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Medical Forum / General / Alternative / August 2005

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A conversation with an anti-vaccination liar

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Peter Bowditch - 02 Aug 2005 00:59 GMT
Dawn comes up like thunder

In November last year I had an email conversation with Dawn Winkler
who runs an anti-vaccination liar outfit called "Health Advocacy in
the Public Interest". (See
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/hapi.htm) Actually, I had
several conversations with her as she had the rather unsettling habit
of answering a message with multiple replies, thus making coherent
discourse difficult. As this was combined with delusion, lack of
reading comprehension, inability to face facts, and just plain
outright lying I finally gave up when my bizarrity quotient was
exceeded. Ms Winkler has decided to contact me again, and, true to
form, she sent more than one message. Here are those messages (sent
eight minutes apart) and my kind and gentle replies.

Dear Peter,
You are polite and you gave up our conversation?
I am mentally ill?
Dawn

<Ms Winkler then went on to quote something I had written to a
hospital, warning them about her>

I replied:

I am not a psychiatrist, so I am not qualified to make a diagnosis,
but you certainly appear to be delusional, paranoid, phobic and
sociopathic. You freely confess to "seeing" such non-existent things
as eight-year-old autistics who sh.t their pants and cannot speak and
other children with "green snot" constantly running down their faces.
Normal people do not see these things. You seem to believe that there
is some massive conspiracy involving pharmaceutical companies, but you
believe this without evidence. You are fearful of non-existent threats
such as mercury in vaccines which do not contain mercury, even though
all evidence suggests that no harm would come from the mercury anyway
even if it was there. You engage in activities which, if successful,
would lead to the deaths or damage of countless children, but you show
no concern whatsoever for these children. On that last point, I am
possibly wrong to call it "sociopathic". "Psychopathic" is probably a
better word.

----------------------

Peter,
Am I a "child killer"? Because that's how you word the introduction to
our conversation.
Dawn

I replied:

I am not accusing you of being like some of the heroes of the
anti-vaccination movement and actually directly murdering children
yourself. There are, however, ways of indirectly killing children.
Anyone who actively denied food to children, causing them to starve to
death, would be be called a child killer. Anyone who denied water to
children, causing them to die of thirst and dehydration, would be
called a child killer. Anyone who denied medical care for children
suffering from life-threatening illnesses or injuries would be called
a child killer. People who place children in harm's way by using them
as soldiers or to clear minefields are called child killers. Nobody
would dispute the "child killer" label in these circumstances.

You, on the other hand, actively advocate that children should be
denied protection against life-threatening and disabling diseases, and
the inevitable result of such advocacy, should it be even partially
successful, is the death or permanent harm of many children. If you
got everything you wanted, the deaths would be counted in the tens of
millions and the blind, halt and lame in the hundreds of millions. You
would sentence children to death. You are no different to the examples
listed above. Get the words "Child Killer" embroidered onto a baseball
cap. Put the cap on. It will fit perfectly.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

LadyLollipop - 02 Aug 2005 01:21 GMT
<snip lies and garbage>
mike - 02 Aug 2005 04:25 GMT
<snip>
> I am not a psychiatrist, so I am not qualified to make a diagnosis,
> but you certainly appear to be delusional, paranoid, phobic and
> sociopathic. You freely confess to "seeing" such non-existent things
> as eight-year-old autistics who sh.t their pants and cannot speak and
> other children with "green snot" constantly running down their faces.
> Normal people do not see these things.

Moron.
If you did not see "eight-year-old autistics who sh.t their pants and
cannot speak" it does not mean they are "non-existent" and does not make
people seeing them delusional etc. In the old days, I could recommend you
visit a spec-ed school and observe a class for low-functioning autistics.
These days, of course, everybody is a terrorist/child kidnapper suspect
and it is not feasible. But you can still ask a mental health or spec ed
professional or educate yourself a bit. I am afraid though you do not and
can not be educated.
Are all of you at ratbags.com such idiots?
john - 02 Aug 2005 10:54 GMT
get a life

"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message

usual hostile antagonistic drivel--see tone scale antagonism
http://www.whale.to/v/tone.html
Peter Bowditch - 02 Aug 2005 11:17 GMT
>get a life
>
>"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
>
>usual hostile antagonistic drivel--see tone scale antagonism
>http://www.whale.to/v/tone.html

Sadly, the children killed by the actions of John Scudamore and Dawn
Winkler don't have a chance to "get a life".

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

David Wright - 03 Aug 2005 04:44 GMT
>>get a life
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Sadly, the children killed by the actions of John Scudamore and Dawn
>Winkler don't have a chance to "get a life".

Yeah, but if there's anyone qualified to recognize "hostile,
antagonistic drivel," it's John-boy.  His whale.to site is brimful of
it.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and
     natural things that money can buy."
                                       -- Steve Martin
jdeere2312@yahoo.com - 03 Aug 2005 18:39 GMT
> >get a life
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Sadly, the children killed by the actions of John Scudamore and Dawn
> Winkler don't have a chance to "get a life".

Vaccines can save lives.

But you seem to take it as a matter of faith that
vaccines cannot have toxins, or that
the toxins cannot matter.  That's plain stupid.

Use your common sense.  Nobody is perfect.
Besides, some people in the planet are crooks.

