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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / October 2007

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Vaccination in one image

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JOHN - 12 Oct 2007 11:38 GMT
http://www.whale.to/v/images/ford.html
drceephd@insightbb.com - 12 Oct 2007 19:23 GMT
> http://www.whale.to/v/images/ford.html

Remember John that the poor, poor docs have been throughly educated,
brainwashed, and indoctinated into the world of the medical monopoly
and given a high place in the chuch of modern medicine.

In addition they have been issed their marching orders: Go forth and
poison the sick into becoming well. For this purpose the docs have
been armed with the hypodermic syringe, the scalpel, and a
prescription pad.

They might take offense at your cartoon showing the mindset of the
medicos.

DrCee
Not a member of the church of modern medicine
Not a member of the medical monopoly
JOHN - 12 Oct 2007 20:23 GMT
> They might take offense at your cartoon showing the mindset of the
> medicos.

Surely not!  Most medicos haven't a clue about the true nature of allopathy
Death - 13 Oct 2007 00:39 GMT
Early research results are a setback in the quest to vaccinate people
against HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. HIV has killed more than 25
million people worldwide since it was identified in 1981, including 550,000
in the United States.

Chris Swingle
Staff writer

(October 11, 2007) - The only clinical trial in the world investigating
whether an HIV vaccine works in people at high risk for AIDS - including 40
in Rochester - has been halted early.

The Merck vaccine didn't prevent HIV infection or slow the disease in those
who became infected, according to preliminary results of this latest
international study.

This setback in the fight to prevent AIDS may have wider implications. Most
other HIV vaccine studies in the pipeline are taking a similar approach,
which is to prompt the body to produce more of a crucial immune cell called
killer T cells.

"It clearly is a disappointment," Dr. Michael Keefer, director of
University of Rochester Medical Center's HIV vaccine trials unit, said
Wednesday. "Frankly, the Merck vaccine looked as good as anything we had in
the test tube."

The STEP study, also known as the HVTN 502 study, began in December 2004
and included 3,000 adults who were HIV-negative when enrolled but who were
considered at high risk for the infection that causes AIDS. Participants
included both men and women. The UR researchers recruited gay men. The
study took 18 months to be fully enrolled, so it wasn't scheduled to end
until mid-2009.

The study was stopped in late September after the first evaluation of
interim results found that about 3 percent of study participants had
developed HIV, both among those who received the vaccine and among those
who received a placebo, or fake vaccine. Neither the volunteers nor the
researchers knew who received which until the end of the study. Keefer said
he wasn't sure whether any Rochester participants developed HIV.

The early global results found that of 741 volunteers who received the
vaccine, 24 developed HIV. Among 762 volunteers who received a placebo, 21
developed HIV.

HIV spreads through unprotected sex and through shared needles among
injected-drug users. No investigational vaccines can cause HIV infection
because no living or killed virus, or pieces of virus, are used.

All study participants were counseled on how to reduce their risk of
getting HIV and given various supplies, such as condoms. Those who became
HIV-infected during the study were referred for evaluation, medical care
and treatment and offered continued immunological and virological follow-up
for an extended period of time.

At this time, there is no proven cure or vaccine for HIV. There are highly
effective treatments to keep people with HIV healthy longer and to delay
the onset of AIDS, which stands for acquired immune deficiency syndrome.

University of Rochester Medical Center was among 27 STEP study sites in
North America, South America, the Caribbean and Australia. The HVTN 503 or
Phambili study, a trial of the same investigational vaccine among
heterosexual adults, started in January in South Africa and was expected to
be that country's largest with 3,000 participants. It also has been halted.

Earlier this decade, in the first wave of HIV vaccine attempts, researchers
tried to develop an injection that would stimulate antibodies against the
virus. That approach hasn't worked so far.

Keefer said other investigational vaccines show promise. URMC and other
research centers around the world expect to start a new clinical trial in
2008 called PAVE 100 that would involve 9,000 participants at high risk for
HIV.

URMC also is running about a dozen studies of potential HIV vaccines that
showed promise in studies of monkeys. The so-called Phase I studies are
small and test the safety of the vaccines in people. . Vaccines that pass
that test can eventually move to Phase IIB - like the STEP test - to
examine whether the vaccine prevents HIV in high-risk individuals. Positive
results would lead to Phase III trials and, potentially, a licensed
vaccine.

