Medical Forum / General / Alternative / August 2005
Ban School Busses
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Mark Probert - 29 Aug 2005 18:43 GMT http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050829/hl_nm/health_walking_dc
Eric Bohlman - 29 Aug 2005 21:42 GMT Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 $OT1.2112@fe09.lga:
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050829/hl_nm/health_walking_dc Good ideas in principle. However, in many suburban areas high schools simply aren't located within reasonable walking distance of much of the student population. And in cases where they are, there often aren't any sidewalks (for some reason sidewalk-free developments are actually seen as a selling point by some developers; I guess the idea is to convey the impression of such affluence that nobody needs to walk).
Mark Probert - 29 Aug 2005 22:15 GMT > Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 > $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > simply aren't located within reasonable walking distance of much of the > student population. Bicycles!
And in cases where they are, there often aren't any
> sidewalks (for some reason sidewalk-free developments are actually seen as > a selling point by some developers; I guess the idea is to convey the > impression of such affluence that nobody needs to walk). One can walk on grass. I walk to work every day.
beckcham - 29 Aug 2005 23:01 GMT Lots of kids have quite a hike TO the bus in the first place. Americans do need to walk more though, an average american walks VERY little a day--just some basic excercise like that can do wonders for your health!
LadyLollipop - 30 Aug 2005 00:50 GMT >> Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >> $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > One can walk on grass. I walk to work every day. YOU don't judge for everyone.
Many live near large quarries with steep hills and impassable places.
Get over your control problem.
Rich - 30 Aug 2005 00:53 GMT >>> Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>> $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Get over your control problem. Congratulations! Even though you displayed your usual surly self, you managed to respond to Mark's post without calling him, or anyone else, a "L I A R."
Now call that a lie.
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Rich - 30 Aug 2005 00:57 GMT >>>> Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>> $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >> Many live near large quarries with steep hills and impassable places. You are wrong. Did you ever look at this country from the air? Where "many" (most) live is in the vast expanses of suburban houses. Quarries, steep hills, and impassible places are few, and fewer still live near them. I won't call your statement a lie, though. It's just a mistaken opinion.
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LadyLollipop - 30 Aug 2005 03:15 GMT >>>>> Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>>> $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > You are wrong. LOLOLOL.
Did you ever look at this country from the air? Where "many"
> (most) live is in the vast expanses of suburban houses. Quarries, steep > hills, and impassible places are few, and fewer still live near them. I > won't call your statement a lie, though. It's just a mistaken opinion. You are wrong, Rich.
I happen to live in Indiana, home of limestone, quarries are all around me.
> --Rich Rich - 30 Aug 2005 03:19 GMT >>>>>> Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>>>> $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > I happen to live in Indiana, home of limestone, quarries are all around > me. And hardly anyone lives in or near them.
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LadyLollipop - 30 Aug 2005 05:59 GMT >>>>>>> Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>>>>> $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > And hardly anyone lives in or near them. In them?? LOLOLOL!!
Near them? Yep!
Peter Bowditch - 30 Aug 2005 05:20 GMT >>>>> Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>>> $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >hills, and impassible places are few, and fewer still live near them. I >won't call your statement a lie, though. It's just a mistaken opinion. I don't live NEAR a quarry. I live IN a quarry.
Picture at http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/history/2005/08googleearth.htm
The big gum tree in the centre is on my front fence line. The line of trees behind my place (and the two houses to the left in the picture, orange and grey roofs, and several to the right) is on top of a cliff left behind after the quarry was abandoned.
You can't actually see my house because:
1) It has a charcoal grey roof 2) It is hidden by eucalyptus and jacaranda trees 3) The roof has been painted with special paint available only to members of the Illuminati which makes things invisible in photographs.
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LadyLollipop - 30 Aug 2005 03:11 GMT >>>> Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>> $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Now call that a lie. I only call lies, when there are actaully lies.
See below.
*;*
> --Rich <snip proven lying websites & spam>
Rich - 30 Aug 2005 03:21 GMT >>>>> Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>>> $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > *;* You still haven't told us what *;* means. I that a big secret like the definition of "*organized medicine*"?
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LadyLollipop - 30 Aug 2005 05:55 GMT >>>>>> Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>>>> $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > You still haven't told us what *;* means. LOLOLOL!!!!