Pharmaceuticals can make mistakes.  They
have the usual percentage of crooks,
plus, they have a lot of money, so they
can make humongous coverups.

It's stupid to take corporate spin as
absolute "scientific" truth.

There is usually no actual science in it.  It's
just business.

And "peer review" is no protection against
planted or false data.

"Peer review" does NOT even equal "scientific".
It's just good practice, is all.  Not
necessarily related to the scientific method.
Alternative practitioners and skeptics
can be equally scientific or even more so than
"peer review" practitioners.

Corporations are not in it for altruism.
The executive officers got to be executive
officers because they were good at
defending their turf, sometimes by
hook and by crook.  They won't stop doing
what they do, just because people are
being killed or damanged because of it.

If necessary, they will buy a few politicians
and a few major scientists to defend themselves.
Yes, even "reputed" scientists can be
purchased in some cases.

Use some common sense and observe the world
around you, and the nature of people, before
you stupidly jump to conclusions.

In short, grow up.  Before you go around
accusing good people of bad things, and
defending some of the worst humans on the planet.
Mark Probert - 03 Aug 2005 22:24 GMT
>>>get a life
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> vaccines cannot have toxins, or that
> the toxins cannot matter.  That's plain stupid.

Actually, what is just plain stupid is the red herring you just caught.

> Use your common sense.  Nobody is perfect.

Anti-vac liars are perfect. Perfectly evil.

> Besides, some people in the planet are crooks.

True. That is why one has to look at the motives of the anti-vac liars
and those that defend them.

> Pharmaceuticals can make mistakes.  

No, pharmaceuticals do not make mistakes. People make mistakes.

They
> have the usual percentage of crooks,
> plus, they have a lot of money, so they
> can make humongous coverups.

When facts are few, toss in a good conspiracy. Good idea.

> It's stupid to take corporate spin as
> absolute "scientific" truth.

Who did that? Can you cite the words where Peter did that? No, of course
you cannot.

> There is usually no actual science in it.  It's
> just business.

Wrong. I would explain, but, alas, there is no evidence you would
understand as I would use facts, not conspiracies.

> And "peer review" is no protection against
> planted or false data.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> can be equally scientific or even more so than
> "peer review" practitioners.

Not really. I would explain, but, alas, there is no evidence you would
understand as I would use facts, not conspiracies.

> Corporations are not in it for altruism.
> The executive officers got to be executive
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> what they do, just because people are
> being killed or damanged because of it.

Could you take a moment and explain how this says that vaccine are not
safe and effective?

> If necessary, they will buy a few politicians
> and a few major scientists to defend themselves.
> Yes, even "reputed" scientists can be
> purchased in some cases.

Yes, that was demonstrated by Andy Wakefield. Bought and paid for by the
anti-vac lawyers.

> Use some common sense and observe the world
> around you, and the nature of people, before
> you stupidly jump to conclusions.

That is excellent advice. When you received it from someone, you should
have adopted it, instead of merely passing it on.

> In short, grow up.  Before you go around
> accusing good people of bad things, and
> defending some of the worst humans on the planet.

Anti-vacs are, by definition, NOT GOOD PEOPLE. They promote their agenda
by providing utterly false and misleading information. In many ways,
their agenda is to promote dead children.
Peter Bowditch - 04 Aug 2005 00:36 GMT
>> >get a life
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Vaccines can save lives.

No "can" about it. Vaccines DO save lives.

>But you seem to take it as a matter of faith that
>vaccines cannot have toxins, or that
>the toxins cannot matter.  That's plain stupid.

I am drinking a cup of tea. Tea has toxins in it. What is your point?
I have never denied that vaccines (or anything else) are completely
harmless.

>Use your common sense.  Nobody is perfect.
>Besides, some people in the planet are crooks.

Many are crooks, but I fail to see what this has to do with vaccines.

>Pharmaceuticals can make mistakes.  They
>have the usual percentage of crooks,
>plus, they have a lot of money, so they
>can make humongous coverups.

The total dollar market for vaccines in the entire world is not much
more than one pharmaceutical company, Pfizer, spends on research.
Vaccines are almost exclusively bought by governments and aid agencies
and price is very important. Anything which only requires three doses
in a lifetime is never going to be a big money spinner for the maker,
especially when research and liability insurance may be very
expensive.

>It's stupid to take corporate spin as
>absolute "scientific" truth.

Have I ever said that I do?

>There is usually no actual science in it.  It's
>just business.

There is plenty of science in the business.

>And "peer review" is no protection against
>planted or false data.

You will have some evidence for the "planted data" of course.

>"Peer review" does NOT even equal "scientific".
>It's just good practice, is all.  Not
>necessarily related to the scientific method.
>Alternative practitioners and skeptics
>can be equally scientific or even more so than
>"peer review" practitioners.

As you obviously have no idea of the relationship between "science"
and "peer review" any further discussion is pointless.

>Corporations are not in it for altruism.
>The executive officers got to be executive
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>what they do, just because people are
>being killed or damanged because of it.

Just as the anti-vaccination liars will not stop their murderous
practices. And - they like it so much they do it for free.

>If necessary, they will buy a few politicians
>and a few major scientists to defend themselves.
>Yes, even "reputed" scientists can be
>purchased in some cases.

