Medical Forum / General / Alternative / November 2005
Barrett uses disbarred attorney as Publicist ...
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Ilena Rose - 29 Jul 2005 21:12 GMT Here's what the Supreme Court of New York said about quack/healthfraud publicist Probert's legal status:
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/sandraprobert.htm
Like his Handler, the dubious and oft discredited Barrett ... Marla (one of the many, many stage namee he uses), is "biased and unworthy of credibility."
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/quackbustersvsilena.htm
Mark Probert - 29 Jul 2005 22:16 GMT Contrary to what KARLa ROVEnthal claimed, this is not from the esteemed Dr. Stephen Barrett, but from court documents filed in this case. She can whine and stamp her tootsies all day while swinging from a vine in the jungles of Costa Rica, but, the fact is, Barrett had nothing to do with this case.
Bolen, being Bolen, required no assistance in jumping into a cesspool with his mouth wide open.
KARLa has done the same.
Splash!
Tough.
And, if KARLa ROVEnthal does not like it...
TOO DAMN BAD!
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO Civil Action No. 04-CV-1849-MSK-OES CAVITAT MEDICAL TECHNOLOGIES, INC., Plaintiff and Counterclaim-Defendant, AND ROBERT J. JONES, Counterclaim-Defendant, v. AETNA, INC., Defendant and Counterclaim-Plaintiff.
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AETNA'S RESPONSE TO PLAINTIFFS' OBJECTIONS TO ORDERS RE: BARATZ DEPOSITION TRANSCRIPT
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Comes now Defendant, Aetna, Ine. ("Aetna"), and respectfully requests that the Court overrule Plaintiff's Objections To Orders Re: Baratz Deposition Transcript ("Plaintiff's Objections"), and would show as follows:
I. INTRODUCTION AND SUMMARY In seeking unsupervised disclosure of non-public pretrial discovery taken in this case, Cavitat relies upon an inapplicable legal standard for public access to public trial proceedings. Cavitat's argument ignores the Supreme Court authority giving trial court's broad discretion to deny access to pretrial civil discovery for II cause II shown. The magistrate found cause and minimally required those 'who wish to use (or misuse)
Dr. Baratz's deposition to appear in this Court, state their reasons, and subject themselves to the Court's oversight and discipline. The Magistrate's decision was more than reasonable, and, on this record, Cavitat is powerless to reverse it.
Unlike Cavitat's unsupported allegations, the record shows that Magistrate Schlatter did not abuse his discretion in placing limits on the use of Dr. Baratz's deposition:
Dr. Baratz's testimony is not subject to disclosure as an expert because, in this case, he was not deposed as an expert. He is a third party fact witness that Cavitat accused of racketeering and crimes without any basis in fact or substantial justification. In Dr. Baratz's deposition, Cavitat's counsel made no effort to establish his allegations that Dr. Baratz was part of a racketeering enterprise with Aetna. Instead, Cavitat sought discovery concerning malpractice lawsuits and dental disciplinary proceedings in which Dr. Baratz has or might be opposite dentists who treat patients outside evidence-based, scientifically valid standards of care for medicine and dentistry. Cavitat's own records, produced only after two court orders mandating their disclosure, establish beyond peradventure that Cavitat is using this proceeding for the improper purpose of attacking dental boards targeting its customers. Part of that cadre of practitioners is funding or coordinating this lawsuit against Aetna, and they use the services of Tim Bolen, a "paid troublemaker," and self-styled “crisis manager" engaged by "alternative medicine" practitioners to attack witnesses like Dr. Baratz and interfere with medical and dental boards. That same Tim Bolen posted a false, defamatory, and sensationalistic account of the deposition of Dr. Stephen Barrett, another witness in this case, on the internet within a couple of hours of it having occurred, all intended to intimidate Dr. Baratz, whose testimony was to occur two days later. Cavitat's counsel first claimed on the record that he had "nothing to do" with Mr. Bolen, all the while resisting discovery of records concerning the Cavitat legal fund showing that Bolen is in fact a "partner" and "consultant" in the Cavitat lawsuit. The truth became known only after Magistrate Schlatter ordered production of the documents. The lawyers and their clients to whom Cavitat wishes to disclose Dr. Baratz's deposition are associated with Bolen and others of his ilk who have attacked and attempted to intimidate Dr. Baratz and other witnesses for years. Indeed, Cavitat seeks to disclose the deposition to lawyers who have in the past and or presently use Bolen's "services." Under the correct legal standard, this Court obviously has power protect itself, the parties, or the witness from the potential misuse of these proceedings. It is certainly not asking much to require the alternative dentistry bar to appear in this Court and convince the Court that they are "on the level" before subjecting the Court, Dr. Baratz and Aetna to more abuse.
II. FACTUAL BACKGROUND A. Dr. Baratz Is An Innocent Third Party At Whom Cavitat Leveled Its Conclusory RICO Allegations That Have Since Been Dismissed When Cavitat brought this claim, it complained that it was the victim of a criminal enterprise that was aligned to destroy its ability to try and profit from a condition called Neuralgia Inducing Cavitational Osteonecrosis ("NICO").1 Cavitat sells its device to "biologic dentists" who purport to detect and treat this contorversial condition. Dr. Baratz is a physician who has testified on behalf of the Government with respect to practitioners who do not follow an evidence-based, scientific approach to medicine or dentistry.2 Without a shred of factual support Cavitat accused him of being part of a criminal enterprise with Aetna.3
This Court held, among other things, that the Plaintiffs' allegations concerning the supposed RICO enterprise were insufficient and conclusory. The Plaintiff failed and refused to amend the allegations and the claims were dismissed. Prior to the dismissal, however, Aetna deposed Dr. Baratz and the other alleged "RICO" conspirators. That testimony demonstrated that there was never any substantial justification for the Plaintiffs' claims, especially the contention that Aetna was part of a criminal enterprise with Dr. Baratz or anyone else. Indeed, as even a cursory pretrial investigation would have established, Dr. Baratz had no substantial connection to Aetna prior to Cavitat's allegations.4
Tellingly, the Plaintiff never even tried to look for a fig leaf to cover its naked racketeering allegations. Cavitat's counsel essentially made no effort to establish any connection between the third parties like Dr. Baratz and Aetna. Cavitat's counsel only nquired about Aetna iI, two questions on one page of the deposition for a grand total of 40 seconds.5 Instead, Cavitat attempted to obtain information from Dr. Baratz about ongoing regulatory investigations relating to non-party practitioners.6 Even the witness complained that the questions had nothing to do with this case or his alleged nvolvement with Aetna.7 Beyond being irrelevant, Cavitat's proxy was to misuse discovery and court proceedings to attempt to intimidate witnesses like Dr. Baratz who dare to testify in Government investigations and court proceedings.
B. Tim Bolen, Cavitat's Partner, Is A "Paid Trouble Maker" Who Has Tried To Intimidate Dr. Baratz And Influence His Testimony During the course of the third-party depositions, a sensationalistic posting appeared on the Internet, which clearly were designed to abuse and intimidate the testimony of upcoming witnesses, including Dr. Baratz.8 The author of the statements is Tim Bolen.
Cavitat concedes that Jones, its president, discussed with Mr. Bolen after the deposition of Dr. Stephen Barrett on April 14, 2005, which resulted in Mr. Bolen posting an attack account of the deposition on the internet. Cavitat's counsel claimed this attack was indeed false and that he had nothing to do with Tim Bolen and that he is a "loose cannon" (who) "gets out there and says whatever he wants on the internet. . . ."9 The truth, however, is that Bolen is a part-owner of the instant litigation against Aetna,10 a matter only disclosed after this Court required disclosure of records concerning the Cavitat Legal Fund.11 Despite Cavitat's effort to distance itself from Bolen, the Cavitat Legal Fund agreement and associated documents describes him in II partnership" with Cavitat as its public relations agent and consultant.12
Cavitat's allegations concerning Mr. Bolen in its objections are not of record nor under oath. Dr. Baratz's testimony concerning Mr. Bolen is. Bolen is no "journalist" and Cavitat did not argue below (much less prove) that he was. Bolen is a "paid trouble maker" and self-styled" crisis manager" for practitioners being investigated by medical or dental boards.13 He has defamed and threatened Dr. Baratz by posting statements about him on the internet.14 He accosted Dr. Baratz in a courthouse where Dr. Baratz was prepared to testify, after which he gave Df. Baratz the" one finger salute" that was captured in a photograph.15 Dr. Baratz, who is Jewish, takes particular and understandable offense to Mr. Bolen's attempt to equate him as a Nazi who is due for a "health cafe Nuremberg."16 Mr. Bolen recently bragged that "Bobbie [Dr. Baratz] is terribly afraid of me - mentally and physically - and he should be."17 Mr. Bolen wrote this after traveling across the country to attend a hearing at which Dr. Baratz was testifying as a state expert witness. Cavitat wishes to provide this deposition to the parties who hired Mr. Bolen to do this.
