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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / August 2005Despite Weedkiller/Barrett Propaganda ... FDA approved DMSO for Interstitial Cystitis
Skeptic's Quackery opinions snipped: For any interested in the topic of IC ... here are just a few of many links ... I understand that it is a very painful and horrid disease ... we need more UNBIASED research ... http://www.ic-network.com/library/raauto.html http://cureresearch.com/i/interstitial_cystitis/intro.htm http://www.urolog.nl/urolog/php/patients.php?doc=cystitis&&lng=nl Excerpt: The pathological findings indicate a strong suspicion that the disease may be auto-immune in origin. It seems plausible that elsewhere in the body a similar auto-immune disorder may cause other health problems http://www.dmso.org/articles/lupus/perythcys.htm Systemic lupus erythematosus patients sometimes present with pathologicallu confirmed lupus interstitial cystitis. Treatment with prednisone has not been observed to be successful. Two patients are presented who were successfully treated with intravesical dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO). http://www.aafp.org/afp/20011001/1212ph.html What causes interstitial cystitis? We don't yet know what causes interstitial cystitis. We do know that infections with bacteria or viruses don't cause it. It might be caused by a defect in the lining of the bladder. Normally, the lining protects the bladder wall from the toxic effects of urine. In about 70 percent of people with interstitial cystitis, the protective layer of the bladder is "leaky." This may let urine irritate the bladder wall, causing interstitial cystitis. Other possible causes may be an increase of histamine-producing cells in the bladder wall or an autoimmune response (when antibodies are made that act against a part of the body). http://www.myalgia.com/Literature%2099%2002.htm Patients with interstitial cystitis, a common co-morbidity with fibromyalgia, were shown to have more symptomatology if they had low morning levels of salivary cortisol. Con Med & their quackwatch/heatlhfraud teams had worked so hard to soil DMSO's image ... I had never mentioned it myself previously. Why would anyone believe Quackwatch's Quackery ... look at all the lies they spout on Lyme Disease alone ... lying the the public about a serious illness ... what sicko shills they are. Barrett/Nidiffer sell quackery as facts. It's just industsry propaganda with Steve Barrett's Quack name attached ... propulgated by Nidiffer Weedkiller taking orders from the Barrett's bassement. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/nanaweedkiller.htm Here are others opinions on DMSO ... Their listing even came up number one in Google ...so powerful is their disinformation network. I've personally seen DMSO work miracles. When I was only around 27 years old, I was travelling in Mexico and hiking up and down pyramids when my knees gave out ... I could not step up a curb without intense paid. My husband talked to some doctors and they gave me DMSO ... within hours the pain totally went away. I still use it when I have overworked my muscles etc. DMSO is FDA approved for Interstitial Cystitis ... one of the autoimmune diseases (controversy there too) that many implanted women suffer from. Below this excerpt is a long article on the controversy surrounded this and discusses scleroderma. Naturally, quackswatch/healthfrauds pan it ... and declare: "Be aware that DMSO has potentially adverse side effects and offers little in the way of medical value." That's their opinion ... here are others: Here is one explanation on IC & DMSO: http://www.urologyhealth.org/adult/index.cfm?cat=03&topic=210 The other FDA-approved treatment is to place dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) into the bladder through a catheter. This is usually done once a week for six weeks, and some people continue using it as maintenance therapy (though at longer intervals; not every week). No one knows for certain how DMSO helps IC. It has several properties including blocking inflammation, decreasing pain sensation and removing a type of toxin called "free radicals" that can damage tissue. Some doctors combine DMSO with other medications such as heparin (similar to pentosan polysulfate) or steroids (to decrease inflammation). No studies have tested whether these combinations work better than dimethyl sulfoxide alone. The main side effect is a garlic-like odor that lasts for several hours after using DMSO. For some patients, DMSO can be painful to place into the bladder. This can often be relieved by first placing a local anesthetic into the bladder through a catheter, or by mixing the local anesthetic with the DMSO. http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm DMSO: Many Uses, Much Controversy Maya Muir Abstract Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), a by-product of the wood industry, has been in use as a commercial solvent since 1953. It is also one of the most studied but least understood pharmaceutical agents of our time--at least in the United States. According to Stanley Jacob, MD, a former head of the organ transplant program at Oregon Health Sciences University in Portland, more than 40,000 articles on its chemistry have appeared in scientific journals, which, in conjunction with thousands of laboratory studies, provide strong evidence of a wide variety of properties. (See Major Properties Attributed to DMSO) Worldwide, some 11,000 articles have been written on its medical and clinical implications, and in 125 countries throughout the world, including Canada, Great Britain, Germany, and Japan, doctors prescribe it for a variety of ailments, including pain, inflammation, scleroderma, interstitial cystitis, and arthritis elevated intercranial pressure. Yet in the United States, DMSO has Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval only for use as a preservative of organs for transplant and for interstitial cystitis, a bladder disease. It has fallen out of the limelight and out of the mainstream of medical discourse, leading some to believe that it was discredited. The truth is more complicated. DMSO: A History of Controversy The history of DMSO as a pharmaceutical began in 1961, when Dr. Jacob was head of the organ transplant program at Oregon Health Sciences University. It all started when he first picked up a bottle of the colorless liquid. While investigating its potential as a preservative for organs, he quickly discovered that it penetrated the skin quickly and deeply without damaging it. He was intrigued. Thus began his lifelong investigation of the drug. The news media soon got word of his discovery, and it was not long before reporters, the pharmaceutical industry, and patients with a variety of medical complaints jumped on the news. Because it was available for industrial uses, patients could dose themselves. This early public interest interfered with the ability of Dr. Jacob--or, later, the FDA--to see that experimentation and use were safe and controlled and may have contributed to the souring of the mainstream medical community on it. Why, if DMSO possesses half the capabilities claimed by Dr. Jacob and others, is it still on the sidelines of medicine in the United States today? "It's a square peg being pushed into a round hole," says Dr. Jacob. "It doesn't follow the rifle approach of one agent against one disease entity. It's the aspirin of our era. If aspirin were to come along today, it would have the same problem. If someone gave you a little white pill and said take this and your headache will go away, your body temperature will go down, it will help prevent strokes and major heart problems--what would you think?" Others cite DMSO's principal side effect: an odd odor, akin to that of garlic, that emanates from the mouth shortly after use, even if use is through the skin. Certainly, this odor has made double-blinded studies difficult. Such studies are based on the premise that no one, neither doctor nor patient, knows which patient receives the drug and which the placebo, but this drug announces its presence within minutes. Others, such as Terry Bristol, a Ph.D. candidate from the University of London and president of the Institute for Science, Engineering and Public Policy in Portland, Oregon, who assisted Dr. Jacob with his research in the 1960s and 1970s, believe that the smell of DMSO may also have put off the drug companies, that feared it would be hard to market. Worse, however, for the pharmaceutical companies was the fact that no company could acquire an exclusive patent for DMSO, a major consideration when the clinical testing required to win FDA approval for a drug routinely runs into millions of dollars. In addition, says Mr. Bristol, DMSO, with its wide range of attributes, would compete with many drugs these companies already have on the market or in development. The FDA and DMSO In the first flush of enthusiasm over the drug, six pharmaceutical companies embarked on clinical studies. Then, in November 1965, a woman in Ireland died of an allergic reaction after taking DMSO and several other drugs. Although the precise cause of the woman's death was never determined, the press reported it to be DMSO. Two months later, the FDA closed down clinical trials in the United States, citing the woman's death and changes in the lenses of certain laboratory animals that had been given doses of the drug many times higher than would be given humans. Some 20 years and hundreds of laboratory and human studies later, no other deaths have been reported, nor have changes in the eyes of humans been documented or claimed. Since then, however, the FDA has refused seven applications to conduct clinical studies, and approved only 1, for intersititial cystitis, which subsequently was approved for prescriptive use in 1978. Dr. Jacob believes the FDA "blackballed" DMSO, actively trying to kill interest in a drug that could end much suffering. Jack de la Torre, MD, Ph.D., professor of neurosurgery and physiology at the University of New Mexico Medical School in Albuquerque, a pioneer in the use of DMSO and closed head injury, says, "Years ago the FDA had a sort of chip on its shoulder because it thought DMSO was some kind of snake oil medicine. There were people there who were openly biased against the compound even though they knew very little about it. With the new administration at that agency, it has changed a bit." The FDA recently granted permission to conduct clinical trials in Dr. de la Torre's field of closed head injury. DMSO Penetrates Membranes and Eases Pain The first quality that struck Dr. Jacob about the drug was its ability to pass through membranes, an ability that has been verified by numerous subsequent researchers.1 DMSO's ability to do this varies proportionally with its strength--up to a 90 percent solution. From 70 percent to 90 percent has been found to be the most effective strength across the skin, and, oddly, performance drops with concentrations higher than 90 percent. Lower concentrations are sufficient to cross other membranes. Thus, 15 percent DMSO will easily penetrate the bladder.2 In addition, DMSO can carry other drugs with it across membranes. It is more successful ferrying some drugs, such as morphine sulfate, penicillin, steroids, and cortisone, than others, such as insulin. What it will carry depends on the molecular weight, shape, and electrochemistry of the molecules. This