Wakefield, Yazbak, ...

>Use some common sense and observe the world
>around you, and the nature of people, before
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>accusing good people of bad things, and
>defending some of the worst humans on the planet.

Want to see some of the "worst humans on the planet"?

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/vaxliars1.htm

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

jdeere2312@yahoo.com - 04 Aug 2005 01:23 GMT
...
> >"Peer review" does NOT even equal "scientific".
> >It's just good practice, is all.  Not
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> As you obviously have no idea of the relationship between "science"
> and "peer review" any further discussion is pointless.

This point, though also drivel, is worth commenting
upon since many people share this misconception.

Because modern scientists uses peer review a lot,
many people believe this is the essense of "science".

However, this is a misunderstanding.  The scientific
method does not actually contain a "peer review" step.
The method primarily consists of observing, formulating
hyoptheses to explain observation, and conducting
experiments to refine/reject/accept the hypotheses.

The "peer review" is simply a process by which
many journals decide what to publish.  The idea
is that if a person is working in field X, other
people who have studied field X are the best
suited to comment upon that person's work.

Thus an article in a history journal may be
peer reviewed, without forcing history to
be called some kind of science.

The sources of confusion between "peer review" and
"science" is simple:  During the last century or so,
science has become lucrative, thus attracting those who
have little interest in or understanding of
the scientific thought.  Since their aim has been
to be SEEN as "successful" in science (rather
than BEING successful in science), they focus
primarily on how to get throgh the "peer review"
process and get their names in the limelight.

Thus in their minds, the "peer review" process
becomes equated with "science".  In a natural
trickle down process, many idiots then pick
up this misunderstanding.
cathyb - 04 Aug 2005 01:41 GMT
jdeere2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> ...
> > >"Peer review" does NOT even equal "scientific".
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Because modern scientists uses peer review a lot,
> many people believe this is the essense of "science".

No, they don't, which is why Peter used the phrase 'the relationship
between "science" and "peer review"'

> However, this is a misunderstanding.  The scientific
> method does not actually contain a "peer review" step.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> The sources of confusion between "peer review" and
> "science" is simple:

There is no confusion.

>> During the last century or so,
> science has become lucrative, thus attracting those who
> have little interest in or understanding of
> the scientific thought.

That's right; thick, greedy people who don't understand science can
easily get scientific and medical degrees, and then move on to
post-doctoral research (so lucrative...).

>  Since their aim has been
> to be SEEN as "successful" in science (rather
> than BEING successful in science), they focus
> primarily on how to get throgh the "peer review"
> process and get their names in the limelight.

Unfortunately, in order to be seen as successful, you must be
successful. Crappy work does often make it through the peer review
process, only to be discredited later or ignored. It's not perfect,
just the best method we have of excluding crap.

Which is why you can be justly suspicious of alt-practitioners who
avoid it. If their results are good and their methods sound, they have
no reason to do so.

> Thus in their minds, the "peer review" process
> becomes equated with "science".  In a natural
> trickle down process, many idiots then pick
> up this misunderstanding.

Apparently, that would just be you.
Ilena Rose - 04 Aug 2005 02:00 GMT
>That's right; thick, greedy people who don't understand science can
>easily get scientific and medical degrees,

Apparently that's what King Quack Barrett has done ... his lies about
the deaths after vaccinations make anyone with a conscience wonder why
you and your teammates repeat his lies.

I've never lied about vaccinations ... but I have raised awareness to
their potential risks ... while being insulted and called a "Liar" ...
it is Barrett & your Team who is lying and the numbers clearly prove
it.

This Quack Campaign is disgusting ... and Barrett's lies about the
known deaths should be a crime.
mlowry3@bellsouth.net - 04 Aug 2005 05:31 GMT
> >That's right; thick, greedy people who don't understand science can
> >easily get scientific and medical degrees,
>
> Apparently that's what King Quack Barrett has done ... his lies about
> the deaths after vaccinations make anyone with a conscience wonder why
> you and your teammates repeat his lies.

<snip>

And apparently your learned self is STILL too thick to get a degree.
You know, I had an easy dozen people over the age of 40 in my medical
school class, and I trained alongside a 60 year old lady in residency.

What's your excuse, Ilena?  Are you lazy or just plain stupid?

Mark, MD
David Wright - 07 Aug 2005 18:26 GMT
>> >That's right; thick, greedy people who don't understand science can
>> >easily get scientific and medical degrees,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>What's your excuse, Ilena?  Are you lazy or just plain stupid?

The two characteristics are not mutually exclusive.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and
     natural things that money can buy."
                                       -- Steve Martin
Peter Bowditch - 04 Aug 2005 07:53 GMT
>I have never denied that vaccines (or anything else) are completely
>harmless.

Before everyone climbs all over me, what I really meant was "claimed"
not "denied".

Anti-vaccination liars are, of course, free to quote my mistake until
the end of time or all children are dead, whichever comes first.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

jdeere2312@yahoo.com - 04 Aug 2005 19:01 GMT
> >I have never denied that vaccines (or anything else) are completely
> >harmless.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Anti-vaccination liars are, of course, free to quote my mistake until
> the end of time or all children are dead, whichever comes first.

