Just watch *;*

Jan

Yes, unfortunately the term "troll" which has a very specific meaning
has become bastardized by many posters whenever they get angry at
someone and want to say something bad about them.

A troll is a person who posts for the sole purpose of getting a
response from others and has no real interest in having meaningful
discussion.

Aloha,

Rich

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

Best defense to logic is ignorance

An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious
arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in
email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion.
Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in
learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait

Richard H Jacobson.

Rich also wrote:

Note: The author of this message requested that it not be archived.
This message will be removed from Groups in 6 days (Aug 4, 1:03 pm).

A sign of a troll.

Jan

considering I have not mentioned mercury poisoning, not lied and there is no
hypocrisy, there will no reason for Rich to follow this post. Unless, of
course <GASP> Rich is a cyberstalker *;*
The proof is in the pudding:-)))))

* My primary intent is to expose her lies about mercury poisoning. If
Jan Drew posts 100 times about having mercury poisoning and I only
refute it say 30 times then there are 70 out of 100 that go unrefuted.
An unsuspecting lurker may read her claim and not read the refutal*

*My secondary intent is to discredit her
  by exposing her numerous lies and hypocrisy.*
 Aloha,

 Rich

"David Wright" <wright@l1000.prodigy.net> wrote in message

Hmm...  Did I miss the response to this "idiot's" curious observation Rich?

moo

If I thought Jan Drew was just a troll I would ignore her. Jan Drew is
not just a troll since her posts are not *designed* to get attention.
The *result* of her posts is to get attention but that is not her
purpose. Her purpose is to demonize conventional medicine while
providing propaganda in favor of alternative medicine. Jan would like
nothing more than to have all her detractors go away so she could spew
her nonsense. Sadly you and others are enabling her in this effort.

I notice that you never did answer my question about if you truly
believe that for all intents and purposes you are reading all of Jan's
posts because of those who cannot help but respond to her then why on
earth don't you kill file these posters if you really don't want to
read Jan's posts?? Is not being able to read some of the posts which
do not deal with Jan Drew *really* worth having to read ALL or most
all her posts??

PeterB OTOH is a troll who just wants to bait people into responding
to him. Just look at how he is trying to bait me while I just ignore
him. He keeps posting the same post over and over and over again in an
effort to get me to respond. If I am wrong about his motives then I am
sure that some of the other regulars will handle him without my help.
I intend just to ignore him.

Aloha,

Rich

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

Best defense to logic is ignorance

Actually, maybe he didn't and he was admitting that getting people
paranoid and ready to jump on those labeled as "pharma bloggers" is
exactly his strategy.

Your total lack of observation has been posted.

Things got ugly long ago, from your lying buddy that you are so eager to
believe

Things got ugly long ago.

From: Richard Jacobson (ric...@pixi.com)
Subject: Re: Effexor
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Date: 1995/04/02

I am not sure what you mean by too willing to accept the whole depression
diagnosis. I am also not sure what you mean when you say that you don't buy
the
your depression is due to something mental. Is not the fact that they keep
putting you on antidepressants evidence that they do NOT think it is just
something mental. After all the biochemical theory of depression is that
depression is due to a neurotransmitter imbalance and that the
antidepressants
correct that imbalance. Seems to me they are saying that your depression is
physical and not

****psychologic.***
==============================­­=============================­=
Notice how Richard is trying to compare Nazi war crimes with vaccinations.
The
sad thing is that Richard really sees little difference.

Yes but it is unfortunate when parents make decisions with limited
information
due to *****psychopathologic***** fears.

not wanting his kids vaccinated. It's against his religion.  :

him to
exercise it.  Arguing with him is useless as he is not interested in
scientific proof or anything other kind of proof for that matter.

