Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / November 2009
Circumcision causes brain damage
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Martin - 29 Oct 2009 07:10 GMT Blogs - you've gotta love 'em. :)
Here's some 'research' which suggests that male circumcision causes permanent brain damage.
I guess that explains a few things.
<http://drmomma.blogspot.com/2009/10/mri-studies-brain-permanently-altered.html>:
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MRI Studies: The Brain Permanently Altered From Infant Circumcision
by Dr. Paul D. Tinari Ph.D.
Two of my physics professors at Queen's University (Dr. Stewart & Dr. McKee) were the original developers of Positron Emission Tomography (PET) for medical applications. They and a number of other Queen's physicists also worked on improving the accuracy of fMRI for observing metabolic activity within the human body.
As a graduate student working in the Dept. of Epidemiology, I was approached by a group of nurses who were attempting to organize a protest against male infant circumcision in Kinston General Hospital. They said that their observations indicated that babies undergoing the procedure were subjected to significant and inhumane levels of pain that subsequently adversely affected their behaviours. They said that they needed some scientific support for their position. It was my idea to use fMRI and/or PET scanning to directly observe the effects of circumcision on the infant brain.
The operator of the MRI machine in the hospital was a friend of mine and he agreed to allow us to use the machine for research after normal operational hours. We also found a nurse who was under intense pressure by her husband to have her newborn son circumcised and she was willing to have her son to be the subject of the study. Her goal was to provide scientific information that would eventually be used to ban male infant circumcision. Since no permission of the ethics committee was required to perform any routine male infant circumcision, we did not feel it was necessary to seek any permission to carry out this study.
We tightly strapped an infant to a traditional plastic "circumrestraint" using Velcro restraints. We also completely immobilized the infant's head using standard surgical tape. The entire apparatus was then introduced into the MRI chamber. Since no metal objects could be used because of the high magnetic fields, the doctor who performed the surgery used a plastic bell ("Plastibell") with a sterilized obsidian bade to cut the foreskin. No anaesthetic was used.
The baby was kept in the machine for several minutes to generate baseline data of the normal metabolic activity in the brain. This was used to compare to the data gathered during and after the surgery. Analysis of the MRI data indicated that the surgery subjected the infant to significant trauma. The greatest changes occurred in the limbic system concentrating in the amygdala and in the frontal and temporal lobes.
A neurologist who saw the results to postulated that the data indicated that circumcision affected most intensely the portions of the victim's brain associated with reasoning, perception and emotions. Follow up tests on the infant one day, one week and one month after the surgery indicated that the child's brain never returned to its baseline configuration. In other words, the evidence generated by this research indicated that the brain of the circumcised infant was permanently changed by the surgery.
Our problems began when we attempted to publish our findings in the open medical literature. All of the participants in the research including myself were called before the hospital discipline committee and were severely reprimanded. We were told that while male circumcision was legal under all circumstances in Canada, any attempt to study the adverse effects of circumcision was strictly prohibited by the ethical regulations. Not only could we not publish the results of our research, but we also had to destroy all of our results. If we refused to comply, we were all threatened with immediate dismissal and legal action.
I would encourage anyone with access to fMRI and /or PET scanning machines to repeat our research as described above, confirm our results, and then publish the results in the open literature.
Dr. Paul D. Tinari, Ph.D. Director, Pacific Institute for Advanced Study
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 Signature <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> 14 years, 9 months and 16 days.
David Canzi - 29 Oct 2009 16:57 GMT ><http://drmomma.blogspot.com/2009/10/mri-studies-brain-permanently-altered.html>: >----- Begin Quote ----- >MRI Studies: The Brain Permanently Altered From Infant Circumcision >by Dr. Paul D. Tinari Ph.D. [...]
>Our problems began when we attempted to publish our findings in the >open medical literature. All of the participants in the research [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >to study the adverse effects of circumcision was strictly prohibited >by the ethical regulations. In the name of ethics, they forbid investigations into whether circumcision is unethical. By refusing to find out, they maintain a state of useful ignorance that lets them claim their actions are ethical because they have no knowledge to the contrary.
 Signature David Canzi | Every time you write clever code in | production software, God kills a kitten.