Some things, you'll just half to figer out urself.
<snip harassing> *;*
Rich - 31 Aug 2005 01:34 GMT >>>>>>> Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>>>>> $OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > <snip harassing> *;* I've got it now. Every time you fart, this symbol appears. Thanks.
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Rich.@. - 30 Aug 2005 03:36 GMT >I only call lies, when there are actaully lies. > >See below. To see Jan's ORIGINAL POSTING, go here: http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20040310000815.25804.00001173%40mb-m01.aol.com
Jan wrote:
> >From: Mark Thorson nos...@sonic.net > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > You can't YOU JUST LIED AGAIN!!!!!!! ----- example quotes of Jan accusing people of being paid shills -----
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew: http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030415173745.18794.00000646%40mb-fn.aol.com
Any time alt. health is mentioned the personal trashing starts. Mostly comes from paid shill Mark Probert.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew: http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030412210802.08778.00000680%40mb-fw.aol.com
Internet bully Mark Probert who is a paid shill and lives off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew: http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030410170838.14245.00000347%40mb-ct.aol.com
As for Mark, he is a paid shill and lives off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew: http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030325123827.25124.00000246%40mb-mn.aol.com
As long as Mark is here, the paid shill will call names when in fact he is the one who is a bigot. Speaking of his own people.
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Best defense to logic is ignorance
Mark Probert - 30 Aug 2005 14:01 GMT >>>Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>$OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Get over your control problem. Jan, get help. You are responding to nearly every one of my messages with incredible, un-Christian, anger. Please print these out and take them to your clergyperson.
LadyLollipop - 31 Aug 2005 00:30 GMT >>>>Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>>$OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > incredible, un-Christian, anger. Please print these out and take them to > your clergyperson. You are most pathetic, Mark.
There is NO incredible, un-Christian, anger in this post.
Mark Probert - 31 Aug 2005 13:54 GMT >>>>>Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >>>>>$OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > There is NO incredible, un-Christian, anger in this post. Constantly calling me a liar, calling me pathetic, telling me that I have a control problem, etc. etc. is NOT un-Christian anger?
Eric Bohlman - 30 Aug 2005 18:38 GMT > And in cases where they are, there often aren't any >> sidewalks (for some reason sidewalk-free developments are actually >> seen as a selling point by some developers; I guess the idea is to >> convey the impression of such affluence that nobody needs to walk). > > One can walk on grass. I walk to work every day. Unfortunately, in those developments the grass is all private property and as such the homeowners can (and probably would, if they don't want their lawns being tramped on daily by tens to hundreds of kids) refuse to allow kids to walk on it.
It's one thing to tell people to make healthy behavioral choices. It's another thing to provide the infrastructure that makes such choices possible or practical (to use a non-health-related analogy: suppose a family is experiencing excessively high housing and commuting costs. Either problem *individually* can be solved by behavioral choices: moving to a cheaper neighborhood, or moving closer to work. But it's quite possible that moving to a cheaper neighborhood means moving farther from work, and/or that moving closer to work means moving to a place where housing costs are higher).
The notion that peoples lives can be determined solely by their will, without any constraint from their environment (or their genetics) is an American ideal, but reality doesn't always live up to ideals. Most of the problems with our built environment come from the fact that nobody treats it as a system; instead it's treated as individual parts that don't interact with each other. For example, the decisions to close local high schools and consolidate them into a smaller number of mega- schools with large catchment areas were made based solely on the economics of running schools; the effect of such decisions on kids' physical activity levels wasn't within the school districts' purview.
Of course, there are some problems that are simply attitudinal. There's a background notion that in kids, there's some sort of Law of Compensation between physical activity and academic achievment, with sedentariness being seen as a virtue (possibly a hasty generalization formed from observing ADHD kids); I've heard educators wishing that kids would spend their recess time in the library rather than on the playground. Americans in general seem to view walking as something beneath them; whenever I have passengers in my car, I always get razzed for my habit of picking the first open parking space within reasonable distance from the destination rather than spending several minutes cruising the lot trying to find the closest space. This aversion may historically have been class-based, similar to historical attitudes toward suntans (at one time, pale skin was a status symbol because it meant you didn't have to work in the fields; come the Industrial Revolution, a tan became a status symbol because it meant you weren't stuck working in a dim factory and could afford leisure time in the sun, and so on); it probably developed during a period when cars were considered luxury goods.
