipped - 225 lines]
>
> -------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

Why are you posting this outdated stuff?  Upheaval and witchhuntery,
but where is the science?  What has happened since?

You post >5 year-old letters from people urging deferiprone not be
released until further safety studies have been done. Well, it's now
2005. Hello? By now, such studies have been done and deferiprone is
licensed in 43 countries. Though still not in Canada or the US. Here in
North America, we are approaching drug bigotry against the stuff.

In any case, the drug never was for the impoverished, hungery and poor.
It is for a side effect of too many transfusions, a problem which only
people with good access to good medical care in the first place, will
ever get.  Get with the idea, Zee. Deferiprone is not a drug for
idealists to champion either for or against.

Dr. Olivieri might have been right to take the stand she did with the
info she had, with what she knew at the time, in 1998. Good for her.
But it's a quite separate question of whether or not she has turned out
to have been actually objectively right. Deferiprone is being used. Its
dangers are known. It has passed through the classical phases of
Panacea, to Pandora Plague, and is now well on the way to being another
Perfectly Pedestrian Pharmaceutical. LEARN something from this.  I've
only tried to teach you this lesson half a dozen times, now. Somehow
you cannot comprehend the idea, no matter how many times it's
demonstrated.

Best Pract Res Clin Haematol. 2005 Jun;18(2):299-317.
Deferiprone therapy for transfusional iron overload.

Victor Hoffbrand A.

Department of Haematology, Royal Free Hospital, Pond Street, London NW3
5QG, UK. v.hoffbrand@rfc.ucl.ac.uk

Iron chelation is needed to prevent damage to the heart, liver and
endocrine glands from iron overload in patients with refractory
anaemias who receive regular blood transfusions. Desferrioxamine is
still the first-line drug, but
because of its expense in many countries, and lack of compliance
because of difficulty with administration, there is a major need for an
orally active (and cheaper) chelating drug. Seventeen years after the
first clinical trials
deferiprone, which is orally active, has emerged as suitable for
patients for whom desferrioxamine is, for one reason or another,
inadequate. Many patients are successfully chelated at a dose of
deferiprone 75 mg/kg/day. Some patients may need higher doses (up to
100 mg/kg), or combination therapy of deferiprone every day and
desferrioxamine on several days each week. Recent data suggest that
deferiprone may be superior to desferrioxamine at protecting the heart
from iron overload. The side-effects of deferiprone--agranulocytosis,
neutropenia,
gastrointestinal symptoms, arthropathy, transient changes in liver
enzymes, and zinc deficiency--are now well recognized; they result in
discontinuation of the drug in only 5-10% of patients. Deferiprone is
now licensed in 43 countries for thalassaemia major patients for whom
desferrioxamine is inadequate. If results of current trials confirm its
superiority at reducing cardiac damage, it may well become the
first-line drug for many patients.

Publication Types:
   Review
   Review, Tutorial

PMID: 15737892 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

====================================================

Acta Haematol. 2004;112(4):179-83.

Five-year trial of deferiprone chelation therapy in thalassaemia major
patients.

Taher A, Aoun E, Sharara AI, Mourad F, Gharzuddine W, Koussa S, Inati
A, Dhillon AP, Hoffbrand AV.

Department of Internal Medicine, American University of Beirut, Medical
Center, Beirut, Lebanon.

Twelve thalassaemia major patients have been given deferiprone 75 mg/kg
body weight daily as iron chelation therapy for 5 years. Their ages
ranged from 18 to 34 years (mean 24.2) at the end of the study. Two
patients were hepatitis C virus (HCV) mRNA positive and a further 5
were positive for HCV antibody. The mean serum ferritin level fell
significantly from 4,302 +/- 2,245 microg/l SD at baseline to 3,032 +/-
1,155 microg/l at 2 years (p = 0.037) and 2,229 +/- 1,070 microg/l (p =
0.007) at 5 years. At the end of the study, liver iron ranged from 3.59
to 23.7 mg/g dry weight (mean 11.9 +/- 5.4), 3 patients having levels
>15 mg/g. There was no significant change in serum AST levels, but ALT levels fell significantly at 2 years (p = 0.019) and 5 years (p = 0.001). Liver biopsy at
the end of the study showed no evidence of hepatic fibrosis caused by
deferiprone. Cardiac studies showed no overall change in left
ventricular ejection fraction but a significant improvement in
isovolumic relaxation time (p
= 0.045). We conclude that in this albeit small group of thalassaemia
major patients, deferiprone was a safe long-term method of iron
chelation. In a minority, higher doses of deferiprone or a combination
with desferrioxamine
would be needed to lower liver iron below 15 mg/g.

