Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / May 2004
10 Minute Rapid HIV Test
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Jack7 - 14 Apr 2004 13:06 GMT On December 23, 2003, FDA approved the Uni-Gold Recombigen HIV rapid HIV test, a single use rapid test for the detection of antibodies to HIV-1 in plasma, serum and whole blood (venipuncture). It is the first device to be FDA-approved for use with all three sample types.
Uni-Gold Recombigen HIV is intended for use in point of care settings as an aid in diagnosis of infection with HIV-1. Use of Uni-Gold Recombigen HIV is restricted to clinical laboratory professionals in facilities having an adequate quality assurance program. The test is not approved to screen donors of blood, plasma, cells or tissues, or for home use.
Uni-Gold Recombigen HIV provides results in 10 minutes. It was approved by the FDA on the basis of clinical trial results demonstrating test sensitivity of 100% and specificity of over 99.7%.
Test subjects must receive the "Subject Information Leaflet" prior to specimen collection, and appropriate counseling when test results are provided.
Positive test results require confirmation. The test is suitable for use in appropriate multi-test algorithms designed for the statistical validation of rapid HIV test results.
Product labeling will be available in the coming weeks at http://www.fda.gov/cber/products/testkits.htm The Uni-Gold Recombigen HIV test is made by Trinity Biotech plc of Bray, Ireland and distributed in the U.S. by Trinity Biotech USA, Jamestown, NY.
01/05/04
Source US Food and Drug Administration
agere_contra - 14 Apr 2004 16:46 GMT Thank you for the heads-up on this Jack.
"It was approved by the FDA on the basis of clinical trial results demonstrating test sensitivity of 100% and specificity of over 99.7%."
Did the FDA's clinical trial results calibrate the sensitivity/specificity of the rapid test against the viral gold standard: that is, against an isolate of the HIV virus itself? Alternatively: was the rapid test calibrated against any test which itself has been calibrated against an isolate of the HIV virus ?
To answer my own question: after twenty years there is still no test for HIV that has been calibrated against the viral isolate.
Without reference to this "gold standard" we can know nothing about a viral test's specificity. Without gold standard calibration the FDA's figures are strictly meaningless. Without calibration every reactive HIV test ever carried out might be a false positive. Calibration against viral isolate is *absolutely required* .
Newcomers to this board may wonder why someone just doesn't calibrate a test, any test, against an isolate of HIV.
There is a really good reason why no-one has ever done this. No-one has yet managed to isolate the virus.
We have to ask ourselves why twenty years of extremely well-funded research the AIDs industry has failed to produce a candidate virus particle and then show that that particle is able to replicate in a virus like manner. This is a basic first step of clinical epidemiology and is conspicuous by its absence.
David Canzi - 14 Apr 2004 18:32 GMT >Thank you for the heads-up on this Jack. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Without reference to this "gold standard" we can know nothing about a >viral test's specificity. If you apply the test to 10,000 people -- *any* 10,000 people -- and get 30 positive results, the number of false positives is 30 or less.
You can set a lower bound on specificity -- you don't know the actual specificity but you can know that it's at least 99.7% -- without any magical super-reliable super-accurate "gold standard" HIV test.
 Signature David Canzi All it takes to keep a controversy going is one chronically wrong idiot who won't shut up. A controversy is not evidence that there are actually two sides worth hearing.
agere_contra - 15 Apr 2004 20:26 GMT Good question.
Imagine that we have developed a test for "Garge River Virus". This is a madeup virus for the purpose of analogy.
Take 10,000 superfit, well-fed people who have applied for the Italian airforce. You test them with your Garge Fever antibody test kit and get (say) 30 reactions from those 10,000 people.
You take the same test to subsaharan Africa and try it on 10,000 people with exposure to endemic diseases, poor food and living conditions leading to stressed immune systems, high incidence of sickle cell, "sticky blood", inherited high protein counts in the blood, whatever. You get (say) 3000 reactions.
You see the problem. Do all these 3000 people have the Garge Virus? Or do you have a non-specific test that didn't react with the Airforce candidates (presumed healthy people with a bland blood-protein profile) but which is reacting furiously with the very different blood-protein profile of your second test cohort?
When we measure specificity for a viral test we are trying to find out how frequently reactions occur in individuals who do NOT have the virus infection.
So we need a large, heterogenous group to test - including sick people. Some symptomatic sick people assumed to have the virus and others assumed not to. We also need to calibrate the test by checking for the prescence or absence of the virus in each and every case.
We take the blood samples from our 10,000 testees and determine what the test we are calibrating predicts for each sample. We ALSO check each blood sample for the presence or absence of the virus. But we cannot use the uncalibrated test for the virus check: that would be an exercise in inanity. We must check for virus from each sample using a formal technique. EM's of samples showing virus which matches EMs of the formally isolated virus in tandem with PCR cloning from sample using the formally isolated virus as primer.
If (using calibration against virus) we find 30 out of 10000 who test positive but who's blood sample shows no virus then we have some real data at last. We might say that the specificity is 99.7 for sample populations similar to the test group, which is (sort of) helpful. More usefully we can look at the 30 false positives and perhaps discover some useful facts: e.g. if 29 of them were born in a country with endemic malaria then there is a obvious pointer for a followup study.
To date no-one has calibrated an antibody test for HIV against the gold standard - the virus being tested for. They would be hard put to do so, as they would be required to reference their results against isolated HIV. The putative HIV virus has yet to be isolated in any lab in the world. Go figure.
To reiterate: we can know nothing about the specifity of a viral test without reference to the gold standard. The specificity might be 100%. It might be 0%. Calibrating the various tests against each other, or against cohorts of presumed-healthy blood donors, or citing repeatability figures as specificity is not good science.
Nick Bennett - 15 Apr 2004 22:13 GMT > To date no-one has calibrated an antibody test for HIV against the gold > standard - the virus being tested for. They would be hard put to do so, as > they would be required to reference their results against isolated HIV. > The putative HIV virus has yet to be isolated in any lab in the world. Go > figure. At the bottom of this posting are two quotes about isolation.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2B525908
I apologise for the length of the posting, but the information is there. There are others out there, but I haven't the time to hunt them down.
