Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / September 2006
HIV: Mechanism of transmission and development to AIDS
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kqurtyhar@gmail.com - 21 Aug 2006 13:32 GMT Please correct me if I am wrong.
1) Virus enters the body 2) Looks for T4 cells 3) Doesn't find them (in healthy bodies) die off quickly 4) finds them (in unhealthy bodies) and replicates. 4a) Is t4 the immune response to HIV?
5) Virus is at low levels 6) starts replicating again slowly-body seemingly has no response to it this time. 6a) replication is at the expense of t4 cells which the body calls up in response?
My question in all of this is simple. Is T4 cells the auto response for HIV? If it isn't how does T4 get decimated by HIV?
GMCarter - 21 Aug 2006 15:39 GMT >Please correct me if I am wrong. > >1) Virus enters the body >2) Looks for T4 cells >3) Doesn't find them (in healthy bodies) die off quickly Wrong. A body would not be defined as healthy if it did not have T cells. They usually call that "AIDS."
HIV readily infects people of quite robust health.
>4) finds them (in unhealthy bodies) and replicates. When someone is infected with HIV, the virus replicates quite readily in a number of sites, mostly the gut.
>4a) Is t4 the immune response to HIV? t4 is a shorthand for CD4 which is a co-receptor on a subset of immune system cells known as lymphocytes. Here, you need to read a bit of basic immunology.
>5) Virus is at low levels Wrong. After initial infection, virus spikes up quite dramatically, for example. So this statement is meaningless.
>6) starts replicating again slowly-body seemingly has no response to it >this time. Absolutely wrong. The body's response to HIV is sometimes excessive; part of the reason lymph nodes deteriorate and gut function is compromised.
>6a) replication is at the expense of t4 cells which the body calls up >in response? The major cell type that is depleted during HIV disease is the CD4+ T lymphocyte or T cell. "T4" is a rather arcane term at this point.
>My question in all of this is simple. Is T4 cells the auto response for >HIV? What the hell is auto response? Do you mean autoimmune?
Simple answer: no. HIV is an external agent.
Nuanced answer: some people with HIV may also have some autoimmune reactions develop as a result of HIV infection.
>If it isn't how does T4 get decimated by HIV? An excellent question--a number of mechanisms. See below.
George M. Carter At 06:43 PM 8/19/2006, you wrote:
What mitochondrial damage do you know of which is caused by HIV?
To the best of my knowledge, all mitochonrial damage in people with HIV is caused by nucleosides and NNRTIs.
An excellent question!
There are myriad ways HIV can cause mitochondrial damage. Broadly speaking, one could say through direct and indirect mechanims.
For example, involvement of HIV in the peripheral nervous system manifests as neuropathy while in the central nervous system as minor cognitive motor disorder and dementia. Here, as with many of the CD4+ T lymphocytes that die, the neurons are NOT infected by HIV, but rather by expression of inflammatory cytokines and/or by various HIV proteins like gp120 (e.g., second abstract below). How does this happen?
Indeed--why is that the majority of CD4 cells lost in the progression of HIV disease are not infected?
Within infected cells, there are a variety of ways that HIV proteins can affect mitochondria. One candidate mechanism to explain induction of apoptosis (cell suicide) for example is the vpr protein (see first abstract below). Others have noted that vpr may induce apoptosis by directly depolarizing the mitochondria membrane potential (see Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2003 May 9;304(3):583-92).
The apoptosis of UNinfected cells may be brought about by expression of fas or TNF, which are part of the aberrant and overactive immune response to HIV infection that are part of the underlying CAUSE of the clinical development of AIDS. (By contrast, sooty mangabeys, for example, have an infection that has actively replicating virus but their lymph nodes remain intact, gut function normal and CD4 counts generally don't decline too much--they don't develop AIDS).
This is a critical point: HIV disease leads to hyperactivation of immune functions which result in the eventual deterioration of lymph node architecture, damage to the CNS, depleted gut function and so forth that are the ultimate cause of AIDS. Indeed, as the forth abstract below notes, "Finally, HIV-infected cells from naive patients behaved identically to activated T cells, displaying hyperpolarized mitochondria, while lymphocytes from patients under highly active antiretroviral therapy (which included HIV protease inhibitors) seemed to react as resting cells."
The third abstract below gives a nice little precis of these "intrinsic" and "extrinsic" pathways to cell death. The mitochondria play a key role in sending a cell into that abject state of cell suicide. Part of that acitvity may be regulated by the intracellular redox status, as underscored in the 5th abstract below. The therapeutic implications are delineated in the last abstract--underscoring the need for further clinical evaluation of these types of approaches, both in people with higher CD4 counts not on ARV and those on ARV.