Mark Probert - 30 Aug 2005 19:11 GMT >>And in cases where they are, there often aren't any >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > their lawns being tramped on daily by tens to hundreds of kids) refuse to > allow kids to walk on it. I know what you mean. There are those in my neighborhood who refuse to install sidewalks simply because they do not want to maintain them, or to clean them of snow in winter. When I walk in front of their property, I walk on their lawns, as the traffic can be deadly. Only one of them has commented, and I basicly told him that my life is more important than his lawn.
> It's one thing to tell people to make healthy behavioral choices. It's > another thing to provide the infrastructure that makes such choices [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > work, and/or that moving closer to work means moving to a place where > housing costs are higher). Good point. In the NY metro area, that is a consideration. We also have sections which are both far and expensive.
> The notion that peoples lives can be determined solely by their will, > without any constraint from their environment (or their genetics) is an > American ideal, but reality doesn't always live up to ideals. Most of > the problems with our built environment come from the fact that nobody > treats it as a system; instead it's treated as individual parts that > don't interact with each other. I was at a planned community a few days ago and saw just the opposite. Careful planning, with bike paths, running paths, walks, etc.
For example, the decisions to close
> local high schools and consolidate them into a smaller number of mega- > schools with large catchment areas were made based solely on the > economics of running schools; the effect of such decisions on kids' > physical activity levels wasn't within the school districts' purview. NYC is doing just the opposite, sort of. Failing schools are being redefined into magnet schools and the students of the failing schools are being distributed to other schools.
> Of course, there are some problems that are simply attitudinal. There's > a background notion that in kids, there's some sort of Law of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > would spend their recess time in the library rather than on the > playground. Our schools *require* outside time during the day in addition to the balance of the lunch period.
Americans in general seem to view walking as something
> beneath them; You betcha. When I walk to work I feel like a target.
whenever I have passengers in my car, I always get razzed
> for my habit of picking the first open parking space within reasonable > distance from the destination rather than spending several minutes > cruising the lot trying to find the closest space. Ever see someone who is going to a "health club" wait for the closest spot? I do all the time. I get a laugh. Our sector cops write lots of parking tickets for those who just have to park in that space next to the end of the parking strips which are hash-lined out as non-parking spaces.
This aversion may
> historically have been class-based, similar to historical attitudes > toward suntans (at one time, pale skin was a status symbol because it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and so on); it probably developed during a period when cars were > considered luxury goods. Or, it is just laziness.
LadyLollipop - 31 Aug 2005 00:42 GMT >>>And in cases where they are, there often aren't any >>> [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > > Or, it is just laziness. Good Grief, have you given any thought to the many kids who live in rural areas?
Jeff - 31 Aug 2005 01:15 GMT (...)
> Good Grief, have you given any thought to the many kids who live in rural > areas? Maybe they can attend classes over the internet. That can meet after school for social activities, sports, etc.
Actually, in some places that really do it this way. Also, home school can be done this way.
Jeff
LadyLollipop - 31 Aug 2005 02:13 GMT > (...) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Maybe they can attend classes over the internet. That can meet after > school for social activities, sports, etc. VERY bad idea!! Parents' have to work, you know. First graders' on the internet?!?! We don't need a future generation of interrnet educated kids, with NO social interaction with other children.There is NO reason to ban school buses.
> Actually, in some places that really do it this way. Also, home school can > be done this way. > > Jeff Rich.@. - 31 Aug 2005 02:16 GMT >We don't need a future generation of interrnet educated kids, I must say I agree with Jan about this. After all look at what the internet did to Jan Drew.
The internet is a very dangerous place for somatically hypervigilant individuals who think that they have a disease because it was written about on the internet.
Aloha,
Rich
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Best defense to logic is ignorance
Jeff - 31 Aug 2005 13:49 GMT >>We don't need a future generation of interrnet educated kids, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > individuals who think that they have a disease because it was written > about on the internet. While I agree that the internet is a dangerous place, technology is used to make it so that kids can only access approved sites. Employers do it all the time to keep thier employees on task.