property would enable DMSO to act as a new drug delivery system that would lower the risk of infection occurring whenever skin is penetrated. DMSO perhaps has been used most widely as a topical analgesic, in a 70 percent DMSO, 30 percent water solution. Laboratory studies suggest that DMSO cuts pain by blocking peripheral nerve C fibers.3 Several clinical trials have demonstrated its effectiveness,4,5 although in one trial, no benefit was found.6 Burns, cuts, and sprains have been treated with DMSO. Relief is reported to be almost immediate, lasting up to 6 hours. A number of sports teams and Olympic athletes have used DMSO, although some have since moved on to other treatment modalities. When administration ceases, so do the effects of the drug. Dr. Jacob said at a hearing of the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Health in 1980, "DMSO is one of the few agents in which effectiveness can be demonstrated before the eyes of the observers....If we have patients appear before the Committee with edematous sprained ankles, the application of DMSO would be followed by objective diminution of swelling within an hour. No other therapeutic modality will do this." Chronic pain patients often have to apply the substance for 6 weeks before a change occurs, but many report relief to a degree they had not been able to obtain from any other source. DMSO and Inflammation DMSO reduces inflammation by several mechanisms. It is an antioxidant, a scavenger of the free radicals that gather at the site of injury. This capability has been observed in experiments with laboratory animals7 and in 150 ulcerative colitis patients in a double-blinded randomized study in Baghdad, Iraq.8 DMSO also stabilizes membranes and slows or stops leakage from injured cells. At the Cleveland Clinic Foundation in Cleveland, Ohio, in 1978, 213 patients with inflammatory genitourinary disorders were studied. Researchers concluded that DMSO brought significant relief to the majority of patients. They recommended the drug for all inflammatory conditions not caused by infection or tumor in which symptoms were severe or patients failed to respond to conventional therapy.9 Stephen Edelson, MD, F.A.A.F.P., F.A.A.E.M., who practices medicine at the Environmental and Preventive Health Center of Atlanta, has used DMSO extensively for 4 years. "We use it intravenously as well as locally," he says. "We use it for all sorts of inflammatory conditions, from people with rheumatoid arthritis to people with chronic low back inflammatory-type symptoms, silicon immune toxicity syndromes, any kind of autoimmune process. "DMSO is not a cure," he continues. "It is a symptomatic approach used while you try to figure out why the individual has the process going on. When patients come in with rheumatoid arthritis, we put them on IV DMSO, maybe three times a week, while we are evaluating the causes of the disease, and it is amazing how free they get. It really is a dramatic treatment." As for side effects, Dr. Edelson says: "Occasionally, a patient will develop a headache from it, when used intravenously--and it is dose related." He continues: "If you give a large dose, [the patient] will get a headache. And we use large doses. I have used as much as 30ÝmlÝIV over a couple of hours. The odor is a problem. Some men have to move out of the room [shared] with their wives and into separate bedrooms. That is basically the only problem." DMSO was the first nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory discovered since aspirin. Mr. Bristol believes that it was that discovery that spurred pharmaceutical companies on to the development on other varieties of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatories. "Pharmaceutical companies were saying that if DMSO can do this, so can other compounds," says Mr. Bristol. "The shame is that DMSO is less toxic and has less int he way of side effects than any of them." Collagen and Scleroderma Scleroderma is a rare, disabling, and sometimes fatal disease, resulting form an abnormal buildup of collagen in the body. The body swells, the skin--particularly on hands and face--becomes dense and leathery, and calcium deposits in joints cause difficulty of movement. Fatigue and difficulty in breathing may ensue. Amputation of affected digits may be necessary. The cause of scleroderma is unknown, and, until DMSO arrived, there was no known effective treatment. Arthur Scherbel, MD, of the department of rheumatic diseases and pathology at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation, conducted a study using DMSO with 42 scleroderma patients who had already exhausted all other possible therapies without relief. Dr. Scherbel and his coworkers concluded 26 of the 42 showed good or excellent improvement. Histotoxic changes were observed together with healing of ischemic ulcers on fingertips, relief from pain and stiffness, and an increase in strength. The investigators noted, "It should be emphasized that these have never been observed with any other mode of therapy."10 Researchers in other studies have since come to similar conclusions.11 Does DMSO Help Arthritis? It was inevitable that DMSO, with its pain-relieving, collagen-softening, and anti-inflammatory characteristics, would be employed against arthritis, and its use has been linked to arthritis as much as to any condition. Yet the FDA has never given approval for this indication and has, in fact, turned down three Investigational New Drug (IND) applications to conduct extensive clinical trials. Moreover, its use for arthritis remains controversial. Robert Bennett, MD, F.R.C.P., F.A.C.R., F.A.C.P., professor of medicine and chief, division of arthritis and rheumatic disease at Oregon Health Sciences University (Dr. Jacob's university), says other drugs work better. Dava Sobel and Arthur Klein conducted their own informal study of 47 arthritis patients using DMSO in preparation for writing their book, Arthritis: What Works, and came to the same conclusion.12 Yet laboratory studies have indicated that DMSO's capacity as a free-radical scavenger suggests an important role for it in arthritis.13 The Committee of Clinical Drug Trials of the Japanese Rheumatism Association conducted a trial with 318 patients at several clinics using 90 percent DMSO and concluded that DMSO relieved joint pain and increased range of joint motion and grip strength, although performing better in more recent cases of the disease.14 It is employed widely in the former Soviet Union for all the different types of arthritis, as it is in other countries around the world. Dr. Jacob remains convinced that it can play a significant role in the treatment of arthritis. "You talk to veterinarians associated with any race track, and you'll find there's hardly an animal there that hasn't been treated with DMSO. No veterinarian is going to give his patient something that does not work. There's no placebo effect on a horse." DMSO and Central Nervous System Trauma Since 1971, Dr. de la Torre, then at the University of Chicago, has experimented using DMSO with injury to the central nervous system. Working with laboratory animals, he discovered that DMSO lowered intracranial pressure faster and more effectively than any other drug. DMSO also stabilized blood pressure, improved respiration, and increased urine output by five times and increased blood flow through the spinal cord to areas of injury.15-17 Since then, DMSO has been employed with human patients suffering severe head trauma, initially those whose intracranial pressure remained high despite the administration of mannitol, steroids, and barbiturates. In humans, as well as animals, it has proven the first drug to significantly lower intracranial pressure, the number one problem with severe head trauma. "We believe that DMSO may be a very good product for stroke," says Dr. de la Torre, "and that is a devastating illness which affects many more people than head injury. We have done some preliminary clinical trials, and there's a lot of animal data showing that it is a very good agent in dissolving clots." Other Possible Applications for DMSO Many other uses for DMSO have been hypothesized from its known qualities hand have been tested in the laboratory or in small clinical trials. Mr. Bristol speaks with frustration about important findings that have never been followed up on because of the difficulty in finding funding and because "to have on your resume these days that you've worked on DMSO is the kiss of death." It is simply too controversial. A sampling of some other possible applications for this drug follows. DMSO as long been used to promote healing. People who have it on hand often use it for minor cuts and burns and report that recovery is speedy. Several studies have documented DMSO use with soft tissue damage, local tissue death, skin ulcers, and burns.18-21 In relation to cancer, several properties of DMSO have gained attention. In one study with rats, DMSO was found to delay the spread of one cancer and prolong survival rates with another.22 In other studies, it has been found to protect noncancer cells while potentiating the chemotherapeutic agent. Much has been written recently about the worldwide crisis in antibiotic resistance among bacteria (see Alternative & Complementary Therapies, Volume 2, Number 3, 1996, pages 140-144) Here, too, DMSO may be able to play a role. Researcher as early as 1975 discovered that it could break down the resistance certain bacteria have developed.23 In addition to its ability to lower intracranial pressure following closed head injury, Dr. de la Torre's work suggests that the drug may actually have the ability to prevent paralysis, given its ability to speedily clean out cellular debris and stop the inflammation that prevents blood from reaching muscle, leading to the death of muscle tissue. With its great antioxidant powers, DMSO could be used to mitigate some of the effects of aging, but little work has been done to investigate this possibility. Toxic shock, radiation sickness, and septicemia have all been postulated as responsive to DMSO, as have other conditions too numerous to mention here. DMSO in the Future Will DMSO ever sit on the shelves of pharmacies in this country as a legal prescriptive for many of the conditions it may be able to address? Will the studies we need to discover when this drug is most appropriate ever be done? Given the difficulties the drug has run into so far and the recent development of new drugs that perform some of the same functions, Mr. Bristol is doubtful. Others, however, such as Dr. Jacob and Dr. de la Torre, see the FDA approval of DMSO for interstitial cystitis and the more recent FDA go-ahead for DMSO trials with closed head injury as new indications of hope. The cystitis approval means that physicians may use it at their discretion for other uses, giving DMSO a new legitimacy. Dr. Jacob continues to believe that DMSO should not even be called a drug but is more correctly a new therapeutic principle, with an effect on medicine that will be profound in many areas. Whether that is true cannot be known without extensive a publicly reported trials, which are dependent on the willingness of researchers to undertake rigorous studies in this still-unfashionable tack and of pharmaceutical companies and other investors to back them up. That this is a live issue is proved by the difficulty the investigators with approval to test DMSO for closed head injury clinically are having finding funds to conduct the trials. In 1980, testifying before the Select Committee on Agin of the U.S. House of Representatives, Dr. Scherbel said, "The controversy that exists over the clinical effectiveness of DMSO is not well-founded--clinical effectiveness may be variable in different patients. If toxicity is consistently minimal, the drug should not be restricted from practice. The clinical effectiveness of DMSO can be decided with complete satisfaction if the drug is made available to the practicing physician. The number of patient complaints about pain and the number of phone calls to the doctor's office will decide quickly whether or not the drug is effective." It may be premature to call for the full rehabilitation of DMSO, but it is time to call for a full investigation of its true range of capabilities. References Kolb, K.H., Jaenicke, G., Kramer, M., Schulze, P.E. Absorption, distribution, and elimination of labeled dimethyl sulfoxide in man and animals. Ann NY Acad Sci 141:85-95, 1967. Herschler, R., Jacob, S.W. The case of dimethyl sulfoxide. In: Lasagna, L. (Ed.), Controversies in Therapeutics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders, 1980. Evans, M.S., Reid, K.H., Sharp, J.B. Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) blocks conduction in peripheral nerve C fibers: A possible mechanism of analgesia. Neurosci Lett 150:145-148, 1993. Demos, C.H., Beckloff, G.L., Donin, M.N., Oliver, P.M. Dimethyl sulfoxide in musculoskeletal disorders. Ann NY Acad Sci 141:517-523, 1967. Lockie, L.M., Norcross, B. A clinical study on the effects of dimethyl sulfoxide in 103 patients with acute and chronic musculoskeletal injures and inflammation. Ann NY Acad Sci 141:599-602, 1967. Percy, E.C., Carson, J.D. The use of DMSO in tennis elbow and rotator cuff tendinitis: A double-blind study. Med Sci Sports Exercise 13:215-219, 1981. Itoh, M., Guth, P. Role of oxygen-derived free radicals in hemorrhagic shock-induced gastric lesions in the rat. Gastroenterology 88:1126-1167, 1985. Salim, A.S., Role of oxygen-derived free radical scavengers in the management of recurrent attacks of ulcerative colitis: A new approach. J. Lab Clin Med 119:740-747, 1992. Shirley, S.W., Stewart, B.H., Mirelman, S. Dimethyl sulfoxide in treatment of inflammatory genitourinary disorders. Urology 11:215-220, 1978. Scherbel, A.L., McCormack, L.J., Layle, J.K. Further observations on the effect of dimethyl sulfoxide in patients with generalized scleroderma (progressive systemic sclerosis). Ann NY Acad Sci 141:613-629, 1967. Engel, M.F., Dimethyl sulfoxide in the treatment of scleroderma. South Med J 65:71, 1972. Sobel, D., Klein, A.C. Arthritis: What Works. New York: St. Martins Press, 1989. Santos, L., Tipping, P.G. Attenuation of adjuvant arthritis in rats by treatment with oxygen radical scavengers. Immunol Cell Biol 72:406-414, 1994. Matsumoto, J. Clinical trials of dimethyl sulfoxide in rheumatoid arthritis patients in Japan. Ann NY Acad Sci 141:560-568, 1967. de la Torre, J.C., et al. Modifications of experimental spinal cord injuries using dimethyl sulfoxide. Trans Am Neurol Assoc 97:230, 1971. de la Torre, J.C., et al. Dimethyl sulfoxide in the treatment of experimental brain compression. J Neurosurg 38:343, 1972. de la Torre, J.C., et al. Dimethyl sulfoxide in the central nervous system trauma. Ann NY Acad Sci 243:362, 1975. Lawrence, H.H., Goodnight, S.H. Dimethyl sulfoxide and extravasion of anthracycline agents. Ann Inter Med 98:1025, 1983. Lubredo, L., Barrie, M.S., Woltering, E.A. DMSO protects against adriamycin-induced skin necrosis. J. Surg Res 53:62-65, 1992. Alberts, D.S., Dorr, R.T. Case report: Topical DMSO for mitomycin-C-induced skin ulceration. Oncol Nurs Forum 18:693-695, 1991. Cruse, C.W., Daniels, S. Minor burns: Treatment using a new drug deliver system with silver sulfadiazine. South Med J 82:1135-1137, 1989. Miller, L., Hansbrough, J., Slater, H., et al. Sildimac: A new deliver system for silver sulfadiazine in the treatment of full-thickness burn injuries. J Burn Care Rehab 11:35-41, 1990 Salim, A. Removing oxygen-derived free radicals delays hepatic metastases and prolongs survival in colonic cancer. Oncology 49:58-62, 1992. Feldman, W.E., Punch, J.D., Holden, P. In vivo and in vitro effects of dimethyl sulfoxide on streptomycin-sensitive and resistant Escherichia coli. Ann Acad Sci 141:231, 1967. Source: Alternative & Complementary Therapies, July/August 1996, pages 230-235. DMSO Organization would like to thank the publisher for permission to place this fine article on the World Wide Web. The Publisher retains all copyright. To order reprints of this article, write to or call: Karen Ballen, Alternative & Complementary Therapies, Mary Ann Liebert, Inc., 2 Madison Avenue, Larchmont, NY 10538, (914) 834-3100. > Skeptic's Quackery opinions snipped: poor man's way of saying, "I can't rebut his arguments". >> Skeptic's Quackery opinions snipped: > >poor man's way of saying, "I can't rebut his arguments". Are you blind too???? I'll repeat what I posted which clearly showed you don't know what you're talking about ... no wonder you hide behind a mask like the other quackwatch cowards. For any interested in the topic of IC ... here are just a few of many links ... I understand that it is a very painful and horrid disease ... we need more UNBIASED research ... http://www.ic-network.com/library/raauto.html http://cureresearch.com/i/interstitial_cystitis/intro.htm http://www.urolog.nl/urolog/php/patients.php?doc=cystitis&&lng=nl Excerpt: The pathological findings indicate a strong suspicion that the disease may be auto-immune in origin. It seems plausible that elsewhere in the body a similar auto-immune disorder may cause other health problems http://www.dmso.org/articles/lupus/perythcys.htm Systemic lupus erythematosus patients sometimes present with pathologicallu confirmed lupus interstitial cystitis. Treatment with prednisone has not been observed to be successful. Two patients are presented who were successfully treated with intravesical dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO). http://www.aafp.org/afp/20011001/1212ph.html What causes interstitial cystitis? We don't yet know what causes interstitial cystitis. We do know that infections with bacteria or viruses don't cause it. It might be caused by a defect in the lining of the bladder. Normally, the lining protects the bladder wall from the toxic effects of urine. In about 70 percent of people with interstitial cystitis, the protective layer of the bladder is "leaky." This may let urine irritate the bladder wall, causing interstitial cystitis. Other possible causes may be an increase of histamine-producing cells in the bladder wall or an autoimmune response (when antibodies are made that act against a part of the body). http://www.myalgia.com/Literature%2099%2002.htm Patients with interstitial cystitis, a common co-morbidity with fibromyalgia, were shown to have more symptomatology if they had low morning levels of salivary cortisol. Con Med & their quackwatch/heatlhfraud teams had worked so hard to soil DMSO's image ... I had never mentioned it myself previously. Why would anyone believe Quackwatch's Quackery ... look at all the lies they spout on Lyme Disease alone ... lying the the public about a serious illness ... what sicko shills they are. Barrett/Nidiffer sell quackery as facts. It's just industsry propaganda with Steve Barrett's Quack name attached ... propulgated by Nidiffer Weedkiller taking orders from the Barrett's bassement. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/nanaweedkiller.htm Here are others opinions on DMSO ... Their listing even came up number one in Google ...so powerful is their disinformation network. I've personally seen DMSO work miracles. When I was only around 27 years old, I was travelling in Mexico and hiking up and down pyramids when my knees gave out ... I could not step up a curb without intense paid. My husband talked to some doctors and they gave me DMSO ... within hours the pain totally went away. I still use it when I have overworked my muscles etc. DMSO is FDA approved for Interstitial Cystitis ... one of the autoimmune diseases (controversy there too) that many implanted women suffer from. Below this excerpt is a long article on the controversy surrounded this and discusses scleroderma. Naturally, quackswatch/healthfrauds pan it ... and declare: "Be aware that DMSO has potentially adverse side effects and offers little in the way of medical value." That's their opinion ... here are others: Here is one explanation on IC & DMSO: http://www.urologyhealth.org/adult/index.cfm?cat=03&topic=210 The other FDA-approved treatment is to place dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) into the bladder through a catheter. This is usually done once a week for six weeks, and some people continue using it as maintenance therapy (though at longer intervals; not every week). No one knows for certain how DMSO helps IC. It has several properties including blocking inflammation, decreasing pain sensation and removing a type of toxin called "free radicals" that can damage tissue. Some doctors combine DMSO with other medications such as heparin (similar to pentosan polysulfate) or steroids (to decrease inflammation). No studies have tested whether these combinations work better than dimethyl sulfoxide alone. The main side effect is a garlic-like odor that lasts for several hours after using DMSO. For some patients, DMSO can be painful to place into the bladder. This can often be relieved by first placing a local anesthetic into the bladder through a catheter, or by mixing the local anesthetic with the DMSO. http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm DMSO: Many Uses, Much Controversy Maya Muir Abstract Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), a by-product of the wood industry, has been in use as a commercial solvent since 1953. It is also one of the most studied but least understood pharmaceutical agents of our time--at least in the United States. According to Stanley Jacob, MD, a former head of the organ transplant program at Oregon Health Sciences University in Portland, more than 40,000 articles on its chemistry have appeared in scientific journals, which, in conjunction with thousands of laboratory studies, provide strong evidence of a wide variety of properties. (See Major Properties Attributed to DMSO) Worldwide, some 11,000 articles have been written on its medical and clinical implications, and in 125 countries throughout the world, including Canada, Great Britain, Germany, and Japan, doctors prescribe it for a variety of ailments, including pain, inflammation, scleroderma, interstitial cystitis, and arthritis elevated intercranial pressure. Yet in the United States, DMSO has Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval only for use as a preservative of organs for transplant and for interstitial cystitis, a bladder disease. It has fallen out of the limelight and out of the mainstream of medical discourse, leading some to believe that it was discredited. The truth is more complicated. DMSO: A History of Controversy The history of DMSO as a pharmaceutical began in 1961, when Dr. Jacob was head of the organ transplant program at Oregon Health Sciences University. It all started when he first picked up a bottle of the colorless liquid. While investigating its potential as a preservative for organs, he quickly discovered that it penetrated the skin quickly