Jake Waskett - 29 Oct 2009 17:41 GMT >><http://drmomma.blogspot.com/2009/10/mri-studies-brain-permanently-altered.html>: >>----- Begin Quote ----- [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > state of useful ignorance that lets them claim their actions are ethical > because they have no knowledge to the contrary. If you believe the tale...
Jack - 29 Oct 2009 18:33 GMT > > In article <1158.1256796628.20091...@hiv-poz.co.uk>, Martin > > <mar...@hiv-poz.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > If you believe the tale... You're familiar with this one:
"Infants Feel and Remember Circumcision Pain - Study TORONTO, Feb. 28, 1997 - Male infants feel pain during circumcision and they remember that pain six months later when they receive their routine vaccination, according to a study led by Hospital for Sick Children (HSC) researchers."
Memory is a lasting alteration of the brain.
David Z - 29 Oct 2009 22:34 GMT On Oct 29, 12:41 pm, Jake Waskett <j...@waskett.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:57:23 +0000, David Canzi wrote: > > In article <1158.1256796628.20091...@hiv-poz.co.uk>, Martin [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > If you believe the tale... You're familiar with this one:
"Infants Feel and Remember Circumcision Pain - Study TORONTO, Feb. 28, 1997 - Male infants feel pain during circumcision and they remember that pain six months later when they receive their routine vaccination, according to a study led by Hospital for Sick Children (HSC) researchers."
Memory is a lasting alteration of the brain.
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Unfortunately your memory is shot. How many times have you posted this study before?
Jack - 30 Oct 2009 14:24 GMT > On Oct 29, 12:41 pm, Jake Waskett <j...@waskett.org> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Jake apparently forgot about it.
David Z - 30 Oct 2009 14:45 GMT On Oct 29, 5:34 pm, "David Z" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> "Jack" <furgfurgf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Jake apparently forgot about it.
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You're the one who forgets. Jake, and everyone else here, is just tired of your redundancy and lack of memory.
Martin - 30 Oct 2009 17:25 GMT >You're the one who forgets. Jake, and everyone else here, is just tired of >your redundancy and lack of memory. A typical response from a circumcision enthusiast, who assumes his opinion is shared by everyone else.
It's little wonder that such people force their fetish onto baby boys, with the assumption that later in life they'll be pleased to have been circumcised.
Does "David Z" disagree with the points I make? Let's sit back and see whether he overcomes brain damage to argue against them or remains in silent agreement.
 Signature <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> 14 years, 9 months and 17 days.
Jack - 30 Oct 2009 18:02 GMT > >You're the one who forgets. Jake, and everyone else here, is just tired of > >your redundancy and lack of memory. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> > 14 years, 9 months and 17 days. Kinda scatterbrained there, Martin.
Jake Waskett - 30 Oct 2009 15:38 GMT >> On Oct 29, 12:41 pm, Jake Waskett <j...@waskett.org> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Jake apparently forgot about it. Oh, I think I see what you mean. Tinari claimed that "We were told that while male circumcision was legal under all circumstances in Canada, any attempt to study the adverse effects of circumcision was strictly prohibited by the ethical regulations." But if that were true then the Canadian pain study could never have been conducted. So you're citing the latter as proof that Tinari is ... well ... being economical with the truth. Is that right?
Jack - 30 Oct 2009 16:26 GMT > >> "Jack" <furgfurgf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > - Show quoted text - No, but I see what you mean. I was being obtuse and it would be an exercise in vain to parse it apart. Anyway, hi, thanks for posting. It nice that there's at least one person who posts with thought and substance. Which David Z never does, but that's just how he is.
David Canzi - 30 Oct 2009 18:12 GMT >>> "Infants Feel and Remember Circumcision Pain - Study TORONTO, Feb. 28, >>> 1997 - Male infants feel pain during circumcision and they remember [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >prohibited by the ethical regulations." But if that were true then the >Canadian pain study could never have been conducted. Tinari did his experiment at a hospital in Kingston. The Hospital for Sick Children is a different hospital, in Toronto. Different hospitals, different ethical regulations.
The stated reason why the Kingston hospital forbade research on harmful effects of circumcision would, 20 or 30 years ago, have forbidden research on the harmful effects of smoking.
