Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / October 2007
immoral choice or birth defect
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Death - 16 Oct 2007 14:22 GMT October 15, 2007 Study Seeks DNA Clues on Homosexuality By LINDSEY TANNER AP Medical Writer
CHICAGO (AP) -
Julio and Mauricio Cabrera are gay brothers who are convinced their sexual orientation is as deeply rooted as their Mexican ancestry. They are among 1,000 pairs of gay brothers taking part in the largest study to date seeking genes that may influence whether people are gay.
The Cabreras hope the findings will help silence critics who say homosexuality is an immoral choice.
If fresh evidence is found suggesting genes are involved, perhaps homosexuality will be viewed as no different than other genetic traits like height and hair color, said Julio, a student at DePaul University in Chicago.
Adds his brother, "I think it would help a lot of folks understand us better."
The federally funded study, led by Chicago-area researchers, will rely on blood or saliva samples to help scientists search for genetic clues to the origins of homosexuality. Parents and straight brothers also are being recruited.
While initial results aren't expected until next year - and won't provide a final answer - skeptics are already attacking the methods and disputing the presumed results.
Previous studies have shown that sexual orientation tends to cluster in families, though that doesn't prove genetics is involved. Extended families may share similar child-rearing practices, religion and other beliefs that could also influence sexual orientation.
Research involving identical twins, often used to study genetics since they share the same DNA, has had mixed results.
One widely cited study in the 1990s found that if one member of a pair of identical twins was gay, the other had a 52 percent chance of being gay. In contrast, the result for pairs of non-twin brothers, was 9 percent. A 2000 study of Australian identical twins found a much lower chance.
Dr. Alan Sanders of Evanston Northwestern Healthcare Research Institute, the lead researcher of the new study, said he suspects there isn't one so-called "gay gene."
It is more likely there are several genes that interact with nongenetic factors, including psychological and social influences, to determine sexual orientation, said Sanders, a psychiatrist.
Still, he said, "If there's one gene that makes a sizable contribution, we have a pretty good chance" of finding it.
Many gays fear that if gay genes are identified, it could result in discrimination, prenatal testing and even abortions to eliminate homosexuals, said Joel Ginsberg of the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association.
However, he added, "If we confirm that sexual orientation is an immutable characteristic, we are much more likely to get the courts to rule against discrimination."
There is less research on lesbians, Sanders said, although some studies suggest that male and female sexual orientation may have different genetic influences.
His new research is an attempt to duplicate and expand on a study published in 1993 involving 40 pairs of gay brothers. That hotly debated study, wrongly touted as locating "the gay gene," found that gay brothers shared genetic markers in a region on the X chromosome, which men inherit from their mothers.
That implies that any genes influencing sexual orientation lie somewhere in that region.
Previous attempts to duplicate those results failed. But Sanders said that with so many participants, his study has a better chance of finding the same markers and perhaps others on different chromosomes.
If these markers appear in gay brothers but not their straight brothers or parents, that would suggest a link to sexual orientation. The study is designed to find genetic markers, not to explain any genetic role in behavior.
And Sanders said even if he finds no evidence, that won't mean genetics play no role; it may simply mean that individual genes have a smaller effect.
Skeptics include Stanton Jones, a psychology professor and provost at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Ill. An evangelical Christian, Jones last month announced results of a study he co-authored that says it's possible for gays to "convert" - changing their sexual orientation without harm.
Jones said his results suggest biology plays only a minor role in sexual orientation, and that researchers seeking genetic clues generally have a pro-gay agenda that will produce biased results.
Sanders disputed that criticism.
"We do not have a predetermined point we are trying to prove," he said. "We are trying to pry some of nature's secrets loose with respect to a fundamental human trait."
Jones acknowledged that he's not a neutral observer. His study involved 98 gays "seeking help" from Exodus International, a Christian group that believes homosexuals can become straight through prayer and counseling. Exodus International funded Jones' study.
The group's president, Alan Chambers, said he is a former homosexual who went straight and believes homosexuality is morally wrong.
Even if research ultimately shows that genetics play a bigger role, it "will never be something that forces people to behave in a certain way," Chambers said. "We all have the freedom to choose."