and deeply without damaging it. He was intrigued. Thus began his lifelong investigation of the drug. The news media soon got word of his discovery, and it was not long before reporters, the pharmaceutical industry, and patients with a variety of medical complaints jumped on the news. Because it was available for industrial uses, patients could dose themselves. This early public interest interfered with the ability of Dr. Jacob--or, later, the FDA--to see that experimentation and use were safe and controlled and may have contributed to the souring of the mainstream medical community on it. Why, if DMSO possesses half the capabilities claimed by Dr. Jacob and others, is it still on the sidelines of medicine in the United States today? "It's a square peg being pushed into a round hole," says Dr. Jacob. "It doesn't follow the rifle approach of one agent against one disease entity. It's the aspirin of our era. If aspirin were to come along today, it would have the same problem. If someone gave you a little white pill and said take this and your headache will go away, your body temperature will go down, it will help prevent strokes and major heart problems--what would you think?" Others cite DMSO's principal side effect: an odd odor, akin to that of garlic, that emanates from the mouth shortly after use, even if use is through the skin. Certainly, this odor has made double-blinded studies difficult. Such studies are based on the premise that no one, neither doctor nor patient, knows which patient receives the drug and which the placebo, but this drug announces its presence within minutes. Others, such as Terry Bristol, a Ph.D. candidate from the University of London and president of the Institute for Science, Engineering and Public Policy in Portland, Oregon, who assisted Dr. Jacob with his research in the 1960s and 1970s, believe that the smell of DMSO may also have put off the drug companies, that feared it would be hard to market. Worse, however, for the pharmaceutical companies was the fact that no company could acquire an exclusive patent for DMSO, a major consideration when the clinical testing required to win FDA approval for a drug routinely runs into millions of dollars. In addition, says Mr. Bristol, DMSO, with its wide range of attributes, would compete with many drugs these companies already have on the market or in development. The FDA and DMSO In the first flush of enthusiasm over the drug, six pharmaceutical companies embarked on clinical studies. Then, in November 1965, a woman in Ireland died of an allergic reaction after taking DMSO and several other drugs. Although the precise cause of the woman's death was never determined, the press reported it to be DMSO. Two months later, the FDA closed down clinical trials in the United States, citing the woman's death and changes in the lenses of certain laboratory animals that had been given doses of the drug many times higher than would be given humans. Some 20 years and hundreds of laboratory and human studies later, no other deaths have been reported, nor have changes in the eyes of humans been documented or claimed. Since then, however, the FDA has refused seven applications to conduct clinical studies, and approved only 1, for intersititial cystitis, which subsequently was approved for prescriptive use in 1978. Dr. Jacob believes the FDA "blackballed" DMSO, actively trying to kill interest in a drug that could end much suffering. Jack de la Torre, MD, Ph.D., professor of neurosurgery and physiology at the University of New Mexico Medical School in Albuquerque, a pioneer in the use of DMSO and closed head injury, says, "Years ago the FDA had a sort of chip on its shoulder because it thought DMSO was some kind of snake oil medicine. There were people there who were openly biased against the compound even though they knew very little about it. With the new administration at that agency, it has changed a bit." The FDA recently granted permission to conduct clinical trials in Dr. de la Torre's field of closed head injury. DMSO Penetrates Membranes and Eases Pain The first quality that struck Dr. Jacob about the drug was its ability to pass through membranes, an ability that has been verified by numerous subsequent researchers.1 DMSO's ability to do this varies proportionally with its strength--up to a 90 percent solution. From 70 percent to 90 percent has been found to be the most effective strength across the skin, and, oddly, performance drops with concentrations higher than 90 percent. Lower concentrations are sufficient to cross other membranes. Thus, 15 percent DMSO will easily penetrate the bladder.2 In addition, DMSO can carry other drugs with it across membranes. It is more successful ferrying some drugs, such as morphine sulfate, penicillin, steroids, and cortisone, than others, such as insulin. What it will carry depends on the molecular weight, shape, and electrochemistry of the molecules. This property would enable DMSO to act as a new drug delivery system that would lower the risk of infection occurring whenever skin is penetrated. DMSO perhaps has been used most widely as a topical analgesic, in a 70 percent DMSO, 30 percent water solution. Laboratory studies suggest that DMSO cuts pain by blocking peripheral nerve C fibers.3 Several clinical trials have demonstrated its effectiveness,4,5 although in one trial, no benefit was found.6 Burns, cuts, and sprains have been treated with DMSO. Relief is reported to be almost immediate, lasting up to 6 hours. A number of sports teams and Olympic athletes have used DMSO, although some have since moved on to other treatment modalities. When administration ceases, so do the effects of the drug. Dr. Jacob said at a hearing of the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Health in 1980, "DMSO is one of the few agents in which effectiveness can be demonstrated before the eyes of the observers....If we have patients appear before the Committee with edematous sprained ankles, the application of DMSO would be followed by objective diminution of swelling within an hour. No other therapeutic modality will do this." Chronic pain patients often have to apply the substance for 6 weeks before a change occurs, but many report relief to a degree they had not been able to obtain from any other source. DMSO and Inflammation DMSO reduces inflammation by several mechanisms. It is an antioxidant, a scavenger of the free radicals that gather at the site of injury. This capability has been observed in experiments with laboratory animals7 and in 150 ulcerative colitis patients in a double-blinded randomized study in Baghdad, Iraq.8 DMSO also stabilizes membranes and slows or stops leakage from injured cells. At the Cleveland Clinic Foundation in Cleveland, Ohio, in 1978, 213 patients with inflammatory genitourinary disorders were studied. Researchers concluded that DMSO brought significant relief to the majority of patients. They recommended the drug for all inflammatory conditions not caused by infection or tumor in which symptoms were severe or patients failed to respond to conventional therapy.9 Stephen Edelson, MD, F.A.A.F.P., F.A.A.E.M., who practices medicine at the Environmental and Preventive Health Center of Atlanta, has used DMSO extensively for 4 years. "We use it intravenously as well as locally," he says. "We use it for all sorts of inflammatory conditions, from people with rheumatoid arthritis to people with chronic low back inflammatory-type symptoms, silicon immune toxicity syndromes, any kind of autoimmune process. "DMSO is not a cure," he continues. "It is a symptomatic approach used while you try to figure out why the individual has the process going on. When patients come in with rheumatoid arthritis, we put them on IV DMSO, maybe three times a week, while we are evaluating the causes of the disease, and it is amazing how free they get. It really is a dramatic treatment." As for side effects, Dr. Edelson says: "Occasionally, a patient will develop a headache from it, when used intravenously--and it is dose related." He continues: "If you give a large dose, [the patient] will get a headache. And we use large doses. I have used as much as 30ÝmlÝIV over a couple of hours. The odor is a problem. Some men have to move out of the room [shared] with their wives and into separate bedrooms. That is basically the only problem." DMSO was the first nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory discovered since aspirin. Mr. Bristol believes that it was that discovery that spurred pharmaceutical companies on to the development on other varieties of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatories. "Pharmaceutical companies were saying that if DMSO can do this, so can other compounds," says Mr. Bristol. "The shame is that DMSO is less toxic and has less int he way of side effects than any of them." Collagen and Scleroderma Scleroderma is a rare, disabling, and sometimes fatal disease, resulting form an abnormal buildup of collagen in the body. The body swells, the skin--particularly on hands and face--becomes dense and leathery, and calcium deposits in joints cause difficulty of movement. Fatigue and difficulty in breathing may ensue. Amputation of affected digits may be necessary. The cause of scleroderma is unknown, and, until DMSO arrived, there was no known effective treatment. Arthur Scherbel, MD, of the department of rheumatic diseases and pathology at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation, conducted a study using DMSO with 42 scleroderma patients who had already exhausted all other possible therapies without relief. Dr. Scherbel and his coworkers concluded 26 of the 42 showed good or excellent improvement. Histotoxic changes were observed together with healing of ischemic ulcers on fingertips, relief from pain and stiffness, and an increase in strength. The investigators noted, "It should be emphasized that these have never been observed with any other mode of therapy."10 Researchers in other studies have since come to similar conclusions.11 Does DMSO Help Arthritis? It was inevitable that DMSO, with its pain-relieving, collagen-softening, and anti-inflammatory characteristics, would be employed against arthritis, and its use has been linked to arthritis as much as to any condition. Yet the FDA has never given approval for this indication and has, in fact, turned down three Investigational New Drug (IND) applications to conduct extensive clinical trials. Moreover, its use for arthritis remains controversial. Robert Bennett, MD, F.R.C.P., F.A.C.R., F.A.C.P., professor of medicine and chief, division of arthritis and rheumatic disease at Oregon Health Sciences University (Dr. Jacob's university), says other drugs work better. Dava Sobel and Arthur Klein conducted their own informal study of 47 arthritis patients using DMSO in preparation for writing their book, Arthritis: What Works, and came to the same conclusion.12 Yet laboratory studies have indicated that DMSO's capacity as a free-radical scavenger suggests an important role for it in arthritis.13 The Committee of Clinical Drug Trials of the Japanese Rheumatism Association conducted a trial with 318 patients at several clinics using 90 percent DMSO and concluded that DMSO relieved joint pain and increased range of joint motion and grip strength, although performing better in more recent cases of the disease.14 It is employed widely in the former Soviet Union for all the different types of arthritis, as it is in other