What attracted my attention to this issue was the unethicality of the Kingston hospital's ethical regulation. By forbidding research into whether circumcision is harmful, they're choosing not to find out whether they're doing harm.
There may be a subtler and more ethical motive. If circumcision was found to be harmful, the hospital probably could not refuse to circumcise infants. If hospitals did that, parents would just take their children elsewhere -- possibly somewhere less safe, to be operated on by somebody less skilled.
 Signature David Canzi | Every time you write clever code in | production software, God kills a kitten.
Jake Waskett - 30 Oct 2009 18:43 GMT >>>> "Infants Feel and Remember Circumcision Pain - Study TORONTO, Feb. >>>> 28, 1997 - Male infants feel pain during circumcision and they [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Sick Children is a different hospital, in Toronto. Different hospitals, > different ethical regulations. If you re-read the sentence I quoted, you'll see that it refers to Canada, not one particular hospital.
> The stated reason why the Kingston hospital forbade research on harmful > effects of circumcision would, 20 or 30 years ago, have forbidden > research on the harmful effects of smoking. By analogy, yes. Also, it would have forbidden research on adverse effects of any surgical or medical intervention.
> What attracted my attention to this issue was the unethicality of the > Kingston hospital's ethical regulation. By forbidding research into > whether circumcision is harmful, they're choosing not to find out > whether they're doing harm. It does seem rather implausible, doesn't it?
> There may be a subtler and more ethical motive. Um, before speculating about motives, wouldn't it make sense to first confirm that these events actually happened? If a story seems too strange to be true, chances are that it is a fabrication.
> If circumcision was > found to be harmful, the hospital probably could not refuse to > circumcise infants. If hospitals did that, parents would just take > their children elsewhere -- possibly somewhere less safe, to be operated > on by somebody less skilled. David Canzi - 01 Nov 2009 23:24 GMT >>>>> "Infants Feel and Remember Circumcision Pain - Study TORONTO, Feb. >>>>> 28, 1997 - Male infants feel pain during circumcision and they [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >If you re-read the sentence I quoted, you'll see that it refers to Canada, >not one particular hospital. Canada does not have "ethical regulations". It has laws. Some workplaces, such as universities and hospitals, have ethics codes. Just because one of a workplace's ethical rules refers to the laws of the land, that doesn't make it a law of the land.
>> The stated reason why the Kingston hospital forbade research on harmful >> effects of circumcision would, 20 or 30 years ago, have forbidden [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >It does seem rather implausible, doesn't it? I don't find it implausible that a university administrator would write an incompletely thought out rule with unintended consequences into the ethics code. I doubt that hospital administrators writing ethics codes are much different.
The result of Tinari's experiment, as described, is plausible and unsurprising. Put a baby into an MRI machine and circumcise him without anaesthesia. Put him into the MRI machine again a day or a month later, and it's no surprise his readings aren't baseline. (What this demonstrates is conditioning, not brain damage.)
 Signature David Canzi
Jack - 29 Oct 2009 18:37 GMT > In article <1158.1256796628.20091...@hiv-poz.co.uk>, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > a state of useful ignorance that lets them claim their actions > are ethical because they have no knowledge to the contrary. Yeah... at least a century of (im)plausible denial that infants feel pain has ended. But doctors still don't use anesthesia half the time. One of the many cruel oddities of a entrenched ritual.
"Circumcision study halted due to trauma December 23, 1997 Web posted at: 11:46 p.m. EST (0446 GMT) ATLANTA (CNN) -- A new study found circumcision so traumatic that doctors ended the study early rather than subject any more babies to the operation without anesthesia." http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9712/23/circumcision.anesthetic/
David Z - 29 Oct 2009 22:35 GMT On Oct 29, 11:57 am, dmca...@remulak.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi) wrote:
> In article <1158.1256796628.20091...@hiv-poz.co.uk>, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > a state of useful ignorance that lets them claim their actions > are ethical because they have no knowledge to the contrary. Yeah... at least a century of (im)plausible denial that infants feel pain has ended. But doctors still don't use anesthesia half the time. One of the many cruel oddities of a entrenched ritual.