C. Aetna Demanded And The Plaintiffs Acquiesced In An Agreement To Allow The Court To Regulate Disclosure Prevent Abuse Of The Deposition Given what had occurred, Dr. Baratz’s counsel and Aetna demanded some form of protection for witnesses like Dr. Baratz who dutifully provided testimony in response to this Court's subpoenas. The agreement of counsel, which Cavitat did not supply to the Magistrate in its initial request speaks for itself:
MR. SCHUH [Dr. Baratz's Counsel]: Mr. Reid, are you going to have contact directly or indirectly with anyone who is going to post anything about this deposition on the Internet?
MR. REID: I will have contact with my client and explain what happened during the proceedings, if my client is interested. I have assured counsel last time and I will do it again that I will instruct my client not to discuss what happened here today with anyone, including Mr. Bolen specifically.
MR. SCHUH: And do 1 take it you are representing that you personally will do nothing other than communicate with your client that would causc directly or indirectly anything about this deposition to be posted on the Internet?
MR. REID: Yes, and without a court order or getting a stipulation by counselor anything like that, sure.
MR SCHUH: Thank you for that representation.
MR. REID: I'm not going to say that forevermore this deposition will be secret. I think we have court proceedings here, and it will be used—I'm ensured it'll be used in motions filed with the Court and so forth. This is not subject to any confidentiality order. I think the question here is whether or not we have another situation like that that occurred with Mr. Bolen, and I understand your concern; and I assure you I will not participate in that. If it's disclosed to anyone, I will let you—I think I have your card or at least have your address. If you let me know; I'll make sure that you and defense counsel knows before itls disclosed and have an opportunity to object if you wish to object.18
Although Cavitat later and purposefully kept Dr. Baratz's counsel out of the loop when he sua sponte19 approached the Magistrate seeking permission to disclose the deposition, Aetna objected. The Magistrate did not abuse its discretion in regulating how the deposition could be used.
D. The Magistrate Was Justified In Concluding That There Was Danger In Unregulated Disclosure Of Dr. Baratz's Deposition The Magistrate had substantial basis to conclude that Cavitat's proposed disclosure of Dr. Baratz's deposition raised the dangers the parties had sought to guard against in making their agreement. Dr. Baratz has testified at other proceedings in which dentists used Mr. Bolen's "services" to try to combat his testimony or intimidate its source.20 That nexus is also present here.
Consistent with the improper pattern of abuse against Dr. Baratz in the past, one of the persons to whom Cavitat's counsel wishes to disclose the deposition is counsel for Dr. Shankland who admits he is being investigated by the State of Ohio. Dr. Shankland is a member of Cavitat's so-called board of scientific advisers. He is represented by Mr. Recker, to whom Cavitat's counsel also wishes to give a "courtesy copy" of the deposition. Mr. Recker, who Cavitat has previously listed as a Rule 26 fact witness, has previously posted depositions and exhibits relating to dental-related disdplinary actions in which Dr. Baratz appeared as a state expert witness.21 Mr. Recker is now obviously asking for a copy of the deposition to do precisely that again.
Likewise, Ms. Hunter, the attorney who hired Mr. Bolen to sit at counsel table as her consultant because Dr. Baratz was supposedly "terribly afraid" of him, intends to reciprocate for Mr. Bolen's" service" by providing him a copy of the deposition so that he can ply his trade. In fact, Cavitat's attempt to disclose the deposition of Dr. Baratz is further evidence that its suit against Aetna is for the improper purpose of attacking state dental boards who are investigating its customers.22
All the Magistrate's order requires is that anyone having a legitimate need for Dr. Baratz's deposition first allow the court to balance that need against the risk that Dr. Baratz will again be subjected to abuse that no witness should have to bear. Under the law, the Magistrate's decision presents no reversible error.
III. ARGUMENTS AND AUTHORITIES A. Pretrial Civil Discovery Is Not Public And Protection May Be Granted For Cause Cavitat is trying to create error in the Magistrate's decision by erecting an artificially high standard of review. Cavitat relies upon an order of this Court in another proceeding denying a motion to seal court filed summary judgment exhibits—i.e. the actual trial proceedings of the court.23 An altogether different and much lower standard applies to protecting participants in pretrial civil discovery. In fact, the very order on which Cavitat relies specifically recognizes that difference.24 Even though Cavitat's counsel was counsel of record in the case upon which he relies, Cavitat ignores the distinction drawn bv this Court.
"Pretrial depositions. . . are not public components of a civil trial." Seattle Times Co. v. Rhinehart, 467 U.S, 20, 33 (1984) (emphasis added). Such proceedings were not open to the public at common law, and, in general, they are conducted in private as a matter of modern practice. Id. Therefore, restraints placed on discovered, but not yet admitted, information are not a restriction on a traditionally public source of information. Id.
Much of the information that surfaces during pretrial discovery, especially as it is conducted by Cavitat, is "unrelated, or only tangentially related to the underlying cause of action." Id. There is thus" a significant potential for abuse," Id. Because of the liberality of pretrial discovery, trial courts have" ample powers" to issue protective orders conferred by Rule 26(c). Seattle Times, 467 U.s. at 34 & n. 20. Public access to discovery materials may be limited upon a showing of good cause. FED. R. CN. p, 26(c); Taylor D. Solvay Pharmaceuticals, 223 F.R.D. 544, 547 (D. Colo. 2004) (citing Seattle Times).
A magistrate's decision to order such protection is not reversed absent an abuse of his or her" considerable discretion." Taylor, 223 F.R.D. at 547 (citing Otero v. Buslee, 695 F.2d 1244,1247 (10th Cir.1982)). No such abuse can be shown here.
B. The Magistrate Did Not Ahuse His Discretion In Finding Cause On This Record Cavitat's argument that expert testimony is subject to disclosure holds no water because Dr. Baratz was not deposed as an expert. He is a third party fact witness who was minding his own business until Cavitat, without substantial justification, falsely accused him of being part of a criminal enterprise. Dr. Baratz's opinions and testimony in unrelated actions against dentists accused of being scoundrels or charlatans is not a proper subject of discovery in this action. Moreover, had Cavitat restricted itself to seeking discovery that was minimally relevant to its accusations of criminal conduct, Dr. Baratz's testimony would have little or no relevance to third parties with which Cavitat seeks to share the deposition.
Next, Cavitat's argument that none of the material is confidential or privileged is simply irrelevant. No such privilege need be shown in order to protect discovery from misuse and witnesses from harassment. The rules under which the Court acts to protect litigants and third parties from the misuse of civil discovery specifically speak to the prevention of "annoyance" "embarrassment" and" oppression." Seattle Times, 467 U.S. at 35 n.21. The parties here obviously recognized the potential for such misuse if, as happened before, false and sensationalistic accounts of the deposition were posted on the internet by the likes of Mr. Bolen. Thus, they agreed that it shouldn not be disseminated in such a manner that it would directly or indirectly make its way to the world wide web. The Magistrate did not abuse his discretion in finding that the proposed disclosure would be in violation of this agreement.
Further, in the absence of an agreement, this Court is not impotent to protect witnesses.like Dr. Baratz from "annoyance," "embarrassment" and "oppression." Seattle Times, 467 US at 35 n.21. Bolen is in league with several other lawyers for biologic dentists, and the Magistrate's ruling does little more than bring these lawyers within the disciplinary ambit of this Court before increasing the potential for misuse of the Court's discovery products. If Cavitat had compelling evidence that disclosure would not lead to the annoyance, embarrassment, oppression and witness tampering that already appear on this record, it could have supplied that evidence at the time that arguments were made. Taylor, 223 F.R.D. at 547. Absent that"the Magistrate Judge did not abuse [his] considerable discretion," Id.
IV. CONCLUSION Cavitat has shown no abuse of discretion by the Magistrate's decision to restrict unsupervised access to the deposition of a witness who has been harassed in the past by Cavitat's associates and is threatened with such harassment in the future. Beyond that, Cavitat did not even cite the controlling legal standard for sealing pretrial discovery, but partially quoted an order, from a case in which its counsel participated, that recognized the inapplicability of the standard on which it relies. There was and is no substantial justification for Cavitat to challenge the Magistrate's decision, and more to the point, Cavitat's actions in taking discovery about third party disciplinary proceedings and attempting to disseminate that information to third parties shows that this suit and Cavitat's method of maintaining it are not substantially justified.