countries around the world. Dr. Jacob remains convinced that it can play a significant role in the treatment of arthritis. "You talk to veterinarians associated with any race track, and you'll find there's hardly an animal there that hasn't been treated with DMSO. No veterinarian is going to give his patient something that does not work. There's no placebo effect on a horse." DMSO and Central Nervous System Trauma Since 1971, Dr. de la Torre, then at the University of Chicago, has experimented using DMSO with injury to the central nervous system. Working with laboratory animals, he discovered that DMSO lowered intracranial pressure faster and more effectively than any other drug. DMSO also stabilized blood pressure, improved respiration, and increased urine output by five times and increased blood flow through the spinal cord to areas of injury.15-17 Since then, DMSO has been employed with human patients suffering severe head trauma, initially those whose intracranial pressure remained high despite the administration of mannitol, steroids, and barbiturates. In humans, as well as animals, it has proven the first drug to significantly lower intracranial pressure, the number one problem with severe head trauma. "We believe that DMSO may be a very good product for stroke," says Dr. de la Torre, "and that is a devastating illness which affects many more people than head injury. We have done some preliminary clinical trials, and there's a lot of animal data showing that it is a very good agent in dissolving clots." Other Possible Applications for DMSO Many other uses for DMSO have been hypothesized from its known qualities hand have been tested in the laboratory or in small clinical trials. Mr. Bristol speaks with frustration about important findings that have never been followed up on because of the difficulty in finding funding and because "to have on your resume these days that you've worked on DMSO is the kiss of death." It is simply too controversial. A sampling of some other possible applications for this drug follows. DMSO as long been used to promote healing. People who have it on hand often use it for minor cuts and burns and report that recovery is speedy. Several studies have documented DMSO use with soft tissue damage, local tissue death, skin ulcers, and burns.18-21 In relation to cancer, several properties of DMSO have gained attention. In one study with rats, DMSO was found to delay the spread of one cancer and prolong survival rates with another.22 In other studies, it has been found to protect noncancer cells while potentiating the chemotherapeutic agent. Much has been written recently about the worldwide crisis in antibiotic resistance among bacteria (see Alternative & Complementary Therapies, Volume 2, Number 3, 1996, pages 140-144) Here, too, DMSO may be able to play a role. Researcher as early as 1975 discovered that it could break down the resistance certain bacteria have developed.23 In addition to its ability to lower intracranial pressure following closed head injury, Dr. de la Torre's work suggests that the drug may actually have the ability to prevent paralysis, given its ability to speedily clean out cellular debris and stop the inflammation that prevents blood from reaching muscle, leading to the death of muscle tissue. With its great antioxidant powers, DMSO could be used to mitigate some of the effects of aging, but little work has been done to investigate this possibility. Toxic shock, radiation sickness, and septicemia have all been postulated as responsive to DMSO, as have other conditions too numerous to mention here. DMSO in the Future Will DMSO ever sit on the shelves of pharmacies in this country as a legal prescriptive for many of the conditions it may be able to address? Will the studies we need to discover when this drug is most appropriate ever be done? Given the difficulties the drug has run into so far and the recent development of new drugs that perform some of the same functions, Mr. Bristol is doubtful. Others, however, such as Dr. Jacob and Dr. de la Torre, see the FDA approval of DMSO for interstitial cystitis and the more recent FDA go-ahead for DMSO trials with closed head injury as new indications of hope. The cystitis approval means that physicians may use it at their discretion for other uses, giving DMSO a new legitimacy. Dr. Jacob continues to believe that DMSO should not even be called a drug but is more correctly a new therapeutic principle, with an effect on medicine that will be profound in many areas. Whether that is true cannot be known without extensive a publicly reported trials, which are dependent on the willingness of researchers to undertake rigorous studies in this still-unfashionable tack and of pharmaceutical companies and other investors to back them up. That this is a live issue is proved by the difficulty the investigators with approval to test DMSO for closed head injury clinically are having finding funds to conduct the trials. In 1980, testifying before the Select Committee on Agin of the U.S. House of Representatives, Dr. Scherbel said, "The controversy that exists over the clinical effectiveness of DMSO is not well-founded--clinical effectiveness may be variable in different patients. If toxicity is consistently minimal, the drug should not be restricted from practice. The clinical effectiveness of DMSO can be decided with complete satisfaction if the drug is made available to the practicing physician. The number of patient complaints about pain and the number of phone calls to the doctor's office will decide quickly whether or not the drug is effective." It may be premature to call for the full rehabilitation of DMSO, but it is time to call for a full investigation of its true range of capabilities. References Kolb, K.H., Jaenicke, G., Kramer, M., Schulze, P.E. Absorption, distribution, and elimination of labeled dimethyl sulfoxide in man and animals. Ann NY Acad Sci 141:85-95, 1967. Herschler, R., Jacob, S.W. The case of dimethyl sulfoxide. In: Lasagna, L. (Ed.), Controversies in Therapeutics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders, 1980. Evans, M.S., Reid, K.H., Sharp, J.B. Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) blocks conduction in peripheral nerve C fibers: A possible mechanism of analgesia. Neurosci Lett 150:145-148, 1993. Demos, C.H., Beckloff, G.L., Donin, M.N., Oliver, P.M. Dimethyl sulfoxide in musculoskeletal disorders. Ann NY Acad Sci 141:517-523, 1967. Lockie, L.M., Norcross, B. A clinical study on the effects of dimethyl sulfoxide in 103 patients with acute and chronic musculoskeletal injures and inflammation. Ann NY Acad Sci 141:599-602, 1967. Percy, E.C., Carson, J.D. The use of DMSO in tennis elbow and rotator cuff tendinitis: A double-blind study. Med Sci Sports Exercise 13:215-219, 1981. Itoh, M., Guth, P. Role of oxygen-derived free radicals in hemorrhagic shock-induced gastric lesions in the rat. Gastroenterology 88:1126-1167, 1985. Salim, A.S., Role of oxygen-derived free radical scavengers in the management of recurrent attacks of ulcerative colitis: A new approach. J. Lab Clin Med 119:740-747, 1992. Shirley, S.W., Stewart, B.H., Mirelman, S. Dimethyl sulfoxide in treatment of inflammatory genitourinary disorders. Urology 11:215-220, 1978. Scherbel, A.L., McCormack, L.J., Layle, J.K. Further observations on the effect of dimethyl sulfoxide in patients with generalized scleroderma (progressive systemic sclerosis). Ann NY Acad Sci 141:613-629, 1967. Engel, M.F., Dimethyl sulfoxide in the treatment of scleroderma. South Med J 65:71, 1972. Sobel, D., Klein, A.C. Arthritis: What Works. New York: St. Martins Press, 1989. Santos, L., Tipping, P.G. Attenuation of adjuvant arthritis in rats by treatment with oxygen radical scavengers. Immunol Cell Biol 72:406-414, 1994. Matsumoto, J. Clinical trials of dimethyl sulfoxide in rheumatoid arthritis patients in Japan. Ann NY Acad Sci 141:560-568, 1967. de la Torre, J.C., et al. Modifications of experimental spinal cord injuries using dimethyl sulfoxide. Trans Am Neurol Assoc 97:230, 1971. de la Torre, J.C., et al. Dimethyl sulfoxide in the treatment of experimental brain compression. J Neurosurg 38:343, 1972. de la Torre, J.C., et al. Dimethyl sulfoxide in the central nervous system trauma. Ann NY Acad Sci 243:362, 1975. Lawrence, H.H., Goodnight, S.H. Dimethyl sulfoxide and extravasion of anthracycline agents. Ann Inter Med 98:1025, 1983. Lubredo, L., Barrie, M.S., Woltering, E.A. DMSO protects against adriamycin-induced skin necrosis. J. Surg Res 53:62-65, 1992. Alberts, D.S., Dorr, R.T. Case report: Topical DMSO for mitomycin-C-induced skin ulceration. Oncol Nurs Forum 18:693-695, 1991. Cruse, C.W., Daniels, S. Minor burns: Treatment using a new drug deliver system with silver sulfadiazine. South Med J 82:1135-1137, 1989. Miller, L., Hansbrough, J., Slater, H., et al. Sildimac: A new deliver system for silver sulfadiazine in the treatment of full-thickness burn injuries. J Burn Care Rehab 11:35-41, 1990 Salim, A. Removing oxygen-derived free radicals delays hepatic metastases and prolongs survival in colonic cancer. Oncology 49:58-62, 1992. Feldman, W.E., Punch, J.D., Holden, P. In vivo and in vitro effects of dimethyl sulfoxide on streptomycin-sensitive and resistant Escherichia coli. Ann Acad Sci 141:231, 1967. Source: Alternative & Complementary Therapies, July/August 1996, pages 230-235. DMSO Organization would like to thank the publisher for permission to place this fine article on the World Wide Web. The Publisher retains all copyright. To order reprints of this article, write to or call: Karen Ballen, Alternative & Complementary Therapies, Mary Ann Liebert, Inc., 2 Madison Avenue, Larchmont, NY 10538, (914) 834-3100. >>> Skeptic's Quackery opinions snipped: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I'll repeat what I posted You usually do - and in doing so avoiding all the counterpoints you can't explain. > which clearly showed you don't know what > you're talking about ... no wonder you hide behind a mask like the > other quackwatch cowards. I see patients with IC all the time. I diagnose and treat them. I follow them. I try to help them when they have flares. It's a very unfortunate condition - but one that I'm quite familiar with. More so than you will ever be. > For any interested in the topic of IC ... here are just a few of many > links ... I understand that it is a very painful and horrid disease > ... we need more UNBIASED research ... What biased research are you condemning? > http://www.ic-network.com/library/raauto.html > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > elsewhere in the body a similar auto-immune disorder may cause other > health problems Interesting web sites. Mostly generic information. One of them states, quite fairly, "Its cause is unclear, but may be autoimmune, or perhaps only some cases are autoimmune." Which is exactly what I've been stating here.... we simply don't know. There is no evidence to point to this at this time, however. > http://www.dmso.org/articles/lupus/perythcys.htm > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > presented who were successfully treated with intravesical dimethyl > sulfoxide (DMSO). It's nice that people can publish case reports on the web, but allow me to correct this - there is no such thing as "pathologically confirmed" IC. IC is a diagnosis of exclusion. There are findings on pathology that suggest or argue for IC, but unlike, say, bladder cancer, they are