"Circumcision study halted due to trauma December 23, 1997 Web posted at: 11:46 p.m. EST (0446 GMT) ATLANTA (CNN) -- A new study found circumcision so traumatic that doctors ended the study early rather than subject any more babies to the operation without anesthesia." http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9712/23/circumcision.anesthetic/
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How many times have you posted this "new" study? Do you remember?
Jack - 30 Oct 2009 14:25 GMT > On Oct 29, 11:57 am, dmca...@remulak.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi) wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > - Show quoted text - You've never had anything to say about it. Ignoring it won't make it go away.
Martin - 29 Oct 2009 23:33 GMT >><http://drmomma.blogspot.com/2009/10/mri-studies-brain-permanently-altered.html>: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>to study the adverse effects of circumcision was strictly prohibited >>by the ethical regulations.
>In the name of ethics, they forbid investigations into whether >circumcision is unethical. By refusing to find out, they maintain >a state of useful ignorance that lets them claim their actions >are ethical because they have no knowledge to the contrary. It's a blog entry, so we should view it with some skepticism.
Dr Paul D. Tinari, PhD seems to have quite a downer on circumcision, and often writes to diss it.
For example <http://mensightmagazine.com/Articles/Tinari,%20Paul/africancirc.htm>:
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If the industry truly cared about the health of Africans, then it would be funding proper epidemiological studies, not the severely flawed, politically motivated “research” that has just been selectively made public. Why the obsession with ONLY studying male circumcision and HIV infection? Why is it that although female circumcision was also found to reduce HIV infection at the same conference where Auvert presented his alleged “evidence” that male circumcision can help lower HIV rates that absolutely no media attention was given to the study involving cutting female genitals? After all, the female labia have exactly the same cellular receptors as the male foreskin. Since it has now been established that circumcised females have a lower risk of HIV infection than intact ones, then why are researchers not demanding large scale circumcision of females in North America to give women the same alleged protection from HIV that men are getting?
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But, of course, anything that doesn't promote male circumcision in a positive light will be swept under the carpet. Some religions and cultures regard it as an absolute right, and an intrinsic part their beliefs. To question circumcision is to question those beliefs.
 Signature <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> 14 years, 9 months and 16 days.
john - 31 Oct 2009 09:38 GMT "Martin" <martin@hiv-poz.co.uk> wrote in message news:1158.1256796628.20091029@hiv-
> I guess that explains a few things. sure does http://www.whale.to/a/male_circumcision_h.html
Martin - 31 Oct 2009 10:58 GMT >"Martin" <martin@hiv-poz.co.uk> wrote in message >news:1158.1256796628.20091029@hiv-
>>I guess that explains a few things.
>sure does http://www.whale.to/a/male_circumcision_h.html Some nice pictures at <http://www.whale.to/b/male_genital_mutilation_p.html> for the circumcision fetishist to add to his personal collection.
Fourth picture down, Rabbi Yosef David Weisburg. I bet there are a few people reading this who would pay good money to do that job.
Of course they'd anaesthetise first, so that makes it okay.
I was wondering why you had an image of a torture device from the middle ages on that page until I clicked on it, see <http://knittedinthewomb.com/wp/?p=455>, and discovered it's a "Circumstraint Board." Nice. $265.00 at <http://www.quickmedical.com/olympicmedical/circumstraint/immobolizer.html> and it's a "Best Seller" too. The mind boggles.
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In less than 30 seconds, a nurse can immobilize the struggling infant securely in the correct position with Circumstraint. The immobilizer works on a proven principle of positive 4-point restraint. Soft wide Velcro straps encircle the infant's elbows and knees, depriving him/her of leverage. The child is held safely and securely without danger of escape. Circumstraint's comfortable contoured shape positions the infant, hips elevated, perfectly presenting the genitalia. The platform between the infant's legs provides support for a circumcision clamp. Without pins, towels, plastic shells or the threat of strangulation, Circumstraint snugly and securely immobilizes the infant with their entire torso visible.
[...]
Circumstraint has become the infant immobilization standard for modern nurseries.
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Perhaps this type of device was considered "modern" a few hundred years ago, but surely not so today.
In find it interesting that babies who can't talk, or even feed themselves, instinctively know circumcision is wrong and have to be forcibly restrained while the barbaric procedure is performed.
 Signature <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> 14 years, 9 months and 18 days.
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