I may not have isolated HIV from a prep, but I have made a prep from an isolate ;-)
> To reiterate: we can know nothing about the specifity of a viral test > without reference to the gold standard. The specificity might be 100%. It > might be 0%. Calibrating the various tests against each other, or against > cohorts of presumed-healthy blood donors, or citing repeatability figures > as specificity is not good science. Your "gold standard" is not a tenable approach to validating anything viral. Sorry. Have you tried isolating viruses lately? New viruses, previously unknown to science? Hep C still isn't even culturable, and yet we know enough about that virus to screen for it and eliminated it from the blood donor pool. We have its entire genetic sequence mapped out.
There are other ways and means: PCR, culture. They correlate pretty well:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N1D465908
Bennett
agere_contra - 26 Apr 2004 14:51 GMT How can PCR correlation results be meaningful if we have no isolate to prime the PCR process from?
If we cannot isolate a virus and show replication and pathology then we have no proof of a virus. If we are claiming viral cause for a syndrome, disease (whatever) we need to prove that the virus exists.
It is precisely because soi-disant scientists have been able to claim viral cause (for various syndromes) without formal proof of isolation/replication/pathology that we find ourselves in a era filled with "new viruses, previously unknown to science" that are oh so hard to isolate. Can't culture Hep C - so why are scientists assuming that it exists? Apart from the fact that they'ld lose funding if they didn't?
If we return to formal methods and insist on isolation before we accept viral cause then these modern, exciting, well-funded viruses will simply go away. The causes of various diseases can then be examined critically without the perversion of drug-company funded research.
Nick Bennett - 26 Apr 2004 16:52 GMT > How can PCR correlation results be meaningful if we have no isolate to > prime the PCR process from? Depends on your definition of isolate I guess. Some would say that getting a DNA sequence is the purist form of isolation, and that's not _too_ hard. Easier than growing an unknown virus from scratch anyway, without knowing the ideal cell lines to use, media conditions, temperature etc etc etc.
> If we cannot isolate a virus and show replication and pathology then we > have no proof of a virus. Really? Why do viruses have to be pathogenic?
If we are claiming viral cause for a syndrome,
> disease (whatever) we need to prove that the virus exists. Nope. You can rule out other factors then "Whatever left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." (Sherlock Holmes). Of course minor things like antibody correlations, sequence detection (PCR etc) will all add to it - and in many ways that IS proof of existance.
> It is precisely because soi-disant scientists have been able to claim > viral cause (for various syndromes) without formal proof of > isolation/replication/pathology that we find ourselves in a era filled > with "new viruses, previously unknown to science" that are oh so hard to > isolate. Can't culture Hep C - so why are scientists assuming that it > exists? Apart from the fact that they'ld lose funding if they didn't? LOL! Oh dear, it exists because there's a RNA isolate of the thing. There were plenty of Non-A non-B hepatitis cases that no-one could explain, and then someone isolated a virus sequence that explained them! Detection of antibodies to the proteins that are encoded by the RNA correlates with disease. It's like finding a booklet entitled "how to fly aeroplanes into big buildings" and then seeing suicide pilots follow those exact instructions. It's not a huge leap of imagination to think that one caused the other, without having to "isolate" something like a terrorist cell. Of course that's an imperfect analogy, since the instruction code for a Hep C protein is a damn sight more specific and unique than an instruction booklet.
> If we return to formal methods and insist on isolation before we accept > viral cause then these modern, exciting, well-funded viruses will simply > go away. The causes of various diseases can then be examined critically > without the perversion of drug-company funded research. Why is so much of the discovery done by academic bodies then? Precisely because the drug companies don't want to waste money discovering things that they can't do anything about.
Non alcoholic, Non-A/Non-B hepatitis accounts for over half of all liver transplants in the US. You think we'd like to know why? Ooh! Hep C explains them all. Start screening for Hep C in the blood supply, start looking for it in people presenting so they can stop transmission. Maybe start research for means to prevent reinfection (and the R&D is usually done outside of the pharm companies, by biotech firms who sell their ideas or academics who might not).
Koch's postulates were never perfect even when he created them, and they were way before the idea of viruses so they can't possibly be applied in the letter. They can be applied in the spirit however.
There have been stories of viral causes for all manner of syndromes, including multiple sclerosis, lupus, some cancers, but most of these don't stand up to hard scrutiny. When they do, you hear about it (Hep C, HHV8, HIV etc) when they don't, you don't. If it really was that easy to ascribe viral cause to an illness it'd happen a whole lot more often ;-)
Bennett
agere_contra - 26 Apr 2004 19:38 GMT "Some would say that getting a DNA sequence is the purist form of isolation".
They'ld be wrong. If you take a nucleic sequence from a soup, who knows what you (in fact) have a nucleic sequence of?
"it exists because there's a RNA isolate of the thing."
No. Something exists, granted, but you haven't proven that the source of the nucleic primer is a virus. There are a great many things that are not-virus in culture. How can you tell which bit of the culture any given RNA sample is from unless you are working from an isolate?
If you had a viral *isolate* (i.e. a sample of nothing but one kind of particle which has been shown to act like a virus) and you prime from that, you can indeed use your nucleic information as a fingerprint.
The PCR-technique is a superb biological photocopier. But you have to prove what you are copying comes from a virus. In other words you must establish provenance. This is standard practice for the use of PCR in criminal cases: why do the rules of evidence change for a virus?
The bottom line is: don't assume viral cause for *any* syndrome without proof of virus and proof of pathology.
---
Antibodies to proteins in the blood aren't necessarily anything to do with virus's: foreign proteins in blood can be immunosuppressive and toxic without casting about for a viral cause.
For instance: haemophiliac immunodeficiency (long asserted to be due to HIV in the blood supply) was in fact due to long-term treatment with foreign protein-rich blood: the haemophiliac's transfusions were highly immunosuppressive. The introduction of treatment with pure factor VIII (with no foreign proteins) has had a huge positive impact on the well-being and life-span of haemophiliacs.
---
"When they do, you hear about it (Hep C, HHV8, HIV etc) when they don't, you don't."
No. For instance: the HIV viral hypothesis doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny: we hear about it quite a lot.
GMCarter - 27 Apr 2004 12:31 GMT >"Some would say that getting a DNA sequence is the purist form of >isolation". [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >particle which has been shown to act like a virus) and you prime from >that, you can indeed use your nucleic information as a fingerprint. What makes you think it hasn't been?