Footnotes Complaint and Demand for Jury Trial at 2-3. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 258-267. Complaint and Demand for Jury Trial at 2-3, 7 DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 17-19, 21-23, 25. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 170. See, e.g., DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 107, 110, 112, 121, 133, 150, 164. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 252. See DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep,) at 33-34. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 264, 267;ivlay 23rd, 2005 Hearing Transcript, p, 12, Docket No. 67. Ex. 1. (Subscription Agreement awarding Bolen shares in return for his "public relations and consulting services.") See DKT# 60, DKT# 61 and DKT# 84 and DKT# 87. Ex. 2 (Correspondence from Cavitat to Bolen describing his contibutions to the "partnership." DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 260. See also Ex. 3 where Bolen describes himself as a "crisis manager." DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 262, 267. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 259. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 33-34. See Ex. 3. Also available at http://www.quackpotwatch.org. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 278-79 (emphasis added). Lest there be any doubt, Aetna has in fact designated the deposition as confidential under the terms of this Court's protective order. At the May 23rd hearing, Cavitat strategically elected to make this Application in oral form, ex parte to Dr. Baratz and his counsel and did not provide the Court with the transcript at that hearing. Cavitat now claims the Court was not sufficiently informed to make a judicial determination. Aetna did however properly represent the agreement of the parties and provided the Court with the relevant transcript citations. See Ex. 5. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 258-267. See website http//dclslaw.com/State Board/MedicalBoard/Kadile/Kadile.shtml (accessed 6-3-05). See Ex. 5 (Cavitat letter to Cavitat Legal Fund members advising of tactic to name state boards as defendants in "the Aetna legal action"). See Plaintiffs Objections at 8, See Cause No. 03-2589, DKT# 43 at 3 ("Documents subject to discovery are not customarily filed with the Court and thus are not available to the public. As to those documents which are filed with the Court, the parties are not in a position to finally determine whether the public has an interest in them,"). Cavitat's counsel is well aware of this distinction because he was counsel of record in Cause No. 03-2589. Respectfully submitted,
John B. Shely Texas Bar No. 18215300 Kendall M. Gray Texas Bar No. 007907282 ANDREWS KURTH LLP 600 Travis, Suite 4200 Houston, Texas 77002 (713) 220-4200
John M. Palmeri Franz Hardy WHITE AND STEELE, P.C. 950 17th Street, Suite 2100 Denver, Colorado 80202 (303) 296-2828 (303)
John M. Elliott James C. Crumlish III Mark J. Schwemler ELLIOTT GREENLEAF & SIEDZIKOWSKI, P.C. 925 Harvest Drive P.O . Box 3010 Blue Bell, Pennsylvania 19422 Telephone: (215) 977-1000
ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANT AETNA INC. CERTIFICATION OF SERVICE
I hereby certify that on July 13, 2005, I electronically filed the foregoing with the Clerk of Court using the CM/ECF system which will send notification of such filing to the following e-mail addresses:
areid@waltergerash.com
________________________
John B. Shely Attorney for Defendant Andrews Kurth LLP 600 Travis, Suite 4200 Houston, Texas 77002 (713) 220-4105
jurimed2@yahoo.com - 31 Jul 2005 16:12 GMT LIBEL WARNING - Welcome to the world of litigation. We eagerly, now, seek your presence in a deposition regarding your knowledge, your statements, your claims, and sources of information, in the Cavitat v. Aetna case.
It looks to me, after your statements, that you'll likely be added as a defendant...
Make it easy for me, by return email, give me your real name and address for legal service.
Don't be a sissy, and hide behind a fake name. It's time for you to come out and play with the big kids, little boy...
I'm waiting.
Tim Bolen
Nana Weedkiller - 31 Jul 2005 16:35 GMT > LIBEL WARNING - Welcome to the world of litigation. We eagerly, now, > seek your presence in a deposition regarding your knowledge, your [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Tim Bolen Hi, Timmy Sugar. How's that Cavitat deal holding up?
http://www.casewatch.org/civil/cavitat/depomotion.shtml
Evidence that Tim Bolen was a partner in the Cavitat Legal Fund http://www.casewatch.org/civil/cavitat/exhibit1.pdf
Cavitat's plan to attack state dental boards. http://www.casewatch.org/civil/cavitat/exhibit5.pdf B. Tim Bolen, Cavitat's Partner, Is A "Paid Trouble Maker" Who Has Tried To Intimidate Dr. Baratz And Influence His Testimony During the course of the third-party depositions, a sensationalistic posting appeared on the Internet, which clearly were designed to abuse and intimidate the testimony of upcoming witnesses, including Dr. Baratz.8 The author of the statements is Tim Bolen.
Cavitat concedes that Jones, its president, discussed with Mr. Bolen after the deposition of Dr. Stephen Barrett on April 14, 2005, which resulted in Mr. Bolen posting an attack account of the deposition on the internet. Cavitat's counsel claimed this attack was indeed false and that he had nothing to do with Tim Bolen and that he is a "loose cannon" (who) "gets out there and says whatever he wants on the internet. . . ."9 The truth, however, is that Bolen is a part-owner of the instant litigation against Aetna,10 a matter only disclosed after this Court required disclosure of records concerning the Cavitat Legal Fund.11 Despite Cavitat's effort to distance itself from Bolen, the Cavitat Legal Fund agreement and associated documents describes him in II partnership" with Cavitat as its public relations agent and consultant.12
Ilena Rose - 31 Jul 2005 16:38 GMT Probert knew well the world of litigation .... until the New York Supreme Court disbarred him ... and he became yet another ugly stalker and harasser for the Ratbags from Quackwatch.
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/sandraprobert.htm
http://www.ratbags.com/posse/whoarewe.htm#Probert (many aliases)
http://www.ratbags.com/posse/whoarewe.htm#Nidiffer (Willa Nidiffer aka Nana Weedkiller)
Ilena Rose - 31 Jul 2005 18:28 GMT Probert knew well the world of litigation .... until the New York Supreme Court disbarred him ... and he became yet another ugly stalker and harasser for the Ratbags from Quackwatch.
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/sandraprobert.htm
http://www.ratbags.com/posse/whoarewe.htm#Probert (many aliases)
http://www.ratbags.com/posse/whoarewe.htm#Nidiffer (Willa Nidiffer aka Nana Weedkiller)
LadyLollipop - 31 Jul 2005 18:06 GMT That is his real name. He will not give you his address. He is nothing but a trouble maker.
Jan
> LIBEL WARNING - Welcome to the world of litigation. We eagerly, now, > seek your presence in a deposition regarding your knowledge, your [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Tim Bolen Peter Bowditch - 31 Jul 2005 23:57 GMT >That is his real name. He will not give you his address. He is nothing but a >trouble maker. > >Jan Thank you, Jan. I could not have described Tim Bolen better myself.
>> LIBEL WARNING - Welcome to the world of litigation. We eagerly, now, >> seek your presence in a deposition regarding your knowledge, your [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Tim Bolen
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Mark Probert - 01 Aug 2005 00:35 GMT > That is his real name. He will not give you his address. He is nothing but a > trouble maker. Nyah Nyah, takes one to know one.
Peter Bowditch - 31 Jul 2005 23:56 GMT >LIBEL WARNING - Welcome to the world of litigation. We eagerly, now, >seek your presence in a deposition regarding your knowledge, your [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Tim Bolen What is your physical address for the delivery of this information, Mr Bolen? A post office box will not do, as I have found from experience that you may not be in the box when someone arrives there, even when advance notice of the visit has been given to you.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Mark Probert - 01 Aug 2005 00:34 GMT > LIBEL WARNING - Welcome to the world of litigation. We eagerly, now, > seek your presence in a deposition regarding your knowledge, your [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Tim Bolen YAWN.
Mark Probert - 01 Aug 2005 00:42 GMT > LIBEL WARNING - Welcome to the world of litigation. We eagerly, now, > seek your presence in a deposition regarding your knowledge, your [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Tim Bolen Dear Mr. Bolen:
I know that you are aware of the famous case of Barrett vs. Rosenthal, et al, as you are one of the et al's.
According to the decision regarding Ms. Rosenthal's reposting of your hate filled libelous diattibe against the esteemed Dr. Barrett, Ms. Rosenthal is protected under the law. She was exercising her right of free speech, and Barrett's illconceived efforts to stop her through litigation was shut down by the courts.
Under that concept, I, too, am exercising my right of free speech.
If that distrubs you, please re-read our Constitution and the case of Barrett vs. Rosenthal for more information.
Should you wish to have any more specific information, please feel free to ask. If you want private information, you may request it in email and make sure that you include your physical address.
jurimed2@yahoo.com - 01 Aug 2005 13:20 GMT Abuse@cv.net:
I have concerns about emails originating from 68.194.64.219 that are defamatory. The email indicates that abuse@cv.net may be a practical solution. That seems to be you. What we need to know, if this is in fact one of your IP addresses, is where we can send the subpoena requiring the identity of this individual. Below I have copied the offending email:
Tim Bolen
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine, alt.support.breast-implant, talk.politics.medicinemis, misc.health.alternative
From: Mark Probert <markprob...@lumbercartel.com> - Find messages by this author
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:03:45 -0400
Local: Fri, Jul 29 2005 8:03 am
Subject: Bolen totally discredited
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | View Thread | Show original
| Report Abuse Contrary to what KARLa ROVEnthal claimed, this is not from the esteemed
Dr. Stephen Barrett, but from court documents filed in this case.
Cavitat, a quackery laden company, is seeking to save its skin after they tried to used Bolen, a self-admitted hired gun and paid shill, to promote a quack device.
They lost and Aetna has turned around and is biting them.
When you kick a sleeping corc, you get bit. Tough.