2004 S. Karger AG, Basel.

Publication Types:
   Clinical Trial

PMID: 15564727 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 05 Sep 2005 02:40 GMT
> COMMENT:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> released until further safety studies have been done. Well, it's now
> 2005.

Cordarone® (amiodarone HCl) is intended for use only in patients with
the indicated life-threatening arrhythmias because its use is
accompanied by substantial toxicity.

Hello? By now, such studies have been done and deferiprone is
> licensed in 43 countries. Though still not in Canada or the US. Here in
> North America, we are approaching drug bigotry against the stuff.

I'm posting it because it's important background, and perhaps the
people who read what you wrote might want to read another point of
view. Which I of course, cannot write. {I don't pretend to be anything
I'm not...}.

> In any case, the drug never was for the impoverished, hungery and poor.

I never said it was, but you have misquoted me as such. I have no
problem with you disagreeing with what I have said, but when you start
making things up you discredit yourself, not me.

> It is for a side effect of too many transfusions, a problem which only
> people with good access to good medical care in the first place, will
> ever get.  Get with the idea, Zee. Deferiprone is not a drug for
> idealists to champion either for or against.

I am not doing that. That's *your* {mis)take, once again, on what I am
doing. I am championing science.

> Dr. Olivieri might have been right to take the stand she did with the
> info she had, with what she knew at the time, in 1998. Good for her.

I agree. Thanks I'll pass this along to her.

> But it's a quite separate question of whether or not she has turned out
> to have been actually objectively right. Deferiprone is being used. Its
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> you cannot comprehend the idea, no matter how many times it's
> demonstrated.

It's very difficult to learn when what I am trying to say is being
ridiculed and distorted. In spite of that, I do. I hear you very
clearly.

The whole point of my posting this, from the first post, was to
encourage discussion of science and ethics: how an ethical scientist
was treated by her university and medical school (which was, de facto,
owned by the pharmaceutical company that produced the drug).

It seems to be something that is of concern to the scientists and
physicians I know. They don't assume that because this is being
discussed and posted, it is saying *they* are dishonest.

I don't assume you are.

I'm not going away, *and* I'll still learn from you. In spite of you...
In fact, you know how literature works? I'm the only dynamic character
you've got in your usenet story. I'm learning. The rest are all yes
massa. I'm not Gohde, and I'm not slobbering on your hand.

Thanks. I'll have a look at this later. I appreciate it. It will help
my understanding.

Right now, I'm reading Dr. Olivieri's Globe and Mail review of the
movie.

Zee

> Best Pract Res Clin Haematol. 2005 Jun;18(2):299-317.
> Deferiprone therapy for transfusional iron overload.
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> PMID: 15564727 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 05 Sep 2005 04:43 GMT
[Harris COMMENT]:
> > In any case, the drug never was for the impoverished, hungery and poor.
>
> I never said it was, but you have misquoted me as such. I have no
> problem with you disagreeing with what I have said, but when you start
> making things up you discredit yourself, not me.

COMMENT:
First of all, I wasn't quoting you (do you see any quotation marks?),
but stating what I believed to be your position. I wasn't "quoting you"
so I can't "misquote you".

Second, you've erased your own messages, and that makes restatment of
your positions a lot more likely, since I don't have anything to
reference. Making things up? How so? I managed to recover the exact
exchange from somebody else's message:

Harris:
>> As for Olivieri putting loyalty to patients first, did she do them any
>> good thereby?  She's probabaly single handedly responsible for keeping
>> deferiprone off the market in Canada and the US. Okay. But most of the
>> people who need it are in Europe and Africa. Where it has been
>> approved, and is in use. The "disadvantaged" in Canada can't have it.
Zee:
>This is my opinion: The drug is harmful. Like statins. Like Vioxx. And
>pharma has found ways and means to slip through. It's wrong. They've
>gone where poverty and hun[g]er move people to do things that may hurt
>them. No doubt some similar drug is needed. Some "better" similar drug.
>Olivieri can't stop them from what they've done now, although I think
>she tried.

COMMENT:

Okay, let's look at it. You previously had said Olivieri was developing
drugs for the "disadvantaged." (that IS a quote: you used the term
first in describing her work with this drug; you've since erased that
one also). Your words above state that Olivieri can't stop pharma from
what they're doing now, which is to go where "poverty and hunger move
people to do things that may hurt them." With this "harmful" drug.