NOT diagnostic in and of themselves. Also, the classic medical treatment for IC consists of 3 meds, none of which are steroids... because steroids aren't the mainstay any longer given the lack of response. They are used in burst doses. As you can see, a very muddy picture. > http://www.aafp.org/afp/20011001/1212ph.html > > What causes interstitial cystitis? > > We don't yet know what causes interstitial cystitis. But apparently Ilena Rose does. > We do know that > infections with bacteria or viruses don't cause it. That's actually not true. There are Urologists who still believe one of the causes may be a urinary tract infection with a heightened response. Not the majority, but it's still a theory. > It might be caused > by a defect in the lining of the bladder. Normally, the lining > protects the bladder wall from the toxic effects of urine. In about 70 > percent of people with interstitial cystitis, the protective layer of > the bladder is "leaky." This may let urine irritate the bladder wall, > causing interstitial cystitis. This almost certainly not the case. Generally speaking, referring to a family practice web site for a specialized disease isn't very effective. > Other possible causes may be an increase of histamine-producing cells > in the bladder wall or an autoimmune response (when antibodies are > made that act against a part of the body). Almost anything is "possible". We do know that mast cells (produce histamine) tend to be elevated and this seems to almost suredly play a part. This is not autoimmunity, however. > http://www.myalgia.com/Literature%2099%2002.htm > > Patients with interstitial cystitis, a common co-morbidity with > fibromyalgia, were shown to have more symptomatology if they had low > morning levels of salivary cortisol. The very existence of fibromyalgia is a topic of debate. > Con Med & their quackwatch/heatlhfraud teams had worked so hard to > soil DMSO's image ... I had never mentioned it myself previously. I have used DMSO in practice with excellent success. I've also used it with no success. I've clorpactin with good results in those patients who don't benefit from DMSO (essentially a mild form of bleach). > Why would anyone believe Quackwatch's Quackery ... look at all the > lies they spout on Lyme Disease alone ... lying the the public about a > serious illness ... what sicko shills they are. You're drifting. This isn't about "quacks" or lyme disease, or any such things. It's about your lack of understanding - yet pretending to know it cold - of a condition known as interstitial cystitiis. > Barrett/Nidiffer sell quackery as facts. Bla bla bla. I've snipped the rest of the post, many pages of useless information since all you were doing was supporting the use of DMSO, which as I've stated, I have personally used so obviously I think it has value in IC... for some patients. You need to focus your thoughts. Cutting and pasting pages and pages of links and quoted text and random people's opinions serve no value on a discussion board. No one will bother reading all of it which means it doesn't even help the people you hope it will. I also highly suggest being more selective with your citing of sources. Many of the ones you've linked me to have been entirely random, no basis in science or medicine, crackpot opinions. What that does is lessen the value of a good link, say to a post with actual research in a particular field. I also don't care for your personal attacks, but if that what gets you through the day, who am I to stand in the way of your happiness? >The very existence of fibromyalgia is a topic of debate. Puhleeeeeze ... the business of being a 'skeptic' means anything can be made a topic of debate ... you quacks have been selling this for years. Just because something isn't easily defined ... doesn't mean the symptomology and pains aren't there ... that's one of the most egregious of the sins of the quacks from quackwatch's team ... they go after and attempt to destroy fine scientists and doctors figuring out diifficult to diagonse diseases and syndromes. Anything to keep the Skeptic Bu$ine$$ going ... .ttp://www.breastimplantinfo.org/what_know/fda2001.html November/December 2001 Fibromyalgia and Ruptured Silicone Gel Breast Implants Women whose silicone breast implants have ruptured and spread silicone gel beyond the fibrous scar that forms around the implant may be at increased risk for fibromyalgia, an FDA study indicates. FDA researchers asked 344 women with silicone gel implants if they had experienced persistent joint pain, swelling or stiffness; rash on their breasts or chest; or fatigue. Those in the study also were asked whether a physician had diagnosed them with Raynaud's disease, Sjögren's syndrome, scleroderma, chronic fatigue, or fibromyalgia--a chronic condition marked by fatigue, musculoskeletal aches and sleep disturbances. The women also had a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) examination to detect whether their implants were intact or ruptured, and whether silicone gel had leaked outside of the scar tissue immediately surrounding the implant. The study found that women with a ruptured implant in which the silicone hadn't leaked beyond the scar tissue were no more likely than women with intact implants to report that they had either the persistent symptoms or diagnosed illnesses listed on the questionnaire. However, the women with silicone gel that had migrated outside the fibrous scar around the implant were nearly three times more likely to report that they had been diagnosed with fibromyalgia or other connective tissue disease than women without extracapsular silicone gel. "If other studies are consistent with these findings, women should be informed of the potential risk of developing fibromyalgia if their breast implants rupture and silicone gel escapes outside the fibrous scar capsule," says lead study investigator S. Lori Brown, Ph.D., M.P.H., of the FDA's Center for Devices and Radiological Health. The study, supported in part by the FDA's Office of Women's Health and the National Institutes of Health, was published in the May 2001 Journal of Rheumatology. An estimated 6 million to 8 million Americans have fibromyalgia. About 80 percent of those affected are women. The FDA took silicone gel breast implants off the market for general use in 1992 because of safety concerns. They continue to be allowed in FDA-approved studies for women seeking breast reconstruction or revision of an existing breast implant. Additionally, those who need to have an existing implant replaced for medical reasons, such as implant rupture, are also eligible for these studies. In 2000, the FDA approved the continued use of two manufacturers' saline breast implants. (See "Saline Breast Implants Stay on Market as Experts Warn About Risks" in the July-August 2000 FDA Consumer.) Further information on breast implants may be found at www.fda.gov/cdrh/breastimplants. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ www.BreastImplantAwareness.org >>The very existence of fibromyalgia is a topic of debate. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Anything to keep the Skeptic Bu$ine$$ going ... My business actually has no dependency on fibromyalgia. I never said I didn't believe it exists. I merely pointed out, in an objective manner, that the existence of that particular condition as currently defined remains a topic of debate. > My business actually has no dependency on fibromyalgia. I never said I > didn't believe it exists. I merely pointed out, in an objective manner, > that the existence of that particular condition as currently defined remains > a topic of debate. Just as an aside...I've never heard a satisfactory differentiation between "fibromyalgia" and somatiform disorder. Mark, MD >> My business actually has no dependency on fibromyalgia. I never said I >> didn't believe it exists. I merely pointed out, in an objective manner, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Mark, MD Why am I not surprised. http://www.afsafund.org/research.htm#spectroscopy [x-posts snipped] > Just as an aside...I've never heard a satisfactory differentiation > between "fibromyalgia" and somatiform disorder. You should try being DXd as having it and see what treatment you get... welll- when I say DXd I should say I was diagnosed as having "fibromyalgia or pain syndrome or whatever you want to call it". This by a rheumatologist after about 9 years of pain that had been half-treated as "it's all in your head" pain. I was referred back to my GP cause I supposedly need multi-modal treatment yet this rheumatologist's colleague *does* treat fibro. For me ADs didn't help, muscle relaxants may have helped a bit but not enough to be really worth it... that may just have been the dose though. I was prescribed sleeping pills on the basis of that theory that the pain is due to improper sleep or something but I'm not eager to start using them. I've been on a waiting list at a pain centre for three quarters of a year now and in the meantime I just try to keep a bit active, do my stretching and relaxation exercises and get on with life with a sense of humour and some positive thinking. It could be worse, right? :) Vashti > [x-posts snipped] > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Vashti The reason I said that is because I've seen studies wherein the best treatment for FM seems to be sunlight and moderate exercise, in addition to some modest benefit by adding an antidepressant. I don't treat FM that often, but the patients who I have seen with FM all seem to have some interesting mental health comorbidities. One young lady had pseudoseizures ("Mom! Quick, rub my feet; I feel a seizure coming on...aaahh, that's better."), and 'debilitating' pain from all the classic FM trigger points. *Until* she went to Europe for the summer on a student exchange. For 3 months, she was totally symptom-free, then she came back to the stress of her divorcing parents' house and it all came back. I know there are plenty of people who carry the diagnosis of "fibromyalgia", but I'm not sure that it isn't a condition heavily tied in with mental health issues much moreso than physiologic causes. It would be tempting to tell a patient that she has FM (a presumably physical illness) instead of telling her something that makes her think that *you* think she's nuts. People with somatiform disorder are not crazy, but it *is* a mental health issue and should be treated as such. But everybody is frightened of being labelled with a mental health diagnosis, so they'd rather hear that their symptoms have a physical cause. I'm not trying to insult anyone who has the diagnosis of "fibromyalgia"; this is just my take on it. Mark, MD >> [x-posts snipped] >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > treat FM that often, but the patients who I have seen with FM all seem > to have some interesting mental health comorbidities. Hello Doc, ALL you had to do to find studies was a quick search on the net like I did. > One young lady had pseudoseizures ("Mom! Quick, rub my feet; I feel a > seizure coming on...aaahh, that's better."), and 'debilitating' pain [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Mark, MD Your take is the problem. You made your judgment from one patient. I know plenty of ladies who have *real* physical pain. I have already posted the studies. Your not trying to insult, (which*I* do not believe) nevertheless the below is very insulting to those who are already suffering