Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / May 2007
CD4+ T cells
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GMCarter - 23 May 2007 01:02 GMT Since Wikipedia was raised, here is a better article. T-helper cells have been known about a lot longer than since 1985, of course.
George M. Carter
*** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_helper_cells
also, an interesting article here: http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/2000/ATN34102.html
Death - 23 May 2007 02:49 GMT "GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_helper_cells > > also, an interesting article here: > http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/2000/ATN34102.html and again, the hypocrite.
JOHN - 23 May 2007 09:50 GMT The second leg of the selection process for poisoning Africans with ARVs is CD4 cell counting, on the premise that such a count indicates a person's immune status, i.e. his health. But as early as April 1994, having employed CD4 cell counts as a surrogate marker for drug efficacy in the Concorde trial, the researchers reported the irrelevance of this laboratory measure and its lack of a correlation to clinical health in Lancet 343(8902):871-81, noting that the results of the study call into question the uncritical use of CD4 cell counts as a surrogate endpoint for assessment of benefit from long-term antiretroviral therapy. Anthony Brink's criminal complaint of genocide laid against Zackie Achmat
It has been known since at least 1993 (when the results of the Concorde AZT study were published), and has been publicly admitted by public health officials, that the CD4 test is worthless; nevertheless, this worthless test is still being used to evaluate the alleged efficacy of toxic and worthless AIDS drugs. 'AIDS: A Death Cult' by John Lauritsen
In order to explain failure to find a retrovirus that directly caused cancer, they claimed to be able to measure the immune system. But this is ridiculous. In the Journal of the American Medical Association, August 28, 1981, it was published that it makes no sense to measure lymphocytes in the blood because only a few of them are in the blood. The immune system is carried out, not in the blood, but in the tissues. Only rarely and accidentally do we see some of them in the blood. We've already carried out thousands of studies which have proven no correlation between disease or health, in old or young, in T-cells; and even less, of course, in T-cell subsets. But, even though they knew that these T-cell tests had not meaning, they were selling them to the market. Beginning in 1977, starting in the United States, it was possible to patent biological entities or biological techniques, so people started to make money out of biological ideas. [1995] INTERVIEW STEFAN LANKA
GMCarter - 23 May 2007 11:05 GMT >The second leg of the selection process for poisoning Africans with ARVs is >CD4 cell counting, on the premise that such a count indicates a person's >immune status, i.e. his health. But as early as April 1994, having employed >CD4 cell counts as a surrogate marker for drug efficacy in the Concorde >trial, the researchers reported the irrelevance of this laboratory measure >and its lack of a correlation to clinical health in Lancet 343(8902):871-81, AZT monotherapy did not work. But there have been LOTS of studies since then. At the time, I thought that's basically what the data showed. AZT monotherapy sucks.
Combination therapy has a much more dramatic impact.
Wow...this is ancient crap. And has been refuted....but then, I see the other deranged stuff you write, so it's little surprise you have to rest on the laurels of old, refuted arguments.
And the denialists keep dying of AIDS.
George M. Carter
JOHN - 23 May 2007 12:17 GMT > AZT monotherapy did not work. But there have been LOTS of studies > since then. At the time, I thought that's basically what the data > showed. AZT monotherapy sucks. Yeah, it must have kileld 400,000 people, and now they want to flog it to Africa
> Combination therapy has a much more dramatic impact. Yeah, kills you in a different way
> Wow...this is ancient crap. And has been refuted....but then, I see > the other deranged stuff you write, so it's little surprise you have > to rest on the laurels of old, refuted arguments. Ad hominem, and 'refuted' my a.s. More lies.
> And the denialists keep dying of AIDS. So do the HIV believers, million or so is it?
GMCarter - 23 May 2007 15:08 GMT >> AZT monotherapy did not work. But there have been LOTS of studies >> since then. At the time, I thought that's basically what the data >> showed. AZT monotherapy sucks. > >Yeah, it must have kileld 400,000 people, and now they want to flog it to >Africa AZT, along with a few other drugs, is in Africa. Has been for some time now, though not at levels that are needed. So people continue to die of AIDS. Because of horrific trade agreements, distortions of international trade and patent laws, greed and pharmaceutical company induced economic genocide.
>> Combination therapy has a much more dramatic impact. > >Yeah, kills you in a different way ARV therapy can be fatally toxic. But much more rarely than AIDS.