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO Civil Action No. 04-CV-1849-MSK-OES CAVITAT MEDICAL TECHNOLOGIES, INC., Plaintiff and Counterclaim-Defendant, AND ROBERT J. JONES, Counterclaim-Defendant, v. AETNA, INC., Defendant and Counterclaim-Plaintiff.
Peter Bowditch - 02 Aug 2005 00:48 GMT >Abuse@cv.net: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Tim Bolen There appears to be some bullshit coming from 209.179.198.162 as well, Mr Bolen. Should we complain to Earthlink about it, as the messages seem to be coming from someone why was part of an attempt to extort money from an insurance company, first by fraud and then by legal action?
I will be speaking to one of the partners at Farr, Gough and Dye later today and I will ask for an opinion.
>Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine, alt.support.breast-implant, >talk.politics.medicinemis, misc.health.alternative [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >AETNA, INC., >Defendant and Counterclaim-Plaintiff.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
LadyLollipop - 02 Aug 2005 01:43 GMT >>Abuse@cv.net: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > money from an insurance company, first by fraud and then by legal > action?
> I will be speaking to one of the partners at Farr, Gough and Dye later > today and I will ask for an opinion. While you are there, ask them, if you are libel for the many lies on your website?
>>Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine, alt.support.breast-implant, >>talk.politics.medicinemis, misc.health.alternative <snip>
The Difference Between a Liar and an Honest Man:
First the LIAR.
Peter Bowditch.
Dr Death
I was criticised recently for lack of balance in my choices of which forms and instances of medical fraud to feature here. The specific complaint was that I didn't have a page on this site about Dr Jayant Patel, late of Bundaberg Hospital in Queensland, Australia. My first response was that I don't have a page about every quack or charlatan in the world, not even all those whose web sites are listed here. My second response was that Dr Patel does not appear to have a web site himself, and nobody seems to have one supporting him. My third point was that Dr Patel was not practising quackery but was just a dangerously incompetent doctor. That wasn't good enough, and it was claimed that by not having something to say about him I was condoning his behaviour and I was exhibiting a double standard by criticising quacks but not members of something called "evil organised medicine". In fact, I was protecting him by not calling him a quack and it was all part of some form of cover-up.
To people outside Australia (and those within who have been in a coma or otherwise disconnected from the world for the last few weeks) the name Dr Jayant Patel might mean nothing, but he was a doctor who managed to get a job at Bundaberg Hospital by lying about his qualifications and overseas experience. It now seems that he may have been directly responsible for the deaths of at least 87 patients. He may not have deliberately killed them, but his negligence and ignorance did. His hiring has revealed a huge hole in the recruitment practices of whoever it was that let him have a job, and the extent of the damage has shown that better methods of whistleblowing are required. Dr Patel has fled the country and nobody knows where he is.
Quackery supporters are using Dr Patel as an example of the dangers of real medicine as compared to the absolute safety of alternatives. I have been challenged to name a single alternative practitioner who has killed 87 people. The facts are that real medicine has methods to deal with disasters like this, but alternative medicine hasn't even any useful system of adverse event reporting. There is a government enquiry under way, the recruitment and reporting problems are being identified and corrected, Dr Patel will be charged with criminal offences (manslaughter at least, possibly even murder), his extradition to Australia will be sought as soon as he is located, and he is looking forward to a long time behind bars. This was not a case of medical fraud, but one of a failure of management. It is a tragedy and a disgrace, but something is being done to stop it happening again.
One delightful irony of this whole matter is that Dr Patel apparently said that it was not necessary to wash hands between patients because germs mean nothing. It is rather bizarre to see people holding these comments up as examples of the incorrect thinking of real doctors when those same people accept chiropractic, naturopathy, energy medicine, acupuncture, homeopathy and other magical medical paradigms in which pathogenic organisms play no part. But then, hypocrisy is never short on the ground when quacks start criticising medicine.
=====
Now Rod, The HONEST Man.
WOW what a difference!!!
Peter,
I would hope that you would point out that it took over two years to finally get some action. (7 deaths per month) But then this Guy has been in the system for over 20 years. Not the first time for this it appears.
Now some of the things that really occurred were:
1.Early in the piece, Hospital Staff were addressed by the State Medical Board and told that reporting internal matters to the Union could see them in Jail.
FEAR 2.When the issue was placed before Hospital Management their response was to award Dr Patel "Employee of the Month"
JEER 3.Just before the announcement in State Parliament, a new contract was drawn up by the Hospital Board for 5 years at $8000 per week for Dr Patel.
REWARD 4.It is on the record that the Hospitals Income had soared from the activity of Dr Patel and as such he was highly regarded by the Medical system.
GREED
5.The State Medical Board paid for Dr Patel's flight out of Australia.
HIDE
6.Dr Patel has a record that goes back to 1994 http://asia.news.yahoo.com/050520/ap/d8a6pvn83.html
TOTAL INCOMPETENCE
7.Apparently Dr Patel's record has been on Archives since Mid 90's which just proves that nobody believes what is on the Internet.
IGNORANCE
8. When the matter was bought up in Parliament what exactly did the AMA request in writing back in March 2005. "A full apology and retraction" !!
THREATS
What really is at stake here is not just a rogue Dr but rather a Rogue system that has allowed this to occur. The system went much further than Hospital Administration and its Staff, it went to the State Medical Board, The AMA. Finally the people who believed in what is right rather than who won through. (The Whistleblowers)
WHAT'S RIGHT TRIUMPHS
Gee I am having trouble accepting that this is not "Organised Medicine" at its worst. A Chain of highly qualified people from Anaesthetists, Doctors, Nurses, Boards, Government Representatives Morticians, patients past Drs, family and friends of the patients, family and friends of the hospital workers and of course the major watch dog of the AMA. Just how many people do you think was in that "Management" chain. You know that rotten old management chain that probably held about a couple of hundred people that actually knew and were not going to do anything.
Your reference to better methods of whistle could perhaps be termed a little better. Perhaps we could call these people genuinely concerned citizens (Guardian Angels more appropriately)that have to endure enormous pressure to do what is right.
Is anyone offering them fame, money and flights ?
No, I thought not. But Organised Medicine did for Dr Patel.
But of course you knew all this.
Rod
Peter Bowditch - 08 Aug 2005 23:37 GMT >>>Abuse@cv.net: >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >While you are there, ask them, if you are libel for the many lies on your >website? If I did, they would probably first tell me that while I could attract a liability by committing libel, the words "libel" and "liable" are not synonyms (and typing one instead of the other is not a typographical error either). The next thing they would say is that they have carefully examined my site (which is what I pay them for) and have found no lies, only opinion which differs from the opinion of others. (As an aside, Malcolm Dye is related to Shane Dye, the jockey. It is a joke around the F,G&D offices that Malcolm's speciality is writing riders for contracts.)
Of course, if you could actually point out a lie or two they might be interested. I know that someone has said that I am lying by expressing the opinion that using the tragic death of a child to bash conventional medicine on 97 occasions in a single month is bashing conventional medicine, but legal opinion is that that person has cried "liar" so many times that nobody will take the warning seriously if a real lie turns up. (This has been part of the common law for many years - cf "The Shepherd's Boy and the Wolf" opinion by Mr Justice Aesop.)
>>>Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine, alt.support.breast-implant, >>>talk.politics.medicinemis, misc.health.alternative >>> ><snip> > >The Difference Between a Liar and an Honest Man: <snip repeated story where the opinion that supporters of alternative medicine exploit the evil deeds of a bad doctor to smear conventional medicine is rebutted by pointing out that the evil deeds of the bad doctor represent the activities of conventional medicine>
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
LadyLollipop - 09 Aug 2005 02:12 GMT >>>>Abuse@cv.net: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > and have found no lies, only opinion which differs from the opinion of > others. Then, they would be an dishonest as you. There most certainly are lies, NOT opinions.
Such as:
Do show us where Dr. Haley's fans said he has apologized!
Three Dead Children (if it is still there has THREE lies NOT opinions)
Just WHERE was it claimed that you were condoning Dr. Patel behavior?????
Just WHERE did anyone say you were *protecting* him ot it was some kind of cover up?????
Just WHERE has anyone one said there was absolute safety in alternative??
(As an aside, Malcolm Dye is related to Shane Dye, the jockey.
> It is a joke around the F,G&D offices that Malcolm's speciality is > writing riders for contracts.) > > Of course, if you could actually point out a lie or two they might be > interested. I just did.
I know that someone has said that I am lying by expressing
> the opinion that using the tragic death of a child to bash > conventional medicine on 97 occasions in a single month is bashing > conventional medicine, <snip diversion>
You just lied again.
It was indeed not to bash conventional medicine, it was REALITY,it was to show the peice meal system of reporting and the fact the procedure should have never been used. It was an effort on the part of Dateline to reduce the many mistakes and needless deaths we have each year..
YOU LIED.
You used the word demonized.
When in fact, these are my words.