with fibro. Somatiform Disorders represent a group of disparate psycho-somatic illnesses in which the common element is unconsciously acting out psychological problems through the theatre of the body. Typically there is a plethora of vague complaints (e.g. fatigue, depression, malaise, aching in all the joints) with no known organic cause. One example is "conversion" disorder, in which severe anxiety leads to non-organic dysfunction of body parts as in hysterical blindness or paralysis. A much rarer example is "factitious disorder," in which the patient inflicts real signs and symptoms of illness in order to assume the sick role, e.g. cutting, poisoning or burning himself or injecting himself with urine or saliva to produce a rash. The great majority of factitious disorder patients manufacture physical problems to receive medical and nursing attention, and these patients can ultimately be detected. Yet it is asserted (without much proof) by some forensic mental health experts that factitious disorder can lead patients to "fake bad" during cognitive testing to be perceived as having schizophrenia, traumatic brain damage or other mental problems. Since such patients visit misery and social stigma upon themselves, there seems to be little in the way of objective or rational pay off. Hence such experts say the motivation is "unknown," but may have something to do with being an abused child. <snip> > Your take is the problem. You made your judgment from one patient. There you go Jan, lying again. Where did I say I had only treated one patient with FM? > I know plenty of ladies who have *real* physical pain. And I never said that FM pain isn't real. > I have already posted the studies. > > Your not trying to insult, (which*I* do not believe) nevertheless the below > is very insulting to those who are already suffering with fibro. Like I said in my post, nobody likes the idea of being told they might have, at least in part, a "mental condition". You are a perfect example: you are clearly delusional and have a variety of personality disorders, but you'd rather blame your behavior on mercury, Jews and a vast conspiracy of EVIL ORGANIZED MEDICINE. Denying the existence of somatiform disorders doesn't make them disappear. Mark, MD > <snip> >> >> Your take is the problem. You made your judgment from one patient. > > There you go Jan, lying again. Where did I say I had only treated one > patient with FM? I didn't say you had only treated one patient. Read it again. >> I know plenty of ladies who have *real* physical pain. > > And I never said that FM pain isn't real. What you was: Just as an aside...I've never heard a satisfactory differentiation between "fibromyalgia" and somatiform disorder. >> I have already posted the studies. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Like I said in my post, nobody likes the idea of being told they might > have, at least in part, a "mental condition" <snip insult> This post isn't about me. > Denying the existence of somatiform disorders doesn't make them > disappear. > > Mark, MD >Denying the existence of somatiform disorders doesn't make them >disappear. Nor does denying the chemical, metals, and other toxic environmental forces at play make you anything but another Healthfraud Ratbagger. http://www.ratbags.com/posse/whoarewe.htm#Lowry > I know plenty of ladies who have *real* physical pain. I've got real physical pain but I can't claim to know its etiology. It's painful alright though. > Somatiform Disorders represent a group of disparate psycho-somatic > illnesses in which the common element is unconsciously acting out [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > leads to non-organic dysfunction of body parts as in hysterical > blindness or paralysis. Gosh, I didn't know anyone else had that one: one evening I'd been dozing in bed and woke up with what I assumed was a panic attack. I couldn't move, open my eyes or speak but could hear and think. My SO walked in and out of the bedroom a few times and I couldn't call out to him, he thought I was asleep so he went downstairs to watch tv. Don't know how long this lasted... can't even recall if I went back to sleep before being able to move again. Damned freaky it was. Vashti >> I know plenty of ladies who have *real* physical pain. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Vashti http://www.headinjurylaw.com/subcat_glossary_somatiform.html Hi, Vashti. What you describe below sounded very familiar to me. Took me a few days to remember what it was called. I've never experienced this but it must be a frightening thing to wake up and not be able to move. You think you might have had a "sleep paralysis"? http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html There are other links from that page with information. > Gosh, I didn't know anyone else had that one: one evening I'd been > dozing in bed and woke up with what I assumed was a panic attack. I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Vashti > Hi, Vashti. What you describe below sounded very familiar to me. > Took me a few days to remember what it was called. I've never > experienced this but it must be a frightening thing to wake up and > not be able to move. It was! > You think you might have had a "sleep paralysis"? > http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html > There are other links from that page with information. Thanks Nana! This does look more like what happened, I didn't awake feeling panicky but became so after not being able to move. If it happens again I'll be prepared! The site does say it seems to occur more frequently in those lying on their back and I *was* lying on my back that time even though I never go to sleep on my back. Thanks again, it's nice to have that experience explained and given a place in my mind. It's now filed under "Harmless, will pass". :) Vashti > > [x-posts snipped] > > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > don't treat FM that often, but the patients who I have seen with > FM all seem to have some interesting mental health comorbidities. I've sort of been diagnosed with panic disorder(with agoraphobia) and ADHD, frankly I wasn't impressed with the effect of the ADs I tried(Paxil, Effexor and Zoloft): more side effects than anything else, little reduced anxiety and raised muscular tension. My GP wants me to try a tricyclic but right now I'm concentrating on getting my prolactinoma sorted. Funny thing about the whole panic is that it's responded far better to treatment and rational thought since the prolactinoma was discovered and treated. It may be silly but I'd like my prolactin levels to be in the normal range before adding another med into the mix. > One young lady had pseudoseizures ("Mom! Quick, rub my feet; I > feel a seizure coming on...aaahh, that's better."), and > 'debilitating' pain from all the classic FM trigger points. > *Until* she went to Europe for the summer on a student exchange. > For 3 months, she was totally symptom-free, then she came back to > the stress of her divorcing parents' house and it all came back. This lady thought her attacks were seizures? Some panic attacks could feel that way I guess... I've been having trouble differentiating between chest pain due to panic/hyperventilation and actual physical chest pain, it took me a long time to realise the chest pain wasn't your "normal" panic thing. Doc mumbled something about Tietze's syndrome but had an ECG done anyway even after I said it wasn't my heart... guess he thought it would comfort me to have proof that my heart was ok since I've got panic disorder but truthfully having an ECG was more frightening: "he wouldn't check it without an indication" sort of thing. I wish the rheumatologist had explained his diagnosis(or whatever he wanted to call it<g>): he did some poking, pushing and bending, ordered some blood tests and one x-ray and at a later appointment just said what he thought I had and sent me off. It was only later that I found out about the trigger points, I don't know how many of the trigger points I responded to or if they were equally spread on both sides of the body. Might ask my GP if his report to her was more detailed. Yeah, the holiday thing: when you come home everything is right where you left it, sometimes worse since you've had some time off and aren't used to coping with it. :/ > I know there are plenty of people who carry the diagnosis of > "fibromyalgia", but I'm not sure that it isn't a condition heavily > tied in with mental health issues much moreso than physiologic > causes. It would be tempting to tell a patient that she has FM (a > presumably physical illness) instead of telling her something that > makes her think that *you* think she's nuts. Personally I don't care what it is, just really want to know how to treat it... so far everything I've read seems to contradict more than agree on causes and treatments but worse is seeing the fibro NG where those who "only" have a fibro DX are rare: so many of the posters have other physical and/or mental DXs. Makes me wonder if fibro isn't often being used as a dumping ground for pain symptoms that later get diagnosed as something else entirely. > People with somatiform disorder are not crazy, but it *is* a > mental health issue and should be treated as such. But everybody > is frightened of being labelled with a mental health diagnosis, so > they'd rather hear that their symptoms have a physical cause. True for many. I'd prefer to be told the pain was due to a psychological problem cause then at least I'd have an idea of how to treat it. I do think most with chronic pain would benefit from being taught CBT and relaxation techniques if only to help deal with the emotional aspects of having pain. > I'm not trying to insult anyone who has the diagnosis of > "fibromyalgia"; this is just my take on it. No, I understand that. It's just a very frustrating diagnosis to be given especially after having been told for *years* that the pain was due to er- sorry, literal translation from Dutch "pelvic instability". Sunshine and moderate exercise eh? I'll take that over another round of AD roulette... it's stopped raining for now. :) Vashti > Sunshine and moderate exercise eh? I'll take that over > another round of AD roulette... it's stopped raining for now. :) > > Vashti Yeah. Evidently, it really does work. My personal suspicion is that engaging in outdoors activities occupies the mind and temperament with other, more pleasurable pursuits, and thereby takes one's mind off the stressful triggers of the classic FMS symptoms. >From personal experience (yes, anecdotal at best), I can say that when I get out in the garden or go camping or go biking with my kids, my daily aches and pains seem to disappear. I don't have FMS so I can't say I know what a FMS sufferer goes through, but I can easily imagine an extension of this phenomenon having a similar effect on those folks. Anyway, if you get out in the sunshine, sweat it up a bit and occupy your mind with externals (as opposed to "internals"), you might see a pleasant change. Again, it's just my personal take, but I'd be pleased to hear from you if it does do some help...or even if it doesn't. One more data point, you see. Mark, MD > > Sunshine and moderate exercise eh? I'll take that over > > another round of AD roulette... it's stopped raining for now. :) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > takes one's mind off the stressful triggers of the classic FMS > symptoms. That would basically be like how one can handle panic disorder: distraction and keeping busy. Still think CBT would help but for now I'm making do with Ellis and Burns. > From personal experience (yes, anecdotal at best), I can say that > when I get out in the garden or go camping or go biking with my > kids, my daily aches and pains seem to disappear. I don't have > FMS so I can't say I know what a FMS sufferer goes through, but I > can easily imagine an extension of this phenomenon having a > similar effect on those folks. Well the pain is sort of like flu pain magnified, to me at least, with the regular extra pain like a hip giving or the chest pain. The "normal" pain feels as if it's around the joints and sort of radiating from there so could be tendon or muscular in nature. Warmth helps, some exercise helps so long as I don't overdo it... the agoraphobia is a challenge but I try to get out on the bike or walking every day even if I'm in pain and despite the rain.