>> Wow...this is ancient crap. And has been refuted....but then, I see >> the other deranged stuff you write, so it's little surprise you have >> to rest on the laurels of old, refuted arguments. > >Ad hominem, and 'refuted' my a.s. More lies. LOL. You're calling me a liar. Gosh, I'm so hurt. There I thought you were the one guy who didn't go around calling people names.
>> And the denialists keep dying of AIDS. > >So do the HIV believers, million or so is it? Many, many more than that. Approximately 24 million men, women and children have died of AIDS. Most never saw ARV therapy.
George M. Carter
Death - 23 May 2007 16:01 GMT "GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message
> AZT, along with a few other drugs, is in Africa. Has been for some > time now, though not at levels that are needed. So people continue to > die of AIDS. Because of horrific trade agreements, distortions of > international trade and patent laws, greed and pharmaceutical company > induced economic genocide. Wrong again. They are dying because they have a disease brought about through personal behavior and that disease has no cure. Aspirin does not cure a toothache, it just alleviates some pain.
GMCarter - 23 May 2007 16:23 GMT >"GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message >> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >brought about through personal behavior and that disease >has no cure. Not wrong at all. They're dying too fast because they can't get treatment. It is also true that behavior increases risk of HIV infection. No doubt.
Guilt tripping, however--you're sad little game--is an ineffective tool that goes along with bullshit like "abstinence only" or Nancy's "Just Say No."
As a public policy approach, it is, like you, a dismal failure.
>Aspirin does not cure a toothache, it just alleviates some pain. Yep. So what? Aspirin is also very inexpensive. Should we get rid of it? What's your point? Struggle dear. You might come up with one but I doubt it since it will be lost in the haze of your moralizing--which coming from a racist and homophobe is hardly convincing.
George M. Carter
Death - 23 May 2007 16:59 GMT "GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message
> " Death" <Death@yourdoor.net> > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > treatment. It is also true that behavior increases risk of HIV > infection. No doubt. more double-speak as if something else causes HIV.
> Guilt tripping, however--you're sad little game--is an ineffective > tool that goes along with bullshit like "abstinence only" or Nancy's > "Just Say No." I don't believe in abstinence only, or just say no, that is something you made up. I wonder why you would do that. Perhaps you are looking to justify personal behavior and lay the blame for that personal behavior at the door of some-one else.
Even with all the bullshit you spew, this is what you can not excape:
There are billions of heterosexuals who will never aquire GRID no matter how f.cked up a trade agreement is, how greedy pharma gets or how shabby trade laws become.
GMCarter - 23 May 2007 17:45 GMT >"GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >more double-speak as if something else causes HIV. No double-speak at all...you're fixated on that little term. Reflects your inability to think of anything except in terms of black-and-white, like you're idols, Bush and Cheney.
>> Guilt tripping, however--you're sad little game--is an ineffective >> tool that goes along with bullshit like "abstinence only" or Nancy's >> "Just Say No." > >I don't believe in abstinence only, or just say no, Really? LOL...that's a laugh.
>that is something you made up. >I wonder why you would do that. You'd never do that. hee-hee
>Perhaps you are looking to justify personal behavior and lay the blame >for that personal behavior at the door of some-one else. You're the one who casts blame. Typical Rove-tactic--accuse others of doing precisely what you are doing.
>Even with all the bullshit you spew, this is what you can not excape: > >There are billions of heterosexuals who will never aquire >GRID no matter how f.cked up a trade agreement is, how greedy pharma gets >or how shabby trade laws become. GRID! LOL....there are billions of same sex loving people that will never become HIV infected.
What a completely pointless comment. Precisely what I'd expect from a conflicted cowardly troll who thinks it's marvy that his last thought will be that he wasn't something.
Wow. Good luck, fella.
George M. Carter
Death - 23 May 2007 19:12 GMT "GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message
> " Death" <Death@yourdoor.net> > >> > >more double-speak as if something else causes HIV. > > No double-speak at all...you're fixated on that little term. I find it useful in pointing out your double-speak.
>Reflects > your inability to think of anything except in terms of > black-and-white, like you're idols, Bush and Cheney. An attempt to alter what is at hand, how faggot of ya.
> >> Guilt tripping, however--you're sad little game--is an ineffective > >> tool that goes along with bullshit like "abstinence only" or Nancy's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Really? LOL...that's a laugh. If you have reason to think that, by all means share it. Yes, I know, you'll pass. Like most bullshit you spew with nothing to show for your effort.