The Cabrera brothers grew up in Mexico in a culture where "being gay was an embarrassment," especially for their father, said Mauricio, 41, a car dealership employee from Olathe, Kan.
They had cousins who were gay, but Mauricio said he still felt he had to hide his sexual orientation and he struggled with his "double life." Julio said having an older brother who was gay made it easier for him to accept his sexuality.
Jim Larkin, 54, a gay journalist in Flint, Mich., said the genetics study is a move in the right direction.
Given the difficulties of being gay in a predominantly straight society, homosexuality "is not a choice someone would make in life," said Larkin, who is not a study participant.
He had two brothers who were gay. One died from AIDS; the other committed suicide. Larkin said he didn't come out until he was 26.
"I fought and I prayed and I went to Mass and I said the rosary," Larkin said. "I moved away from everybody I knew ... thinking maybe this will cause the feelings to subside. It doesn't."
Sanders' research: http://www.gaybros.com
Exodus International: http://www.exodus.to
Qazfez - 17 Oct 2007 08:56 GMT > October 15, 2007 > Study Seeks DNA Clues on Homosexuality [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The Cabreras hope the findings will help silence critics who say > homosexuality is an immoral choice. But of course, gay propagandists have been arguing for years that science has already shown beyond a doubt that homosexuality is not a choice, and that it is biologically innate. If that were true, studies like this wouldn't even need conducting.
[snip]
> Jim Larkin, 54, a gay journalist in Flint, Mich., said the genetics study > is a move in the right direction. > > Given the difficulties of being gay in a predominantly straight society, > homosexuality "is not a choice someone would make in life," said Larkin, > who is not a study participant. What naive reasoning. Of course, people would choose to be gay, if they feel like doing something dangerous. People - especially men - do that all the time.
[snip]
Death - 18 Oct 2007 06:51 GMT > > October 15, 2007 > > Study Seeks DNA Clues on Homosexuality [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > [snip] Indeed, the hunt for an excuse to be a faggot continues. It just couldn't be filthy behavior
RamRod Sword of Baal - 18 Oct 2007 08:49 GMT >> > October 15, 2007 >> > Study Seeks DNA Clues on Homosexuality [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Indeed, the hunt for an excuse to be a faggot continues. > It just couldn't be filthy behavior Oh you mean things like anal and oral sex, you know the stuff so may heterosexuals do...........
Death - 18 Oct 2007 16:04 GMT > >> > October 15, 2007 > >> > Study Seeks DNA Clues on Homosexuality [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Oh you mean things like anal and oral sex, you know the stuff so may > heterosexuals do........... So you wannabe a woman.........like I haven't asked you that a 100xs be4.
RamRod Sword of Baal - 18 Oct 2007 17:18 GMT >> >> > October 15, 2007 >> >> > Study Seeks DNA Clues on Homosexuality [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >> > So you wannabe a woman.........like I haven't asked you that a 100xs be4. I see you dodged the question, and no I have no wish to be a woman, why do you?
Death - 19 Oct 2007 21:07 GMT > >> >> > October 15, 2007 > >> >> > Study Seeks DNA Clues on Homosexuality [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > I see you dodged the question, and no I have no wish to be a woman, why do > you? You bring up what a man and woman do, as if two males can do the same. I asked if you wanted to be the female of the pair. .......................No, I have a female to be the female.
RamRod Sword of Baal - 19 Oct 2007 21:28 GMT >> >> >> > October 15, 2007 >> >> >> > Study Seeks DNA Clues on Homosexuality [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > can do the same. I asked if you wanted to be the female > of the pair. .......................No, I have a female to be the female. Well I mean you make a statement about 'filthy behavior' (Your statement, not mine), so what do you mean by that, I could only assume you meant anal and oral sex, which is something many heterosexuals do, so if not that, what are you referring to?