I can't quite definitely make out from your messages whether
you are simply mistaken or simply dishonest (which
is why I bothered to comment upon your post, it's worthless
to argue with crooks bent upon dishonesty.)

So let us assume you are simply mistaken -- in that case,
why are you picking nits instead of addressing substance?

Surely the basic argument has been clear to any honestly
interested parties:  there was a mistake made in marketing
some vaccine(s).  Mistakes happen in science, and an
ESSENTIAL component (unlike "peer review") of science
is reviewing hypotheses from mistakes.

Are you claiming this is impossible to have had happen?
Are you claiming this did not happen in the particular cases?
Are you claiming that the interested parties are so
honest that if it did happen, they would have sounded
alarms and pushed their companies into bankruptcy
courts, allowing their rivals a clear field and
destroying their precious careers?

What's in your mind that turns you against the
very people out to protect your interests, and
makes you protective of the people who care for
little but the bottom line and their personal careers?
Why defend those who would happily leave you
paralyzed or an imbecile (by covering up any
mistakes, so no research could be done to
fix you up, if a mistake along that line occurred?)

Care to analyze yourself a bit here?

I can understand the motive of the PR types,
but it's hard to understand some of the motives
around here.
Mark Probert - 04 Aug 2005 19:35 GMT
>>>I have never denied that vaccines (or anything else) are completely
>>>harmless.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> interested parties:  there was a mistake made in marketing
> some vaccine(s).  

Exactly what is the mistake?

Mistakes happen in science, and an
> ESSENTIAL component (unlike "peer review") of science
> is reviewing hypotheses from mistakes.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> but it's hard to understand some of the motives
> around here.
Peter Bowditch - 04 Aug 2005 22:00 GMT
>> >I have never denied that vaccines (or anything else) are completely
>> >harmless.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>is why I bothered to comment upon your post, it's worthless
>to argue with crooks bent upon dishonesty.)

I'll help you out. Neither.

>So let us assume you are simply mistaken -- in that case,
>why are you picking nits instead of addressing substance?

As I am not mistaken, your question is moot.

>Surely the basic argument has been clear to any honestly
>interested parties:  there was a mistake made in marketing
>some vaccine(s).  Mistakes happen in science, and an
>ESSENTIAL component (unlike "peer review") of science
>is reviewing hypotheses from mistakes.

What were these mistakes?

>Are you claiming this is impossible to have had happen?

For what to have had happen?

>Are you claiming this did not happen in the particular cases?

What cases?

>Are you claiming that the interested parties are so
>honest that if it did happen, they would have sounded
>alarms and pushed their companies into bankruptcy
>courts, allowing their rivals a clear field and
>destroying their precious careers?

What the f.ck are you talking about? Do you have a point?

>What's in your mind that turns you against the
>very people out to protect your interests, and
>makes you protective of the people who care for
>little but the bottom line and their personal careers?

The people out to protect my interests are not the people who want to
deny children the chance to grow up.

>Why defend those who would happily leave you
>paralyzed or an imbecile (by covering up any
>mistakes, so no research could be done to
>fix you up, if a mistake along that line occurred?)

As I asked above, what the f.ck are you talking about?

>Care to analyze yourself a bit here?
>
>I can understand the motive of the PR types,
>but it's hard to understand some of the motives
>around here.

My motives are simple and transparent. I love children. I want to see
them grow up into healthy adults. They can't do that if they are dead
or damaged, which are the inevitable results if the anti-vaccination
liars get their way. I cannot understand why they hate children so
much.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Ilena Rose - 04 Aug 2005 22:10 GMT
How can you defend the lies Barrett/Quackwatch/defunct NCAHF spreads
about the deaths and injuries after vaccinations, Peter?
jdeere2312@yahoo.com - 05 Aug 2005 13:45 GMT
> How can you defend the lies Barrett/Quackwatch/defunct NCAHF spreads
> about the deaths and injuries after vaccinations, Peter?

You are being duped; "Peter Bowditch" is yet another
face of Public Relations.  This one is good, for
a while I was in doubt!

You can't argue with these people, they have
no concern for actual human beings, they only care
for their few bucks.  I recommend not paying
any attention to these people except using
them for generating attention to the issues
that deserve attention.

They are useful for that reason, but always
remember not to get upset by anything they say.
And never try to have the last word.  Let
these dudes have the last words, that way
they upset more honest lurkers and generate
more attention.

Trying to respond to every nonsensical thing
they say is not a good idea.  Just set them
off, respond to the points until they are
reduced to putting forth clear nonsense
and being overly hypocritical, then leave
them alone!
cathyb - 05 Aug 2005 13:54 GMT
jdeere2...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > How can you defend the lies Barrett/Quackwatch/defunct NCAHF spreads
> > about the deaths and injuries after vaccinations, Peter?
>
> You are being duped; "Peter Bowditch" is yet another
> face of Public Relations.  This one is good, for
> a while I was in doubt!

Did this sentence make sense to anybody?

> You can't argue with these people, they have
> no concern for actual human beings,

'They' demonstrably care about kids.

> they only care
> for their few bucks.

What few bucks?

>I recommend not paying
> any attention to these people except using
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> they upset more honest lurkers and generate
> more attention.

Does this person have a point?

