Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / August 2007
Question for Martin.
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David Canzi -- non-mailable - 09 Aug 2007 00:56 GMT I'm having trouble reconciling some statements you made in two recent posts. In the first you said:
| Anyone asking me "Do you have HIV" or "Are you HIV positive" | would receive the answer "No." | | And, as I have never been tested for HIV, my answer would be | honest and correct. In the second you said:
| I have specifically mentioned on several occasions I was | diagnosed 'HIV+' twelve and a half years ago. How did you get diagnosed HIV+ without being tested for HIV?
 Signature David Canzi | Eternal truths come and go. |
Flec - 09 Aug 2007 02:53 GMT > I'm having trouble reconciling some statements you made in two > recent posts. In the first you said: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > How did you get diagnosed HIV+ without being tested for HIV? I can't wait to see his bizarre reply!
David Canzi -- non-mailable - 09 Aug 2007 17:55 GMT >> How did you get diagnosed HIV+ without being tested for HIV? > >I can't wait to see his bizarre reply! He said what I expected him to say: that he was tested for HIV antibodies, not for HIV.
Briefly, here is what we know about Martin Jay: He tested HIV+ over 12 years ago, has a CD4 count under 200, cruises in parks, will tell any man there who asks that he isn't HIV+ and, most strangely for a man who says he isn't HIV+, calls his web site www.hiv-poz.co.uk.
He's a walking contradiction. He's not posting here to convince others; he's only trying to convince himself.
 Signature David Canzi | Eternal truths come and go. |
Martin - 09 Aug 2007 18:54 GMT >He said what I expected him to say: that he was tested for HIV >antibodies, not for HIV. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >strangely for a man who says he isn't HIV+, calls his web site >www.hiv-poz.co.uk. Now, perhaps you'd like to introduce yourself and tell us what your interest in HIV is.
>He's a walking contradiction. It's either that or the whole HIV thing is a lie.
> He's not posting here to convince others; he's only trying to >convince himself. Trying to convince myself what?
 Signature <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> Moible: +447939991519
David Canzi -- non-mailable - 09 Aug 2007 20:38 GMT >>He said what I expected him to say: that he was tested for HIV >>antibodies, not for HIV. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Now, perhaps you'd like to introduce yourself and tell us what your >interest in HIV is. I'm a paid agent of the pharmaco-industrial complex, with the specific job of harassing you, Martin.
>>He's a walking contradiction. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Trying to convince myself what? You're trying to convince yourself that "no" is an honest answer when somebody in a cruising area asks you if you're HIV+.
 Signature David Canzi | Eternal truths come and go. |
Martin - 09 Aug 2007 22:14 GMT >>Now, perhaps you'd like to introduce yourself and tell us what your >>interest in HIV is.
>I'm a paid agent of the pharmaco-industrial complex, with the >specific job of harassing you, Martin. Thanks for your honesty.
I've been unable to make telephone calls for about half an hour: I just get a continuous dialtone even after I've dialled the number I wish to call. Have a word with your phone-tapping department and get the problem sorted out, please.
Oh, and you might want to reeducation my HIV consultant. Tell him I have a copy of the form he recently completed about me and he's wondered severely off-message. Anyone reading it could be forgiven for thinking he doesn't believe in HIV either.
 Signature <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> Moible: +447939991519
David Canzi -- non-mailable - 09 Aug 2007 23:58 GMT >>>Now, perhaps you'd like to introduce yourself and tell us what your >>>interest in HIV is. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Thanks for your honesty. I figured that, since you were going to say it sooner or later, I might as well skip some unnecessary steps in the usual choreography and get to the end of the dance sooner.
>I've been unable to make telephone calls for about half an hour: I >just get a continuous dialtone even after I've dialled the number I >wish to call. Have a word with your phone-tapping department and get >the problem sorted out, please. Call British Telecom's customer service number -- from the nearest pay phone if necessary. Our operators are standing by to intercept your call.
 Signature David Canzi | Eternal truths come and go. |
Nick Chan - 10 Aug 2007 02:29 GMT what care what others think alternatives cannot proof hiv does not exists. mainstream cannot proof hiv exists. the argument will be no ending. just focus on educating based on your belief and ignore unconstructive criticism.
> >In article <ukkmb3lbaf1qlul0fk5jskqngna4cd7...@4ax.com>, > >>Now, perhaps you'd like to introduce yourself and tell us what your [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> > Moible: +447939991519 monty1945@lycos.com - 10 Aug 2007 04:39 GMT "If I had fever and chills along with coughing, headache, congestion, aches/pains and exhaustion, what would be a good guess as to what I am suffering?"
This is too general, but it's likely that in an "infectious disease" context most if not all of these symptoms are due to the inflammatory molecules that are generated.