Death - 20 Oct 2007 00:10 GMT "RamRod Sword of Baal" <RamRod@truth_only.com> wrote in message
"Death" wrote in message
> >> >> > Indeed, the hunt for an excuse to be a faggot continues. > >> >> > It just couldn't be filthy behavior [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Well I mean you make a statement about 'filthy behavior' (Your statement, > not mine), " Death" <Death@yourdoor.net> wrote in message
> > > Indeed, the hunt for an excuse to be a faggot continues. > > > It just couldn't be filthy behavior
>so what do you mean by that, By faggots having filthy behavior? Like one male f.cking another male in its a.s? I didn't say ass-f.cking was filthy, but 2 perverted males sh.t-pushing each-other.
>I could only assume you meant anal > and oral sex, which is something many heterosexuals do, so if not that, what > are you referring to? ScottyFLL - 18 Oct 2007 11:43 GMT > Re: immoral choice or birth defect I would guess that you are both.
Dolf Boek - 18 Oct 2007 11:51 GMT DON'T KNOW HOW TO DEAL WTH PHENOMENAL SPAM AND HATE SPEECH?
Here is an example of a deliberative and systematic process of slander. The dynamic in Barry OGrady's 'You lie as a serpent' discourse is phenomenal {ie. the conceptual philosophical doctrine that phenomena only are objects of knowledge, or that phenomena are only realities as cognition of an appearance or immediate object of awareness in experience} --and does indeed mimic nous conceptual zones as Categories of Understanding: Male Idea: #126. Female Idea: #145 previously conveyed to or by the individual.
http://home.mysoul.com.au/grapple/Chronicles/freeEnergy.html#145
- dolf
On 18/10/07 8:43 PM, in article 1192704214.626847.124790@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com, "ScottyFLL"
>> Re: immoral choice or birth defect > > I would guess that you are both. Qazfez - 18 Oct 2007 22:31 GMT >> Re: immoral choice or birth defect > > I would guess that you are both. The way that question was posed, your suggestion does not make sense.
ScottyFLL - 19 Oct 2007 03:50 GMT > >> Re: immoral choice or birth defect > > > I would guess that you are both. > > The way that question was posed, your suggestion does not make sense. Sure it does. Think about it.
Dolf Boek - 19 Oct 2007 04:09 GMT Thank-you for your continuing concerns on Mad-cows disease!
The former Health Minister Mrs Marie Tehan at the time of the legislative change as Section 19A (1-2) Crimes Act 1958 (Victoria, Australia) relating to a mitigated risk of a very serious disease which carries a term of imprisonment of 25 years maximum--Subsequently themselves died of sibling associated Creutzfeldt - Jacobs Disease!
That's her excuse, what's yours Qazfez?
 Signature - dolf
For access to my latest work ... Where in the World is all the Free Energy?
Energy and force are entirely different concepts!
http://home.mysoul.com.au/grapple/Chronicles/freeEnergy.html
On 19/10/07 12:50 PM, in article 1192762235.988239.88480@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com, "ScottyFLL"
>>>> Re: immoral choice or birth defect >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Sure it does. Think about it. ScottyFLL - 19 Oct 2007 04:50 GMT > Thank-you for your continuing concerns on Mad-cows disease! I HATE it when people piss off the cows.
Dolf Boek - 19 Oct 2007 05:01 GMT Lack of gun control in America as the right to bear arms and defend oneself is a good thing.
The guns laws are so--because when an American shoots their mouth off and what they say lacks integrity as dichotomist values perspective to be readily capable of putting a bullet to their own head--that's the only integrity to State you have left!
 Signature - dolf
For access to my latest work ... Where in the World is all the Free Energy?
Energy and force are entirely different concepts!
http://home.mysoul.com.au/grapple/Chronicles/freeEnergy.html
On 19/10/07 1:50 PM, in article 1192765807.731687.31640@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "ScottyFLL"
>> Thank-you for your continuing concerns on Mad-cows disease! > > I HATE it when people piss off the cows. dank - 19 Oct 2007 11:21 GMT Dolf Boek wrote...
> Lack of gun control in America as the right to bear arms and defend oneself > is a good thing. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > readily capable of putting a bullet to their own head--that's the only > integrity to State you have left! The disarmed people of the UK are sheeple, and their democratic law & order society is described as Orwellian, the netative utopia created by their most famous writer. Spy satellites catch British motorists eating while driving, while those who eat too much are confined to insane asylums and force-fed government-approved human nutrition pellets to protect the NHS from obesity- related health care expenditures.