They did the right thing and my heart goes out to the doctor, and all those involved. The parents in turn also did the right thing and dropped the lawsuit. I was indeed very sad for everyone.
NO demonizing.
You are a PROVEN LIAR.
>>>>Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine, alt.support.breast-implant, >>>>talk.politics.medicinemis, misc.health.alternative [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > medicine is rebutted by pointing out that the evil deeds of the bad > doctor represent the activities of conventional medicine> Thanks for that EXCELLENT example of your *deceiving*.
What it points out is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
You are a LIAR a DECEIVER, VERY, VERY, VERY, DISHONEST with NO MORALS.
Thank you Rod, and God Bless you!.
Restored:
The Difference Between A Liar And An Honest Man First the LIAR.
Peter Bowditch.
Dr Death
I was criticised recently for lack of balance in my choices of which forms and instances of medical fraud to feature here. The specific complaint was that I didn't have a page on this site about Dr Jayant Patel, late of Bundaberg Hospital in Queensland, Australia. My first response was that I don't have a page about every quack or charlatan in the world, not even all those whose web sites are listed here. My second response was that Dr Patel does not appear to have a web site himself, and nobody seems to have one supporting him. My third point was that Dr Patel was not practising quackery but was just a dangerously incompetent doctor. That wasn't good enough, and it was claimed that by not having something to say about him I was condoning his behaviour and I was exhibiting a double standard by criticising quacks but not members of something called "evil organised medicine". In fact, I was protecting him by not calling him a quack and it was all part of some form of cover-up.
To people outside Australia (and those within who have been in a coma or otherwise disconnected from the world for the last few weeks) the name Dr Jayant Patel might mean nothing, but he was a doctor who managed to get a job at Bundaberg Hospital by lying about his qualifications and overseas experience. It now seems that he may have been directly responsible for the deaths of at least 87 patients. He may not have deliberately killed them, but his negligence and ignorance did. His hiring has revealed a huge hole in the recruitment practices of whoever it was that let him have a job, and the extent of the damage has shown that better methods of whistleblowing are required. Dr Patel has fled the country and nobody knows where he is.
Quackery supporters are using Dr Patel as an example of the dangers of real medicine as compared to the absolute safety of alternatives. I have been challenged to name a single alternative practitioner who has killed 87 people. The facts are that real medicine has methods to deal with disasters like this, but alternative medicine hasn't even any useful system of adverse event reporting. There is a government enquiry under way, the recruitment and reporting problems are being identified and corrected, Dr Patel will be charged with criminal offences (manslaughter at least, possibly even murder), his extradition to Australia will be sought as soon as he is located, and he is looking forward to a long time behind bars. This was not a case of medical fraud, but one of a failure of management. It is a tragedy and a disgrace, but something is being done to stop it happening again.
One delightful irony of this whole matter is that Dr Patel apparently said that it was not necessary to wash hands between patients because germs mean nothing. It is rather bizarre to see people holding these comments up as examples of the incorrect thinking of real doctors when those same people accept chiropractic, naturopathy, energy medicine, acupuncture, homeopathy and other magical medical paradigms in which pathogenic organisms play no part. But then, hypocrisy is never short on the ground when quacks start criticising medicine.
=====
Now Rod, The HONEST Man.
WOW what a difference!!!
Peter,
I would hope that you would point out that it took over two years to finally get some action. (7 deaths per month) But then this Guy has been in the system for over 20 years. Not the first time for this it appears.
Now some of the things that really occurred were:
1.Early in the piece, Hospital Staff were addressed by the State Medical Board and told that reporting internal matters to the Union could see them in Jail.
FEAR 2.When the issue was placed before Hospital Management their response was to award Dr Patel "Employee of the Month"
JEER 3.Just before the announcement in State Parliament, a new contract was drawn up by the Hospital Board for 5 years at $8000 per week for Dr Patel.
REWARD 4.It is on the record that the Hospitals Income had soared from the activity of Dr Patel and as such he was highly regarded by the Medical system.
GREED
5.The State Medical Board paid for Dr Patel's flight out of Australia.
HIDE
6.Dr Patel has a record that goes back to 1994 http://asia.news.yahoo.com/050520/ap/d8a6pvn83.html
TOTAL INCOMPETENCE
7.Apparently Dr Patel's record has been on Archives since Mid 90's which just proves that nobody believes what is on the Internet.
IGNORANCE
8. When the matter was bought up in Parliament what exactly did the AMA request in writing back in March 2005. "A full apology and retraction" !!
THREATS
What really is at stake here is not just a rogue Dr but rather a Rogue system that has allowed this to occur. The system went much further than Hospital Administration and its Staff, it went to the State Medical Board, The AMA. Finally the people who believed in what is right rather than who won through. (The Whistleblowers)
WHAT'S RIGHT TRIUMPHS
Gee I am having trouble accepting that this is not "Organised Medicine" at its worst. A Chain of highly qualified people from Anaesthetists, Doctors, Nurses, Boards, Government Representatives Morticians, patients past Drs, family and friends of the patients, family and friends of the hospital workers and of course the major watch dog of the AMA. Just how many people do you think was in that "Management" chain. You know that rotten old management chain that probably held about a couple of hundred people that actually knew and were not going to do anything.
Your reference to better methods of whistle could perhaps be termed a little better. Perhaps we could call these people genuinely concerned citizens (Guardian Angels more appropriately)that have to endure enormous pressure to do what is right.
Is anyone offering them fame, money and flights ?
No, I thought not. But Organised Medicine did for Dr Patel.
But of course you knew all this.
Rod
> Peter Bowditch jurimed2@yahoo.com - 01 Aug 2005 13:23 GMT DC Sessions (dcs@lumbercartel.com):
I find that you are the owner of "lumbercartel.com." I'm looking for the identity of someone who calls themselves markprobert@lumbercartel.com. Can you help me with this?
Tim Bolen
Peter Bowditch - 02 Aug 2005 00:49 GMT >DC Sessions (dcs@lumbercartel.com): > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Tim Bolen I once tried to visit someone named "Tim Bolen", but when I arrived at his post box address there was nobody in the office.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
LadyLollipop - 02 Aug 2005 01:44 GMT "Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
<snip>
news:a6dte15iarm9hm01jc7kfrhbf2i6obnalu@4ax.com...
>>DC Sessions (dcs@lumbercartel.com): >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >>Tim Bolen Ilena Rose - 02 Aug 2005 17:06 GMT Ratbagging in America ...
>I once tried to visit someone named "Tim Bolen", but when I arrived at
>his post box address there was nobody in the office. Hmmm ... leave us see what The Ratbaggers King Quack says about 'post office boxes""
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/quackbustersvsilena.htm
Quoth Stephen F. Barrett, writing in AMA News on August 25, 1975, describing the Lehigh Valley Committee Against Health Fraud:
"By working "undercover" using assumed names and box numbers, we've gotten all sorts of information and publications other groups, like the medical societies, haven't been able to lay their hands on.
...Really, we're a bunch of guerrillas - we're not a large group, there are about 40 members, but we're the only such group in the country."
Ilena Rose - 19 Nov 2005 16:02 GMT Ratbagging in America ...
>I once tried to visit someone named "Tim Bolen", but when I arrived at
>his post box address there was nobody in the office. Hmmm ... leave us see what The Ratbaggers King Quack says about 'post office boxes""
www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/quackbustersvsilena.htm
Quoth Stephen F. Barrett, writing in AMA News on August 25, 1975, describing the Lehigh Valley Committee Against Health Fraud:
"By working "undercover" using assumed names and box numbers, we've gotten all sorts of information and publications other groups, like the medical societies, haven't been able to lay their hands on.
...Really, we're a bunch of guerrillas - we're not a large group, there are about 40 members, but we're the only such group in the country."
jurimed2@yahoo.com - 01 Aug 2005 13:26 GMT Markprobert@lumbercartel.com:
Are any of these, below, your address we can use for legal service"?
1 TULIP PL MERRICK, NY 11566
5 OAKWOOD AVE MERRICK NY
2652 ROSEBUD AVE MERRICK, NY 11566
Tim Bolen
Peter Bowditch - 02 Aug 2005 00:50 GMT >Markprobert@lumbercartel.com: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Tim Bolen What is your physical address for the delivery of legal papers, Mr Bolen? The process server will be very annoyed if he has the same experience as I had when I visited your office and found nobody in the post box.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
LadyLollipop - 02 Aug 2005 01:46 GMT "Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
<snip>
news:88dte15ng06qoap4siprbqvlfurjdeau43@4ax.com...
>>Markprobert@lumbercartel.com: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >>Tim Bolen David Wright - 02 Aug 2005 05:11 GMT >Markprobert@lumbercartel.com: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >MERRICK, NY >11566 You know, Mark, if Bolen keeps up this sort of harassment, and his groundless threats to sue, you might be able to pick up a few bucks by suing *him*. That'd be so cool.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and natural things that money can buy." -- Steve Martin
JohnDoe - 02 Aug 2005 07:47 GMT > Markprobert@lumbercartel.com: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Tim Bolen You seem to have some time on your hands mr. Bolen. Ran out of clients?