Yes Richard it is *I* who has the myopic view of the world.How many times
have
I suggested that you read about biology and immunology to broaden your
horizons
and how many times haveyou ignored this completely. I also realize that
because
mathematics does not use double blind studies to prove its theories that you
think that this method could be applied to all things that we study. It is
quite difficult for you (despitehow worldly you think you are) to conceive
of
some things being amenable to double blind studies and some things not

Do some reading and you may learn something.

Absolutely fascinating Richard. So your understanding based upon the posts
is
that the ONLY place that your baby could possibly pick up this bacterium is
from sheep, cattle, other small animals and surgical operating theatres?
Perhaps the problem you have extends beyond the *****psychological********.

That is an interesting comment coming from someone who questions modern
medicine using a treatment before studies are done to demonstrate efficacy
and
safety. Well ***Big Al*****, conventionalmedical practice is NOT to jump on
every bandwagon but totest out theories before advocating their use.

Yes ***Big Al****, I realize that you don't agree with my interpretation of
the
statistics and think that I have _no business_ commenting of the numbers. I
will leave it up to the educated readers out thereto decide for themselves
*who* is manipulating *what*. It always strikes me as curious that those who
are so quick to accuse others of manipulation (especially without giving
specifics) are the ones who are really manipulating.

Sorry but I am going to continue to ask for evidence when I am in doubt
about a
treatment. Hope you can accept that my asking is not to be patronizing
(although I will acknowledge that some of my more humorous postings have had
a
patronizing tone tothem) or inflate my ego but instead to get information
that
I think is important instead of just trusting whatever someone decides to
post
here especially when the nature of the post is so seemingly definitive.

aloha,

Rich

It is quite clear to me that you are unhappy with my postsand feel that I am
being disingenuous with the group. Perhapsyou could share with me
specifically
what I have lied about.

Do  you notice that whenever someone does not have anything useful to say
that
they rely on ad hominum arguments to discredit the other person. And do you
notice that those who complain so much about people discrediting them and
not
sticking to the facts are the ones who are the most guilty of discrediting
people.

It is very sad but it will likely continue as those who accuse others
of being cynical or hypocrites or murderers in an attempt to discredit them
and make themselves look good will continue to thrive in our society where
personal freedom of speech is highly regarded. With freedom come
responsibility. Hopefully those who accuse others of being irresponsible
will
take a good look in the mirror. But I will not hold my breath waiting for
this to happen. Giving all these false root causes and incorrect treatments.
I guess you
understand that few people could understand healing like you do and most of
the
people are just ignorant and buying into the mainstream. It would take a
VERY
special person to understand the healing powers of Paul Iannone. There
are likely not very many people like that around. I give you a lotof credit
Paul
to keep your sanity when everyone around you is acting in such an insane
manner. Yes you are a very special person indeed. And you can't help the
fact
that you are so special, knowledgeable, and selfless. You are not a
****pathologic
narcissist****. You ARE a great healer sent down from the mountaintop to
heal
mankind. <bowing head>

I certainly could not agree with you more that if the doctor said that to
you
that it was very inappropriate. For some reason the doctors that you are
seeing
have pidgeon holed you into the "mentalpatient" and are not taking your
complaints seriously. This is a common problem in medicine in which if a
patient has a ***phychiatric***history it is assumed that their physical
complaints are bogus.

Yes it does seem ironic but it does make perfect sense to me. My senseis
that
the more vocal individuals in this group are more interested in condemning
conventional medicine than in much of anything else.Toward that end they
will
use whatever means they can even if that means that they must continually
contradict themselves. For instance if someone raises an objection to a
claim
they will retort that their claim cannot be validated with the usual
scientific
method. On the other hand they are very quick to use this same scientific
method
to criticize something else. It is clearly a double standardand extremely
transparent to all except those who either lack the intelligence or are so
firmly anti-establishment that they cannot  see the forest for the trees. In
either case it is quite sad indeed.

I prefer to make general statements and allow others to decide whether or
not
they think that they or others apply to what I am saying. You seem to
indicate
that you feel that I was talking specifically about you. Is this because the
comments that I made about certain posters  you believe is true about you?