<g> > Anyway, if you get out in the sunshine, sweat it up a bit and > occupy your mind with externals (as opposed to "internals"), you > might see a pleasant change. Again, it's just my personal take, > but I'd be pleased to hear from you if it does do some help...or > even if it doesn't. One more data point, you see. It's sort of what I've been doing already along with more positive or realistic attitudes... it's amazing how many negative, pointless thoughts a person can have in a day without even realising, now I know they're there I can talk back to them rationally and distract myself from physical sensations: say 8 years ago my pain was higher or maybe my tolerance lower but I allowed my own negative thoughts about the pain get to me, I *really* don't want to go back to being that miserable ball of pain again! Vashti I agree with what is being said here by both Mark and Vashti. When I am not feeling well I try real hard to go outside for a short time. I have to be careful because the sun can cause me problems if in it for too long due to my meds. If I am unable to go outside or for a ride, I either go out with someone in the family or do things in the house to try to keep my mind on other things. It's not magic but sometimes it can make a long day a bit shorter. UM MOM Susan >> > Sunshine and moderate exercise eh? I'll take that over >> > another round of AD roulette... it's stopped raining for now. :) [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Vashti > I agree with what is being said here by both Mark and Vashti. > When I am not feeling well I try real hard to go outside for a > short time. I have to be careful because the sun can cause me > problems if in it for too long due to my meds. Yup, a walk doesn't have to be a long one(once I only made it down the road- just across the street from the park but that's ok) and even sitting out in the garden with a book is better than staying indoors even if I do have to put the parasol between me and my prying evil-old-lady neighbour. ;) > If I am unable to go outside or for a ride, I either go out with > someone in the family or do things in the house to try to keep my > mind on other things. It's not magic but sometimes it can make a > long day a bit shorter. UM MOM Susan The simplest things can help distract, even cleaning if you focus on the task at hand... sorting stuff, finally putting photos in an album, decluttering a cupboard or wardrobe. It's fixing your attention on the little things you do each day and learning to enjoy them I guess. Oh, and feeling proud/satisfied at every accomplishment no matter how minor it might seem to others. :) Vashti >>>The very existence of fibromyalgia is a topic of debate. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >that the existence of that particular condition as currently defined remains >a topic of debate. Right ... meaningless distraction going nowhere creating 'doubt' about the topic ... I'm very familiar with the tactics ... So how do you heal your patients with IC? >>>>The very existence of fibromyalgia is a topic of debate. >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Right ... meaningless distraction going nowhere creating 'doubt' about > the topic ... I'm very familiar with the tactics ... The tactic of truth? From what I've seen you don't have much familiarity with that. You seem to be familiar with grandstanding. > So how do you heal your patients with IC? The management of IC is a complex topic which continues to evolve. There is no simple cookie cutter answer. It depends on the severity of the symptoms, of the clinical exam, of the thorough evaluation of other possible causes such as PID, of the pathologic findings, of the cystoscopic findings, etc. In general, once all other possible pathologies are ruled out and a diagnosis of IC is established, a trial of medications is initiated since it has the lowest associated risk and is the least invasive treatment. Response rates vary widely. We don't know why. There are as many theories as there are researchers. It does seem -anecdotally - that the longer the delay in diagnosis the more refractory the condition. I don't know if that's actually been published but seems to hold true in my experience. If medical therapy fails there are surgical options, such as cystoscopy with hydrodistension (expanding the bladder) which in and of itself seems to help a reasonable number of patients and does not require the instillation of possible harmful agents. It is also helpful in establishing the diagnosis (reveals bladder capacity and presence of terminal bleeding). This treatment is followed by a concoction of typically three medications which seem to have more effect after hydrodistension even they didn't work previously. Could it be placebo effect? I suppose so, but we don't know (a theme with this topic). When this fails there are other options available - each comes with more risk and these include the instillation of DMSO as you have alluded to, along with other agents. There are new, cutting edge technologies available such as interstim, and others that are in trial as we speak that may add more options to this condition. I wish we had an easier way to manage this problem, but we don't. > There are as many theories >as there are researchers. Exactly ... and exactly the reason why the HealthFrauds claiming to have facts when they have theories and distraction is so alarming ... Thanks for your info on IC ... many, many women suffer from it along with other breast implant related syndromes and diseases ... defined and otherwise ... in my support group. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org >> There are as many theories >>as there are researchers. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Thanks for your info on IC ... many, many women suffer from it along > with other breast implant related syndromes and diseases Do not twist. IC is not a "breast implant related syndrome". It is its own entity. >>> There are as many theories >>>as there are researchers. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Thanks for your info on IC ... many, many women suffer from it along >> with other breast implant related syndromes and diseases ========================= > Do not twist. IC is not a "breast implant related syndrome". It is its > own entity. Because some women with breast implants may also have IC, this lady thinks there is a connection to breast implants at fault ??? >>>> There are as many theories >>>>as there are researchers. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >also have IC, this lady thinks there is a connection >to breast implants at fault ??? It's far more complex than that ... and I'm extremely aware at all the games played to deny connections between breast implants and the myriad of autoimmune and autoimmune like related symptoms ... If you read about IC ... you'll find it connected frequently with lupus, scleroderma, RA and fibro ... all diseases seen in high frequency in the breast implanted populations. The manufacturers and PS's bought some short, biased and badly designed "studies" claiming no 'evidence' of a connection ... but those are going by the wayside. When the immune system is under attack as it is in women with breast implants ... it is less able to protect itself from environmental assaults. The infamous and discredited Quack Barrett has been writing chemical cartel backed garbage about MCS ... like a madman wanting to go for the licenses of find doctors and scientists exploring the environmental assaults on the human body ... "Science" doesn't begin when a 'peer reviewed study' gets published ... those of us who work with the implanted population see the trends. >>>>> There are as many theories >>>>>as there are researchers. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > lupus, scleroderma, RA and fibro ... all diseases seen in high > frequency in the breast implanted populations. From what I know IC is very common with people who don't have all those diseases or have breast implants either. My sister, kids and husband all had IC and one by one went to a urologist who did a scope inside and then later scraped their urethra's tubes of a calcium buildup to enlarge the opening. They never knew why it happened to the whole family, but they moved and never had a problem again. I thought it might have been their water. Tami There are many ways to break a leg ... and many ways immune systems can break down. I fully believe that the assault of breast implants and all their toxic ingredients and chemicals lead to immune breakdown and autoimmune symptoms. >>>>>> There are as many theories >>>>>>as there are researchers. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >Tami >tami1965@yahoo.com How interesting ... your very, very first post on Usenet ... and it's to discredit my work. My guess is you're an old foe ... with another new name. >>tami1965@yahoo.com > > How interesting ... your very, very first post on Usenet ... and it's > to discredit my work. > > My guess is you're an old foe ... with another new name. Who are you, lady? I just started using yahoo if it is any business of yours. >>>tami1965@yahoo.com >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Who are you, lady? Wrong term. Try net stalker. > I just started using yahoo if it is any business of yours. Don't worry. If you keep this up, she will make it her business. Which work are you referring to? Your slander pages on bi victims? Your name calling of sick people. Labeling anyone with derogatory names who do not agree with "HER ALMIGHTYNESS"? > >tami1965@yahoo.com > > How interesting ... your very, very first post on Usenet ... and it's > to discredit my work. > > My guess is you're an old foe ... with another new name. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/SS.html www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/SBIPrivateClub.htm >>>> There are as many theories >>>>as there are researchers. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >also have IC, this lady thinks there is a connection >to breast implants at fault ??? That was no lady, that was Ilena. And yes, she is quite capable of believing exactly that. And if you don't slaveringly accept every damn thing she says, you'll soon have your very own section on her demented "the world is out to get me" web pages. -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and natural things that money can buy." -- Steve Martin |
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