> Trying to respond to every nonsensical thing
> they say is not a good idea.  Just set them
> off, respond to the points until they are
> reduced to putting forth clear nonsense
> and being overly hypocritical, then leave
> them alone!

What hte f.ck is this guy talking about?
JohnDoe - 05 Aug 2005 14:59 GMT
> jdeere2...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> What hte f.ck is this guy talking about?

Phew, thanks for posting this Cathy, I almost started to think the
problem was me. Glad to see I'm not the only one who doesn't understand
a word of this post. The words are there, but the meaning is missing.
David Wright - 07 Aug 2005 18:28 GMT
>> How can you defend the lies Barrett/Quackwatch/defunct NCAHF spreads
>> about the deaths and injuries after vaccinations, Peter?
>
>You are being duped; "Peter Bowditch" is yet another
>face of Public Relations.  This one is good, for
>a while I was in doubt!

I'm wondering if this "jdeere" is actually a sock puppet for PeterB on
the days when Pete's off his meds?

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and
     natural things that money can buy."
                                       -- Steve Martin
jdeere2312@yahoo.com - 05 Aug 2005 14:16 GMT
> What were these mistakes?

"What mistakes"?

"What mistakes?"

So you are basically saying you have been generating
all this noise without even knowing what mistake
we have all been talking about?

Well, let us be stupid for a minute and assume
that in all of your reading and writing, you
still have no clue what you have been talking
about.  So here is a url, read the part
about the "Danish study" which was supposed
to prove that the theory about a vaccination
mistake was wrong:

http://tinyurl.com/dkbmw

After you read the URL, you can then also do
your homework and actually read about the numerous
other things that you have been writing about,
presumably without any clue whatsoever.

[If Peter Bowditch were a lawyer: "Your honor,
my client is innocent.  My heart bleeds that
such an innocent man is being accused by
evil people.  Here are lots of reasons why
my client is innocent...

(three hours later...)

You ask what is my client accused
of?  What is my client accused of?
Well, I didn't have time to read the case
documents, but clearly whatever my client
is accused of, didn't happen.]
Mark Probert - 05 Aug 2005 16:10 GMT
>>What were these mistakes?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> all this noise without even knowing what mistake
> we have all been talking about?

Who is the "we" and when did you start talking?

> Well, let us be stupid for a minute

Based on my reading of your posts, I question why you limited it just a
minute, as it seems to be your way of life.

and assume
> that in all of your reading and writing, you
> still have no clue what you have been talking
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://tinyurl.com/dkbmw

Citing your own blathering, which IIRC was refuted, is moronic.

> After you read the URL, you can then also do
> your homework and actually read about the numerous
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> documents, but clearly whatever my client
> is accused of, didn't happen.]

Yes, you are a maroon.
Peter Bowditch - 06 Aug 2005 01:09 GMT
>> What were these mistakes?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>all this noise without even knowing what mistake
>we have all been talking about?

If someone would tell me about this "mistake" I might be able to
comment.

>Well, let us be stupid for a minute

Just for a minute? Do you promise?

>and assume
>that in all of your reading and writing, you
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>http://tinyurl.com/dkbmw

I read where, in the midst of some crap about ginko, you assert that
something was wrong with some unnamed study done in Denmark.

As I and others have said before - what the f.ck are you talking
about?

>After you read the URL, you can then also do
>your homework and actually read about the numerous
>other things that you have been writing about,
>presumably without any clue whatsoever.

Is English your first language? You seem to have trouble with syntax.

>[If Peter Bowditch were a lawyer: "Your honor,
>my client is innocent.  My heart bleeds that
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>documents, but clearly whatever my client
>is accused of, didn't happen.]

Have you ever thought of a career in postmodern literary theory? The
stuff the write there makes no sense either.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

john - 03 Aug 2005 23:34 GMT
> Sadly, the children killed by the actions of John Scudamore and Dawn
> Winkler don't have a chance to "get a life".

These are just some of the thousands killed by vaccines
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/deaths.html  then we have the hundreds of
thousands over the years given nasty diseases like autism

and, for example, measles vaccine has never saved one life that you can
prove as measles deaths had declined by 99.4% before vaccination, yes 99.4%.
Yet the MMR vaccine KILLS all the time.
Ilena Rose - 04 Aug 2005 02:17 GMT
Thanks so much for your link ... I was horrified to read of all the
deaths and injuries ... next to Barrett's obscene lies ...

No wonder they fight us so hard ...

>> Sadly, the children killed by the actions of John Scudamore and Dawn
>> Winkler don't have a chance to "get a life".
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>prove as measles deaths had declined by 99.4% before vaccination, yes 99.4%.
>Yet the MMR vaccine KILLS all the time.
john - 04 Aug 2005 05:27 GMT
> Thanks so much for your link ... I was horrified to read of all the
> deaths and injuries ... next to Barrett's obscene lies ...
>
> No wonder they fight us so hard ...

It is lie heaped upon lie in an industry run by Satanists.  Without
vaccination they would lose billions in revenue in treating the vast
industry of vaccine disease http://www.whale.to/a/vax_dis.html

This is otitis media http://www.whale.to/vaccine/otitis.html  just one
vaccine disease worth millions, then add in all the asthma medication etc.

