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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / September 2005alternative to flagyl for intestinal/stomach flora?
I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my tongue. For 2 months, it worked like magic. No odor in the stool, no coated tongue, healty saliva, and good taste in the mouth. Afterwards, symptoms came back which means the bacteria in question had become resistant and survived. When flagyl doesn't work, what are the alternatives? I recently heard that flagyl shouldn't be used alone but in conjunction with other antibiotics. What are they? I also read that fluconazole is used as a substitute in people who develop a resistance to flagyl, but isn't fluconazole(aka diflucan) an anti-fungal? do anti-fungals also kill bacteria? Finally, are there special bacteriological clinics or labs that test for the srains of bacteria that may be causing odors in the stool or funny taste in the mouth? thanks in advance. > I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > thanks in advance. COMMENT: Strong stool odor is not a medical problem. The only people whose personal feces are not odiferous, are certain high government officials. Mouth odor which is stopped by Flagyl is probably due to anaerobes. Treatment is a good going-over by a dental hygienist (root planing, etc), and a personal program of tongue scraping and regular gargling with hydrogen peroxide, and perhaps a prescription mouthwash like Periodex. Long term systemic anaerobic antibiotics are NOT the answer to such things, and will end up doing you eventually more harm than good. Occasionally tetacycline-class drugs are given for periodontal disease, but their effect is not on anaerobes, and probably isn't even an antibiotic effect per se. So my comments there do not apply. Take doxycycline or minocycline if the dentist wants you do. SBH > > I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > personal feces are not odiferous, are certain high government > officials. but when my stool odor is worse, so is the taste in my mouth and even my breath odor. > Mouth odor which is stopped by Flagyl is probably due to anaerobes. what are anaerobes? > Treatment is a good going-over by a dental hygienist (root planing, > etc), and a personal program of tongue scraping and regular gargling > with hydrogen peroxide, and perhaps a prescription mouthwash like > Periodex. i've seen a dentist. teeth and gums are fine. i do regular tongue scraping and use hyrodrogen peroxide rinse. but, the problem remains. > Long term systemic anaerobic antibiotics are NOT the answer > to such things, and will end up doing you eventually more harm than > good. Occasionally tetacycline-class drugs are given for periodontal > disease, but their effect is not on anaerobes, and probably isn't even > an antibiotic effect per se. So my comments there do not apply. Take > doxycycline or minocycline if the dentist wants you do. are doxycycline and minocycline antibiotics? the one thing that does control stool odor for me is pepto bismol but i wonder if it can be used longterm without negative effect. anyway, even pepto doesn't control the coating on the tongue and funny taste in the mouth. only flagyl achieved that. i think flagyl almost destroyed the strain of bacteria that was causing the problem but the bacteria proved to resistant. Marcus J, Try replacing your flora with Lactobacillus Acidophilus. It's over the counter. Initially take 2 caplets per diem. If it works, drop to one caplet p.d. You don't need to mess with yogurt and the potential weight gain. The caplets should drive out the other microbes within 30 days. Quack, quack David H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Marcus J, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > David H > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I've tried this but it seems like the bad bacteria kills the lactobacillus. In fact, yogurt doesn't make the stool odor any better. Sometimes it makes it worse. By the way, what are lacto caplets? Where can I buy them? And, what is 'diem'? >> Marcus J, >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >By the way, what are lacto caplets? Where can I buy them? And, what is >'diem'? How do you know you have bad bacteria overgrowth? Have you done a test like this? http://www.gsdl.com/images/reportpdf/cdsa.pdf ... >are doxycycline and minocycline antibiotics? yes >the one thing that does control stool odor for me is pepto bismol but i >wonder if it can be used longterm without negative effect. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >i think flagyl almost destroyed the strain of bacteria that was causing >the problem but the bacteria proved to resistant. If you have not resolved this (I've read only part of the thread), why not do some sleuthing and see if you can find a particular food that is the source. Keep track of everything you ingest (food, drink, pills). Eliminate one at a time, or a small group of them at a time. Do it for a few days for any particular omission. Others can perhaps suggest how long it should take, but I bet a week would be more than enough. If eliminating a particular item from your intake stops the problem, then you know the source. If nothing you eliminate has any effect, then so be it. If you find a source, you can decide what to do about it. At least you will know. bob I think he does have a medical problem. Bacteria overgrowth. I had similar symptoms in the past and ampicillin took care of it. I was really gassy, smelly, bad taste in my mouth. The antibiotics after 3 days improved my conditon 95%. I still take it when needed. > > I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > SBH > I think he does have a medical problem. Bacteria overgrowth. I had similar > symptoms in the past and ampicillin took care of it. I was really gassy, > smelly, bad taste in my mouth. The antibiotics after 3 days improved