>The PCR-technique is a superb biological photocopier. But you have to >prove what you are copying comes from a virus. In other words you must >establish provenance. This is standard practice for the use of PCR in >criminal cases: why do the rules of evidence change for a virus? PCR is not the only technique used to isolate HIV.
snip
>--- > >Antibodies to proteins in the blood aren't necessarily anything to do with >virus's: foreign proteins in blood can be immunosuppressive and toxic >without casting about for a viral cause. "Self" proteins can cause immunological responses. Actually, you get to an interesting piece of the Duesberg nonsense....of course, he realizes HIV exists. But he fantastically claims that once an antibody response is generated, the problem is taken care of. Perhaps he once was a half-decent virologist, but as an immunologist, he's an idiot.
>For instance: haemophiliac immunodeficiency (long asserted to be due to >HIV in the blood supply) was in fact due to long-term treatment with >foreign protein-rich blood: the haemophiliac's transfusions were highly >immunosuppressive. The introduction of treatment with pure factor VIII >(with no foreign proteins) has had a huge positive impact on the >well-being and life-span of haemophiliacs. Nonsense. Factor VIII does not cause AIDS.
George M. Carter
*** For example: Haemophilia. 1998 Jan;4(1):33-40. Related Articles, Links
A longitudinal study of immunological status in Chinese haemophiliacs: importance of the heat viral inactivation of factor concentrates. II. Improvements of CD4/CD8 ratio after treatments with heat-inactivated factor concentrates.
Shen MC, Hu FC, Lin JS, Tsai W, Fon MF, Wang EC.
Department of Medicine, College of Medicine, National Taiwan University, Taipei, Republic of China.
Screened and heated clotting factor concentrates of intermediate purity have been used in Taiwanese haemophiliacs since the end of 1986. A significant improvement of CD4/CD8 ratio during the years 1987-1989 as compared with those during the years 1984-1986 was observed in haemophilia A patients [mean +/- SD (median), 1.191 +/- 0.495 (1.163) vs. 0.880 +/- 0.325 (0.838), P = 0.0020] who were seronegative for human immunodeficiency virus. Almost all patients received an increased amount of factor VIII concentrates and total plasma products since 1987. Multiple linear regression analysis for the association of CD4/CD8 ratio with changes in dosage of plasma products revealed that there was a significant positive association of CD4/CD8 ratio measured during 1987-1989 with dosage of factor VIII concentrate administered during 1984-1986 (P = 0.0230), which is an indicator for changes in viral load, but not with changes in dosage of plasma products, which are indicators for changes in plasma protein intake. Our data indicate that immunological abnormalities after replacement therapy observed in haemophiliacs are mainly attributed to virus infection through infusion of factor concentrates, not to allogeneic proteins existing in plasma products.
*** Haemophilia. 1998 Jan;4(1):33-40. Related Articles, Links
A longitudinal study of immunological status in Chinese haemophiliacs: importance of the heat viral inactivation of factor concentrates. II. Improvements of CD4/CD8 ratio after treatments with heat-inactivated factor concentrates.
Shen MC, Hu FC, Lin JS, Tsai W, Fon MF, Wang EC.
Department of Medicine, College of Medicine, National Taiwan University, Taipei, Republic of China.
Screened and heated clotting factor concentrates of intermediate purity have been used in Taiwanese haemophiliacs since the end of 1986. A significant improvement of CD4/CD8 ratio during the years 1987-1989 as compared with those during the years 1984-1986 was observed in haemophilia A patients [mean +/- SD (median), 1.191 +/- 0.495 (1.163) vs. 0.880 +/- 0.325 (0.838), P = 0.0020] who were seronegative for human immunodeficiency virus. Almost all patients received an increased amount of factor VIII concentrates and total plasma products since 1987. Multiple linear regression analysis for the association of CD4/CD8 ratio with changes in dosage of plasma products revealed that there was a significant positive association of CD4/CD8 ratio measured during 1987-1989 with dosage of factor VIII concentrate administered during 1984-1986 (P = 0.0230), which is an indicator for changes in viral load, but not with changes in dosage of plasma products, which are indicators for changes in plasma protein intake. Our data indicate that immunological abnormalities after replacement therapy observed in haemophiliacs are mainly attributed to virus infection through infusion of factor concentrates, not to allogeneic proteins existing in plasma products.
*** BMJ. 1996 Jan 27;312(7025):207-10. Related Articles, Links
Comment in: BMJ. 1996 Jan 27;312(7025):210-1. Comparison of immunodeficiency and AIDS defining conditions in HIV negative and HIV positive men with haemophilia A.
Sabin CA, Pasi KJ, Phillips AN, Lilley P, Bofill M, Lee CA.
Department of Public Health, Royal Free Hospital School of Medicine, London.
OBJECTIVE--To investigate the hypothesis that high usage of clotting factor concentrate, rather than HIV infection, is the cause of immunodeficiency and AIDS in men with haemophilia. DESIGN--A comparison of AIDS defining conditions and CD4 counts in HIV positive and HIV negative patients with haemophilia matched for usage of clotting factor concentrate. SETTING--A comprehensive care haemophilia centre. SUBJECTS--17 HIV positive and 17 HIV negative male patients with haemophilia A (age range 12-60 at beginning of study period) who had received similar amounts of clotting factor concentrate yearly over the years 1980-90. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES--Clinical events listed as AIDS defining in the Centers for Disease Control AIDS definition; CD4 lymphocyte counts; death. RESULTS--Of 108 HIV positive male patients with haemophilia A, only 17 could be matched to an HIV negative patient. This was due to the much higher average usage of factor VIII in the HIV positive group. Between 1980 and 1990, 16 clinical events occurred in nine of the 17 HIV positive patients. No event occurred in the 17 HIV negative patients. In each pair the mean CD4 count during follow up was, on average, 0.5 x 10(9)/l lower in the HIV positive patient. CONCLUSION--These data reject the hypothesis that high usage of clotting factor concentrate, rather than HIV infection, is the cause of immunodeficiency and AIDS in men with haemophilia.