Steven Price, director of prevention services at AIDS Rochester, said
Wednesday, "We're disappointed that the vaccine was not working, but are
encouraged by the tenacity of those doing the difficult work of finding a
vaccine to combat HIV/AIDS. AIDS Rochester will continue to support vaccine
research both locally and globally."

CSWINGLE@DemocratandChronicle.com
JOHN - 13 Oct 2007 07:28 GMT
> Early research results are a setback in the quest to vaccinate people
> against HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. HIV has killed more than 25
> million people worldwide since it was identified in 1981, including
> 550,000
> in the United States.

A vaccine that will never work against a virus that doesn't do anything

for a disease caused by drugs

sounds like a Pharma Production!
David Wright - 13 Oct 2007 20:23 GMT
>> Early research results are a setback in the quest to vaccinate people
>> against HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. HIV has killed more than 25
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>sounds like a Pharma Production!

Sounds like the usual insanity from John Scudamore.  The disease isn't
caused by drugs -- unless we assume that millions of impoverished sub-
Saharan Africans are secret drug abusers.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "Saddam Hussein was a bad man, connected with some incredibly dangerous
     people:  Cheney, Rumsfeld, George Galloway."  -- Marcus Brigstocke
Peter Bowditch - 14 Oct 2007 07:39 GMT
>>> Early research results are a setback in the quest to vaccinate people
>>> against HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. HIV has killed more than 25
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>caused by drugs -- unless we assume that millions of impoverished sub-
>Saharan Africans are secret drug abusers.

I have always been fascinated by the loon claims that AZT causes AIDS,
the evidence being that only people with AIDS take AZT.

I assume that they also think paracetamol causes headaches, accutane
causes acne and plaster casts cause broken legs.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Jan Drew - 14 Oct 2007 07:52 GMT
"Peter Bowditch" loon
Jan Drew - 15 Oct 2007 07:24 GMT
"Peter Bowditch"

     Web  Results 1 - 10 of about 3,700 for myfirstname ratbags.com"
author:loon. (0.39 seconds)
Peter Bowditch - 16 Oct 2007 06:36 GMT
>"Peter Bowditch"
>
>      Web  Results 1 - 10 of about 3,700 for myfirstname ratbags.com"
>author:loon. (0.39 seconds)

Are you OK, Jan? We are starting to worry about you because of your
rather bizarre behaviour. I hope that yo haven't fallen off the wagon.
Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Mark Probert - 15 Oct 2007 13:15 GMT
>>>> Early research results are a setback in the quest to vaccinate people
>>>> against HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. HIV has killed more than 25
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I assume that they also think paracetamol causes headaches, accutane
> causes acne and plaster casts cause broken legs.

To accept the nut jobs, one would have to think that AIDS did not exist
before AZT.
Myrl - 15 Oct 2007 21:15 GMT
> I have always been fascinated by the loon claims that AZT causes AIDS,
> the evidence being that only people with AIDS take AZT.
>
> I assume that they also think paracetamol causes headaches, accutane
> causes acne and plaster casts cause broken legs.

It reminds me of the "7" ASSOCIATED deaths to Gardasil.  If someone
dies, and they just happened to have been Gardasil vaccinated.  The
anti-vac folks ADAMENTLY proclaim the "7" ASSOCIATED deaths as proof
of the dangers of the vaccine.  They seem to be willing to do this
even when the actual cause of death appears inconsistent to the
disclosed known side effects of the vaccine.

Those dwelling on the lunatic fringe can be so frightening.
JOHN - 15 Oct 2007 22:09 GMT
> Those dwelling on the lunatic fringe can be so frightening.

Why would that be?

"The people we judge and hate in life are in fact reflections of our
disowned selves."--Dr Hal Stone.
Death - 13 Oct 2007 23:05 GMT
"JOHN" <john@nospam.com> wrote in message

> " Death" <Death@yourdoor.net> wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> sounds like a Pharma Production!

Now what would Pharma be doing in a vaccine trial?
We both know that is done by casino dealers.
drceephd@insightbb.com - 14 Oct 2007 20:31 GMT
> Early research results are a setback in the quest to vaccinate people
> against HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. HIV has killed more than 25
> million people worldwide since it was identified in 1981, including 550,000
> in the United States.