At the top they know vaccines don't work and kill people, plus earn them all
their money.  I think this doc even talks about that
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/autismOne2005.ppt.pdf

If they know that then morons like Bowshit are to be expected.  he probably
believes that sh.t, but they have no trouble brainwashing people like him,
if they can make Manchurian robots like Sue Ford
http://www.whale.to/b/taylor.html  then Bowshits are two a penny

"They (The Council) also were very condescending to those individuals who
didn't eat properly or exercise.  They take immaculate care of their bodies
as far as health goes. They are fit and trim and they use natural medicines.
The American Medical Association is fashioned to prescribe drugs and perform
various treatments that although they may be unsuspecting, tend to weed out
the weaker species. The Council views the AMA's 'modern medicine' as
barbaric. Their plans are to have mind-enhanced health associates, like some
of the USC medical and dental graduates, who provide the new health care for
the Elite, after the takeover.   Precision surgery with laser technology
will make the so-called "modern methods" of surgery obsolete.  Miracle
medicines and herbs (God's pharmacy) will keep the body healthy.   An
understanding of the way the electro-molecular energy field around the body
operates will allow the healthy body to be kept in perfect alignment
creating perpetual perfect health or it can be brought back into alignment
easily with the use of high-tech field variation equipment. This will be the
modern medicine of the future and upcoming doctors will be trained in these
methods in order to further the evolution of the Elite. The Elite plan to
enjoy total and complete health due to their technology in electromagnetic
fields.  They also have antibodies against the diseases they let loose and
make sure they are protected. Of course all of these findings came about by
research and experiments on unsuspecting groups of people."-Brice Taylor
(Thanks For The Memories p 283)
Ilena Rose - 04 Aug 2005 05:42 GMT
How can Barrett/Quackwatch get away with such downright easy to prove
wrong lies ? ?

I've seen it for years ... but learning more about their dangerous
propaganda and tactics ... makes me more determined to shine the light
on their deception.

Thanks so much for the links ... I'm sorry for the way you are treated
here ...

>> deaths and injuries ... next to Barrett's obscene lies ...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>vaccination they would lose billions in revenue in treating the vast
>industry of vaccine disease http://www.whale.to/a/vax_dis.html
cathyb - 04 Aug 2005 05:43 GMT
> > Thanks so much for your link ... I was horrified to read of all the
> > deaths and injuries ... next to Barrett's obscene lies ...
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> research and experiments on unsuspecting groups of people."-Brice Taylor
> (Thanks For The Memories p 283)

Whaleto and satanists. Most convincing:)
JohnDoe - 04 Aug 2005 07:54 GMT
>>Thanks so much for your link ... I was horrified to read of all the
>>deaths and injuries ... next to Barrett's obscene lies ...
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> research and experiments on unsuspecting groups of people."-Brice Taylor
> (Thanks For The Memories p 283)

Could you please explain to me how I become a member of 'The Elite'? It
sounds like I better become one quick or I'm gonna be in big trouble.
john - 05 Aug 2005 00:13 GMT
"JohnDoe" <dont@spam.me> wrote in message news:42f1bbb4$0$23415
> Could you please explain to me how I become a member of 'The Elite'? It
> sounds like I better become one quick or I'm gonna be in big trouble.

No one in their right mind would want to be a Satanist.  You just have to
dodge the medical hoaxes http://www.whale.to/a/hoaxmed.html

and see his main control ploy--fear of disease
http://www.whale.to/a/fear_dis.html
JohnDoe - 05 Aug 2005 08:08 GMT
> "JohnDoe" <dont@spam.me> wrote in message news:42f1bbb4$0$23415
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and see his main control ploy--fear of disease
> http://www.whale.to/a/fear_dis.html

Mind if I sneeze on you when I have the flu and see what happens? No,
better still, let's inject you with HIV and see what happens. You should
have no problem with that, since germs do not cause disease, do they?

What I find amazing is that the psychiatric disorder with which the
maker(s) of whale.to are obviously afflicted does not interfere with
their ability to use a computer, or at least lead a life that allows
them to publish that stuff. Most people with that sort of mental
condition can be found on streetcorners mumbling things to themselves
and occasionaly shouting incomprehensible stuff. And the Salvation Army
homeless shelter does not provide internet access AFAIK.
Eric Bohlman - 05 Aug 2005 22:59 GMT
> What I find amazing is that the psychiatric disorder with which the
> maker(s) of whale.to are obviously afflicted does not interfere with
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and occasionaly shouting incomprehensible stuff. And the Salvation
> Army homeless shelter does not provide internet access AFAIK.

Actually, paranoid schizophrenics are often quite functional in areas that
aren't directly affected by their delusions.  The "streetcorner people"
you see are most likely "dual diagnosis," i.e. they suffer from chronic
substance-abuse problems (particularly alcoholism) in addition to
psychosis.  They're not really representative of most psychotics.
David Wright - 07 Aug 2005 04:47 GMT
>> What I find amazing is that the psychiatric disorder with which the
>> maker(s) of whale.to are obviously afflicted does not interfere with
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>substance-abuse problems (particularly alcoholism) in addition to
>psychosis.  They're not really representative of most psychotics.

