Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / April 2004
Aids in Africa: True or False?
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abinkum@yahoo.com - 24 Apr 2004 04:57 GMT It is now "conventional wisdom" that there is a catastrophic HIV/AIDS problem in Africa. Tens of millions are said to be infected, millions die every year and we are informed that the problem continues to escalate. We receive this education from the mainstream mass media, in the form of reports from major authorities like US government health authorities, statistical studies from the World Health Organization and reports on latest HIV research from retrovirologists. Although it is never reported in the US mass media, a few of us have also heard that there is controversy about these claims, and that many scientists now claim that HIV is harmless or does not even exist. Yet this appears incredible to most people since it would seem to involve an impossible conspiracy of all these authorities. However the numbers and credentials of AIDS "dissenters" suggest that their arguments should at least be considered. In South Africa, a media debate has been raging in recent months (uncovered in the USA corporate media) between Rian Malan, journalist and famous South African novelist, and the Treatment Action Campaign (TAC). The TAC is a heavily funded group which claims to be a grass roots "AIDS activism" movement and heavily promotes the mass use of antiretroviral drugs in Africa. Malan first smelt a rat when contracted in 1999 for an article to discredit (then and current) South African president Thabo Mbeki, who was resisting the use of antiretrovirals in his country. Everyone thought Mbeki "had gone off his rocker" since the media proclaimed 250,000 dead that year in SA alone. Malan decided to report on the coffin business in Johannesburg as a graphic way of illustrating the emergency, but to his surprise found that coffin manufacturers reported business was rather quiet. The TAC's response was that the sample he used (the only two coffin makers in the Jo'burg phonebook) was too small. If the TAC are impartial and concerned for the public good, one wonders why they did not carry out a similar survey of coffin makers themselves to investigate this claim. In his articles such as "APOCALYPSE WHEN?" in Noseweek magazine Malan reports on various anomalies of the "official" AIDS story. One concerns the media claim of 60% infection rates in the prison population. HIV elisa tests have been carried out in the jail at Grahamstown, SA in recent years giving HIV rates of 3%. In the last 7 years there have been only two deaths attributed to HIV/AIDS about one every 3 years. Even Malan seems to miss the incongruity here: a rate of 3% of 550 inmates is about 20 people, so at the very least one would expect 4 or 5 to have died last year. This does seem to support the claims of AIDS "dissenters' that HIV tests are invalid. However in Africa it is not even necessary to be tested, for HIV to be diagnosed. Typical symptoms of tuberculosis or malaria, the traditionally biggest killers in Africa, satisfy the World Health Organization's "Bangai definition" of AIDS in developing countries. Malan's analysis of statistics showed that even the establishment (Medical Research Council) statistics put AIDS prevalence at about the same as TB, yet 90 times as much funding is available for AIDS. African doctors will often diagnose AIDS in cases of TB, since so much more funding is then available for their patients further skewing the statistics. In Botswana the media and the TAC proclaimed in 2003 an unprecedented catastrophe with the population being decimated by AIDS, based on their usual computer-modeled statistical estimates from limited data. Unfortunately for them, an actual census report was released a few months later which showed healthy population growth rates. This dramatic contradiction was not covered by the corporate media. Of the huge amount of evidence now available challenging the HIV paradigm, a dramatic example is the "Partage Tanzania" project started in 1989 by Philippe Krynen and his wife to help "AIDS orphans" (for example see "Aids in Africa a field experience" by Dr Marc Deru). Over the first couple of years of the project, Krynen at first a media spokesman warning of the catastrophe - gradually changed his opinion of the AIDS crisis. Testing extensively, he noticed that HIV+ children had exactly the same chances of recovery as HIV-, and that children testing positive after a bout of malaria could be HIV negative 6 months later. This correlates with other studies showing that Malaria, TB, pregnancy and dozens of other conditions can give a false HIV+ reading. In this supposed epicenter of AIDS, Tanzania's population grew by 49% between 1988 and 2002, yet Krynen records that no antiretrovirals and until 2000 no condoms were introduced. His ongoing project demonstrates that the best treatment for Africans with impaired immune function is good nutrition and clean water. Even Luc Montagnier, the co-discoverer of the alleged HIV virus, has publicly stated he is unable to show how HIV can cause AIDS. The following are a few of the best of hundreds of AIDS dissenting websites for those interested in this issue: (virusmyth.org; theperthgroup.com; altheal.org; aliveandwell.org and healtoronto.com), and for public discussion: AIDSmythexposed.com. Rian Malan's articles on the issue can be easily found by internet search, and the TAC responses to Malan can be found on their website.