Nick Bennett - 28 Apr 2004 01:28 GMT > "Some would say that getting a DNA sequence is the purist form of > isolation". > > They'ld be wrong. If you take a nucleic sequence from a soup, who knows > what you (in fact) have a nucleic sequence of? You take a look at the sequence and see what it tells you it is! The beauty of the genetic code is that is can be decoded. The sequence of proteins, and the sequences of amino acids in the proteins, can tell you what you've found. Entire HIV genomes have been sequenced in this way: not small primers or chunks, but whole 10kb genomes. I've amplified 12kb HIV constructs using the same techniques (9000+ bases of HIV, plus about 3000 bases of control sequences used in cloning the virus).
> "it exists because there's a RNA isolate of the thing." > > No. Something exists, granted, but you haven't proven that the source of > the nucleic primer is a virus. There are a great many things that are > not-virus in culture. How can you tell which bit of the culture any given > RNA sample is from unless you are working from an isolate? You can look at the sequence and see what it is. Telling whether it's from the host cell or not is relatively easy (eg you use the amplified sequence as a detection agent in normal and infected cells, to see if it's there all the time or not). If I see the protein sequence AEAMSQVTNSATIM then I _know_ it's the HIV-1 p2 region of the Gag polyprotein. I even know that some isolates have TATIM at the end instead. I can see that the HIV-2 sequence AEALKEVIGPAPIP is similar enough to warrant being called p2, even though the main reason for doing so is that it's in the same region of Gag (between CA and NC).
When I saw the sequence KKKYRLKH come out of my mutant virus cultures, I knew enough to recognise the sequence as some kind of nuclear localisation signal, and a short literature search later pinned it down at the nuclear-localisation sequence of Matrix in HIV.
The best thing to do is take this sequence and see if you can make more of it, like a virus would. Look under EM for particles, look on polyacrylamide gels for proteins and see if these proteins react with serum from putatively "infected" people, versus uninfected controls. This is how Hep C is "grown" these days, by taking the sequence of the virus and putting it into cells artificially. You get a single cycle of replication at least, or a continual expression of virus, depending on the conditions. Imperfect but a damn fine proof of this sequence encoding a virus.
Purification doesn't have to be perfect either, just good enough. If you can show that from your prep you have only one type of nucleic acid and if that DNA or RNA looks viral, then regardless of whatever else is in the prep (membranes, protein etc) you've got yourself a virus prep. Use that prep in a culture method and if you get more "virus" out, you're all set! You don't need to look specifically for alternate RNA or DNA, there are general assays that look for ALL nucleic acid in a prep. In the very very early days of retroviral discovery this was in fact how they came to discover the size of the genome, by finding one particular RNA molecule of one size in viral preps. They had no idea what the RNA looked like or encoded, they just knew that something other than the cell was producing a uniform RNA molecule - and the only candidate for that is a viral genome.
If you take your prep, put it onto cells, and it makes more of the same, that's replication. Then begins all the fun of trying to work out from scratch what the RNA encodes. These days it's a lot faster and easier: the SARS coronavirus was sequenced from scratch in a matter of weeks or so as I recall, once they had a prep. Then they not only knew it was a coronavirus, but could place it in a family tree of other viruses to try to work out where it came from.
Obviously doing a PCR from an unpurified culture fluid is silly, which is why it's not the best way to do things. However, once you have your proof of the existance of an exogenous virus then you should have no problem is using the technique on crude samples. Do car manufacturers reinvent the internal combustion engine for every model, or do they just cut and paste the shortcuts from previous discoveries?
> If you had a viral *isolate* (i.e. a sample of nothing but one kind of > particle which has been shown to act like a virus) and you prime from > that, you can indeed use your nucleic information as a fingerprint. That's ideal, but not necessary. And besides, it's been done! There are plenty of viral isolation papers out there: the fact that they're more recent that the original discovery doesn't detract from the original discovery. Like I said, one kind of particle is (a) not necessary, if the rest are obviously NOT doing anything, (b) not feasible, especially in the case of lytic viruses that create a lot of cell debris (c) replacable if you can show you have one nucleic acid sequence.
> The PCR-technique is a superb biological photocopier. But you have to > prove what you are copying comes from a virus. In other words you must > establish provenance. This is standard practice for the use of PCR in > criminal cases: why do the rules of evidence change for a virus? They don't: in the same way as you have to have a DNA fingerprint for a suspect, you have to know your DNA fingerprint for the virus versus the host. Basically, if you can show that it isn't the host then by reduction it must be something else.
You and I are really saying the same thing, it's just that I have different criteria for what I consider sufficient for ruling out other options like cellular contamination etc. Basically if you include controls, you have your contamination ruled out. If all your samples turn positive, then you're hypothesis that this is a unique sequence is wrong. It's done all the time, it's just that negative results don't tend to get published. They also don't get mentioned by the media or in praysees of articles. When a headline says "New virus found in disease X!" it also means, by implication, "New virus not found anywhere else!"
Of course some dissidents, including Duesberg, completely fail to grasp the simple concept of a chronic infection causing disease. But that's their problem I guess. In that case the new virus is found in people who _eventually_ get the disease.
> The bottom line is: don't assume viral cause for *any* syndrome without > proof of virus and proof of pathology. Not really a workable practise. In real life, viral cause is assumed for nearly EVERY syndrome that looks infectious and has no other readily identifiable cause. The reason...what else is there? Bacteria, viruses, and now of course prions. But they're weird.
What makes things look infectious? Epidemiology, transmission characteristics, or more simple things like fever and a high lymphocytosis (fever and a high neutrophil count being more characteristic of a bacterial illness).
Some things cause problems: odd bacteria like TB and mycoplasma, fungi and the like, but if you suspect these they're generally things you can look for (literally, do a culture or microscopy). Viruses are buggers because they often need very specific culture media (ie a particular cell type, just like in the real infection of a host) and are too small to detect directly. They are usually diagnoses of exclusion unless there are techniques to look for them specifically, and a need to look for them. People don't have a quick and easy way to diagnose adenovirus infection (no need, it's usually a self limiting throat or nasal illness and you can't treat it anyway) whereas there is a PCR you can perform on spinal tap fluid for herpes simplex (a cause of potentially fatal or damaging encephalitis, and it's treatable with a one-drug regimen).
> --- > > Antibodies to proteins in the blood aren't necessarily anything to do with > virus's: foreign proteins in blood can be immunosuppressive and toxic > without casting about for a viral cause. Foreign proteins? Where from? They have to be either added exogenously or by an infectious agent.