my > conditon 95%. I still take it when needed. Did you have to adjust your diet? Eating heavy protein foods seem to make things worse. But, I don't think it's so much overgrowth as a strain of bacteria that's the real the culprit. > > > I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > > > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > > > SBH Hey Marcus....I guess it could be a strain versus overgrowth. But no, I never changed my diet. I do only drink lactose free milk, my dairy consumption is low, I stay clear of foods (try to) that can upset my system, like certian veggies, gravy, certain green leaf foods etc. > > I think he does have a medical problem. Bacteria overgrowth. I had similar > > symptoms in the past and ampicillin took care of it. I was really gassy, [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > > > > > SBH I have found that I've only been given Flagyl when I've been on an IV in hospital and in conjunction with Ciproloxacin. I doubt this is 'the' way, it's just what I've happened to have done to blast out any infections. I do find that I get bad breath when I have a flare. I have a feeling though it's from acid in my upper stomach because I get reflux when I have a flare. My tongue also gets a greenish/yellowish coating when this happens, but again I think that's acid. I scrape my tongue every day and usually don't suffer with this. I only suffer with this if I'm due or in a really bad flare. Just to add, I got this too at the beginning of my liquid diet while the body adjust to not digesting fats (or something like that the dietician said). So maybe it's something to do with your digestion. I've known other people to get this too from heliobacter (sp?) which is the bacteria that causes peptic ulcers. I'm not an expert, I'm only saying my experiences. Musashi >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > thanks in advance. >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > thanks in advance. Two months of Flagyl, and now considering fluconazole? For odiferous stools and "funny taste in mouth"? What possible medical condition is your doctor treating? I can't imagine a competent physician sanctioning such treatment for such a condition. HMc I guess you could say I represent the other side of medicine (when compared to the SBHarris types). Do not use things like mouth wash. Using hydrogen peroxide on a regular basis is asking for oral cancer (and that is the opinion of an oral surgeon I know). What should you do? Plain yogurt before you go to bed, washed out with a little filtered water. You may have low stomach acid, which is causing the "bad bacteria" overgrowth or yeast infection. This can be supplemented. It take an HCl with pepsin supplement from the Country Life company with each meal, for example. Even when I wake up in the morning, there's no bad breath. You can try some vinegar mixed in water with your meal to see if you have enough stomach acid. If you get heartburn, you have too much, and then you can drink water. But don't eat food that's difficult to digest, because then you won't know if it's the food or the acid. There is hardly ever a case of needing dangerous oxidizing agents or poisons to get things under control, except in "emergency" situations. If you use such approaches, you will be damaging yourself as well as the "bad bacteria." It's like poisoning your house to get rid of small ants, and then you get cancer ten years later because of what it did to you. There are safe ways of solving these problems, but doctors just want to get you in and out of the office quickly, and the pharmaceutical companies want to sell you expensive drugs. Some people don't really think too much, and so they just go along with the program. SBHarris strikes me as one of those kinds of people, defending textbook dogma but never questioning anything or looking for better or safer approaches. Good Luck. awesome reply!! >I guess you could say I represent the other side of medicine (when > compared to the SBHarris types). Do not use things like mouth wash. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Good Luck. > I guess you could say I represent the other side of medicine (when > compared to the SBHarris types). Do not use things like mouth wash. > Using hydrogen peroxide on a regular basis is asking for oral cancer > (and that is the opinion of an oral surgeon I know). Which is not supported by the literature, but I suppose he's entitled to his opinion. I'm sure he makes his living opperating on peroxide rinsers. Not. > What should you do? Plain yogurt before you go to bed, washed out with > a little filtered water. You may have low stomach acid, which is > causing the "bad bacteria" overgrowth or yeast infection. This can be > supplemented. It take an HCl with pepsin supplement from the Country > Life company with each meal, for example. Horsemanure. Have you calculated how much actual HCl is in Country Life, vs. how much HCl a normal stomach makes (10 grams a day)? You'll also find the HCl in supplements has been neutralized. Wanna bet? > There is hardly ever a case of needing dangerous oxidizing agents or > poisons to get things under control, except in "emergency" situations. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > want to get you in and out of the office quickly, and the > pharmaceutical companies want to sell you expensive drugs. Whereas you, Einstein, want him to take some worthless junk from country life, on the theory that the acid in his stomach will includence the bacteria in his mouth. > Some people > don't really think too much, and so they just go along with the > program. SBHarris strikes me as one of those kinds of people, > defending textbook dogma but never questioning anything or looking for > better or safer approaches. You'd have to actually know what's in the textbook before you know whether or not I'm defending it. SBH > >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > HMc I can't either. I think it is self medication. > > >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > > > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > I can't either. I think it is self medication. No. Besides, how does one get antiobiotics without prescription from a doctor? > > > >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > > > > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > No. Besides, how does one get antiobiotics without prescription from a > doctor? You go to a doctor and have him prescribe meds for something like smelly stool. Totally not medically warranted. That is self medication. You telling the doctor what you want rather than the doctor telling you what's wrong. > > > > >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > > > > > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > stool. Totally not medically warranted. That is self medication. You telling > the doctor what you want rather than the doctor telling you what's wrong. actually, it didn't happen this way. i told her of my problems and she thought it might be bacterial overgrowth and prescribed flagyl, a drug i've never even heard of before. it worked wonders for about 2 month, so clearly a form of bacteria is the culprit. but, it must have grown resistant to flagyl because it came back. i went to the doctor again and she doesn't know where to go from here, so i've been looking around online just to see if others have gone thru similar experiences. at any rate, i don't think it's overgrowth but a strain of bacteria that's causing the problem. they did do a stool test and found no harmful bacteria, but the doctor said the hospital only checks for the most obvious strains like ecoli, salmonella, etc. i might have a harmless bacteria that just causes bad odors. > > > > > >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > > > > > > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > salmonella, etc. i might have a harmless bacteria that just causes > bad odors. Sorry but I find the whole thing funny. Funny in that the doctor would order a test looking for pathogens that usually cause diarrhea or dysentery or worse in order to look for smelly bacteria. Any antibiotic given will alter the flora of the intestine. In some cases it is only temporary and good or bad depending on the bacteria you want to get rid off mainly pathogens and not only because of smell. The hospital does not check for smelly bacteria. All stools are smelly and we work with them under a microbiological hood. You are not getting the message here. Let me repeat it most of the stool is composed of anaerobic bacteria that produce smelly gases. The good and the bad ones. Sometimes the good bacteria when exposed to lactose for example go to town and produce more gas than usual. It is not the bacteria that is bad but the non absorption of the lactose. Eliminate dairy and see what happens. I am suspecting some type of malabsorption involving either lactose or maybe fat or transit time. > >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I can't imagine a competent physician sanctioning such treatment for such a > condition. I was prescribed flagyl after I complained of excessively strong stool odor. The doctor said it could be bacterial overgrowth. And, flagyl did work for 2 months. But, I think the problem isn't so much overgrowth as a strain of bacteria that's causing the problem. I think that strain grew resistant to flagyl and grew back. As for fluconazole, I just found that information online, not from a doctor. One site said fluconazole is sometimes used when bacteria grow resistant to flagyl. >> >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my >> > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >doctor. One site said fluconazole is sometimes used when bacteria grow >resistant to flagyl. Well, antibiotics are going to kill your good bacteria too. In the end, unless you supplement heavily with probiotics, your gut flora is going to suffer (and you too!). My preferred probiotic supplement is Primal Defense: http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00571.html > >> >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > >> > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Primal Defense: > http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00571.html is probiotics a regimen of bacteria? >> >> >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my >> >> > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > >is probiotics a regimen of bacteria? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotics > I was prescribed flagyl after I complained of excessively strong stool > odor. The doctor said it could be bacterial overgrowth. And, flagyl did [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > doctor. One site said fluconazole is sometimes used when bacteria grow > resistant to flagyl. Flagyl is both an antibiotic and an anti-protozoal. When you take an antibiotic the number of bacteria in your gut doesn't really change, just the demographics. You might talk to your doctor about prebiotics and probiotics. Prebiotics are foods that encourage the growth of "good" bacteria. Probiotics (some mentioned in the thread) are supposed to be an oral form of "good" bacteria. If you keep adding more "good" bacteria to your digestive system, then this gives them a competitive edge against other bacteria. If you go on an antibiotic, going on a probiotic should help encourage the growth of "good" bacteria. -- Luke > >I was prescribed flagyl for strong odor in my stool and coating of my > > tongue. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > and "funny taste in mouth"? What possible medical condition is your doctor > treating? No, not two months of flagyl. I took it for 10 days. Results were good for two months afterward and then the symptoms came back. |
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