LadyLollipop - 02 Aug 2005 08:54 GMT >> Markprobert@lumbercartel.com: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You seem to have some time on your hands mr. Bolen. Ran out of clients? There seems to be something wrong with the M on your keyboard, John, chicken to post your name.
cathyb - 02 Aug 2005 13:40 GMT > >> Markprobert@lumbercartel.com: > >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > There seems to be something wrong with the M on your keyboard, John, chicken > to post your name. Is this post an example of Lollipop's much-vaunted christianity?
Does anyone else remember telling their kids about the childishness and nastiness of the 'you're chicken' game? And Lollipop criticising name-calling?
And is this actually an example of Lollipop, the least literate poster anywhere, criticising someone for missing a shift key?
Wow.
Cathy
JohnDoe - 02 Aug 2005 13:46 GMT >>>>Markprobert@lumbercartel.com: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Cathy And of all people, she should understand keyboard problems. After all, she has plenty problems with the l, i, a and r on hers. They always come out as caps.
LadyLollipop - 02 Aug 2005 16:55 GMT >>>>>Markprobert@lumbercartel.com: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > has plenty problems with the l, i, a and r on hers. They always come out > as caps. Oh, deara, the lies are rampant.
Liars believing other liars.
This thread turned into a Jan thing.
Who wooda thunk it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Mark Probert - 02 Aug 2005 22:33 GMT >>>>>>Markprobert@lumbercartel.com: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Liars believing other liars. Glad to see youhad your keyboard fixed.
> This thread turned into a Jan thing. > > Who wooda thunk it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Not you. Your "thinker" is still broken.
LadyLollipop - 02 Aug 2005 16:47 GMT >> >> Markprobert@lumbercartel.com: >> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Is this post an example of Lollipop's much-vaunted christianity Gee, I dunno.
Could you please post the much-vaunted????
Do post an example!
> Does anyone else remember telling their kids about the childishness and > nastiness of the 'you're chicken' game? Do you?
Surely not!
After all, as a mother, I thought you taught your kids that what they did was someone else's fault, ah Cathy??
cathyb Jun 12, 6:05 pm
Subject: Re: MULIPLE POSTS USING NAME TO SLAM ALERT
> And blame me for Mark Thorson's multiple postings. For which you are clearly to blame.
Cathyb is totally discredited.
Give them enough rope,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
<snip>
> Cathy Mark Probert - 30 Jul 2005 21:35 GMT Contrary to what KARLa ROVEnthal claimed, this is not from the esteemed Dr. Stephen Barrett, but from court documents filed in this case. She can whine and stamp her tootsies all day while swinging from a vine in the jungles of Costa Rica, but, the fact is, Barrett had nothing to do with this case.
Bolen, being Bolen, required no assistance in jumping into a cesspool with his mouth wide open.
KARLa has done the same.
Splash!
Tough.
And, if KARLa ROVEnthal does not like it...
TOO DAMN BAD!
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO Civil Action No. 04-CV-1849-MSK-OES CAVITAT MEDICAL TECHNOLOGIES, INC., Plaintiff and Counterclaim-Defendant, AND ROBERT J. JONES, Counterclaim-Defendant, v. AETNA, INC., Defendant and Counterclaim-Plaintiff.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AETNA'S RESPONSE TO PLAINTIFFS' OBJECTIONS TO ORDERS RE: BARATZ DEPOSITION TRANSCRIPT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comes now Defendant, Aetna, Ine. ("Aetna"), and respectfully requests that the Court overrule Plaintiff's Objections To Orders Re: Baratz Deposition Transcript ("Plaintiff's Objections"), and would show as follows:
I. INTRODUCTION AND SUMMARY In seeking unsupervised disclosure of non-public pretrial discovery taken in this case, Cavitat relies upon an inapplicable legal standard for public access to public trial proceedings. Cavitat's argument ignores the Supreme Court authority giving trial court's broad discretion to deny access to pretrial civil discovery for II cause II shown. The magistrate found cause and minimally required those 'who wish to use (or misuse)
Dr. Baratz's deposition to appear in this Court, state their reasons, and subject themselves to the Court's oversight and discipline. The Magistrate's decision was more than reasonable, and, on this record, Cavitat is powerless to reverse it.
Unlike Cavitat's unsupported allegations, the record shows that Magistrate Schlatter did not abuse his discretion in placing limits on the use of Dr. Baratz's deposition:
Dr. Baratz's testimony is not subject to disclosure as an expert because, in this case, he was not deposed as an expert. He is a third party fact witness that Cavitat accused of racketeering and crimes without any basis in fact or substantial justification. In Dr. Baratz's deposition, Cavitat's counsel made no effort to establish his allegations that Dr. Baratz was part of a racketeering enterprise with Aetna. Instead, Cavitat sought discovery concerning malpractice lawsuits and dental disciplinary proceedings in which Dr. Baratz has or might be opposite dentists who treat patients outside evidence-based, scientifically valid standards of care for medicine and dentistry. Cavitat's own records, produced only after two court orders mandating their disclosure, establish beyond peradventure that Cavitat is using this proceeding for the improper purpose of attacking dental boards targeting its customers. Part of that cadre of practitioners is funding or coordinating this lawsuit against Aetna, and they use the services of Tim Bolen, a "paid troublemaker," and self-styled “crisis manager" engaged by "alternative medicine" practitioners to attack witnesses like Dr. Baratz and interfere with medical and dental boards. That same Tim Bolen posted a false, defamatory, and sensationalistic account of the deposition of Dr. Stephen Barrett, another witness in this case, on the internet within a couple of hours of it having occurred, all intended to intimidate Dr. Baratz, whose testimony was to occur two days later. Cavitat's counsel first claimed on the record that he had "nothing to do" with Mr. Bolen, all the while resisting discovery of records concerning the Cavitat legal fund showing that Bolen is in fact a "partner" and "consultant" in the Cavitat lawsuit. The truth became known only after Magistrate Schlatter ordered production of the documents. The lawyers and their clients to whom Cavitat wishes to disclose Dr. Baratz's deposition are associated with Bolen and others of his ilk who have attacked and attempted to intimidate Dr. Baratz and other witnesses for years. Indeed, Cavitat seeks to disclose the deposition to lawyers who have in the past and or presently use Bolen's "services." Under the correct legal standard, this Court obviously has power protect itself, the parties, or the witness from the potential misuse of these proceedings. It is certainly not asking much to require the alternative dentistry bar to appear in this Court and convince the Court that they are "on the level" before subjecting the Court, Dr. Baratz and Aetna to more abuse.
II. FACTUAL BACKGROUND A. Dr. Baratz Is An Innocent Third Party At Whom Cavitat Leveled Its Conclusory RICO Allegations That Have Since Been Dismissed When Cavitat brought this claim, it complained that it was the victim of a criminal enterprise that was aligned to destroy its ability to try and profit from a condition called Neuralgia Inducing Cavitational Osteonecrosis ("NICO").1 Cavitat sells its device to "biologic dentists" who purport to detect and treat this contorversial condition. Dr. Baratz is a physician who has testified on behalf of the Government with respect to practitioners who do not follow an evidence-based, scientific approach to medicine or dentistry.2 Without a shred of factual support Cavitat accused him of being part of a criminal enterprise with Aetna.3
This Court held, among other things, that the Plaintiffs' allegations concerning the supposed RICO enterprise were insufficient and conclusory. The Plaintiff failed and refused to amend the allegations and the claims were dismissed. Prior to the dismissal, however, Aetna deposed Dr. Baratz and the other alleged "RICO" conspirators. That testimony demonstrated that there was never any substantial justification for the Plaintiffs' claims, especially the contention that Aetna was part of a criminal enterprise with Dr. Baratz or anyone else. Indeed, as even a cursory pretrial investigation would have established, Dr. Baratz had no substantial connection to Aetna prior to Cavitat's allegations.4
Tellingly, the Plaintiff never even tried to look for a fig leaf to cover its naked racketeering allegations. Cavitat's counsel essentially made no effort to establish any connection between the third parties like Dr. Baratz and Aetna. Cavitat's counsel only nquired about Aetna iI, two questions on one page of the deposition for a grand total of 40 seconds.5 Instead, Cavitat attempted to obtain information from Dr. Baratz about ongoing regulatory investigations relating to non-party practitioners.6 Even the witness complained that the questions had nothing to do with this case or his alleged nvolvement with Aetna.7 Beyond being irrelevant, Cavitat's proxy was to misuse discovery and court proceedings to attempt to intimidate witnesses like Dr. Baratz who dare to testify in Government investigations and court proceedings.
B. Tim Bolen, Cavitat's Partner, Is A "Paid Trouble Maker" Who Has Tried To Intimidate Dr. Baratz And Influence His Testimony During the course of the third-party depositions, a sensationalistic posting appeared on the Internet, which clearly were designed to abuse and intimidate the testimony of upcoming witnesses, including Dr. Baratz.8 The author of the statements is Tim Bolen.