> For instance: haemophiliac immunodeficiency (long asserted to be due to > HIV in the blood supply) was in fact due to long-term treatment with > foreign protein-rich blood: LOL! Oh dear, I don't think so.
the haemophiliac's transfusions were highly
> immunosuppressive. The introduction of treatment with pure factor VIII > (with no foreign proteins) has had a huge positive impact on the > well-being and life-span of haemophiliacs. So Factor VIII made from bacteria is better than factor VIII from humans? Heheh. George I see has dealt with this anyway. The fact that almost ALL hemophiliacs were infected with this virus has nothing to do with it, in your opinion? This despite the fact that hemophiliacs treated with the same stuff for years before HIV was transmitted to them were doing remarkably well?
I won't disagree that transfusions can be immunosuppressive, but factor VIII isn't _quite_ a transfusion. I can also accept that in its own way factor VIII administration _might_ cause immune upsets, but it's sure as hell not going to cause a selective deficit in ONE T cell type. That's just too weird. Far easier to see how a virus that selectivly infects, kills, disrupts and disorganises a particular T cell type causes disease.
Hep B virus infects liver cells, but does not itself cause the cells to die and result in hepatitis. Does this mean that Hep B doesn't cause hepatitis??! A tiny minority of "virus" particles are actually infectious virus, most are fragments of cell membrane coated in viral protein. Hep B also encodes a reverse-transcriptase enzyme! Oh my god, it's a conspiracy of Reversiviruses!
Or perhaps the damage is caused by the normal immune response to the infection, and perhaps the excess of particles are an evasion mechanism. Seems odd how a single protein vaccine can prevent Hep B infection and hepatitis...
> --- > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No. For instance: the HIV viral hypothesis doesn't stand up to any kind of > scrutiny: we hear about it quite a lot. Only here, trust me. In the literature where it's tested every time they do a trial or cohort study then it's less of an issue. Only incompetant or disingenuous oddballs like the Perth Group cherry-pick the literature to support anything else.
Like I said before, your underlying premise is a good one, but not workable and unnecessary. Viruses fall through the gaps in classical medicine and science for all sorts of reasons: mostly centred around the fact that they are non-living parasitic collections of chemicals. I mean, how could an outside observer even predict their existance? They're the stuff of science-ficiton, which is why I went into virology :o)
Bennett
GMCarter - 28 Apr 2004 10:44 GMT Yay, Nick! Thanks....
couple little things....
snip
>When I saw the sequence KKKYRLKH come out of my mutant virus cultures, I >knew enough to recognise the sequence as some kind of nuclear localisation >signal, and a short literature search later pinned it down at the >nuclear-localisation sequence of Matrix in HIV. God, and I thought learning devanagari script was hard....
snip...
snip
>I won't disagree that transfusions can be immunosuppressive, but factor >VIII isn't _quite_ a transfusion. I can also accept that in its own way >factor VIII administration _might_ cause immune upsets, but it's sure as >hell not going to cause a selective deficit in ONE T cell type. That's >just too weird. Far easier to see how a virus that selectivly infects, >kills, disrupts and disorganises a particular T cell type causes disease. There are some immunological problems that can arise from factor VIII use, including CD8 lymphocytosis. But that is an INCREASE in one subset, not a steady, persistent decrease--and not altogether surprising from an immunological perspective. Greater purification of factor VIII using recombinant variants reduce this problem, according to some comparative studies.
Not ALL people with hemophilia became infected. The inoculum was relatively low so people with lower concentrations of VIII sometimes escaped. However, those who used greater amounts were almost all infected.
George M. Carter
Nick Bennett - 28 Apr 2004 17:19 GMT > snip > >When I saw the sequence KKKYRLKH come out of my mutant virus cultures, I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > God, and I thought learning devanagari script was hard.... Heheh, sad isn't it. I didn't learn that, it's just something I picked up through reading sufficient papers - pattern recognition. Lysine run, highly basic region, it was ringing too many bells. When I found out it was the MA nuclear localisation signal I actually shouted out loud, because the implications were so cool. If I had to pick ONE region in MA for my virus to mutate in, it would have been there.
Thanks for the added info on hemophiliacs. It really was a sad iatrogenic story: and the trouble is that unless we know what to look for there's no reason why it can't happen again somewhere else.
Bennett
agere_contra - 21 May 2004 17:53 GMT Nick: on this vexed question of "purification by RNA"
It would be a shrewd technique, except that an exogenous retrovirus (i.e. a foreign viral entity) is only one possible explanation for the existance of a novel nucleic acid in culture.
You could be looking at the genome of an endogenous retrovirus: i.e. a chunk of RNA present in the cellular DNA, passed down the parental line. This would express e.g. in mitogenic culture conditions.
You could also be looking at the genome of a "new" (but not exogenous) retrovirus assembled by genetic recombination/deletion of endogenous retroviral sequences and/or cellular sequences. Or the novel RNA could be a genome restructured by transposition or retroposition.
Or the novel RNA might have arisen due to some not well understood "genomic shock" mechanism triggered by external stress: e.g. toxin exposure, viral infection, miscegenation. Also, altered surroundings such as those imposed in tissue culture might do it.
Getting a novel RNA in culture simply doesn't prove the prescence or existance of a foreign viral entity. We are required to prove the *provenance* of the RNA. Easy from isolate (but first get your isolate), not possible from a heterogenous mixture.
The claim that a particular stretch of RNA is a unique molecular entity which constitutes the genome of a unique retrovirus can be accepted *if and only if* it is shown that the RNA belongs to particles with the morphological, physical and replicative characteristics of retroviral particles. Proof of this can only be obtained by isolating the retrovirus particles (i.e. getting them separate from everything else) and then analysing.
Hope this is helpful.
Nick Bennett - 27 May 2004 14:59 GMT > Nick: on this vexed question of "purification by RNA" <snip> The trick, of course, is then to look for the sequence in culture or from samples where the cellular DNA isn't removed. Then, in one fell swoop you rule out endogenous sequences or the (highly unlikely) recombination argument.
> Hope this is helpful. Not really :o) These are valid questions and points to make to a layman, and you're entirely right on the limitations, but all of what you said was basically taken "as read" by me. Setting up controls is obvious. By saying "X is exogenous" I'm already assuming that steps have been or will be done to rule out endogenous source. This is standard practise for getting ANY kind of work accepted in the literature. The trouble is I suppose I might not be 100% clear in that when I posted, and for that I apologise.