 "I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in
 poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are
 apparently doing quite well for themselves." - Emo Philips

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
Rich.@. - 07 Aug 2005 04:51 GMT
>  "I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in
>  poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are
>  apparently doing quite well for themselves." - Emo Philips

Why be intrigued? They have/had wealthy parents:-))

Aloha,

Rich


-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

Best defense to logic is ignorance
Vashti - 07 Aug 2005 11:00 GMT
> >  "I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live
> >  in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who
> >  are apparently doing quite well for themselves." - Emo Philips
>
> Why be intrigued? They have/had wealthy parents:-))

I'm guessing some of the 77% also had wealthy parents... not all
wealthy people will take care of their mentally ill family or the
mentally ill refuse their help. One of our local homeless guys,
Pedro, was the son of an ambassador. A few times per year a fancy
car would collect him and some days later he'd be back on the street
cleaner, shaved, with a new haircut and clothes. I no longer see him
around so either he's dead or he's finally off the street... he'd
been there for over 10 years.

Vashti
john - 06 Aug 2005 23:23 GMT
"JohnDoe" <dont@spam.me> wrote in message news:42f31079$0$22994

> What I find amazing is that the psychiatric disorder with which the
> maker(s) of whale.to are obviously afflicted does not interfere with
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and occasionaly shouting incomprehensible stuff. And the Salvation Army
> homeless shelter does not provide internet access AFAIK.

No argument, I see
JohnDoe - 08 Aug 2005 07:51 GMT
> "JohnDoe" <dont@spam.me> wrote in message news:42f31079$0$22994
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> No argument, I see

Hey, you know what, you're absolutely right. I really have no argument,
and frankly, I don't think anyone does, that'll change your paranoid
mind. So why should I even try?
john - 09 Aug 2005 15:52 GMT
"JohnDoe" <dont@spam.me> wrote in message news:42f700e0$0$22997
> Hey, you know what, you're absolutely right. I really have no argument,
> and frankly, I don't think anyone does, that'll change your paranoid
> mind. So why should I even try?

You can't try with no argument, but you are obviously too dim to realise
that.

john

"A paranoid is someone who knows a little of what's going on."--William
Burroughs http://www.whale.to/vaccine/propaganda3.html
David Wright - 10 Aug 2005 21:38 GMT
>> Sadly, the children killed by the actions of John Scudamore and Dawn
>> Winkler don't have a chance to "get a life".
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>prove as measles deaths had declined by 99.4% before vaccination, yes 99.4%.
>Yet the MMR vaccine KILLS all the time.

Actually, it it barely does -- VAERS gets a half-dozen such reports
per year (note that those are *reports*, not confirmed cases).
Measles used to kill more than that in the US every year, even though
nitwits like John don't believe it's ever fatal.

John is, however, lying as per usual.  Measles does kill a LOT of
children in the Third World.  Yes, that's mostly due to malnutrition,
but a malnourished dead child is just as dead as a well-nourished
dead child.

John, of course, displays a marvelous level of cognitive dissonance by
asserting both that autism is caused by MMR and that it's caused by
thimerosal.  I wish autism would make up its mind.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and
     natural things that money can buy."
                                       -- Steve Martin
Peter Bowditch - 10 Aug 2005 23:18 GMT
>>> Sadly, the children killed by the actions of John Scudamore and Dawn
>>> Winkler don't have a chance to "get a life".
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>asserting both that autism is caused by MMR and that it's caused by
>thimerosal.  I wish autism would make up its mind.

Loon Ray Gallup from The Autism Autoimmunity Project has stated that
there can be no doubt that MMR caused his child's autism, and he even
goes on to ask "What else could it be?". As this implies a rejection
of the thimerosal hypothesis, I wrote to him to ask for his help in
fighting the anti-thimerosal liars. He didn't respond.
Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

LadyLollipop - 11 Aug 2005 02:24 GMT
<snip ALL belittling of John>

>>>These are just some of the thousands killed by vaccines
>>>http://www.whale.to/vaccines/deaths.html  then we have the hundreds of
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> of the thimerosal hypothesis, I wrote to him to ask for his help in
> fighting the anti-thimerosal liars. He didn't respond.

    Jan   Apr 11 2003, 2:56 pm     show options

           Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
           From: jdrew63...@aol.com (Jan) - Find messages by this author
           Date: 11 Apr 2003 19:56:26 GMT
           Local: Fri, Apr 11 2003 2:56 pm
           Subject: Re: What is Conveniently Forgotten About The MMR
           Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse

     http://www.iom.edu/IOM/IOMHome.nsf/Pages/MMR+Autism+Summary

     (gone, big surprise?

     Though the MMR-autism question might
     ***appear to be resolved,***

     science is always a work in progress; a conclusion is only as good as
the
     methods of the analysis. The epidemiological studies, traditional
public health
     tools used to examine the risk factors for a disease on a population
level,
     were at a disadvantage here because there is little variation in
exposure to
     MMR since children in most developed countries are vaccinated
similarly.