****I prefer whenever possible NOT to make things personal.*****

It leads to resentment and hard feelings. Although I realize you are a big
boy
and can likely handle criticism quite well as long as it is constructive (is
any criticism of you considered constructive?)

==============================

It is sad that someone has such low self esteem that they have to make up
stories about someone who they feel threatened by. I hope that you work on
yourself image to avoid making a complete fool of yourselfa lthough at this
point it seems like you have already done the damage. I will allow the
readers
to decide if my unwillingness to discuss this with you further is because
ofthe
nonsensicalness of your argument or for other reasons. But this discussion
has
helped me to work on my own intolerance to discussing things with rigid
ideologues who project their rigidity onto others and have such little
insight
into the dysfunctional nature of their thinking. But to call a chiropracter
a
physician is fraudulent. But it comes as no surprise that you would make
such
a statement considering all the half truths and lies that you regularly post
in this newsgroup. Your credibility is reaching for all time lows. And at
this
rate it is difficult to get much lower.  I have little need to report my
abilities to this newsgroup. Those who know me personally know my abilities.
I
am here to discuss and not to promote myself. Yes I know enough to identify

****pathologic narcissistic behaviors****.

IMHO it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Actually
Paul
seems to *invite* ANY critique. And by "invite" I mean to say that he posts
in
such a way to trigger response from anyone, in caseyou had not noticed. What
his motivation is doing so is up for debate but it certainly does not appear
conducive to meaningful discourse or discusssion.

Without records all you have are your delusional beliefs. It must be nice
to just make a statement and then
believe it to be true without any evidence. Yes the truth is out there. But
it
is unlikely we will get it from you.. I suspect however that you will
discover
that the information that I posted IS factual. With all due respect Judy you
seem to have difficulty with reading comprehension.I imagine it is quite
threatening to you to have you professional identity challenged in such a
direct way. Yes Judy, I realize that it is difficult for you to understand
how
I could have sufficient knowledge of this book in order to make my response.
First of all I am doing reading. Secondly I don't feel the need to enhance
my
credibility. If i were you Judy I would worry about your own credibility.
And
the readers can judge the validity of statements made by persons in this
group
by carefully listening to all that is said. In my mind those who are
the"real"
healers DON'T have to continually try to *prove* it on the internet byself
serving statements. Others can judge for themselves. Amber has already
decided.
But given the intensity of her defense of Kelly, I think it is Amber who has
the crush on Kelly.  But don't worry Amber Nicole Johnson.I won't breathe a
word of this to your husband:-).

You have a VERY

***narcissistic personality***

that leads you to believe that things that have nothing to do with you are
related to you. I realize that it is MY attention span that you think is at
fault. Since I was not referring to you perhaps it is YOUR OWN mind that has
some problem. Might be good idea to get that looked into. Perhaps the "mild"
treatments that you have been using on yourself have not been strong enough
to
do the trick.

***I question whether she was EVER diagnosed with breast cancer.***

That is the more basic question.

***I don't believe she ever even had breast cancer***. My interest is
because a
quite incredible story was given claiming breast cancer and cure.

***And the statements just don't add up***Probably the best way to debunk
these
claims is to demonstrate that the person making the claim is lying.

Quite correct Tom. George is REAL good at dishing out the criticism but not
very good at receiving it. And if you read any of his posts(even the ones
that
are lucid) you would understand why. I suspect that if George continues this
behavior he will not be around the internet very long (or at least not with
AOL). Whether any of his posts have much substance to them is questionable.
But I find it very interesting how some alternatavists feel so threatened by
opposing views that are expressed using logical coherent argument that they
will do ANYTHING to squelch the opposition. Look what happened to Dragon
Slayer
due to Paul I. I am just waiting for Paul to send my postmaster a complaint.
I
have already warned my postmaster of what is going on and he is prepared for
it.