PaulKing - 24 Apr 2004 09:04 GMT Great post!!!!!!!
An article in last year's Journal of STDs and AIDS notes inexplicable appearances of so-called HIV infection among no-risk populations in Sub-Saharan Africa.
According to the authors, 'an expanding body of evidence challenges the conventional hypothesis that sexual transmission is responsible for more than 90% of adult HIV infections in Africa'.
Although perceptive enough to notice that differences in HIV rates among African countries are not explained by differences in sexual behavior, the
researchers fail to note that HIV tests cannot diagnose actual infection with HIV. They also don1t seem to know that positive results can be triggered by antibodies created in response to pregnancy and numerous endemic conditions.
These simple facts would unravel the mystery of 'unexplained high rates of
HIV incidence' in African women during antenatal and postpartum periods and how African adults with no sexual exposure to HIV and in children with HIV-negative mothers2 manage to come up positive.
Maybe someday AIDS experts will be as well informed as they are well funded
abinkum@yahoo.com - 24 Apr 2004 20:13 GMT CAn you perhaps find the reference to that article? issue number/date or whatever. Sounds like a valuable addition to the collection of evidence questioning HIV=Aids - of course there is already a mountain, for example about how non-specific the tests are.
> Great post!!!!!!! > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Maybe someday AIDS experts will be as well informed as they are well > funded Baby Peanut - 24 Apr 2004 14:18 GMT > It is now "conventional wisdom" that there is a catastrophic HIV/AIDS > problem in Africa. Tens of millions are said to be infected, millions [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > good, one wonders why they did not carry out a similar survey of > coffin makers themselves to investigate this claim. Oh that can be disproved so easily. There are web sites listing many more than two coffin makers.
http://www.frain.org.za/advisors/advisorsgautjobrg.html
[...snip rest of schlock...]
abinkum@yahoo.com - 24 Apr 2004 20:08 GMT > > Malan first smelt a rat when contracted in 1999 for an article to > > discredit (then and current) South African president Thabo Mbeki, who [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://www.frain.org.za/advisors/advisorsgautjobrg.html Please provide a list of "many" coffin makers in Jo'burg. I checked the yellow pages 3 weeks ago and there were 2. It's interesting you say that "can be disproved so easily" assuming you are right before you even try. Go ahead, ring coffin makes "many" if you can find more than 2 or 3 see what they say and report back, including their names and numbers of course so your claims can be verified of course it won't be believable otherwise.
PaulKing - 25 Apr 2004 23:50 GMT Funny! Not a word from our great expert 'BabyPeanut'.
I thought she said it 'was so easy to disprove'?
Moira de Swardt - 28 Apr 2004 14:43 GMT <abinkum@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Please provide a list of "many" coffin makers in Jo'burg. I checked > the yellow pages 3 weeks ago and there were 2. It's interesting you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > names and numbers of course so your claims can be verified - of course > it won't be believable otherwise. This is a ridiculous test. Why would coffins need to be made in Johannesburg where the rents are expensive? Most coffins are made in small outlying areas where rentals are cheap. Cardboard coffins are available, although I am told not very popular yet. Why not check out the burgeoning number of funeral parlours and ask your questions of them? This includes the little ones in the townships where their advertising is localised. Remember, in Africa not every business has a telephone or even a business premises. Much of our "employment" is of the informal variety, particularly things like coffin making.
The South African Yellow Pages is online, and Johannesburg must include the West Rand and East Rand for statistical accuracy although they are technically different directories they are the same dialling code.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
abinkum@yahoo.com - 29 Apr 2004 02:16 GMT > <abinkum@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Moira, the Faerie Godmother 1. So you think that in 99 when there was reportedly a death toll of 250,000 from aids in South AFrica, with Sowetto one of the supposed epicenters, that it is remotely feasible that business at *any* J'burg coffinmaker would have been *quiet*? Despite this "classless" sexually transmitted disease.
2. I assume you claim to be impartial and concerned about the supposed Aids crisis. YOu would no doubt be overjoyed to find that the crisis is (at the very least) grossly exaggerated. Why then are you arrogantly dismissive of people like Malan without even bothering to check. The answer seems obvious to me. You have Aids Inc death-coloured glasses on and are not impartial in the slightest. Prove me wrong - make a few calls and visits to your cofin makers; try to find out why there is mysteriously no demand for your cardboard coffins, and report back to us - with evidence of course, not just your word.
Incidentally you should read the Milan articles and the TAC replies, to find out how meaningless the 250,000 figure really was (now quietly reduced to about 90,000 from memory).