Jeff
> Aloha, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Best defense to logic is ignorance Jeff - 31 Aug 2005 13:48 GMT >> (...) >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with NO social interaction with other children.There is NO reason to ban > school buses. 1) Parents don't always have to work or can work from home (like on the internet).
2) You are incorrect when you suggest that internet educated kids have NO social interaction. They can still meet for social activities, sports, etc. What do you think happens with kids educated at home now?
3) I never suggested that school buses should be banned. Only, that for some kids (especially rural kids who don't have many other kids around), this is an option.
>> Actually, in some places that really do it this way. Also, home school >> can be done this way. >> >> Jeff Mark Probert - 31 Aug 2005 13:56 GMT >>(...) >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with NO social interaction with other children.There is NO reason to ban > school buses. I have mentioned that the subject line was tongue in cheek. Do I have to explain it to you?
>>Actually, in some places that really do it this way. Also, home school can >>be done this way. >> >>Jeff Mark Probert - 31 Aug 2005 13:55 GMT >>>>And in cases where they are, there often aren't any >>>> [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > Good Grief, have you given any thought to the many kids who live in rural > areas? Yes, as a matter of fact.
Thanks for asking.
swisswatchguy@hotmail.com - 30 Aug 2005 19:12 GMT > Unfortunately, in those developments the grass is all private property > and as such the homeowners can (and probably would, if they don't want dsfjldfldsjflkdsflkdseirfj
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Jeff - 31 Aug 2005 01:09 GMT >> And in cases where they are, there often aren't any >>> sidewalks (for some reason sidewalk-free developments are actually [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > their lawns being tramped on daily by tens to hundreds of kids) refuse to > allow kids to walk on it. In a lot of communities, legally the land next to the pavement is public property. In these communities, the homeowner can't prevent kids from walking on the grass because the homeowner is not the landowner. The kids are (along with everyone else in the community). (...)
Jeff
David Wright - 30 Aug 2005 01:51 GMT >Mark Probert <markprobert@lumbercartel.com> wrote in news:uOHQe.2251 >$OT1.2112@fe09.lga: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >a selling point by some developers; I guess the idea is to convey the >impression of such affluence that nobody needs to walk). There are many communities in my area that meet this description. There's a major road running past my residence, and until a few years ago, it had no sidewalks. Walking along it was quite hazardous at times.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me." -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
Jeff - 30 Aug 2005 02:24 GMT > http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050829/hl_nm/health_walking_dc The article failed to mention that suburban and rural areas, riding on school buses is the safest way to go to school? The number of school-aged kids killed in cars during morning and afternoon school commuting hours is far higher in cars than in buses. Plus, teenagers are not good drivers to begin with. To have teenagers driving to school when they are tired (like on the way to school in the morning) in large numbers is not a good idea. And many kids who would walk to school would have to walk through dangerous streets.
Being able to ride on subways and school buses also enables kids in NYC to go to far away schools (like kids in Harlem can go to excellent schools in lower Manhattan and the outer boroughs; kids in Boston suburbs are bused into Boston each day. In addition, many students are bused to prep schools, vocational schools and schools for special education around the nation.
So banning school buses would be deadly and limit students' ability to attend approiate schools.
Jeff
LadyLollipop - 30 Aug 2005 05:51 GMT >> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050829/hl_nm/health_walking_dc > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Jeff Thank you for having the integrity to speak up, Jeff!!
Mark Probert - 30 Aug 2005 14:09 GMT >>>http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050829/hl_nm/health_walking_dc >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Thank you for having the integrity to speak up, Jeff!! Jeff made good points. He, like you, missed the tongue in cheek aspect of the subject line.
Your posts to me in this thread are demonstrative of your obsession to argue with me over anything I post.
Jeff - 30 Aug 2005 14:49 GMT (...)
> Jeff made good points. He, like you, missed the tongue in cheek aspect of > the subject line. No, I didn't.
However, I thought it was a good time to bring some info about the relative safety of buses as well as some facts about school transportation.
> Your posts to me in this thread are demonstrative of your obsession to > argue with me over anything I post. It seems that you are the one who is continuing the argument.
Jeff
Mark Probert - 30 Aug 2005 15:22 GMT > (...) > >>Jeff made good points. He, like you, missed the tongue in cheek aspect of >>the subject line. > > No, I didn't. Fair enough.