     ***Furthermore, the difficulties in diagnosing and determining the
exact onset
     of autism in children make it difficult to design appropriate studies
and
     compare the results from those studies.***

     The committee acknowledges they could

     **not rule out another possibility***--that MMR vaccine could
contribute to ASD
     in a small number of children--

     ***because existing epidemiological tools may not have enough
precision to
     detect the occurrence of rare effects like ASD.***

     "Attention should be given to how the material is perceived and used
by those
     with the right and desire to know--

     ***the parents of children about to be immunized or those who believe
their
     child has been adversely affected," the committee says. "Direct input
from
     parents and other stakeholders would be invaluable in conducting a
systematic
     and effective evaluation of current communication tools."***
john - 11 Aug 2005 10:05 GMT
"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message

> Loon Ray Gallup from The Autism Autoimmunity Project has stated that
> there can be no doubt that MMR caused his child's autism, and he even
> goes on to ask "What else could it be?". As this implies a rejection
> of the thimerosal hypothesis, I wrote to him to ask for his help in
> fighting the anti-thimerosal liars. He didn't respond.

Moron, it has escaped your tiny brain that mercury causes autism, and so
does MMR, but they give both vaccines together

"As a clinician, my current belief which guides my practice with these
children is that any child given the HepB vaccination at birth and
subsequent boosters along with DPT has received unacceptable levels of
neurotoxin in the form of the ethyl mercury in the thimerosal preservative
used in the vaccine. In any child with a genetic immune susceptibility
(probably about one in six) this sets off a series of events that injure the
brain-gut-immune system. By the time they are ready to receive the MMR
vaccination, their immune system is so impaired in a great number of these
children that the triple vaccine cannot be handled by the now dysfunctional
immune system and they begin their obvious descent into the autistic
spectrum disorder."---Jaquelyn McCandless, M.D
Peter Bowditch - 11 Aug 2005 10:55 GMT
>"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>immune system and they begin their obvious descent into the autistic
>spectrum disorder."---Jaquelyn McCandless, M.D

Ah, yes! The dear Dr Mccandless who won Quote of the Year in 2002 for
her disgusting lie about mercury "pouring out of" autistic children
while she was stealing money from their parents.

You have to produce something much better than that piece of slime
mold if you want me to believe in the lies.
Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

LadyLollipop - 11 Aug 2005 12:54 GMT
>>"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> You have to produce something much better than that piece of slime
> mold if you want me to believe in the lies.

Ah yes! Sombody else to trash by one who has NO MEDICAL TRANING..

By Peter Bowditch, Slime; who writes slime.
============

Jaquelyn McCandless, M.D

Certified by American Board of Psychiatry & Neurology

http://newdiets.com/Writings/Dr._McCandless.shtml

http://tinyurl.com/ccg9y

<slime snipped>
David Wright - 11 Aug 2005 17:00 GMT
>>"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>You have to produce something much better than that piece of slime
>mold if you want me to believe in the lies.

McCandless, who is so ignorant she couldn't think of any drugs other
than antibiotics that will cure a disease.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and
     natural things that money can buy."
                                       -- Steve Martin
john - 12 Aug 2005 11:47 GMT
"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
> Ah, yes! The dear Dr Mccandless who won Quote of the Year in 2002 for
> her disgusting lie about mercury "pouring out of" autistic children
> while she was stealing money from their parents.
>
> You have to produce something much better than that piece of slime
> mold if you want me to believe in the lies.

I prefer an MD over your lies, or an autism expert:

"The evidence that vaccines are a major cause of the increase comes from a
number of directions. One direction that's been largely ignored are the
laboratory studies. There are at least seven laboratory studies, clinical
studies, of blood, cerebral, spinal fluid, biopsies of autistic children
which show huge differences between autistic children and normal children in
terms of the presence of things like measles vaccine virus in their
intestinal tract, for example, or their neurons. So, there's one line of
evidence.  Another, of course, is that we have data from thousands of
parents who testify, often with videotapes and photographs and eyewitness
reports, that their kid was perfectly normal. And they can demonstrate it,
as I say, very conclusively with tapes until after the vaccine. The kid
retreated into autism. There's just converging evidence from many, many
directions."-- (Nov 2002) Bernard Rimland PhD
http://www.whale.to/m/rimland9.html

You can't believe the truth, anyway.
D. C. Sessions - 11 Aug 2005 04:22 GMT
> and, for example, measles vaccine has never saved one life that you can
> prove as measles deaths had declined by 99.4% before vaccination, yes 99.4%.
> Yet the MMR vaccine KILLS all the time.

In 1964, the USA had 458,083 measles cases and 421 deaths from measles.
Are you suggesting that the natural rate of cases would be
458,083/(1-0.994)=76,347,166 cases?  It seems unlikely, since
the birth cohort for that year would have been only about
2,000,000.

Alternately, perhaps you're suggesting that the case mortality
is naturally (421/458,083)/(1-.994)=0.153 or about 15%.  One
death in seven cases?

Please explain.

Signature

begin signature.exe
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?

john - 11 Aug 2005 10:09 GMT
> > and, for example, measles vaccine has never saved one life that you can
> > prove as measles deaths had declined by 99.4% before vaccination, yes 99.4%.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Please explain.

Who cares about case mortality, especially when measles incidence is down to
vaccinators, if you want to see some interesting case mortality see how
smallpox vaccination increased it dramatically
http://www.whale.to/a/case.html

Measles deaths declined by 99.4% by my calc
http://www.whale.to/m/measlesdeaths1.html  before vax, which is kind of a
kills the vax argument
 
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