> >that is something you made up. > >I wonder why you would do that. > > You'd never do that. hee-hee Like most faggots, yes you would, did and do.
> >Perhaps you are looking to justify personal behavior and lay the blame > >for that personal behavior at the door of some-one else. > > You're the one who casts blame. Typical Rove-tactic--accuse others of > doing precisely what you are doing. Other than pointing out filthy personal behavior, I cast no blame. Just another of your made-up lies to suit your perverted view of reality.
> >Even with all the bullshit you spew, this is what you can not excape: > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > GRID! LOL....there are billions of same sex loving people that will > never become HIV infected. Lets see where you got that billions number from. I know, you'll pass. Like most bullshit you spew with nothing to show for your effort.
RamRod Sword of Baal - 23 May 2007 21:42 GMT > There are billions of heterosexuals who will never aquire > GRID no matter how f.cked up a trade agreement is, how greedy pharmacy > gets > or how shabby trade laws become. Tell the tens of millions of heterosexuals around the world that have AIDS that you are having your own war of hatred, and are not calling AIDS, AIDS, but GRID, (Gay Related Immunodeficiency Disease), because GRIDS suits your hatred better of blaming the Gays for this disease.
Tell them that you do not care about them, you only care about how you can show your hatred for gay people, no matter how many heterosexuals get this disease, just to poison everyone minds against the gay people.
Yes, what you would like is to withhold the truth from all the heterosexuals in poor countries, do not educate them, do not inform them that condoms, and needles exchange programs can help prevent this disease, just blame the Gays, and let millions of heterosexuals die because of your hatred.
I say this is a disease of people, it does not matter if they are Gay or straight, black or white, Christian, Jew or Moslem, all are capable of being infected, it is a disease that must be conquered, and so far the only policy that has any success seems to be education.
Not the twisted Bush and the Religious Reich idea of education, (abstinence only) but a fair approach that covers all ways of preventing this disease from being transmitted, which includes needle exchange programs, and condom use.
Your statement of "There are billions of heterosexuals who will never aquire GRID" only goes to show how little you care for your fellow man, this can be taken that heterosexual cannot get AIDS and can screw around without any protection. A recipe for disaster, as had been shown in so many countries around the world.
Death - 24 May 2007 00:38 GMT "RamRod Sword of Baal" <RamRod@truth_only.com> wrote in message
> " Death" <Death@yourdoor.net> wrote in message > > > There are billions of heterosexuals who will never aquire > > GRID no matter how f.cked up a trade agreement is, how greedy pharmacy > > gets > > or how shabby trade laws become. I took out all of your rants that were not related to the topic at hand.
That being : GRID being caused by bad trade agreements, greedy pharma and shabby trade laws.
As you can see, there is nothing left of your post but thanks for playing.
RamRod Sword of Baal - 24 May 2007 01:37 GMT > "RamRod Sword of Baal" <RamRod@truth_only.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > As you can see, there is nothing left of your post but thanks for playing. Got no answer Huh?
Death - 24 May 2007 02:27 GMT > > "RamRod Sword of Baal" <RamRod@truth_only.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Got no answer Huh? You got the answer.
Martin - 23 May 2007 14:28 GMT >Since Wikipedia was raised, here is a better article. >T-helper cells have been known about a lot longer than since 1985, of >course.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_helper_cells > >also, an interesting article here: >http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/2000/ATN34102.html T-Cells and CD4 are not strictly speaking the same thing. About.com puts it in to simple language that even someone as stupid as me can understand.
<http://aids.about.com/od/newlydiagnosed/qt/cd4.htm>:
"T-cells (or T-lymphocytes) are white blood cells that play an important role in the immune system. There are two main types of T-cells. One type has molecules called CD4 on its surface; these `helper' cells orchestrate the body's response to certain micro-organisms such as viruses. The other T-cells, which have a molecule called CD8, destroy cells that are infected and produce antiviral substances."
I must admit that I'm not sure about CD4 being discovered in 1985. Finding out anything about T-cells and CD4 is virtually impossible because virtually all of the published information on the Internet is related to HIV and AIDS.
 Signature <http://www.hiv-poz.co.uk/>
GMCarter - 23 May 2007 15:19 GMT >>Since Wikipedia was raised, here is a better article. >>T-helper cells have been known about a lot longer than since 1985, of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >puts it in to simple language that even someone as stupid as me can >understand. That's correct. CD4 is a receptor found on several cell types, particularly on one type of T lymphocyte.