The following have not let the free flow of objective information.  They
have
cluttered the newsgroup with insults and abusive language towards many.  I
would suggest that those without Terms of Service that could create a
problem
send lists of nonsense in protest to them 50, 100 or more times when
insulted
by them directly.  I have warned them that any comments to me will be met by
such action.  I simply want them to leave me alone and ignore my existence
in
the newsgroup.  But, they seem to think that they can abuse anyone at will.
Also, send messages with a copy of their remarks to their postmaster. Please
everyone do this to eliminate their rude behavior.

p_iann...@pop.comPaul Iannoned...@spdcc.com

Steve Dyer   some people have forgotten to add information about his abusive
language and remarks

sruss...@ix.netcom.com

Steve Harris, M.D.  this person is under (Sandra Russell),

please correct me if wrong

richj @sirius.pixi.com  or   richj @pixi.comRichard Jacobson aka Aloha, Rich
you will notice that there isa space between j and @.  Whether or not this
makes a  difference I do not know.

Se 'Ya" >Hawaii's premier backpacking trail, the Kalalau Trail on the island

========

Same ugly Richard H Jacobson behavior, same ulgy pattern, same ugly lies.

Hope that helps.

Jan

considering I have not mentioned mercury poisoning, not lied and there is no
hypocrisy, there will no reason for Rich to follow this post. Unless, of
course <GASP> Rich is a cyberstalker *;*
The proof is in the pudding:-)))))

* My primary intent is to expose her lies about mercury poisoning. If
Jan Drew posts 100 times about having mercury poisoning and I only
refute it say 30 times then there are 70 out of 100 that go unrefuted.
An unsuspecting lurker may read her claim and not read the refutal*

*My secondary intent is to discredit her
  by exposing her numerous lies and hypocrisy.*
 Aloha,

 Rich

<snip snide remark>

Things got ugly long ago.

From: Richard Jacobson (ric...@pixi.com)
Subject: Re: Effexor
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Date: 1995/04/02

I am not sure what you mean by too willing to accept the whole depression
diagnosis. I am also not sure what you mean when you say that you don't buy
the
your depression is due to something mental. Is not the fact that they keep
putting you on antidepressants evidence that they do NOT think it is just
something mental. After all the biochemical theory of depression is that
depression is due to a neurotransmitter imbalance and that the
antidepressants
correct that imbalance. Seems to me they are saying that your depression is
physical and not

****psychologic.***
==============================­==============================
Notice how Richard is trying to compare Nazi war crimes with vaccinations.
The
sad thing is that Richard really sees little difference.

Yes but it is unfortunate when parents make decisions with limited
information
due to *****psychopathologic***** fears.

not wanting his kids vaccinated. It's against his religion.  :

him to
exercise it.  Arguing with him is useless as he is not interested in
scientific proof or anything other kind of proof for that matter.

Yes Richard it is *I* who has the myopic view of the world.How many times
have
I suggested that you read about biology and immunology to broaden your
horizons
and how many times haveyou ignored this completely. I also realize that
because
mathematics does not use double blind studies to prove its theories that you
think that this method could be applied to all things that we study. It is
quite difficult for you (despitehow worldly you think you are) to conceive
of
some things being amenable to double blind studies and some things not

Do some reading and you may learn something.

Absolutely fascinating Richard. So your understanding based upon the posts
is
that the ONLY place that your baby could possibly pick up this bacterium is
from sheep, cattle, other small animals and surgical operating theatres?
Perhaps the problem you have extends beyond the *****psychological********.

That is an interesting comment coming from someone who questions modern
medicine using a treatment before studies are done to demonstrate efficacy
and
safety. Well ***Big Al*****, conventionalmedical practice is NOT to jump on
every bandwagon but totest out theories before advocating their use.

Yes ***Big Al****, I realize that you don't agree with my interpretation of
the
statistics and think that I have _no business_ commenting of the numbers. I
will leave it up to the educated readers out thereto decide for themselves
*who* is manipulating *what*. It always strikes me as curious that those who
are so quick to accuse others of manipulation (especially without giving
specifics) are the ones who are really manipulating.