Now, how is your statement above to be understood except 1) that you
think Olivieri developed the drug for the disadvantaged and 2) that
pharma has gone where poverty and hunger make people use it, even after
Olivieri found it's harmful and bad for them?  Do I have your position
wrong, still? Then what other reasonable position can a reader draw
from the paragraph above, eh?

Soo.... tell me then just why am I wrong to point out that the drug
NEVER WAS intended for the disadvantaged, and it's extremely unlikely
ever to be used anyplace "where poverty and hunger move people to use
it?"  And isn't being used in those places now? You did say that, and
mean that, did you not?

What drug WERE you talking about, when you said "the drug is harmful"?
In fact, what the devil WERE you talking about in that entire last
paragraph, except some fiction in your mind of a drug developed by
Olivieri that is being given to impoverished and hungry people who have
no choice but to take it, and which she cannot stop?  These
impoverished and hungry people who've had 100 blood transfusions
someplace (the local Voodoo doc?) and are now iron overloaded.

Do explain. Erasing your errors doesn't give you cart blanche to
blithely deny them. If you post and erase, you do run the risk of being
more likely to be mis-represented. But this case isn't one of them.

SBH
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 05 Sep 2005 05:51 GMT
> COMMENT:
> First of all, I wasn't quoting you (do you see any quotation marks?),
> but stating what I believed to be your position. I wasn't "quoting you"
> so I can't "misquote you".

No. No quote marks. Obviously, couldn't have been a quote. <<rolling
eyes>>
You weren't quoting me.

> Second, you've erased your own messages, and that makes restatment of
> your positions a lot more likely,

I don't actually *have* a position. The expectation that I should is
hilarious.

I have an opinion; which can change by the end of a post, or a day,
because I learned something that changed my opinion.

http://www.news-reader.org/sci.med.cardiology

since I don't have anything to
> reference.

You don't have it in your usenet account?

Making things up? How so? I managed to recover the exact
> exchange from somebody else's message:

But it's something you deploy in your riffs. Exaggeration and hyperbole
for effect, to enhance your ridicule of someone or something. {Then by
the second or third paragraph you bring in about 17 famous names who by
inference agreee with you (guilt by association) which you know most
people don't know dick about so you've snowed them again.}

> Harris:
> >> As for Olivieri putting loyalty to patients first, did she do them any
> >> good thereby?  She's probabaly single handedly responsible for keeping
> >> deferiprone off the market in Canada and the US.

That's ridiculous.

Okay. But most of the
> >> people who need it are in Europe and Africa. Where it has been
> >> approved, and is in use. The "disadvantaged" in Canada can't have it.

> Zee:
> >This is my opinion: The drug is harmful. Like statins. Like Vioxx. And
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> drugs for the "disadvantaged." (that IS a quote: you used the term
> first in describing her work with this drug;

Think Sri Lanka. However, I didn't say poor and poverty stricken. But
yes, disadvantaged compared to us. I think that's a given, unless were
talking about the Royal House of Saud or something comparable. The
Nepalese ruling family?

you've since erased that
> one also).

Every time I make posts I remove posts. There's nothing ulterior about
it. Use the link I gave you or use your usenet archive on your e-mail
client. I live there.

Your words above state that Olivieri can't stop pharma from
> what they're doing now, which is to go where "poverty and hunger move
> people to do things that may hurt them." With this "harmful" drug.

The drug was harmful. Oliveri wanted to warn her patients over this
small point. Apotex got upset over her wanting to mention this small
point. The drug was harmful to some people. Read it in CAUT.

> Now, how is your statement above to be understood except 1) that you
> think Olivieri developed the drug for the disadvantaged and 2) that
> pharma has gone where poverty and hunger make people use it, even after
> Olivieri found it's harmful and bad for them?  Do I have your position
> wrong, still? Then what other reasonable position can a reader draw
> from the paragraph above, eh?

<<snip nasty comment>>

> Soo.... tell me then just why am I wrong to point out that the drug
> NEVER WAS intended for the disadvantaged, and it's extremely unlikely
> ever to be used anyplace "where poverty and hunger move people to use
> it?"  And isn't being used in those places now? You did say that, and
> mean that, did you not?

It's not? It's NOT?

> What drug WERE you talking about, when you said "the drug is harmful"?

The drug in the Apotex trials.