This just proves how poweful big pharma is.  It is the TREATMENT for
the disease that is killing all these people in addition to whatever
disease or diseases they may have.

In developed nations you may get an AIDS test.   Worthless as it is,
people will die for it.

In undeveloped nations you will not get an AIDS test.  You simply have
to be sick with conditions like a fever, weight loss, diarrhea, and
one or two more symptoms to be told you have AIDS.

This is like the "bone of contention" used by the aborigines of
Australia.  The medical men had a bone.  If they disliked you for some
reason, all they had to do was point the bone at you,  you would be
ostricised, and found dead days later.

This is all the modern docs have to do.  They simply point their
finger at you and curse you with AIDS or terminal cancer.  The
believer then slinks off to die.

And we call this modern medicine?

DrCee
Not a member of the medical monopoly
Not a member of the church of modern medicine.
Death - 15 Oct 2007 01:23 GMT
<drceephd@insightbb.com> wrote in message

" Death" <De...@yourdoor.net> wrote:
> > Early research results are a setback in the quest to vaccinate people
> > against HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. HIV has killed more than 25
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the disease that is killing all these people in addition to whatever
> disease or diseases they may have.

That's true enough. Until pharma was invented people
did not have disease or die.

> In developed nations you may get an AIDS test.   Worthless as it is,
> people will die for it.

I've noticed the same thing with tombstones.

> In undeveloped nations you will not get an AIDS test.  You simply have
> to be sick with conditions like a fever, weight loss, diarrhea, and
> one or two more symptoms to be told you have AIDS.

Indeed, it is better to be told you just have fever, weight loss, diarrhea
and 2 or 3 more symptoms and not be told you have aids. We sure
wouldn't want them to think they were sick.

> This is like the "bone of contention" used by the aborigines of
> Australia.  The medical men had a bone.  If they disliked you for some
> reason, all they had to do was point the bone at you,  you would be
> ostricised, and found dead days later.

You do that voo doo, that you do so well

> This is all the modern docs have to do.  They simply point their
> finger at you and curse you with AIDS or terminal cancer.  The
> believer then slinks off to die.
>
> And we call this modern medicine?

No sh.t? All this time I thought someone acquired aids through
specific behavior, who knew: They do that voo doo that they do so well?
JOHN - 15 Oct 2007 10:49 GMT
Good name for a pharma troll!

> That's true enough. Until pharma was invented people
> did not have disease or die.

Close http://www.whale.to/a/dean.html
Death - 15 Oct 2007 22:32 GMT
"JOHN" <john@nospam.com> wrote in message

> " Death" <Death@yourdoor.net> wrote in message
>
> Good name for a pharma troll!

pharma troll, lol, hardly, I'm an undertaker.
I deal with reality on a daily basis.
How should I refer to you, as a spammer or commode?

> > That's true enough. Until pharma was invented people
> > did not have disease or die.

I see sarcasm isn't wasted on you.
Mark Probert - 16 Oct 2007 03:21 GMT
> "JOHN" <john@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> " Death" <Death@yourdoor.net> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I deal with reality on a daily basis.
> How should I refer to you, as a spammer or commode?

It would be nice if you could refer to him as late.

>>> That's true enough. Until pharma was invented people
>>> did not have disease or die.
>
> I see sarcasm isn't wasted on you.
JOHN - 15 Oct 2007 10:45 GMT
>> Early research results are a setback in the quest to vaccinate people
>> against HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. HIV has killed more than 25
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> In developed nations you may get an AIDS test.   Worthless as it is,
> people will die for it.

http://www.whale.to/b/rappoport.html
"My book instead proved that HIV - wherever it came from - was a harmless
retrovirus that was being used as a cover story to explain/conceal an
emerging depopulation operation in the Third World. HIV was also a cover for
other agendas outside the Third World. As long as AIDS is the target of
WHO/UN "humanitarian" efforts, the actual causes - which are easily
reversible - of death in Africa, Asia, and Latin America are allowed to
remain and fester and expand."
Bryan Heit - 15 Oct 2007 14:51 GMT
>> Early research results are a setback in the quest to vaccinate people
>> against HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. HIV has killed more than 25
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the disease that is killing all these people in addition to whatever
> disease or diseases they may have.