Moira de Swardt - 29 Apr 2004 13:18 GMT <abinkum@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> 1. So you think that in 99 when there was reportedly a death toll of > 250,000 from aids in South AFrica, with Sowetto one of the supposed > epicenters, that it is remotely feasible that business at *any* J'burg > coffinmaker would have been *quiet*? Despite this "classless" sexually > transmitted disease. I don't see any reason to speculate about this. It is actually irrelevant.
> 2. I assume you claim to be impartial and concerned about the supposed > Aids crisis. YOu would no doubt be overjoyed to find that the crisis [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > coffins, and report back to us - with evidence of course, not just > your word. I don't claim to be impartial at all. I am most concerned and, indeed intimately involved, in the AIDS crisis, nothing supposed.
I would, of course, be delighted to find the crisis exaggerated or non-existent. But it is not.
There is no desire to wear "death-coloured glasses". The truth is that HIV is technically a manageable disease. People should not be acquiring HIV, those with it should be managing it and then the prognosis will be rosy. So you could say I'm working for a rosy future.
The reason there is a low demand for cardboard coffins is that they are not regarded as being "good enough" for the dead person. People want to be seen to be generous towards the dear departed loved one and there are people out there who are in the money making business.
> Incidentally you should read the Milan articles and the TAC replies, > to find out how meaningless the 250,000 figure really was (now quietly > reduced to about 90,000 from memory). Whose memory?
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Jordan - 29 Apr 2004 03:49 GMT >>It is now "conventional wisdom" that there is a catastrophic HIV/AIDS >>problem in Africa. Tens of millions are said to be infected, millions [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > [...snip rest of schlock...] Why rise to the bait?
Malan's personal position isas follows:
To reiterate my basic position: Aids is a serious problem in Africa, but the extent of infections has been overestimated. - Rian Malan
Overestimating something does not mean it does not exist. But then the denialists are clutching at straws.
abinkum@yahoo.com - 29 Apr 2004 14:20 GMT I think you missed something from my article...how convenient for you:
Of the huge amount of evidence now available challenging the HIV paradigm, a dramatic example is the "Partage Tanzania" project started in 1989 by Philippe Krynen and his wife to help "AIDS orphans" (for example see "Aids in Africa a field experience" by Dr Marc Deru). Over the first couple of years of the project, Krynen at first a media spokesman warning of the catastrophe - gradually changed his opinion of the AIDS crisis. Testing extensively, he noticed that HIV+ children had exactly the same chances of recovery as HIV-, and that children testing positive after a bout of malaria could be HIV negative 6 months later. This correlates with other studies showing that Malaria, TB, pregnancy and dozens of other conditions can give a false HIV+ reading. In this supposed epicenter of AIDS, Tanzania's population grew by 49% between 1988 and 2002, yet Krynen records that no antiretrovirals and until 2000 no condoms were introduced. His ongoing project demonstrates that the best treatment for Africans with impaired immune function is good nutrition and clean water. Even Luc Montagnier, the co-discoverer of the alleged HIV virus, has publicly stated he is unable to show how HIV can cause AIDS. The following are a few of the best of hundreds of AIDS dissenting websites for those interested in this issue: (virusmyth.org; theperthgroup.com; altheal.org; aliveandwell.org and healtoronto.com), and for public discussion: AIDSmythexposed.com. Rian Malan's articles on the issue can be easily found by internet search, and the TAC responses to Malan can be found on their website.
> Why rise to the bait? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Overestimating something does not mean it does not exist. But then the > denialists are clutching at straws. Jordan - 29 Apr 2004 17:34 GMT > I think you missed something from my article...how convenient for you: Let me try it again for your benefit then. This is what Malan has to say about the situation.
"To reiterate my basic position: Aids is a serious problem in Africa, but the extent of infections has been overestimated." - Rian Malan
> Of the huge amount of evidence now available challenging the HIV > paradigm, a dramatic example is the "Partage Tanzania" project started [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >>Overestimating something does not mean it does not exist. But then the >>denialists are clutching at straws. abinkum@yahoo.com - 30 Apr 2004 22:28 GMT > > I think you missed something from my article...how convenient for you: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "To reiterate my basic position: Aids is a serious problem in Africa, > but the extent of infections has been overestimated." - Rian Malan I know exactly what Malan's current position is on HIV, are you being deliberately deceptive? Obviously I alluded to it in my article, as to why he could not see the problem with the HIV tests in the prison data. His is an "entry level" of HIV/AIds rethinking. Most rethinkers have gone way beyond that, in fact probably most, including myself, now do not think HIV even exists. Personally, my entry level was in finding out that it was not a heterosexual disease and was (and still is) being deliberately and massively misrepresented as such.
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