Qazfez - 19 Oct 2007 22:36 GMT >> >> Re: immoral choice or birth defect >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Sure it does. Think about it. No it doesn't. You think about it.
Dolf Boek - 19 Oct 2007 22:41 GMT Can't you do something other than languish in semantics, mode and form?
 Signature - dolf
For access to my latest work ... Where in the World is all the Free Energy?
Energy and force are entirely different concepts!
http://home.mysoul.com.au/grapple/Chronicles/freeEnergy.html
>>>>> Re: immoral choice or birth defect >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > No it doesn't. You think about it. ScottyFLL - 20 Oct 2007 00:46 GMT > >> "ScottyFLL" <Scotty...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > No it doesn't. You think about it. I thought about it before I presented it.
You're the one not "getting" it.
Doesn't surprise me.
bobandcarole - 20 Oct 2007 13:34 GMT > > "ScottyFLL" <Scotty...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > - Show quoted text - ScottyFLL or ShittyFLL as he is known in APH is a proven liar and keep in mind that he will netKKKop you if he/she can. Of course he can't netKKKop moi, because I am anonymized to perfection. My usenet longevity is proof positive of that assertion. But keep in mind that he strives to be a pussy netKKKop coward. Why? Because ShittyFLL IS a coward.
My pet monkey lc, recently named "Little c.nt" {Also a netKKKop wannabe} thinks I live in Vancouver. Impotent psycho stalker sniper 308 aka "cap-gun" thinks I live in Virginia. Pathetic colon choker jaye elke thinks I live in Indiana. Which one of the Three Spooges do you think is right? Moe, Larry, Curley or none of the above?
We all remember when a foolishly confident ShittyFLL posted this priceless gem:
"I think we'll be seeing less of bobandcarole around these here parts...at least while I'm around"--faggot ScottyFLL
A tagline for the ages to be sure!
After I shoved his delusional rant down his throat, he lied and said he didn't post it after it was witnessed by everyone. ShittyFLL IS a liar!
We've seen less of faggot ShittyFLL but not me. Just as I knew it would be, of course. He was doomed to failure from day one. And I'll be here.."as long as scotty is around" :-) ShittyFLL IS delusional
His forgeries are well documented. This is ShittyFLLs "screenshot"
http://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcfullpersonaladscreenslz4.jpg
This is the authentic version:
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2849/bcos5.jpg
~~ShittyFLL...usenets biggest sot~~
We can't help but mention the fact that ShittyFLL is a chronic alcoholic as evidenced by his posts in alt.recovery.aa. He has no discipline or self control and that fact is laughable to say the least! . One has to wonder if his babbling tirades regarding me are fueled by 100 proof. :-)
We've established, beyond a reasonable doubt, the fact that scotty WILL lie...about what he posts and about his deviant habits and lifestyle. And he/it will lie about other purveyors of truth like myself. Also we've established the fact that he is a pisshead, which could explain his incoherent babbling and his willingness to believe posts with forged headers are authentic.
He's a proven liar, faggot, forger AND a pussy netKKKop. You can't get much lower than that.
Oh, did I mention he is a flaming homo that ingests sperm and has many disgusting homo/freak fetishes?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.flame.faggots/msg/7a684d3c7919c791?
<Tosses ScottyFLL a five spot>
Have another drink Shitty, this one's on me....
>From the gloryhole that ShittyFLL mans regularly: ~~~"Squirt! Squirt!"~~~~ ROTF!!!!!!