While the treatment for HIV is not nice, it works.  Unless you count
having your life expectancy go from 2 years post-infection to 15-20
years "not working".

> In developed nations you may get an AIDS test.   Worthless as it is,
> people will die for it.

You don't test for AIDS, you test for HIV, as AIDS-like symptoms can
have multiple causes - HIV infection, some genetic immune disorders,
cancer, etc.

And HIV tests do exist - and work very well (down to about 50 copies/ml,
extremely sensitive when you consider your average untreated HIV
patients runs thousands of copies per ml).

> In undeveloped nations you will not get an AIDS test.

HIV testing is done all the time in undeveloped nations.  I've been to
many such labs over the course of my carer.

> You simply have
> to be sick with conditions like a fever, weight loss, diarrhea, and
> one or two more symptoms to be told you have AIDS.

Hardly.  Back in the 80's, when we didn't have a test, that was the
definition used as it was the best we had.  That definition died in the
early 1990's - now to be considered HIV/AIDS positive you have to have a
positive HIV test, CD4+ cell counts below 400/ul, plus have evidence of
secondary infections.

Even in undeveloped nations the above standard is used, with the
exception of the CD4+ cell count in some nations (too expensive for the
poorest nations).  PCR testing for HIV is cheap (less the $1/test),
sensitive, and accurate.

Bryan
drceephd@insightbb.com - 15 Oct 2007 19:41 GMT
> drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
PCR testing for HIV is cheap (less the $1/test),
> sensitive, and accurate.
>
> Bryan

Accurate for what?  Kerri Mullis, nobel prize winner for inventing the
PCR, says that using the PCR test for HIV is stupid and worthless.
Listen to Gary Null's interview and listen to all that Mullis has to
say.  You might just learn something.

Do you really think you know more than Mullis?

DrCee
Not a member of the church of modern medicine
Not a member of the medical monopoly
Bryan Heit - 15 Oct 2007 20:47 GMT
>> drcee...@insightbb.com wrote:
>  PCR testing for HIV is cheap (less the $1/test),
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Accurate for what?  

Low rates of false positives and false negatives, and gives an accurate
titer to within ~5%.

> Kerri Mullis, nobel prize winner for inventing the
> PCR, says that using the PCR test for HIV is stupid and worthless.

So?  He is wrong - plain and simple.  Even the best and brightest make
mistakes from time-to-time.  Take Einsteins "cosmological constant" -
from one of the most brilliant men we've seen in a while, and yet a huge
mistake was made on his part.

And if you knew anything about Mullis's past, you'd know he isn't
exactly known for being rational.  From publishing papers on his
personal views of the universe after taking LSD, to denying global
warming, to openly admitting he believes in astrology, to claiming that
he was abducted by aliens, Mullis hasn't exactly shown a great degree of
"stable thought" over the years.

> Listen to Gary Null's interview and listen to all that Mullis has to
> say.  You might just learn something.

That Mullis has spouted off yet more of his nonsense.  Please.

> Do you really think you know more than Mullis?

Depends on the subject.  But his *personal beliefs* in regards to HIV
have been throughly and totally disproven over the intervening decade
since he made his claim.  That is the nature of science - conflicting
and controversial ideas are challenged, tested, and any positive results
incorporated into dogma.  But when those alternative ideas are found to
be false we reject them.

Just as we rejected Mullis's views of HIV, and Einsteins cosmological
constant.

Bryan
drceephd@insightbb.com - 15 Oct 2007 21:18 GMT
> Just as we rejected Mullis's views of HIV, and Einsteins cosmological
> constant.
>
> Bryan

OK, no proof, just your beliefs and comments, and I'll throw in Linus
Pauling for you as incompetent based upon your beliefs.

So, disparage Duesburg for us.

DrCee
Not a member of the medical monopoly
Not a member of the church of modern medicine.
Bryan Heit - 16 Oct 2007 14:54 GMT
>> Just as we rejected Mullis's views of HIV, and Einsteins cosmological
>> constant.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> OK, no proof, just your beliefs and comments, and I'll throw in Linus
> Pauling for you as incompetent based upon your beliefs.