I've run gels where my experimental lane was one out of 9 samples. Yep, 8 different controls to prove that what I'd "found" wasn't a contaminant, DNA instead of RNA, that the reaction wasn't flawed etc etc. If I'd run a single sample and said "found it!" by boss would have ripped me a new one.
The frustrating thing about most, if not all, of the arguments that get posted to MHA (from isolation, to pathogenesis, to epidemiology) have been addressed, by default, in the literature already. You can't say something like "HIV infection leads to AIDS" without, by definition, proving that AIDS isn't found in the abscence of HIV and that there is a temporal, predictive link. One example, that's all. Occasionally assumptions get made (that HIV which infected CD4 T cells was killing them directly to lead to AIDS, a reasonable assumption) but ongoing work will refine and amend incorrect assumptions. Science doesn't continue blindly on, at least, not all that often :o)
Cheers
Bennett
Dr. Phillip S. Duke - 27 May 2004 20:44 GMT > Or the novel RNA might have arisen due to some not well understood > "genomic shock" mechanism triggered by external stress: e.g. toxin > exposure, viral infection, miscegenation. Also, altered surroundings such > as those imposed in tissue culture might do it. Right. And a monkey sitting at a keyboard "might" type all the great works of literature.
Something like this "might" happen one time, or many times with different results each time. But the genomes of HIV-1, HIV-2 and other lentiviruses are not just random smips of DNA or RNA; they all have the genes of lentiviruses; they are observed to evolve over time; they are observed to be passed from one individual to another heterosexually; etc...
> The claim that a particular stretch of RNA is a unique molecular entity > which constitutes the genome of a unique retrovirus can be accepted *if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > particles (i.e. getting them separate from everything else) and then > analysing. You have it almost EXACTLY backwards. Seeing that the RNA or DNA genome of a virus is in viralparticles tells us exactly nothing about whether the virus was endogenous or exogenous. Almost all living organisms carry endogenous retrovirus and/or retroviral-like elements in our genomes. The human genome contains hundreds of endogenous retroviruses (HERV-K, HERV-H, etc..) and other similar elements (transposable elements).
Looking at a bunch of viruses, whether they are banded in a sucrose gradient or seen budding out of cells in culture, tells us almost NOTHING about the virus. All retroviruses look pretty much alike, which is why the lentiviruses such as HIV-1 have been described as "typical C-type" retroviruses by some authors, when they do not look like typical C-type retroviruses to others. It depends on how mature the particles are (budding, newly released with diffuse core, or mature with a dense cone-shaped core) and how they were treated prior to looking at them via EM.
Serological methods and DNA methods are the only ways to really know what type of virus (endogenous, exogenous, retroviral, lentiviral, etc) you are dealing with. Serological methods have been around since the 1950s at least and greatly improved in the last 40 years with techniques such as monoclonal antibody production. DNA technologies have only really been available since the mid 1970s and they too have greatly improved in recent years (better and cheaper DNA sequencing for example; Maxam-Gilbert technology was a real drag).
If we really had to "see" a gene product, via electron microscopy, in order to know what gene we had cloned, how would we ever have cloned the ras oncogene, the Cystic fibrosis gene, or the delta-32 allele of the CCR5 gene?
If you see the text "Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated" you immediately suspect that this was not random text banged out by a monkey. EM is like looking at that text, in 10 point font, from 300 yards away. It looks like a black line, and indeed it "might" be some random text a monkey typed. But once you get close enough to read it, you learn a lot more. DNA and RNA are just 4 "letters" instead of the 26 we use in English, but all of this text is stored in computers with just two characters "0" and "1" binary data. Southern and Northern blotting are the equivalent of GOOGLE searching. You can find one gene in the entire human genome quite easily.
The people who put up web sites claiming that HIV has not been properly "isolated" know very well that they are misleading people. They are not ignorant of the mehtods used to isolate retroviruses, they just ignore the fact that the methods continue to evolve over the years, such that people workign with viruses in 1990 don't always use exactly the same methods in the same order, as were used in 1960 or 1970 or 1980.
PaulKing - 14 Apr 2004 20:18 GMT EVERYBODY REACTS POSITIVE ON THE ELISA TEST FOR HIV
By Roberto Giraldo
Continuum Midwinter 1998/9
For the last 6 years I have been working at the laboratory of clinical immunology in one of the most prestigious University Hospitals in the City of New York. Here I have had the opportunity to personally run and get to know in detail the current tests used for the diagnosis of HIV status, namely, the ELISA, Western Blott and Viral Load tests.
1. Diluting the serum for the ELISA test.
The ELISA test is a test for antibodies against what is supposed to be the Human Immunodeficiency Virus or HIV. To run this test, an individual's serum has to be diluted to a ratio of 1:400 with a special specimen diluent. According to the test kit manufacturer this diluent contains
0,1% triton X-100, Bovine and Goat Sera (minimum concentration of 5%) and Human T-Lymphocyte Lysate (minimum titer 1:7500). Preservative: 0.1% Sodium Azide (1).
This extraordinary high dilution of the person's serum [400 times] took me by surprise. Most serologic tests that look for the presence of antibodies against germs uses neat serum [undiluted]. For example, the tests that look for antibodies to hepatitis A and B viruses, rubella virus, syphillis, hystoplasma and cryptococus, to mention a few of them, use straight serum [undiluted]. However, to try to prevent false positive reactions some serologic tests use diluted serum; for example this is the case with tests that look for antibodies to measles, varicelia and mumps viruses which use a dilution of 1:16, to cytomegalovirus [CMV] 1:20 and to Epstein-Barr Virus [EBV] 1:10.
The obvious questions are: What makes HIV so unique that the test serum nedds to be diluted 400 times?. And what would happen if the individual's serum is not diluted?.
2. Testing the ELISA test without diluting the serum.
To answer these questions I ran an experiment in a medical laboratory in Yorktown Heights, New York. I ran it using the same test kit reagents that are usually used to run the ELISA test in most clinical laboratories worldwide (1).
I first took samples of blood that, at 1:400 dilution, tested negative for antibodies to HIV. I then ran the exact same serum samples through the test again, but this time without diluting them. Tested straight, they all came positive.