If the "orthodoxy" fears that the "dissidents" have the potential to do so much damage to public health, all they need to do is to find someone who tests very high on the "viral load" test, take a sample, look at it under an EM (without "stimulating" the sample), and there should be an abundance of particles that are the correct shape and size for "HIV," according to the textbooks (at the same time, a control sample should also be examine in the same way, from a person with a similar lifestyle, but said to be "HIV negative"). It would certainly cause me to rethink my understanding of the phenomena in question if this was the result, confirmed by at least two labs that document every step of the process, have all those involved sign an agreement holding them liable for the accuracy of the process, and have no conflicts of interest. If I thought the "orthodoxy" were correct, I would urge those who could do so in order to demonstrate that our claim has some real evidence for it. The fact that this has not been done, actually, demonstrates (to me, as an academic, and to many of those I talk to about this) that these individuals are not especially interested in "public health," nor the science of the phenomena, but merely in maintaining the status quo. Hopefully, everyone here realizes the conflicts of interest involved among many who argue for the "HIV/AIDS" claim. To have such conflicts and not to do experiments that would go a long way to demonstrating that there is some direct evidence for your claim is what I consider to be the apogee of academic dishonesty.
On a different note, other scientists (not concerned about "HIV/AIDS" specifically), have determined what really does cause "AIDS." Though it is more complex than this, the passage from the report below is a good description for the general public, in terms of what I call "classic AIDS," meaning the immune system difficulties that lead to the dangerous "opportunistic infections:"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070802182038.htm
QUOTE: Scientists have discovered that at the same time the immune system is vigorously attacking invading viruses or bacteria, it is unexpectedly reducing its production of a particular type of factor that directs the movement of immune cells.
The new finding, which could help explain the transient immune suppression often seen during acute infections, shows that the immune system is even more complex than previously believed...
The findings could help scientists devise better dosing schedules for multi-dose vaccines and also could provide a better understanding of how the immune system responds to multiple infections. A likely result is a lowering of the body's ability to respond to a second infection.
"If you have an acute viral infection, your immune system may be suppressed in its ability to respond to secondary infections during that brief period," Dr. Mueller says. "If you have a nasty flu infection in the lung, for example, you are more susceptible to secondary bacterial infections, and this chemokine reduction could contribute to that..."
"The discovery of this basic phenomenon - that these lymphoid chemokines are reduced during an immune response - was quite a shock to us. It illustrates another dramatic level of complexity in the immune system and demonstrates in greater detail how the traffic of immune cells is regulated."
Dr. Mueller believes the down-regulation of lymphoid chemokines, which occurs for a one- to two-week period during the height of an immune response, may be the body's way of shutting down the immune response and avoiding excessive and damaging inflammation. In addition, reducing these immune factor could be beneficial for the immune cells that are actively responding to a virus, he points out.
IIn a massive inflammatory response to infection, many immune cells divide into great numbers of cells, Dr. Mueller explains. Once the immune response is complete, 95 percent of those cells die and leave a smaller population of memory cells to circulate in the body and protect against subsequent infections by that same pathogen... UNQUOTE.
Death - 10 Aug 2007 18:46 GMT > "If I had fever and chills along with coughing, headache, congestion, > aches/pains and exhaustion, what would be a good guess as to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > context most if not all of these symptoms are due to the inflammatory > molecules that are generated. Classic signs and conditions of the...... flu.
My question was/is :
If you were standing next to me while I hacked and coughed while shaking, would you move to a safe distance or stand there?
The obvious answer is, I should not have been standing near anyone to expose them to the flu. I should not have placed you in a position where you had to take any action.
How much greater is the danger of someone infected with HIV walking around having sex with unsuspecting people and lying or saying nothing about their condition.
At least the flu gives a warning of its presence.
Brian Mailman - 09 Aug 2007 19:19 GMT > Briefly, here is what we know about Martin Jay: He ... cruises in > parks, will tell any man there who asks that he isn't HIV+ ... One might think that the other Death/Diablo/brainfart socks would be piling on with that kind of info and they'd be battling over "faggotry" and how Martin should be quarantined for that kind of behavior. But they *do* seem to get along...
> He's a walking contradiction. Isn't that a Simon and Garfunkel lyric?
B/
Death - 09 Aug 2007 19:40 GMT "Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message
> One might think that the other Death/Diablo/brainfart socks would be > piling on with that kind of info and they'd be battling over "faggotry" > and how Martin should be quarantined for that kind of behavior. But > they *do* seem to get along... Quarantined for what ? Martin claims he does not have HIV. I think being a little tyrant, it is you who would have people shut up and locked away on your fanciful whims.
On the other hand, if Martin is HIV positive and he is out infecting other faggots, I have no problem with that either.
To date, Martin has not been a smart-assed-punk when addressing anyone, and he has been given like responses.
You faggot insist on insisting I use socks, which is a faggot lie. I have no need to use another name, I give my opinion openly and often, and stand behind all that I list.
David Canzi -- non-mailable - 09 Aug 2007 20:26 GMT >> Briefly, here is what we know about Martin Jay: He ... cruises in >> parks, will tell any man there who asks that he isn't HIV+ ... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and how Martin should be quarantined for that kind of behavior. But >they *do* seem to get along... I don't know how Death and Diablo will or would react: mostly I don't see their postings.
>> He's a walking contradiction. > >Isn't that a Simon and Garfunkel lyric? Kris Kristofferson. I tried to avoid using such a recognizable song lyric, but all the alternatives to it were worse.