The proof he is wrong is plain and simple - PCR tests for HIV exist, and
are the most commonly used method to determine viral titer.  I've used
them as a part of my own work, its how we determined viral titer for
this study:

http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/full/177/9/6405

Specifically, Figure 1e and 1f.  Those viral loads didn't appear from
nowhere, unlike the "data" you like to quote.

Hell, even wikipedia managed to get it right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_test#Nucleic_acid_based_tests_.28NAT.29

The specific method used is termed "reverse transcriptase PCR", not to
be confused with "real-time PCR", which has the same acronym (RT-PCR).
This type of test did not exist when Kary Mullis made his comments about
HIV - perhaps explaining why he though PCR would be useless for
detecting HIV.

That PCR is used to measure viral loads is a commonly known fact; as
someone who was formerly part of the "medical mafia", you should be
aware of that.

Of course, we all know your claims to having been a part of the medical
field are bogus, which is why you are completely unaware of these basic
facts.

Bryan
Jan Drew - 18 Oct 2007 11:45 GMT
>>> Just as we rejected Mullis's views of HIV, and Einsteins cosmological
>>> constant.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/full/177/9/6405
     Purchase Short-Term Access
     Pay per Article - You may access this article (from the computer you
are currently using) for 1 day for US$10.00.
     Pay for Admission - You may access all content in The Journal of
Immunology Online (from the computer you are currently using) for 14 days
for US$40.00.

> Specifically, Figure 1e and 1f.  Those viral loads didn't appear from
> nowhere, unlike the "data" you like to quote.
>
> Hell, even wikipedia managed to get it right:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_test#Nucleic_acid_based_tests_.28NAT.29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Risk_disclaimer

USE WIKIPEDIA AT YOUR OWN RISK
PLEASE BE AWARE THAT ANY INFORMATION YOU MAY FIND IN WIKIPEDIA MAY BE
INACCURATE, MISLEADING, DANGEROUS OR ILLEGAL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Medical_disclaimer

WIKIPEDIA DOES NOT GIVE MEDICAL ADVICE
Wikipedia contains articles on many medical topics; however, no warranty
whatsoever is made that any of the articles are accurate. There is
absolutely no assurance that any statement contained or cited in an article
touching on medical matters is true, correct, precise, or up-to-date. The
overwhelming majority of such articles are written, in part or in whole, by
nonprofessionals. Even if a statement made about medicine is accurate, it
may not apply to you or your symptoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Legal_disclaimer

WIKIPEDIA DOES NOT GIVE LEGAL OPINIONS
Wikipedia contains articles on many legal topics; however, no warranty
whatsoever is made that any of the articles are accurate. There is
absolutely no assurance that any statement contained in an article touching
on legal matters is true, correct or precise. Law varies from place to place
and it evolves over time - sometimes quite quickly. Even if a statement made
about the law is accurate, it may only be accurate in the jurisdiction of
the person posting the information; as well, the law may have changed, been
modified or overturned by subsequent development since the entry was made on
Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_disclaimer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_America#Government_and_politics

TRust the Government and politics.

> The specific method used is termed "reverse transcriptase PCR", not to
> be confused with "real-time PCR", which has the same acronym (RT-PCR).
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Bryan
Bryan Heit - 18 Oct 2007 16:18 GMT
>>>> Just as we rejected Mullis's views of HIV, and Einsteins cosmological
>>>> constant.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Immunology Online (from the computer you are currently using) for 14 days
> for US$40.00.

As always Jan, all anyone needs to do if they cannot access an article
is send me an e-mail requesting the article - just remove the "nospam"
and it'll go right through.  If I can access it I'll be happy to forward
the PDF version of the paper.

And yes, that offer is open to anyone - even you, John and cee.

Bryan
JOHN - 15 Oct 2007 22:13 GMT
> And if you knew anything about Mullis's past, you'd know he isn't exactly
> known for being rational.  From publishing papers on his personal views of
> the universe after taking LSD, to denying global warming, to openly
> admitting he believes in astrology, to claiming that he was abducted by
> aliens, Mullis hasn't exactly shown a great degree of "stable thought"
> over the years.

Nice bit of ad hominem, ie no argument, and this educated moron knows
nothing about LSD, astrology or aliens, but that is obvious.

You have to admire them when they have killed 400,000 perople with AZT and
yet claim their medicine is effective!

They sure know how to kill people, 780,000 every year before you factor in
cancer and aids chemo

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