> In fact, what the devil WERE you talking about in that entire last
> paragraph, except some fiction in your mind of a drug developed by
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Do explain. Erasing your errors doesn't give you cart blanche to
> blithely deny them.

You're being irrational.

If you post and erase, you do run the risk of being
> more likely to be mis-represented. But this case isn't one of them.

I do not want my posts archived by google. A lot of people feel the
same way.
They are available to anyone on their usenet posts, are they not? Check
it out. Right there in your e-mail client. No?

It's only Google I've erased them from. I'm not the only
sci.med.cardiology poster to systematically and regularly remove posts
from Google.

Stop putting words in my mouth, and stop assigning me motives. That's
called prejudice; you know: Natives, or Canadians, or even women. (Read
your comment about the university not firing a woman professor). Tell
me what you meant there? C'mon let's hear it?

Are you implying that she is or was there out of some kind of
preferential treatment because she's a woman?

Zee



> SBH
Robert - 05 Sep 2005 06:26 GMT
> > COMMENT:

You need to teach Sharon how to erase posts. Scumbags.
Chris Malcolm - 05 Sep 2005 12:10 GMT
In sci.med.cardiology zwalanga@yahoo.com <zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]

> Every time I make posts I remove posts. There's nothing ulterior about
> it. Use the link I gave you or use your usenet archive on your e-mail
> client. I live there.

[snip]

> I do not want my posts archived by google. A lot of people feel the
> same way.
> They are available to anyone on their usenet posts, are they not? Check
> it out. Right there in your e-mail client. No?

> It's only Google I've erased them from. I'm not the only
> sci.med.cardiology poster to systematically and regularly remove posts
> from Google.

You seem to think there are two archives of newsgroups, one in Google
and one in the "newsnet account of your email client". I presume by
the latter you mean whatever news server your emailer reads when you
read newsgroups with it. Of course not everyone reads their newsgroups
via an emailer, but those who don't still get their newsgroups from a
newsgroup server and few if any newsgroup servers offer an unlimited
archive. Almost all (if not all) are space limited and operate at
least a two level deletion strategy to conserve space. Firstly they
apply different automatic deletion expiry dates to different groups
depending on local usage and importance, for example they might give
alt groups a much shorter lifetime than sci groups. Secondly if space
becomes short they'll invoke a global clean up, for example deletion
of the oldest postings first until enough space has been recovered.

So the effect of your strategy is to deny access to your posts to
anyone who reads newsgroups via google at less than daily intervals,
and to deny historical access to your posts to anyone using google, or
anyone using a news server whose expiry time for that newsgroup has
passed. Because this is a sci group, and because disc space is
becoming cheaper, some news servers will now keep smc postings for
months, perhaps more than a year, but there is still a limit. Some
news servers, especially those small local ones which are doing news
serving as a subsidiary function, still operate quite strict limits
and everything vanishes within weeks.

It's also much harder to find old stuff in newsgroups by means other
than google.

I thought the reason you posted so much was because you wanted to
offer a public service by making good stuff you'd found more widely
available. So what have you got against the increasing numbers of
people who use google that you deny them the fruits of your efforts?

It's true you're not the only poster who deletes their stuff regularly
from google. Most of them are disputatious trolls who've got burnt too
often by people using google to point out the untruth of their claim
that "I never said that!". That's a sufficiently common troll strategy
that many regard it as one of the diagnostic criteria.  Some do it
specifically when posting private details, such as medical problems,
they'd like to keep from prying eyes. But you do it to all your posts,
most of which are cut and pastes from other sources in what you claim
is a public service.

I'm quite happy to accept your claim that your motive for publishing
your gems in vanishing ink isn't ulterior, I'm just curious. What is
your reason?

Signature

Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Robert - 05 Sep 2005 19:52 GMT
> In sci.med.cardiology zwalanga@yahoo.com <zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> your gems in vanishing ink isn't ulterior, I'm just curious. What is
> your reason?

I can tell you one and she can tell you that she does not posts things she
really believes in. She does so for discussion purposes only.
She distances herself from her own posts and many others have questioned her
honesty and ethics.
Happy Dog - 05 Sep 2005 10:10 GMT
"Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com" <
> [Harris COMMENT]:
>> > In any case, the drug never was for the impoverished, hungery and poor.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Okay, let's look at it.

