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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / September 2005A tonic for sceptics
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,12980,1558544,00.html > http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,12980,1558544,00.html I love the precision with which this guy writes. Thanks, Cathy --Rich >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,12980,1558544,00.html > > I love the precision with which this guy writes. Thanks, Cathy > > --Rich Uh huh. Rich doesn't give a damn who lies. =========== I guarantee 99.9999999999999999999999999% Rich...@..akaRichard H Jacobson cyberstalker, proven liar will follow this post with his usual stalking, .making a personal attack against me. Just watch. It is like clockwork. Some things are so predictable. >>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,12980,1558544,00.html >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Rich doesn't give a damn who lies. That is a lie.  Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ >>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,12980,1558544,00.html >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Some things are so predictable. YES! Like Jan bashing Rich, Peter or me. > http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,12980,1558544,00.html How surprising. *The didactic, paternalistic, authoritative, mystifying mantle has passed to the alternative therapist, and to wear it requires one thing most doctors are uncomfortable with, dishonesty.* Uh huh. Like the MD's we see here. Peter Moran and Mark MD for example. Peter Moran wrote: All medical advances have entailed risk, ever since the first caveman > said"I > wonder what this berry does?". > Using retroviruses to try and correct lethal and potentially lethal gene > defects is a very legitimate and logic alavenue of medical research. So > this is > nothing to do with "conspiracies", "coverups" . > It is a matter of the quality of informed consent that was applied. It > would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > this > rather emotive news item. >>Peter Moran Thanks, Jan. One of my better posts. Peter Moran *Years earlier, a scientist just a few miles away from the Gelsinger's > home > in > Tucson had raised serious questions about whether the experiment was > safe.* > Documents > . Feb. 8, 2002: FDA letter, attempt to ban Dr. Wilson from other > experiments. > . March 3, 2000: FDA Warning Letter, original findings about the gene > therapy experiment. > (No coverups there,,,,,,,,,,,,,) > The trouble is, Paul Gelsinger says, Dr. Wilson's team had never told him > that anyone had ever raised questions about safety > (That's fine and dandy according to organized medicine member, Peter > Moran.) > ADVERSE REACTIONS WERE NOT REPORTED > And that was just the beginning. Federal investigators, pouring [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > covered > up problems and broken basic test rules. > In fact, just a few months before Jesse had signed up for the experiment, > several monkeys given viruses similar to Jesse's got sick. And two of them > died. > (No coverup there) > The rules for the experiment said: Even if volunteers didn't get visibly > ill, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > But when it happened a third time, they didn't stop, didn't call. > Then, a fourth time. They didn't stop or call then either > (No coverups there). > For their own safety, volunteers weren't supposed to have a blood > ammonia level higher than 50. But people were coming in with higher levels [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > experiment, his reading was 114 - more than double the original safety > limit. > (That's way cool huh Peter???) > HIGH FINANCIAL STAKES > With so many red flags from the monkey deaths to the reactions in > other > volunteers, even to Jesse's own ammonia levels, Why had Dr. Wilson's team > allowed the experiment to continue? > (Wonder if Peter can answer this question?) > At the University of Pennsylvania, the conflict committee approved > Dr. > Wilson's arrangement with Genovo. > In fact, the university itself owned a piece of his company and > stood to > profit, too. > (Hmmmmmmmmm). > In a statement, the university acknowledged that some information > "should have been shared with the FDA sooner." > (Just a minor little slip,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) > There was no information given to Jesse or his family about the monkey > deaths. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > family > to make any kind of informed decision." > (Peter STILL can't see any coverup!!!! NO dishonesty!) > CONFIDENTIAL REPORTS > He told congress that other private companies in the race for cures > had [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > So, while the government knew about them, other researchers like Dr. > Wilson and volunteers like Jesse Gelsinger were never allowed to see them. > (TRust the government!!!) > "I was outraged," says Paul. "I had a right to know. Jesse had a right to > know. > (Oh my,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,emotions). > ***In February, the Food and Drug Administration said that because Dr. > Wilson > filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and deliberately > violated regulations **** > REPEAT FOR THE HARD HEADED!!! > ***Dr. Wilson filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and > deliberately violated regulations *** > (No coverups,,,,,,,,,,no fraud,,,,,,,,,,no deliberate > violations,,,,,,,,,,,,) > This week marks the third anniversary of Jesse Gelsinger's death. At > the University of Pennsylvania, Dr. Wilson > ****is still on the faculty**** > (Soooooooooo in organized medicine,,,,,,,,,,,) > ****Filing *false and misleading reports* is A OK,,,,,,,,,,,,**** > ****REPEATED and DELIBERATE violations,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is A OK.*** > but no longer in charge of its gene therapy program. And, in Congress, > lawmakers are still debating legislation to provide more protection for > medical > volunteers. > ******in the end, whether Jesse was betrayed by the doctors he and his > family > thought they could trust.