Of course, the last one was written 12 years ago. Have we had the studies? Will we get them? Probably not. NIH is in the pocket of pharma which can't patent these so they can't rob every dime from every pocket so they can maintain the high lifestyle and power politics to which they have become accustomed and, apparently, entitled. George M. Carter
** Zhao LJ, Zhu H. Structure and function of HIV-1 auxiliary regulatory protein Vpr: novel clues to drug design. Curr Drug Targets Immune Endocr Metabol Disord. 2004 Dec;4(4):265-75.
Institute for Molecular Virology, St. Louis University School of Medicine, 3681 Park Avenue, St. Louis, MO 63110, USA. zhaol@slu.edu
Vpr is a 96-amino acid auxiliary regulatory protein that is packaged in the HIV-1 virion. It enhances the nuclear transport of the pre-integration complex, and regulates cell cycle, transcription and apoptosis. These biological activities suggest strongly that Vpr interacts with cellular biochemical pathways to regulate HIV-1 replication and pathogenesis. The karyophilic property of Vpr appears to be due to direct interaction of Vpr with nuclear transport factors and residents of the nuclear pore complex, whereas transcriptional effects of Vpr may be exerted through direct and indirect mechanisms. Cell cycle arrest at the G2/M checkpoint by Vpr is correlated with the hyperphosphorylation of Cdc2. The pro-apoptotic activity of Vpr is dependent on the subtype of the HIV-1 isolate, and may be dramatically enhanced by a single L64P mutation. Mitochondria- and caspase-dependent mechanisms appear to mediate Vpr-induced apoptosis. Recent evidence suggests that Vpr interacts with a cellular ubiquitination machinery and promotes degradation of Vpr mutants carrying the L64P mutation. Vpr interaction with the ubiquitination machinery may contribute to the regulation of the HIV-1 life cycle at various stages. NMR studies of Vpr have shown a Vpr monomer with three helical domains arranged in a twisted-U shape. However, Vpr most likely exists as a trimer in vivo. Structural/functional domains have been tentatively mapped for Vpr induction of apoptosis and for Vpr interaction with the ubiquitination machinery. Structural refinement of Vpr, specially by crystallography of the potential Vpr trimer, should help design therapeutic approaches to specifically target Vpr.
** Ahr B, Robert-Hebmann V, Devaux C, Biard-Piechaczyk M. Apoptosis of uninfected cells induced by HIV envelope glycoproteins. Retrovirology. 2004 Jun 23;1(1):12.
Laboratoire Infections Retrovirales et Signalisation Cellulaire, CNRS UMR 5121-UM1, Institut de Biologie, 4, Bd Henri IV, CS 89508, 34960 Montpellier Cedex 2, France. barbara.ahr@univ-montp1.fr
Apoptosis, or programmed cell death, is a key event in biologic homeostasis but is also involved in the pathogenesis of many human diseases including human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection. Although multiple mechanisms contribute to the gradual T cell decline that occurs in HIV-infected patients, programmed cell death of uninfected bystander T lymphocytes, including CD4+ and CD8+ T cells, is an important event leading to immunodeficiency. The HIV envelope glycoproteins (Env) play a crucial role in transducing this apoptotic signal after binding to its receptors, the CD4 molecule and a coreceptor, essentially CCR5 and CXCR4. Depending on Env presentation, the receptor involved and the complexity of target cell contact, apoptosis induction is related to death receptor and/or mitochondria-dependent pathways. This review summarizes current knowledge of Env-mediated cell death leading to T cell depletion and clinical complications and covers the sometimes conflicting studies that address the possible mechanisms of T cell death.
** Lum JJ, Badley AD. Resistance to apoptosis: mechanism for the development of HIV reservoirs. Curr HIV Res. 2003 Jul;1(3):261-74.
Ottawa Health Research Institute, University of Ottawa, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.
New insights into the physiological cell death program in mammalian cells have further confounded the central issue of T lymphocyte destruction during HIV infection. Although infected and uninfected cells die following infection, recent evidence indicates that infected and uninfected cells may have unique pathways controlling death. Two widely accepted models for apoptosis have been described, namely the intrinsic and extrinsic apoptotic pathway. In the extrinsic pathway, ligation of TNF death ligands to their receptors causes oligomerization of the death receptors and recruitment of adaptor proteins typically involving caspase 8 activation. In the intrinsic pathway, apoptotic signals converge on mitochondria to cause activation and subsequent release of cytochrome c, which leads to formation of a multiprotein complex containing Apaf-1, cytochrome c, dATP and procaspase 9. Expression of HIV proteins alters these pathways resulting in enhanced levels of apoptosis. Although HIV infection results in T cell apoptosis, under some circumstances a small fraction of CD4+ T cells and macrophages do not die following infection, indicating that this may be a critical step in the development of viral reservoirs. In addition, monocyte differentiation into macrophages leads to an apoptosis resistant phenotype characterized by upregulation of antiapoptotic molecules and lower levels of proapoptotic molecules. The development of these stable antiretroviral resistant cells represents the major obstacle in achieving a complete sterile cure. However, this provides a unique opportunity to further understand the regulation of apoptosis and may facilitate novel immune based therapies aimed at modifying apoptosis in HIV disease.