Why?  At this point, res ipsa loquitur.  People who depend on the grace of
others, administered by others, are immune to the best attempts at reason.
There will be no cogent response.  Resign quietly.  And, putting people's
name in threads is so trailer trash.  Especially when they're anonymous.

moo
Dana - 05 Sep 2005 02:53 GMT
>COMMENT:
>
>Why are you posting this outdated stuff?  Upheaval and witchhuntery,
>but where is the science?  What has happened since?

You're that crazy surgeon who hangs out in one of the sci.med groups and says

COMMENT!
before every post.

Are you really working now?
Sbharris[atsign]ix.netcom.com - 05 Sep 2005 04:08 GMT
> >COMMENT:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Are you really working now?

COMMENT:

No, I'm reading and posting on USENET now.

FYI, before the Google newsreader came along, it used to be quite
difficult to tell what text was coming from whom, in a discussion
(depending on what newsreader you were using to compose with). The
COMMENT helps to do that. At least when you see it, you know that part
is coming from the poster of the present message. When discussions
become involved and quote two or three or four people with nested sets
of >>> points, it's still helpful.

It's still possible to screw up with Google. If you hit the "reply" at
the bottom of a message, you get a totally different quoting function
than if you pick "reply" out of the options menu at the header. I don't
know what genius designed that feature.

SBH
Dana - 05 Sep 2005 04:21 GMT
>It's still possible to screw up with Google. If you hit the "reply" at
>the bottom of a message, you get a totally different quoting function
>than if you pick "reply" out of the options menu at the header. I don't
>know what genius designed that feature.

COMMENT

I see!  :)

Pas de problem!
Dana - 05 Sep 2005 04:42 GMT
>> Are you really working now?
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>SBH

I know, I used to use Deja years ago.

The odd time there are people using Google who enjoy conversations and forget
to include the aspects of the poster they're replying to.  

It can be frustrating.

Some of the brightest people still crosspost, and wipe out the previous
comments so they are "orphaned".

Then there are complete fools, who somehow through the grace of God, can
actually post well, save for the content of their typing.

The best Usenet reader / poster is Microplanet Gravity.

I've been playing with Xnews, and it reminds me of a newsreader I wrote back
in 1986 as a school project.   Terrible.  
zwalanga@yahoo.com - 05 Sep 2005 06:37 GMT
Gosh Dana you do have a unique way to introduce yourself:  "are you
that crazy surgeon?".

Care to elaborate?

Zee

> >> Are you really working now?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> I've been playing with Xnews, and it reminds me of a newsreader I wrote back
> in 1986 as a school project.   Terrible.
listener - 05 Sep 2005 15:11 GMT
>> >COMMENT:
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> SBH

I use Xnews which allows color-coding of nested text levels. Very handy.
That aside, your use of "COMMENT:" never bothered me.

L.
Don Kirkman - 05 Sep 2005 23:00 GMT
It seems to me I heard somewhere that listener wrote in article
<Xns96C867A49304some1outthere@38.144.126.103>:

[Followups trimmed]

>>> >COMMENT:

>>> >Why are you posting this outdated stuff?  Upheaval and witchhuntery,
>>> >but where is the science?  What has happened since?

>>> You're that crazy surgeon who hangs out in one of the sci.med groups
>>> and says

>>> COMMENT!
>>> before every post.

>>> Are you really working now?

>> COMMENT:

>> No, I'm reading and posting on USENET now.

>> FYI, before the Google newsreader came along, it used to be quite
>> difficult to tell what text was coming from whom, in a discussion
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> than if you pick "reply" out of the options menu at the header. I
>> don't know what genius designed that feature.

>I use Xnews which allows color-coding of nested text levels. Very handy.
>That aside, your use of "COMMENT:" never bothered me.

I find the COMMENTs helpful in finding the new stuff among the
interminable requoting of weeks-old material from half-dead threads.
Some users seem never to learn how to extract ONLY what is relevant when
they add their own comments. Page after page after page after page of
multiply-quoted stuff.
Signature

Don Kirkman

Robert - 05 Sep 2005 06:34 GMT
> >COMMENT:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Are you really working now?

It helps when you try and read the who said what. The longer the posts and
more people jumping in then it really gets crazy. I always look for the
COMMENT. He's not a surgeon.
Zee uses many aliases but you can still tell who writes such over the line
stuff. She also claims she doesn't always believe everything she posts.
David Wright - 05 Sep 2005 17:34 GMT
>> >COMMENT:
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Zee uses many aliases but you can still tell who writes such over the line
>stuff. She also claims she doesn't always believe everything she posts.

I should start doing that.  It's such a great way to weasel out when
someone takes issue with you.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
 
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