Cavitat concedes that Jones, its president, discussed with Mr. Bolen after the deposition of Dr. Stephen Barrett on April 14, 2005, which resulted in Mr. Bolen posting an attack account of the deposition on the internet. Cavitat's counsel claimed this attack was indeed false and that he had nothing to do with Tim Bolen and that he is a "loose cannon" (who) "gets out there and says whatever he wants on the internet. . . ."9 The truth, however, is that Bolen is a part-owner of the instant litigation against Aetna,10 a matter only disclosed after this Court required disclosure of records concerning the Cavitat Legal Fund.11 Despite Cavitat's effort to distance itself from Bolen, the Cavitat Legal Fund agreement and associated documents describes him in II partnership" with Cavitat as its public relations agent and consultant.12
Cavitat's allegations concerning Mr. Bolen in its objections are not of record nor under oath. Dr. Baratz's testimony concerning Mr. Bolen is. Bolen is no "journalist" and Cavitat did not argue below (much less prove) that he was. Bolen is a "paid trouble maker" and self-styled" crisis manager" for practitioners being investigated by medical or dental boards.13 He has defamed and threatened Dr. Baratz by posting statements about him on the internet.14 He accosted Dr. Baratz in a courthouse where Dr. Baratz was prepared to testify, after which he gave Df. Baratz the" one finger salute" that was captured in a photograph.15 Dr. Baratz, who is Jewish, takes particular and understandable offense to Mr. Bolen's attempt to equate him as a Nazi who is due for a "health cafe Nuremberg."16 Mr. Bolen recently bragged that "Bobbie [Dr. Baratz] is terribly afraid of me - mentally and physically - and he should be."17 Mr. Bolen wrote this after traveling across the country to attend a hearing at which Dr. Baratz was testifying as a state expert witness. Cavitat wishes to provide this deposition to the parties who hired Mr. Bolen to do this.
C. Aetna Demanded And The Plaintiffs Acquiesced In An Agreement To Allow The Court To Regulate Disclosure Prevent Abuse Of The Deposition Given what had occurred, Dr. Baratz’s counsel and Aetna demanded some form of protection for witnesses like Dr. Baratz who dutifully provided testimony in response to this Court's subpoenas. The agreement of counsel, which Cavitat did not supply to the Magistrate in its initial request speaks for itself:
MR. SCHUH [Dr. Baratz's Counsel]: Mr. Reid, are you going to have contact directly or indirectly with anyone who is going to post anything about this deposition on the Internet?
MR. REID: I will have contact with my client and explain what happened during the proceedings, if my client is interested. I have assured counsel last time and I will do it again that I will instruct my client not to discuss what happened here today with anyone, including Mr. Bolen specifically.
MR. SCHUH: And do 1 take it you are representing that you personally will do nothing other than communicate with your client that would causc directly or indirectly anything about this deposition to be posted on the Internet?
MR. REID: Yes, and without a court order or getting a stipulation by counselor anything like that, sure.
MR SCHUH: Thank you for that representation.
MR. REID: I'm not going to say that forevermore this deposition will be secret. I think we have court proceedings here, and it will be used—I'm ensured it'll be used in motions filed with the Court and so forth. This is not subject to any confidentiality order. I think the question here is whether or not we have another situation like that that occurred with Mr. Bolen, and I understand your concern; and I assure you I will not participate in that. If it's disclosed to anyone, I will let you—I think I have your card or at least have your address. If you let me know; I'll make sure that you and defense counsel knows before itls disclosed and have an opportunity to object if you wish to object.18
Although Cavitat later and purposefully kept Dr. Baratz's counsel out of the loop when he sua sponte19 approached the Magistrate seeking permission to disclose the deposition, Aetna objected. The Magistrate did not abuse its discretion in regulating how the deposition could be used.
D. The Magistrate Was Justified In Concluding That There Was Danger In Unregulated Disclosure Of Dr. Baratz's Deposition The Magistrate had substantial basis to conclude that Cavitat's proposed disclosure of Dr. Baratz's deposition raised the dangers the parties had sought to guard against in making their agreement. Dr. Baratz has testified at other proceedings in which dentists used Mr. Bolen's "services" to try to combat his testimony or intimidate its source.20 That nexus is also present here.
Consistent with the improper pattern of abuse against Dr. Baratz in the past, one of the persons to whom Cavitat's counsel wishes to disclose the deposition is counsel for Dr. Shankland who admits he is being investigated by the State of Ohio. Dr. Shankland is a member of Cavitat's so-called board of scientific advisers. He is represented by Mr. Recker, to whom Cavitat's counsel also wishes to give a "courtesy copy" of the deposition. Mr. Recker, who Cavitat has previously listed as a Rule 26 fact witness, has previously posted depositions and exhibits relating to dental-related disdplinary actions in which Dr. Baratz appeared as a state expert witness.21 Mr. Recker is now obviously asking for a copy of the deposition to do precisely that again.
Likewise, Ms. Hunter, the attorney who hired Mr. Bolen to sit at counsel table as her consultant because Dr. Baratz was supposedly "terribly afraid" of him, intends to reciprocate for Mr. Bolen's" service" by providing him a copy of the deposition so that he can ply his trade. In fact, Cavitat's attempt to disclose the deposition of Dr. Baratz is further evidence that its suit against Aetna is for the improper purpose of attacking state dental boards who are investigating its customers.22
All the Magistrate's order requires is that anyone having a legitimate need for Dr. Baratz's deposition first allow the court to balance that need against the risk that Dr. Baratz will again be subjected to abuse that no witness should have to bear. Under the law, the Magistrate's decision presents no reversible error.
III. ARGUMENTS AND AUTHORITIES A. Pretrial Civil Discovery Is Not Public And Protection May Be Granted For Cause Cavitat is trying to create error in the Magistrate's decision by erecting an artificially high standard of review. Cavitat relies upon an order of this Court in another proceeding denying a motion to seal court filed summary judgment exhibits—i.e. the actual trial proceedings of the court.23 An altogether different and much lower standard applies to protecting participants in pretrial civil discovery. In fact, the very order on which Cavitat relies specifically recognizes that difference.24 Even though Cavitat's counsel was counsel of record in the case upon which he relies, Cavitat ignores the distinction drawn bv this Court.
"Pretrial depositions. . . are not public components of a civil trial." Seattle Times Co. v. Rhinehart, 467 U.S, 20, 33 (1984) (emphasis added). Such proceedings were not open to the public at common law, and, in general, they are conducted in private as a matter of modern practice. Id. Therefore, restraints placed on discovered, but not yet admitted, information are not a restriction on a traditionally public source of information. Id.
Much of the information that surfaces during pretrial discovery, especially as it is conducted by Cavitat, is "unrelated, or only tangentially related to the underlying cause of action." Id. There is thus" a significant potential for abuse," Id. Because of the liberality of pretrial discovery, trial courts have" ample powers" to issue protective orders conferred by Rule 26(c). Seattle Times, 467 U.s. at 34 & n. 20. Public access to discovery materials may be limited upon a showing of good cause. FED. R. CN. p, 26(c); Taylor D. Solvay Pharmaceuticals, 223 F.R.D. 544, 547 (D. Colo. 2004) (citing Seattle Times).
A magistrate's decision to order such protection is not reversed absent an abuse of his or her" considerable discretion." Taylor, 223 F.R.D. at 547 (citing Otero v. Buslee, 695 F.2d 1244,1247 (10th Cir.1982)). No such abuse can be shown here.
B. The Magistrate Did Not Ahuse His Discretion In Finding Cause On This Record Cavitat's argument that expert testimony is subject to disclosure holds no water because Dr. Baratz was not deposed as an expert. He is a third party fact witness who was minding his own business until Cavitat, without substantial justification, falsely accused him of being part of a criminal enterprise. Dr. Baratz's opinions and testimony in unrelated actions against dentists accused of being scoundrels or charlatans is not a proper subject of discovery in this action. Moreover, had Cavitat restricted itself to seeking discovery that was minimally relevant to its accusations of criminal conduct, Dr. Baratz's testimony would have little or no relevance to third parties with which Cavitat seeks to share the deposition.
Next, Cavitat's argument that none of the material is confidential or privileged is simply irrelevant. No such privilege need be shown in order to protect discovery from misuse and witnesses from harassment. The rules under which the Court acts to protect litigants and third parties from the misuse of civil discovery specifically speak to the prevention of "annoyance" "embarrassment" and" oppression." Seattle Times, 467 U.S. at 35 n.21. The parties here obviously recognized the potential for such misuse if, as happened before, false and sensationalistic accounts of the deposition were posted on the internet by the likes of Mr. Bolen. Thus, they agreed that it shouldn not be disseminated in such a manner that it would directly or indirectly make its way to the world wide web. The Magistrate did not abuse his discretion in finding that the proposed disclosure would be in violation of this agreement.