** Matarrese P, Gambardella L, Cassone A, et al. Mitochondrial membrane hyperpolarization hijacks activated T lymphocytes toward the apoptotic-prone phenotype: homeostatic mechanisms of HIV protease inhibitors. J Immunol. 2003 Jun 15;170(12):6006-15.
Department of Ultrastructures, Istituto Superiore di Sanita, Rome, Italy.
A decrease of mitochondrial membrane potential has been hypothesized to be a marker of apoptotic cells, including activated T lymphocytes. It was recently demonstrated that HIV protease inhibitors, independently from any viral infection, can hinder lymphocyte apoptosis by influencing mitochondrial homeostasis. To analyze the mechanisms underlying these effects, a specific study was undertaken in both resting and activated human PBL exposed to either receptor (e.g., anti-Fas)- or nonreceptor (e.g., radiation)-mediated apoptotic stimuli. T cell activation was found to be accompanied by a significant increase in mitochondrial membrane potential, or hyperpolarization, which was undetectable in resting cells. We also detected apoptotic hindering by HIV protease inhibitors only in activated T lymphocytes. This was apparently due to the ability of these drugs to block activation-associated mitochondria hyperpolarization, which, in turn, was paralleled by an impairment of cell cycle progression. Remarkably, protease inhibitors also prevented zidovudine-mediated mitochondrial toxicity. Finally, HIV-infected cells from naive patients behaved identically to activated T cells, displaying hyperpolarized mitochondria, while lymphocytes from patients under highly active antiretroviral therapy (which included HIV protease inhibitors) seemed to react as resting cells. Altogether these results clearly indicate that the hyperpolarization state of mitochondria may represent a prerequisite for the sensitization of lymphocytes to the so-called activation-induced cell death. They also suggest that HIV protease inhibitors, by interfering with induction of the mitochondrial hyperpolarization state, can result in cell survival even independent of any viral infection.
** Perl A, Gergely P Jr, Puskas F, Banki K. Metabolic switches of T-cell activation and apoptosis. Antioxid Redox Signal. 2002 Jun;4(3):427-43.
Departments of Medicine, Microbiology and Immunology, and Pathology, State University of New York Upstate Medical University, College of Medicine, 750 East Adams Street, Syracuse, NY 13210, USA. perla@upstate.edu
The signaling networks that mediate activation, proliferation, or programmed cell death of T lymphocytes are dependent on complex redox and metabolic pathways. T lymphocytes are primarily activated through the T-cell receptor and co-stimulatory molecules. Although activation results in lymphokine production, proliferation, and clonal expansion, it also increases susceptibility to apoptosis upon crosslinking of cell-surface death receptors or exposure to toxic metabolites. Activation signals are transmitted by receptor-associated protein tyrosine kinases and phosphatases through calcium mobilization to a secondary cascade of kinases, which in turn activate transcription factors initiating cell proliferation and cytokine production. Initiation and activity of cell death-mediating proteases are redox-sensitive and dependent on energy provided by ATP. Mitochondria play crucial roles in providing ATP for T-cell activation through the electron transport chain and oxidative phosphorylation. The mitochondrial transmembrane potential (DeltaPsi(m)) plays a decisive role not only by driving ATP synthesis, but also by controlling reactive oxygen species production and release of cell death-inducing factors. DeltaPsi(m) and reactive oxygen species levels are regulated by the supply of reducing equivalents, glutathione and thioredoxin, as well as NADPH generated in the pentose phosphate pathway. This article identifies redox and metabolic checkpoints controlling activation and survival of T lymphocytes.
** Favier A, Sappey C, Leclerc P, Faure P, Micoud M. Antioxidant status and lipid peroxidation in patients infected with HIV. Chem Biol Interact. 1994 Jun;91(2-3):165-80.
GREPO: Groupe de Recherches sur les Pathologies Oxydatives, Faculte de Pharmacie, Universite de Grenoble, La Tronche, France.