 Signature David Canzi | Eternal truths come and go. |
Brian Mailman - 10 Aug 2007 20:06 GMT >>> Briefly, here is what we know about Martin Jay: He ... cruises in >>> parks, will tell any man there who asks that he isn't HIV+ ... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I don't know how Death and Diablo will or would react: mostly I > don't see their postings. I tried that, but he just keeps on morphing to evade killfiles.
>>> He's a walking contradiction. >> >>Isn't that a Simon and Garfunkel lyric? > > Kris Kristofferson. Ah. I knew it sounded familiar, though.
B/
David Canzi -- non-mailable - 10 Aug 2007 22:22 GMT >> I don't know how Death and Diablo will or would react: mostly I >> don't see their postings. > >I tried that, but he just keeps on morphing to evade killfiles. Death and Diablo are, in my opinion, two different people. Death doesn't morph. Diablo does. Something in my kill file is suppressing Diablo's postings in spite of his morphing, but I don't know what.
 Signature David Canzi | Eternal truths come and go. |
Death - 12 Aug 2007 20:05 GMT "Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message
> I tried that, but he just keeps on morphing to evade killfiles. LOL, another take it up the a.s faggot lie. With all these names you claim I have, surely you can provide just one as proof of your statement.
I enjoyed the last attempt, that one put me in California and Kansas at the same time.
You see, faggots do earn their name daily.
Martin - 09 Aug 2007 13:03 GMT >I'm having trouble reconciling some statements you made in two >recent posts. In the first you said: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >How did you get diagnosed HIV+ without being tested for HIV? Twelve and a half years ago I popped along to my local STD clinic and asked for an "HIV test," as all gay men are urged to do.
The clinic disregarded my request and gave me what they refer to as an 'HIV antibody test,' and a few weeks later I was told I have HIV and labeled HIV+.
Have I ever been tested for HIV? No.
Does an 'HIV antibody test' indicate current HIV infection? No.
Does an 'HIV antibody test' indicate previous HIV infection? Someone will have to find HIV before that question can be answered.
 Signature <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> Moible: +447939991519
Death - 09 Aug 2007 15:20 GMT If I had fever and chills along with coughing, headache, congestion, aches/pains and exhaustion, what would be a good guess as to what I am suffering?
If I stood next to you in that condition:
Would you move away or just stand there chatting with me?
Martin - 09 Aug 2007 18:01 GMT >If I had fever and chills along with coughing, headache, congestion, >aches/pains and exhaustion, what would be a good guess as to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Would you move away or just stand there chatting with me? That would depend on whether I was attracted to you or not.
I was at a meeting with my HIV consultant a few months ago. Part way through a female doctor joined us to ask his advice about a patient she was dealing with.
The female doctor was sniffling and wiping her nose with a bit of tissue throughout her conversation with my consultant. I remember thinking at the time that, perhaps, she shouldn't be hanging around patients with immune system problems.
 Signature <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> Moible: +447939991519
David Canzi -- non-mailable - 09 Aug 2007 17:11 GMT >>I'm having trouble reconciling some statements you made in two >>recent posts. In the first you said: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >'HIV antibody test,' and a few weeks later I was told I have HIV and >labeled HIV+. Elsewhere you said: "My 'CD4 count' is below 200. This is the sole reason I've been advised and pressured into taking HIV medication."
But it turns out that wasn't the *sole* reason after all.
 Signature David Canzi | Eternal truths come and go. |
Martin - 09 Aug 2007 18:14 GMT >>Twelve and a half years ago I popped along to my local STD clinic and >>asked for an "HIV test," as all gay men are urged to do. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >But it turns out that wasn't the *sole* reason after all. Presumably you're referring to this thread: <http://groups.google.co.uk/group/misc.health.aids/browse_thread/thread/164dc9e3f 5343bba/69b103a40626d78c?#69b103a40626d78c>.
Earlier I mentioned the follow in it:
"I have specifically mentioned on several occasions I was diagnosed 'HIV+' twelve and a half years ago."
 Signature <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> Moible: +447939991519
Flec - 11 Aug 2007 08:48 GMT >>>Twelve and a half years ago I popped along to my local STD clinic and >>>asked for an "HIV test," as all gay men are urged to do. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > "I have specifically mentioned on several occasions I was diagnosed > 'HIV+' twelve and a half years ago." 12 and half years is nothing.....are you still trying to get disaility payments for a conditons to claim not to have?
"My doctor and the UK government disagree with you. I've recently had my application for disability benefit turned down because I am well."
Martin - 11 Aug 2007 15:24 GMT >> "I have specifically mentioned on several occasions I was diagnosed >> 'HIV+' twelve and a half years ago."
>12 and half years is nothing.....are you still trying to get disaility >payments for a conditons to claim not to have? That's twelve and a half years ago I was diagnosed "HIV+." You refer to that amount of time as "nothing." What amount of time would you consider "something?"
>"My doctor and the UK government disagree with you. I've recently had >my application for disability benefit turned down because I am well." Yes, that decision is being appealed against. Perhaps if I was allowed onto the HIV gravy train I might pop back into the cupboard under the stairs and be quiet.
 Signature <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/> Moible: +447939991519
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