Since that time I have run about 100 specimens and have always gotten the same result. I even ran my own blood which, at 1:400 reacts negative. At 1:1 [undiluted] it reacted positive. I should mention that with the exception of my own blood, the patient samples all came from doctors who requested HIV tests. It is therefore likely that most of the blood samples that I tested belonged to individuals at risk for AIDS.
According to Abbott Laboratories, the absorbance value [yellow color intensity]
develops in proportion to the amount of antibodies to HIV-1 which is bound to the bead (1).
What I noticied is that the absorbance values of the specimens that tested negative when diluted [1:400], but positive when undiluted [1:1], had lower values than the samples that, diluted, react positive on both the ELISA and Western Blott tests. This would probably mean that the blood that is negative when diluted but positive when undiluted has a lower level of antibodies than the diluted blood that is doubly positive and, therefore, may probably test negative on the Western Blott test. However, I have not had the opportunity to check this hypothesis.
The graphic below ilustrates how blood that reacts negative for HIV at 1:400 ratio always turn positive when run at 1:1 [undiluted]. Run of ELISA test for HIV with two different concentrations of the person's serum. (a) Results at 1:400 (b) Results at 1:1 9112324b G5 0.076 --- 9112324b G5 0.262 reactive 9112325b H1 0.081 --- 9112325b H1 0.259 reactive 9112326b H2 0.071 --- 9112326b H2 0.329 reactive 9112327b H3 0.060 --- 9112327b H3 0.401 reactive 9112328b H4 0.073 --- 9112328b H4 0.345 reactive 9112329b H5 0.062 --- 9112329b H5 0.343 reactive 9112330b J1 0.060 --- 9112330b J1 0.234 reactive 9112331b J2 0.077 --- 9112331b J2 0.306 reactive 9112332b J3 0.067 --- 9112332b J3 0.248 reactive 9112333b J4 0.086 --- 9112333b J4 0.222 reactive
Column (a) shows 10 specimens reacting negative at 1:400 dilution. Column (b) shows the same specimens reacting positive at 1:1 dilution.
It is important to note that the Western Blott antibody test for «HIV» also needs serum to diluted. Although it too has an usually high dilution, here the individual serum is only diluted at the ratio of 1:50 (2). I have not yet had the opportunity to run this test with undiluted [1:1] specimens.
3. Discussion.
The following are three possible explanations for why undiluted specimens of blood always react positive at the ELISA test:
3.1. Everybody has HIV antibodies.
It is accepted worldwide that the ELISA test for HIV detects antibodies against what is known as the Human Immunodeficiency Virus (3-4-5-6). And the pharmaceutical company that commercialises the ELISA kits states that
Abbott HIVAB HIV-1 EIA is an vitro qualitative Enzyme Immunoassay for the Detection of Antibody to Human Immunodeficiency Virus Type 1 (HIV-1) in Human Serum and Plasma (1).
Since all undiluted blood specimens react positive on the ELISA test, a test that supposedly tests for antibodies to HIV, the results presented here suggest that every single human being has HIV antibodies. And this suggests that everybody has been exposed to HIV antigens.
This would mean that all of us have been exposed to the virus that is believed to be the cause of AIDS. The people that react positive even at a dilution of 1:400, would be the ones that have had the highest level of exposure to HIV antigens. The rest of the people -the ones that only react positive with undiluted serum [1:1]- would have had a lower level of exposure to HIV.
3.2. Everybody has different levels of HIV infection.
It is also believed worldwide that a person that reacts positive for antibodies against HIV has not only been exposed to but is infected with a deadly virus that causes immunodeficiency (3-4-5-6). Therefore, the positive reactions of all undiluted sera would mean that everybody, or at least all the blood samples that I have tested, including my own, infected with this «deadly» virus. The ones that react positive at a ratio of 1:400 would simply have a higher level of «deadly» infection than the «deadly» infection has by the ones that reacts positive only with undiluted serum.
3.3. The test is not specific for HIV.
The results presented here could also mean that the tests used for detecting antibodies to HIV are not specific for HIV, as has been explained previously (7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14). In this case, there would be reasons other than HIV infection, past or present, to explain why a person reacts positive to it. The test also reacts positive in the absence of HIV (7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14).
The scientific literature has documented more than 70 different reasons for getting a positive reaction other than past or present infection with HIV (7,10,11,14,15). All these conditions have in common a history of polyantigenic stimulations (15,16).
Even Abbott Laboratories is well aware of the specificity problems with the ELISA tesst. This is why they state:
EIA testing alone cannot be used to diagnose AIDS, even if the recommended investigation of the reactive specimens suggests a high probability that the antibody to HIV-1 is present
and
Although for all clinical and public health applications of the EIA both the degree of risk for HIV-1 infection of the person studied and the degree of reactivity of the serum may be of value in interpreting the test, these correlations are impefect. Therefore, in most settings it is appropiate to investigate repeatably reactive specimens by additional more specific or supplemental tests (1).
Interestingly, there are countries like Great Britain where the diagnosis of HIV status is based on the ELISA test alone. No Western Blott or any other test is needed there.
The only proper way for establishing the sensitivity and specificity of a given test is with a gold standard. However, since HIV has never been isolated as an independent purified viral entity (17-18-19), there cannot be a gold standard for HIV. The sensitivity and specificity of the antibody tests for HIV have instead been defined based on the assumption that HIV is the cause of AIDS. In this way,
The Abbot studies show that: Sensitivity based on an assumed 100% prevalence of HIV-1 antibody in AIDS patients is estimated to be 100% (144 patients tested).
and
Specificity based on the assumed zero prevalence of HIV-1 in random donors is estimated to be 99.9/o (4.777 random donors tested (1)).
At present there is no recognized standard for establishing the presence and absence of HIV-1 antibody in human blood. Therefore sensitivity was computed based on the clinical diagnosis of AIDS and specificity based on random donors (1). [Emphasis is mine].
Since there is no scientific evidence that the ELISA test is specific for HIV antibodies, a reactive ELISA test at any concentration of the serum would mean presence of nonspecific or polyspecific antibodies (20). These antibodies could be present in all blood samples. They are most likely a result of the stress response, having no relation to any retrovirus, let alone HIV (21,22). In this case, a reactive test could be a measure of the degree of one's exposure to stressor or oxidizing agents (15,16).
The inevitable conclusion is that all positive reactions for antibodies to HIV are simply false positives. If nobody is positive for HIV, then people who react positive on the ELISA test do so due to something other than HIV.