CD means cluster of differentiation and is a classification for a variety of receptors found on cells. These receptors are utilized, when bound with a ligand, to alter the behavior of cells in a variety of ways. To produce more antibodies, identify pathogens, induce rolling of cells through the circulatory system, induce expression of a variety of genes related to cytokine production...all sorts of things.
CD4+ T lymphocytes can be further subdivided into Th1, Th2 or Th3 cells, based on their activity, as well as the expression of other cell surface receptors such as CD25.
><http://aids.about.com/od/newlydiagnosed/qt/cd4.htm>: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >molecule called CD8, destroy cells that are infected and produce >antiviral substances." Yes.
>I must admit that I'm not sure about CD4 being discovered in 1985. >Finding out anything about T-cells and CD4 is virtually impossible >because virtually all of the published information on the Internet is >related to HIV and AIDS. A lot of it is. Other diseases, such as certain lymphomas and autoimmune disorders, also may have an impact on CD4+ expressing cells, notably plasmacytoid dendritic cells. One example below.
George M. Carter
*** Tetley TD. Inflammatory cells and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Curr Drug Targets Inflamm Allergy. 2005 Dec;4(6):607-18.
Lung Cell Biology, National Heart & Lung Institute, Imperial College, London SW3 6LY, UK. t.tetley@imperial.ac.uk
A major contributory factor to the development of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) is the inflammatory response to cigarette smoke. However, when those with COPD stop smoking, a continuous cycle of inflammation can lead to continued decline in lung function. Understanding the role of inflammatory cells in COPD is difficult because it is a mixture of diseases--bronchitis, small airways disease and emphysema--that exhibit different patterns of inflammation and different pathology. Neutrophils and macrophages have been implicated in this process; they release proteolytic enzymes and generate oxidants, which cause tissue damage, as well as cytokines and chemokines, which can potentiate inflammation and trigger an immune response. Analysis of sputum and bronchoalveolar lavage fluid shows increases in both neutrophils and macrophages in respiratory secretions in COPD subjects; neutrophils are the predominant cell in the conducting airways, whereas macrophages are the major cell in secretions from the small airways and parenchyma. Airway tissue neutrophils are increased in the large and small airways during infection and exacerbations, whilst parenchymal neutrophil numbers are inversely related to alveolar wall destruction, suggesting that they are not involved in the progression of emphysema. Macrophages are increased throughout the respiratory tract airway lumen and epithelium in COPD and are positively related to severity of disease, airway obstruction and degree of alveolar wall damage in emphysema. Unactivated T-lymphocytes do not linger in lung tissue. Activated (eg due to antigenic stimulus) memory T cells home in to the lung and act as effector cells. CD-8+ T cell differentiation into memory cells is facilitated by CD4+ T cells. Binding of CD-8+ T cells to collagen stimulates proliferation and mediator production which may contribute to the inflammatory response. CD8+ cytotoxic/suppressor T cells release cytotoxic perforins and granzyme B which cause cell death and apoptosis, a feature of emphysema. Lung secretions contain only a small percentage of T cells; most T-lymphocytes reside in the subepithelial and smooth muscle region of the tissue. During COPD, there is either an increase in the CD8+/CD4+ ratio of T cells, or an increase in the in total numbers of both CD8+ and CD4+ T cells, in the tissue. Smoking status, smoking history, degree of airway obstruction and emphysema are all related to increased CD8+ cells and/or CD8+/CD4+ ratio. During severe emphysema requiring lung volume reduction surgery, there is a considerable increase in macrophages, neutrophils, eosinophils, CD4+ and CD8+ T cells which relates to the severity of the disease. Interestingly, the marked increase in luminal CD8+ cells results in an increased ratio of CD8+/CD4+ T cells that is not seen in the parenchymal tissue. The florid inflammation observed in severe emphysema is suggested to be related to latent viral infection.