Sorry but I am going to continue to ask for evidence when I am in doubt
about a
treatment. Hope you can accept that my asking is not to be patronizing
(although I will acknowledge that some of my more humorous postings have had
a
patronizing tone tothem) or inflate my ego but instead to get information
that
I think is important instead of just trusting whatever someone decides to
post
here especially when the nature of the post is so seemingly definitive.

aloha,

Rich

It is quite clear to me that you are unhappy with my postsand feel that I am
being disingenuous with the group. Perhapsyou could share with me
specifically
what I have lied about.

Do  you notice that whenever someone does not have anything useful to say
that
they rely on ad hominum arguments to discredit the other person. And do you
notice that those who complain so much about people discrediting them and
not
sticking to the facts are the ones who are the most guilty of discrediting
people.

It is very sad but it will likely continue as those who accuse others
of being cynical or hypocrites or murderers in an attempt to discredit them
and make themselves look good will continue to thrive in our society where
personal freedom of speech is highly regarded. With freedom come
responsibility. Hopefully those who accuse others of being irresponsible
will
take a good look in the mirror. But I will not hold my breath waiting for
this to happen. Giving all these false root causes and incorrect treatments.
I guess you
understand that few people could understand healing like you do and most of
the
people are just ignorant and buying into the mainstream. It would take a
VERY
special person to understand the healing powers of Paul Iannone. There
are likely not very many people like that around. I give you a lotof credit
Paul
to keep your sanity when everyone around you is acting in such an insane
manner. Yes you are a very special person indeed. And you can't help the
fact
that you are so special, knowledgeable, and selfless. You are not a
****pathologic
narcissist****. You ARE a great healer sent down from the mountaintop to
heal
mankind. <bowing head>

I certainly could not agree with you more that if the doctor said that to
you
that it was very inappropriate. For some reason the doctors that you are
seeing
have pidgeon holed you into the "mentalpatient" and are not taking your
complaints seriously. This is a common problem in medicine in which if a
patient has a ***phychiatric***history it is assumed that their physical
complaints are bogus.

Yes it does seem ironic but it does make perfect sense to me. My senseis
that
the more vocal individuals in this group are more interested in condemning
conventional medicine than in much of anything else.Toward that end they
will
use whatever means they can even if that means that they must continually
contradict themselves. For instance if someone raises an objection to a
claim
they will retort that their claim cannot be validated with the usual
scientific
method. On the other hand they are very quick to use this same scientific
method
to criticize something else. It is clearly a double standardand extremely
transparent to all except those who either lack the intelligence or are so
firmly anti-establishment that they cannot  see the forest for the trees. In
either case it is quite sad indeed.

I prefer to make general statements and allow others to decide whether or
not
they think that they or others apply to what I am saying. You seem to
indicate
that you feel that I was talking specifically about you. Is this because the
comments that I made about certain posters  you believe is true about you?

****I prefer whenever possible NOT to make things personal.*****

It leads to resentment and hard feelings. Although I realize you are a big
boy
and can likely handle criticism quite well as long as it is constructive (is
any criticism of you considered constructive?)

==============================

It is sad that someone has such low self esteem that they have to make up
stories about someone who they feel threatened by. I hope that you work on
yourself image to avoid making a complete fool of yourselfa lthough at this
point it seems like you have already done the damage. I will allow the
readers
to decide if my unwillingness to discuss this with you further is because
ofthe
nonsensicalness of your argument or for other reasons. But this discussion
has
helped me to work on my own intolerance to discussing things with rigid
ideologues who project their rigidity onto others and have such little
insight
into the dysfunctional nature of their thinking. But to call a chiropracter
a
physician is fraudulent. But it comes as no surprise that you would make
such
a statement considering all the half truths and lies that you regularly post
in this newsgroup. Your credibility is reaching for all time lows. And at
this
rate it is difficult to get much lower.  I have little need to report my
abilities to this newsgroup. Those who know me personally know my abilities.
I
am here to discuss and not to promote myself. Yes I know enough to identify

****pathologic narcissistic behaviors****.

IMHO it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Actually
Paul
seems to *invite* ANY critique. And by "invite" I mean to say that he posts
in
such a way to trigger response from anyone, in caseyou had not noticed. What
his motivation is doing so is up for debate but it certainly does not appear
conducive to meaningful discourse or discusssion.