********* > Jan ========== Mark Md wrote: [Jan Drew, for example, loves to harp on one guy who ran a clinical trial and had the heart-wrenching misfortune to have a patient die, and she still paints most MDs as being evil patient-killers.] Mark MD ==== That kind of ****uncomfortable with, dishonesty**** NOT · Ben Goldacre is a doctor and writes the Bad Science column in the Guardian. UH HUH!! >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,12980,1558544,00.html > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to the alternative therapist, and to wear it requires one thing most > doctors are uncomfortable with, dishonesty.* Despite your diversionary attack on Dr. Moran, the use of placebos is dishonest and unethical except with informed consent in a controlled research setting. To invoke the placebo effect, the practitioner must lie to the patient. Doctors (and nurses) are uncomfortable doing this. Altie quacks do not share that discomfort. Anything for a buck. Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ <snip> >>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,12980,1558544,00.html >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> to the alternative therapist, and to wear it requires one thing most >> doctors are uncomfortable with, dishonesty.* Uh huh. Like the MD's we see here. Peter Moran and Mark MD for example. Peter Moran wrote: All medical advances have entailed risk, ever since the first caveman > said"I > wonder what this berry does?". > Using retroviruses to try and correct lethal and potentially lethal gene > defects is a very legitimate and logic alavenue of medical research. So > this is > nothing to do with "conspiracies", "coverups" . > It is a matter of the quality of informed consent that was applied. It > would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > this > rather emotive news item. >>Peter Moran Thanks, Jan. One of my better posts. Peter Moran *Years earlier, a scientist just a few miles away from the Gelsinger's > home > in > Tucson had raised serious questions about whether the experiment was > safe.* > Documents > . Feb. 8, 2002: FDA letter, attempt to ban Dr. Wilson from other > experiments. > . March 3, 2000: FDA Warning Letter, original findings about the gene > therapy experiment. > (No coverups there,,,,,,,,,,,,,) > The trouble is, Paul Gelsinger says, Dr. Wilson's team had never told him > that anyone had ever raised questions about safety > (That's fine and dandy according to organized medicine member, Peter > Moran.) > ADVERSE REACTIONS WERE NOT REPORTED > And that was just the beginning. Federal investigators, pouring [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > covered > up problems and broken basic test rules. > In fact, just a few months before Jesse had signed up for the experiment, > several monkeys given viruses similar to Jesse's got sick. And two of them > died. > (No coverup there) > The rules for the experiment said: Even if volunteers didn't get visibly > ill, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > But when it happened a third time, they didn't stop, didn't call. > Then, a fourth time. They didn't stop or call then either > (No coverups there). > For their own safety, volunteers weren't supposed to have a blood > ammonia level higher than 50. But people were coming in with higher levels [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > experiment, his reading was 114 - more than double the original safety > limit. > (That's way cool huh Peter???) > HIGH FINANCIAL STAKES > With so many red flags from the monkey deaths to the reactions in > other > volunteers, even to Jesse's own ammonia levels, Why had Dr. Wilson's team > allowed the experiment to continue? > (Wonder if Peter can answer this question?) > At the University of Pennsylvania, the conflict committee approved > Dr. > Wilson's arrangement with Genovo. > In fact, the university itself owned a piece of his company and > stood to > profit, too. > (Hmmmmmmmmm). > In a statement, the university acknowledged that some information > "should have been shared with the FDA sooner." > (Just a minor little slip,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) > There was no information given to Jesse or his family about the monkey > deaths. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > family > to make any kind of informed decision." > (Peter STILL can't see any coverup!!!! NO dishonesty!) > CONFIDENTIAL REPORTS > He told congress that other private companies in the race for cures > had [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > So, while the government knew about them, other researchers like Dr. > Wilson and volunteers like Jesse Gelsinger were never allowed to see them. > (TRust the government!!!) > "I was outraged," says Paul. "I had a right to know. Jesse had a right to > know. > (Oh my,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,emotions). > ***In February, the Food and Drug Administration said that because Dr. > Wilson > filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and deliberately > violated regulations **** > REPEAT FOR THE HARD HEADED!!! > ***Dr. Wilson filed "false and misleading" reports and "repeatedly and > deliberately violated regulations *** > (No coverups,,,,,,,,,,no fraud,,,,,,,,,,no deliberate > violations,,,,,,,,,,,,) > This week marks the third anniversary of Jesse Gelsinger's death. At > the University of Pennsylvania, Dr. Wilson > ****is still on the faculty**** > (Soooooooooo in organized medicine,,,,,,,,,,,) > ****Filing *false and misleading reports* is A OK,,,,,,,,,,,,**** > ****REPEATED and DELIBERATE violations,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is A OK.*** > but no longer in charge of its gene therapy program. And, in Congress, > lawmakers are still debating legislation to provide more protection for > medical > volunteers. > ******in the end, whether Jesse was betrayed by the doctors he and his > family > thought they could trust.********* > Jan ========== Mark Md wrote: [Jan Drew, for example, loves to harp on one guy who ran a clinical trial and had the heart-wrenching misfortune to have a patient die, and she still paints most MDs as being evil patient-killers.] Mark MD ==== That kind of ****uncomfortable with, dishonesty**** NOT · Ben Goldacre is a doctor and writes the Bad Science column in the Guardian. UH HUH!! Once again, unable to post an intelligent response, Jan puts her fingers in her ears and yells, "LA, LA, LA, LA, . . ." Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ <snip insults and lying webites> Thanks Cathy! UM MOM Susan > http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0,12980,1558544,00.html |
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