PMID: 17305517 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
RJ - 24 May 2007 00:17 GMT > Since Wikipedia was raised, here is a better article. > T-helper cells have been known about a lot longer than since 1985, of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > also, an interesting article here:http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/2000/ATN34102.html In a belated attempt to address the actual issue, CD4 was not "discovered in 1985" - I have a feeling that statement was added to Wikipedia by someone who shares Celia Farber's view that the field of cellular immunology only exists because of HIV (in reality, of course, CD4 and CD8 T cells play critically important roles in the immune response to just about everything, which is why immunologists spend a lot of time studying them). CD4 was called leu-3/T4 for a while before being allocated the CD4 moniker in 1983 (in a publication called "Leukocyte Typing": Bernard, A,, L. Bounsell,J. Dausset, C. Miistein, and S. F. Schlossman, editors. 1984. Leucocyte Typing. Springer-Verlag, Heidelberg. 45-48).
I think these are some of the key papers:
http://www.jem.org/cgi/reprint/145/1/221
J Exp Med. 1977 Jan 1;145(1):221-33.
Detection, isolation, and functional characterization of two human T- cell subclasses bearing unique differentiation antigens.
Evans RL, Breard JM, Lazarus H, Schlossman SF, Chess L.
A heterologous antihuman T-cell serum (anti-TH1), raised against purified peripheral T cells, and absorbed with an autologous Ig+ line, was shown to bind specifically to T- but not to B-lymphoid cells by both a complement-dependent cytotoxic assay and indirect immunofluorescence. Whereas 90% fetal thymocytes and thymocytes were killed by anti-TH1 and complement, a consistently restricted population (50-60%) of peripheral T cells from several normal donors were lysed, indicating that anti-TH1 is directed against one or more thymus-specific antigens which are lost or reduced on a subpopulation of human T cells in the periphery. Functional analysis of the unreactive (TH1-) and reactive (TH1+) T-cell subclasses demonstrated that TH1- cells mounted a good proliferative response to a battery of specific soluble antigens (mumps, PPD, tetanus toxoid) but neither responded in MLC, nor elaborated LMF in response to tetanus toxoid. In contrast TH1+ cells proliferated in MLC and elaborated LMF but did not respond by 3H-incorporation to soluble antigens. The relevance of these findings to human T-cell functions in vivo and to previously described functional subclasses of murine T cells is discussed.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=315070
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1979 August; 76(8): 4061-4065.
Separation of functional subsets of human T cells by a monoclonal antibody. E L Reinherz, P C Kung, G Goldstein, and S F Schlossman
A monoclonal antibody was produced to human peripheral blood T cells. This hybridoma antibody, termed OKT4, was reactive by indirect immunofluorescence with only 55-60% of the peripheral blood T cell population (OKT4+) and unreactive with normal B cells, null cells, and macrophages. The OKT4- T cell population contained the previously described TH2+ subset that has been shown to contain cytotoxic/ suppressor cells. With cell-sorter separation of OKT4+ and OKT4- cells, it was shown that these T cell subsets were functionally discrete. Both gave proliferative responses with concanavalin A, alloantigens, and phytohemagglutinin although OKT4+ cells were much more responsive to the latter. OKT4+ cells alone responded to soluble antigens whereas OKT4- cells alone were cytotoxic after alloantigenic sensitization of unfractionated T cells. However, both OKT4+ and OKT4- cells were required during sensitization for optimal development of cytotoxicity. These data suggest that the OKT4+ subset represents a helper population and that the OKT4- subset contains the cytotoxic effector population. OKT4 could be a valuable reagent for determining alterations of these functional subsets in human diseases.
Science. 1979 Oct 19;206(4416):347-9.
Monoclonal antibodies defining distinctive human T cell surface antigens.
Kung P, Goldstein G, Reinherz EL, Schlossman SF.
Three novel nonoclonal antibodies (designed OKT1, OKT3, and OKT4) were generated against surface determinants of human peripheral T cells. Both OKT1 and OKT3 reacted with all human peripheral T cells and 5 to 10 percent of thymocytes but differed in their reactivities with T cel- lines. By contrast, OKT4 reacted with 55 percent of human peripheral T cells and 80 percent of thymocytes in that they did not react with normal B cells, null cells, monocytes, or granulocytes.
GMCarter - 24 May 2007 11:35 GMT snip
>In a belated attempt to address the actual issue, CD4 was not >"discovered in 1985" - I have a feeling that statement was added to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >response to just about everything, which is why immunologists spend a >lot of time studying them). Thanks, Richard! I appreciate this history and suspected there was something bogus about what poor deluded Martin was trying to foist upon himself.
He'll probably be dead soon so I'm not going to worry too much more about his delusions. Still--the discussion has brought out some useful and intriguing information.
George M. Carter
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