Without records all you have are your delusional beliefs. It must be nice
to just make a statement and then
believe it to be true without any evidence. Yes the truth is out there. But
it
is unlikely we will get it from you.. I suspect however that you will
discover
that the information that I posted IS factual. With all due respect Judy you
seem to have difficulty with reading comprehension.I imagine it is quite
threatening to you to have you professional identity challenged in such a
direct way. Yes Judy, I realize that it is difficult for you to understand
how
I could have sufficient knowledge of this book in order to make my response.
First of all I am doing reading. Secondly I don't feel the need to enhance
my
credibility. If i were you Judy I would worry about your own credibility.
And
the readers can judge the validity of statements made by persons in this
group
by carefully listening to all that is said. In my mind those who are
the"real"
healers DON'T have to continually try to *prove* it on the internet byself
serving statements. Others can judge for themselves. Amber has already
decided.
But given the intensity of her defense of Kelly, I think it is Amber who has
the crush on Kelly.  But don't worry Amber Nicole Johnson.I won't breathe a
word of this to your husband:-).

You have a VERY

***narcissistic personality***

that leads you to believe that things that have nothing to do with you are
related to you. I realize that it is MY attention span that you think is at
fault. Since I was not referring to you perhaps it is YOUR OWN mind that has
some problem. Might be good idea to get that looked into. Perhaps the "mild"
treatments that you have been using on yourself have not been strong enough
to
do the trick.

***I question whether she was EVER diagnosed with breast cancer.***

That is the more basic question.

***I don't believe she ever even had breast cancer***. My interest is
because a
quite incredible story was given claiming breast cancer and cure.

***And the statements just don't add up***Probably the best way to debunk
these
claims is to demonstrate that the person making the claim is lying.

Quite correct Tom. George is REAL good at dishing out the criticism but not
very good at receiving it. And if you read any of his posts(even the ones
that
are lucid) you would understand why. I suspect that if George continues this
behavior he will not be around the internet very long (or at least not with
AOL). Whether any of his posts have much substance to them is questionable.
But I find it very interesting how some alternatavists feel so threatened by
opposing views that are expressed using logical coherent argument that they
will do ANYTHING to squelch the opposition. Look what happened to Dragon
Slayer
due to Paul I. I am just waiting for Paul to send my postmaster a complaint.
I
have already warned my postmaster of what is going on and he is prepared for
it.

The following have not let the free flow of objective information.  They
have
cluttered the newsgroup with insults and abusive language towards many.  I
would suggest that those without Terms of Service that could create a
problem
send lists of nonsense in protest to them 50, 100 or more times when
insulted
by them directly.  I have warned them that any comments to me will be met by
such action.  I simply want them to leave me alone and ignore my existence
in
the newsgroup.  But, they seem to think that they can abuse anyone at will.
Also, send messages with a copy of their remarks to their postmaster. Please
everyone do this to eliminate their rude behavior.

p_iann...@pop.comPaul Iannoned...@spdcc.com

Steve Dyer   some people have forgotten to add information about his abusive
language and remarks

sruss...@ix.netcom.com

Steve Harris, M.D.  this person is under (Sandra Russell),

please correct me if wrong

richj @sirius.pixi.com  or   richj @pixi.comRichard Jacobson aka Aloha, Rich
you will notice that there isa space between j and @.  Whether or not this
makes a  difference I do not know.