> However, I thought it was a good time to bring some info about the relative > safety of buses as well as some facts about school transportation. True.
>>Your posts to me in this thread are demonstrative of your obsession to >>argue with me over anything I post. > > It seems that you are the one who is continuing the argument. Sorry, Jeff, but this thread is demonstrative of exactly the opposite. Read it again. I did and said nothing to justify Jan's attacks on me.
LadyLollipop - 31 Aug 2005 00:36 GMT >> (...) >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Sorry, Jeff, but this thread is demonstrative of exactly the opposite. > Read it again. I did and said nothing to justify Jan's attacks on me. I did not attack you.
Mark Probert - 31 Aug 2005 13:58 GMT >>>(...) >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I did not attack you. Calling me pathetic is not an attack?
Telling me that I have a control problem is not an attack?
I suppose that the events of 9/11, by your definition, were an act of freindship.
LadyLollipop - 31 Aug 2005 00:35 GMT > (...) > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Jeff Uh hmmmmmmmmmm.
LadyLollipop - 31 Aug 2005 00:34 GMT >>>>http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050829/hl_nm/health_walking_dc >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Jeff made good points. He, like you, missed the tongue in cheek aspect of > the subject line. Actually the the subject line was just plain *stupid*
> Your posts to me in this thread are demonstrative of your obsession to > argue with me over anything I post. Mark Probert - 31 Aug 2005 13:59 GMT >>>>>http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050829/hl_nm/health_walking_dc >>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Actually the the subject line was just plain *stupid* Telling me that a tongue in cheek subject line is "just plain *stupid* is not an attack?
>>Your posts to me in this thread are demonstrative of your obsession to >>argue with me over anything I post. Mark Probert - 30 Aug 2005 14:08 GMT >>http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050829/hl_nm/health_walking_dc > > The article failed to mention that suburban and rural areas, riding on > school buses is the safest way to go to school? That is quite true. I was bing a bit tongue in cheek when I composed the subject line.
The number of school-aged
> kids killed in cars during morning and afternoon school commuting hours is > far higher in cars than in buses. Correct. In my area, there have been several cases of a kid driving a car into a house.
Plus, teenagers are not good drivers to
> begin with. To have teenagers driving to school when they are tired (like on > the way to school in the morning) in large numbers is not a good idea. Those routes in purely residential areas are heavily patrolled by the police every day.
And
> many kids who would walk to school would have to walk through dangerous > streets. Not in all places.
> Being able to ride on subways and school buses also enables kids in NYC to > go to far away schools (like kids in Harlem can go to excellent schools in > lower Manhattan Like to mine...
and the outer boroughs; kids in Boston suburbs are bused
> into Boston each day. In addition, many students are bused to prep schools, > vocational schools and schools for special education around the nation. YS' school draws kids in from Staten Island, the South Fork of LI and Mt. Kisco.
> So banning school buses would be deadly and limit students' ability to > attend approiate schools. Jeff, I was being tongue-in-cheek with the subject line....
Jeff - 30 Aug 2005 14:52 GMT >>>http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050829/hl_nm/health_walking_dc >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Those routes in purely residential areas are heavily patrolled by the > police every day. Not where I live. Nor, in most communities. There just aren't enough police officers who are not doing homeland security duty.
> And >> many kids who would walk to school would have to walk through dangerous >> streets. > > Not in all places. Who said, "in all places?" I said many kids. That is accurate.
>> Being able to ride on subways and school buses also enables kids in NYC >> to go to far away schools (like kids in Harlem can go to excellent [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Jeff, I was being tongue-in-cheek with the subject line.... I know. However, while walking to school is good when it is an option, it is not always an option. And, despite the fact that most school buses don't have seat belts (except for the driver), school buses are the safest means of transportation to school for kids who don't walk.
Jeff
Mark Probert - 30 Aug 2005 15:24 GMT >>>>http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050829/hl_nm/health_walking_dc >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Not where I live. Nor, in most communities. There just aren't enough police > officers who are not doing homeland security duty. In Nassau County, it is called revenue raising.
>>And >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > have seat belts (except for the driver), school buses are the safest means > of transportation to school for kids who don't walk. True.
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