Further, in the absence of an agreement, this Court is not impotent to protect witnesses.like Dr. Baratz from "annoyance," "embarrassment" and "oppression." Seattle Times, 467 US at 35 n.21. Bolen is in league with several other lawyers for biologic dentists, and the Magistrate's ruling does little more than bring these lawyers within the disciplinary ambit of this Court before increasing the potential for misuse of the Court's discovery products. If Cavitat had compelling evidence that disclosure would not lead to the annoyance, embarrassment, oppression and witness tampering that already appear on this record, it could have supplied that evidence at the time that arguments were made. Taylor, 223 F.R.D. at 547. Absent that"the Magistrate Judge did not abuse [his] considerable discretion," Id.
IV. CONCLUSION Cavitat has shown no abuse of discretion by the Magistrate's decision to restrict unsupervised access to the deposition of a witness who has been harassed in the past by Cavitat's associates and is threatened with such harassment in the future. Beyond that, Cavitat did not even cite the controlling legal standard for sealing pretrial discovery, but partially quoted an order, from a case in which its counsel participated, that recognized the inapplicability of the standard on which it relies. There was and is no substantial justification for Cavitat to challenge the Magistrate's decision, and more to the point, Cavitat's actions in taking discovery about third party disciplinary proceedings and attempting to disseminate that information to third parties shows that this suit and Cavitat's method of maintaining it are not substantially justified.
Footnotes Complaint and Demand for Jury Trial at 2-3. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 258-267. Complaint and Demand for Jury Trial at 2-3, 7 DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 17-19, 21-23, 25. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 170. See, e.g., DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 107, 110, 112, 121, 133, 150, 164. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 252. See DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep,) at 33-34. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 264, 267;ivlay 23rd, 2005 Hearing Transcript, p, 12, Docket No. 67. Ex. 1. (Subscription Agreement awarding Bolen shares in return for his "public relations and consulting services.") See DKT# 60, DKT# 61 and DKT# 84 and DKT# 87. Ex. 2 (Correspondence from Cavitat to Bolen describing his contibutions to the "partnership." DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 260. See also Ex. 3 where Bolen describes himself as a "crisis manager." DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 262, 267. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 259. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 33-34. See Ex. 3. Also available at http://www.quackpotwatch.org. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 278-79 (emphasis added). Lest there be any doubt, Aetna has in fact designated the deposition as confidential under the terms of this Court's protective order. At the May 23rd hearing, Cavitat strategically elected to make this Application in oral form, ex parte to Dr. Baratz and his counsel and did not provide the Court with the transcript at that hearing. Cavitat now claims the Court was not sufficiently informed to make a judicial determination. Aetna did however properly represent the agreement of the parties and provided the Court with the relevant transcript citations. See Ex. 5. DKT# 66 (Baratz Dep.) at 258-267. See website http//dclslaw.com/State Board/MedicalBoard/Kadile/Kadile.shtml (accessed 6-3-05). See Ex. 5 (Cavitat letter to Cavitat Legal Fund members advising of tactic to name state boards as defendants in "the Aetna legal action"). See Plaintiffs Objections at 8, See Cause No. 03-2589, DKT# 43 at 3 ("Documents subject to discovery are not customarily filed with the Court and thus are not available to the public. As to those documents which are filed with the Court, the parties are not in a position to finally determine whether the public has an interest in them,"). Cavitat's counsel is well aware of this distinction because he was counsel of record in Cause No. 03-2589. Respectfully submitted,
John B. Shely Texas Bar No. 18215300 Kendall M. Gray Texas Bar No. 007907282 ANDREWS KURTH LLP 600 Travis, Suite 4200 Houston, Texas 77002 (713) 220-4200
John M. Palmeri Franz Hardy WHITE AND STEELE, P.C. 950 17th Street, Suite 2100 Denver, Colorado 80202 (303) 296-2828 (303)
John M. Elliott James C. Crumlish III Mark J. Schwemler ELLIOTT GREENLEAF & SIEDZIKOWSKI, P.C. 925 Harvest Drive P.O . Box 3010 Blue Bell, Pennsylvania 19422 Telephone: (215) 977-1000
ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANT AETNA INC. CERTIFICATION OF SERVICE
I hereby certify that on July 13, 2005, I electronically filed the foregoing with the Clerk of Court using the CM/ECF system which will send notification of such filing to the following e-mail addresses:
areid@waltergerash.com
________________________
John B. Shely Attorney for Defendant Andrews Kurth LLP 600 Travis, Suite 4200 Houston, Texas 77002 (713) 220-4105
David Wright - 30 Jul 2005 22:07 GMT >Contrary to what KARLa ROVEnthal claimed, this is not from the esteemed >Dr. Stephen Barrett, but from court documents filed in this case. She >can whine and stamp her tootsies all day while swinging from a vine in >the jungles of Costa Rica, but, the fact is, Barrett had nothing to do >with this case. Mark, now that you've made this multi-hundred line post a dozen times or so, I really think it's sufficient.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and natural things that money can buy." -- Steve Martin
Mark Probert - 30 Jul 2005 22:30 GMT >>Contrary to what KARLa ROVEnthal claimed, this is not from the esteemed >>Dr. Stephen Barrett, but from court documents filed in this case. She [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Mark, now that you've made this multi-hundred line post a dozen times > or so, I really think it's sufficient. You do not like my imitating Jan?
Sniff...there goes my next career on the stage...
David Wright - 30 Jul 2005 23:34 GMT >>>Contrary to what KARLa ROVEnthal claimed, this is not from the esteemed >>>Dr. Stephen Barrett, but from court documents filed in this case. She [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Sniff...there goes my next career on the stage... "You should be on the stage. I think there's one leaving town in half an hour."
Thank you, thank you, you've been a wonderful audience, try the veal and don't forget to tip your waiter.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and natural things that money can buy." -- Steve Martin
LadyLollipop - 31 Jul 2005 01:38 GMT >>>Contrary to what KARLa ROVEnthal claimed, this is not from the esteemed >>>Dr. Stephen Barrett, but from court documents filed in this case. She can [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You do not like my imitating Jan? Ummm.
He really was talking to YOU.
For once in your life take responsonsibility for YOUR behavoir.
<snip>
Mark Probert - 31 Jul 2005 15:42 GMT >>>>Contrary to what KARLa ROVEnthal claimed, this is not from the esteemed >>>>Dr. Stephen Barrett, but from court documents filed in this case. She can [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > He really was talking to YOU. So what? I was imitating you. Granted, it was a poor imitation since I was posting facts which were logically presented, but, nonetheless, I was imitating you.
> For once in your life take responsonsibility for YOUR behavoir. I just did. I took repsonsibility for a poor performance in imitating you.
As for you handing out that advice....
BWHAHAHAHAHAHA you hypicrite.
LadyLollipop - 31 Jul 2005 18:03 GMT >>>>>Contrary to what KARLa ROVEnthal claimed, this is not from the esteemed >>>>>Dr. Stephen Barrett, but from court documents filed in this case. She [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>> >>>You do not like my imitating Jan?
>> Ummm.
>> He really was talking to YOU. For once in your life take responsonsibility for YOUR behavior.
It is proven, Mark can't.
Get help.
<snip>
Mark Probert - 01 Aug 2005 00:22 GMT >>>>>>Contrary to what KARLa ROVEnthal claimed, this is not from the esteemed >>>>>>Dr. Stephen Barrett, but from court documents filed in this case. She [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Get help. I said that I took responsibility for a poor job of imitating you. I realize that I am a bad actor and take full responsibility for that.
As for you handing out advice about taking responsibility for ones own actions...
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That is probably the most hypocritical thing you say.
LadyLollipop - 01 Aug 2005 03:15 GMT >>>>>>>Contrary to what KARLa ROVEnthal claimed, this is not from the >>>>>>>esteemed Dr. Stephen Barrett, but from court documents filed in this [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I said that I took responsibility for a poor job of imitating you. <snip>
*I* have nothing to do do with it.
For once in your life take responsonsibility for *YOUR* behavior
Mark, now that you've made this multi-hundred line post a dozen times or so, I really think it's sufficient.
Mark Probert - 01 Aug 2005 14:30 GMT > For once in your life take responsonsibility for *YOUR* behavior > > Mark, now that you've made this multi-hundred line post a dozen times > or so, I really think it's sufficient. When you take responsibility for your own behavior.
LadyLollipop - 01 Aug 2005 23:12 GMT >> For once in your life take responsonsibility for *YOUR* behavior >> >> Mark, now that you've made this multi-hundred line post a dozen times >> or so, I really think it's sufficient. > > When you <snip> For once in your life take responsonsibility for *YOUR* behavior
Mark Probert - 02 Aug 2005 14:25 GMT >>> For once in your life take responsonsibility for *YOUR* behavior >>> >>>Mark, now that you've made this multi-hundred line post a dozen times >>>or so, I really think it's sufficient. >> >>When you <snip> What is the matter, Janny, cannot handle it when I say:
When you take responsibility for your own behavior.
> For once in your life take responsonsibility for *YOUR* behavior Yes, Jan, you do not take responsibility for your behavior.
Yes, you are a hypocrite.
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