zmsscorpio@yahoo.com scotty33315@yahoo.com ScottyFLL@gmail.com 1scott@lycos.com ScottyFLL@mail2scott.com
"I think we'll be seeing less of bobandcarole around these here parts...at least while I'm around"--faggot ScottyFLL
"I threatened suit, you changed your illegal behavior because you're a scared little pussy, and I let it go"--Documented liar ScottyFLL
http:://groups.google.com/group/alt.abortion/msg/c77847ce4ccc4e4e? dmode=source&hl=en
BTW...when you give him several usenet cockslaps he threatens to sue...ROTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dolf Boek - 20 Oct 2007 16:47 GMT It is said that the Torah text [Exodus 23:20-22] specifically refers to the Archangel Metatron: ³Behold, I send an angel of mercy before you to guard you in the land {Heb. derek}, to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Pay attention before him and listen to (his) voice, and do not rebel against his words, for my holy name is invoked upon him, for he will not forgive or pardon your sins, for my holy name is invoked upon him. But if you listen to the voice of my Memra {ie. The Lord of Sabaoth as the Lord of Hosts, Forces & Authority over Chaos, Memra, Word, Shekinah, Holy Spirit; By Acts of Divine Providence} and do all that it says, I will hate whoever hates you, and I will oppress whoever oppresses you.² [© 1994 The Order of Saint Benedict Aramaic Targum of Neofiti 1: Exodus 23:20-22]
Jesus of Nazareth, in speaking of John the Baptist's ministry, assigns to him the role of this Angel as being the Divine Messenger, in fulfillment of this Torah narrative: ³What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken by the wind? But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft {ie. Gk. malakos} garments? Indeed those who are gorgeously appareled and live in luxury are in the kings¹ courts. But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. This is he of whom it is written: Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way {Gk. hodos} before you.¹ [Exodus 23:20-22] For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.² [Luke 7:24-28]
> My informal view is that perhaps discourse is phenomenal {ie. the conceptual > philosophical doctrine that phenomena only are objects of knowledge, or that > phenomena are only realities as cognition of an appearance or immediate > object of awareness in experience} and that imbued within this narrative is > a truth quotient or soul--a reflexive self preservation of equilibrium. .JackNote: This #22774, Super: #40 - Reversal/ Avoiding Activity; I-Ching: H36 - Sinking Light; Tetra: #68 - Dimming, Ego: #13 - Status/ Loathing Shame; I-Ching: H5 - Delay; Tetra: #17 - Holding Back, Nuance: #14 - Metaphysical Issues/ Praising the Mysterious; I-Ching: H19 - Approaching; Tetra: #9 - Branching Out
.Understanding: Male Idea: #224 has 0 Categories.
--- knee. --- to pierce, penetrate; impress, remember; a male; ram. --- (704 w/f); to step, tread, walk; a going, way; manner; mode of life; lot, destiny. --- white linen, byssus clothes; white bread; pr.n. "Nobleman", "Linen-weaver". --- a wall; an enclosure; a castle; an encampment, pastoral village. --- (784 w/f); pr.n. "People's Burning". --- pr.n. "Moon". --- pr.n. "Odoriferous" or "Balmy". --- to bind. --- a mustering, a census; a charge or mandate; an appointed place or rendezvous; pr.n. "Place of Muster" --- of a gate of Jerusalem.
Female Idea: #176 has 0 Categories.
--- to spread out. --- (736 w/f); pr.n. "Yah Sets Up". --- (986 w/f); to set firmly; to resolve firmly; to advise; to admonish. --- (986 w/f); pr.n. "Counselor". --- a bed; bridal-bed; floor or story. --- (826 w/f); mocking or derision. --- (736 w/f); pr.n. "Barrier" or "Fort". --- (736 w/f & 590); time of appointed season, settled or fixed time; festival; festival offering. --- sucklings or children. --- to be close or tight, to be pressed. --- their eyes. --- Ammonite. --- pr. n. "Burden-Bearer", Amos. --- pr. n. "Voluntary People". --- (826 w/f); to act covertly, to use magic, to conjure; magician, enchanter.
On 20/10/07 11:56 PM, in article C340462B.6B67%dolfboek@hotmail.com, "Dolf Boek" <dolfboek@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Diana > [quoted text clipped - 254 lines] > --- (816 w/f); pr. n. "Son of my Kin" (born of incest), Ammon --- a son > of Lot by his younger daughter, also the descendants of Lot or Ammonites. On 20/10/07 10:34 PM, in article 1192883674.327073.4440@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "bobandcarole"
>>> "ScottyFLL" <Scotty...@gmail.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] > BTW...when you give him several usenet cockslaps he threatens to > sue...ROTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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