4. Proposal to find out the real meaning of the «HIV antibody» tests.
To uncover the meaning of these tests I propose a simple experiment: Take blood from three groups of a people and run the tests highly diluted, undiluted and at a wide spectrum of dilutions in between. The first group would be a group of healthy people of many age groups; the second group would be a group of people from the conventional AIDS «risk groups»; the third group would be a group of people with clinical conditions both related and unrelated to AIDS. All groups would be subjected to both the ELISA and Western Blott tests.
Additionally, all blood samples could be subjected to «the viral load test for HIV».
The results of such an experiment could determine whether these test measurements bear any relationship to an individual's level of exposure to stressor or oxidizing agents. If so, the tests could be salvaged as a measure of an individual's level of intoxication.
Let us find the economic support necessary to run this experiment. In the mean time, since people are reacting positive on tests that are not specific for HIV, let's please stop labeling them as «HIV positive».
Acknowledgments.
I want to thank Mr. Albert Padovani, Director of Yorktown Medical Laboratory for permitting me to run the experiments reported here in his laboratory and for providing the reagents for the tests. Also I thank Tom Di Ferdinando Executive Director of Health Education AIDS Liaison (HEAL) in New York City for editing the manuscript for this article and for his valuable suggestions.
Roberto A. Giraldo, MD. Physician, specialist in internal medicine, infectious and tropical diseases. Member of the Boards od Directors of The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis and Health Education AIDS Liaison (HEAL). Independent AIDS Researcher. Author of the book AIDS and Stressors, New York City. E-mail: rgiraldo@cdiusa.com.
References.
(1) ABBOT LABORATORIES. Human Immunodeficiency Virus Type 1. FUVAB FffVI EIA. Abbott Laboratories, 66-8805/R5, january 1997:5. (2) EPITOPE ORGANON TEKNIKA. Human Immunodeficiency Virus Type 1 (fuV-1) . I-UV-1 Western Blott Kit. PN201-3039 revision number 6. (3) FEINBERG MA & VOLBERDING PA. Testing for Human Immunodeficiency Virus. In: COHEN PT, SANDE MA and VOLBERDING PA. The AIDS Knowledge Base. Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1994: section 2. (4) PINS MR. TERUYA and STOWELL CP. Human Immunodeficiency Virus Testing and Case Definition: Pragmatic and Technical Issues. In: COTTON D and WATTS DH. The Medical Management of AIDS in Women. New York. John Wiley & Sons, 1997: 163-176. (5) METCALF JA, DAVEY RT and LANE HC. Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome: Serologic and Virologic Tests. In DEVITA VT, CURRAN J, HELLMAN S, et al. AIDS: Etiology, Diagnosis, Treatment and Prevention. 4th Edition. Philadelphia: Lippincott-Raven, 1997: 177-196. (6) WEISS SH. Laboratory Detection of Human Retroviral Infections. In: WORMSER GP. AIDS and Other Manifestations of FUV Infection. New York: Lippincott-Raven, 1998:175-200. (7) PAPADOPULOS-ELEOPULOS, E., TURNER V. & PAPADIMITROU JM. Is a Positive Western Blott Proof of HIV Infection?. Bio/Technology 1993; 11:696-707. (8) PAPADOPULOS-ELEOPULOS, E., TURNER, V., PAPADIMITROU JM. & CAUSER D. HIV Antibodies: Further Questions and a Plea for Clarification. Curr Med Res Opin 1997; 13:627-634. (9) HODGKINSON N. Science Falls the «AIDS Test» In: AIDS: The Failure of Contemporary Science. How a Virus that Never Was Deceived the World. London: Fourth Estate, 1996:232-262. (10) JOHNSON C. Factors Known to Cause False-Positive HIV Antibody Test Results; Zenger's, San Diego, California, september 1996a:8-9. (11) JOHNSON C. Whose Anitbodies Are There Anyway?. Continuum (London) . September/october 1996b; 4(3) :4-5. (12) TURNER VF. Do Antibody Tests Prove HIV Infection?. Interview by Huw Christie Editor of Continuum. Continuum (London) Winter 1997/1998; 5(2) :10-19. (13) SHENTON J. Positively False: Wrong Tests and Long-Term Survivors. In: Positively False: Exposing the Myths around HIV and AIDS. London: I.B. Tauris, 1998: 238-239. (14) GIRALDO RA. Milking the Market. Will Mothers Dish Out the W.H.O. Formula?. Continuum (London) 1998; 5(4)
:8-10. (15) PAPADOPULOS-ELEOPULOS E. Reappraisal of AIDS - Is the Oxidation Induced by the Risk Factors the Primary Cause?. Medical Hyphotesis 1988; 25:151-162. (16) GIRALDO RA. AIDS ans Stressors U: A Proposal for the Pathogenesis of AIDS. In: AIDS and Stressors. Medellín, Colombia: Impresos Begón, 1997: 57-96. (17) PAPADOPULOS-ELEOPULOS, E., TURNER, V., PAPADIMITROU JM. & CAUSER D. The Isolation of HIV: Has it Really Been Achieved?. The Case Against. Continuum (London) 1996; 4(3) :S1-S24. (18) LANKA S. No Viral Identification: No Cloning as Proof of Isolation. Continuum (London) 1997; 4(5) :31-33. (19) DE HARVEN E. Remarks on Methods for Retroviral Isolation. Continuum (London) 1998; 5(3) :20-21. (20) WING MG. The Molecular Basis for a Polyspecific Antibody. Clin Exp Immunol 1995; 99:313-315. (21) SNYDER HW and FLEISSNER E. Specificity of Human Antibodies to Oncovirus Glycoproteins: Recognition of Antigen by Natural Antibodies Directed Against Carbohydrate Structures. Proc Nat Acad Sci USA 1980; 77:1622-1626.
(22) BARBACID K., BOLOGNESI D. & AARONSON SA. Humans Have Antibodies Capable of Recognizing Oncoviral Glycoproteins: Demonstration that These Antibodies are Formed in Response to Cellular Modification of Glycoproteins Rather than as Consequence of Exposure to Virus. Proc Nat Acad Sci USA 1980; 77:1627-1621.
Jack7 - 15 Apr 2004 17:24 GMT What a crock. It is very specific.
|
|
|