Deficiency in antioxidant micronutrients have been observed in patients with AIDS. These observations concerning only some isolated nutrients demonstrate a defect in zinc, selenium, and glutathione. An increase in free radical production and lipid peroxidation has been also found in these patients, and takes a great importance with recent papers presenting an immunodeficiency and more important an increase in HIV-1 replication secondary to free radicals overproduction. We have assessed different studies, trying to obtain a global view of the antioxidant status of these patients. In adults we observe a progressive decrease for zinc, selenium, and vitamin E with the severity of disease, except that selenium remains normal at stage II. However, the main dramatic decrease concerns carotenoids whose level at stage II is only half the normal value. To understand if these decreases in antioxidant and increases in oxidative stress occur secondary to the aggravation of the disease or, conversely, are responsible for it, we undertook a longitudinal survey of asymptotic patients. The preliminary results of this evaluation are presented. Paradoxically, lipid peroxidation is higher at stage II than at stage IV. This may be consecutive to a more intense overproduction of oxygen free radicals by more viable polymorphonuclear (PMN) at the asymptomatic stage. The free radicals production and lipid peroxidation seem secondary to a direct induction by the virus of PMN stimulation and cytokines secretion. N-Acetyl cysteine or ascorbate have been demonstrated in cell culture to be capable of blocking the expression of HIV-1 after oxidative stress and N-acetyl cysteine inhibits in vitro TNF-induced apoptosis of infected cells. In regard to all these experimental data, few serious and large trials of antioxidants have been conducted in HIV-infected patients, although some preliminary studies using zinc or selenium have been performed. In our opinion it is now time to evaluate in humans the beneficial effect of antioxidants. The more promising candidates for presenting synergistic effects when associated with N-acetyl cysteine seem to be beta-carotene, selenium and zinc.
monty1945@lycos.com - 22 Aug 2006 18:12 GMT The "virus" spikes, Mr. Carter, and yet no scientist can find particles that are both the correct shape and size for any retrovirus (let alone a specifiic one) in any part of the body of such a person so "infected?" You are saying that there is what is called viremia, and yet it is undetectable. If you have a citation from the scientific literature that demonstrates something more than markers, associations, correlations, etc., please post it here. In reality, what the "experts" are doing is modifying assumptions that have been demonstrated to be wrong. They use various "markers," some of which are common in those whose cells are undergoing exceptional stress, such as oxidative or nitrosative, but they never find the "virus" - just parts of destroyed cells that they decided had to belong to "HIV." Why does it have to belong to "HIV?:" Because if it does not, promotions, profits, funding, etc. will be at risk and there will be plenty of "negative publicity."
In fact, poor nutrition can do everything that "AIDS" is said to do, though excessive antigenic exposure (such as in those who engage in receptive anal intercourse and IV drug abusers, for example) greatly exacerbate the situation. In "Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease" (by Shils and Young, 7th edition), for example, the following passages make this point:
...there are two prominent T-lymphocyte subsets: one comprised of T helper/inducer cells (T4) and a second subset of T suppressor/cytotoxic cells (T8). The intravenous injection of antigen tends to favor the development of T suppressor cells that are abundant in the spleen. Page 597.
...secondary immune deficiencies are the consequence of some other systemic disorder that indirectly causes a defect in the response of the immune system. Page 598.
The major defects seen in severe PEM seem to involve T-lymphocytes and the complement system. A marked depletion of lymphocytes from the thymus and atrophy of the gland occur. In addition, cells from the T-lymphocyte regions of the spleen and lymph nodes are depleted... These deficiencies may explain the high susceptibility of severely malnourished patients to gram negative bacterial sepsis... The B-lymphocytes areas of he spleen and lymph nodes and the circulating levels of B cells and immunoglobulins are relatively normal... The overall consequences of all these alterations in severe PEM are a greater predisposition to infections and to severe complications in otherwise less important infectious diseases. Pages 752-753.
If you want to learn more about how "diseases" usually occur, go to my website, at:
http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-
Chris Noble - 23 Aug 2006 03:59 GMT > The "virus" spikes, Mr. Carter, and yet no scientist can find particles > that are both the correct shape and size for any retrovirus (let alone > a specifiic one) in any part of the body of such a person so > "infected?" Yawn.
This paper is from 1987!
http://tinyurl.com/ogoh2
Nice spikes.
Chris Noble
GMCarter - 23 Aug 2006 11:53 GMT >The "virus" spikes, Mr. Carter, and yet no scientist can find particles >that are both the correct shape and size for any retrovirus (let alone >a specifiic one) in any part of the body of such a person so >"infected?" Ah--yes they can. And have.
Shows how much you keep up with the data. <plonk> '
js - 23 Aug 2006 13:20 GMT GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit dans le message : jtcoe25edc1b57joqcasopt7vgn387ks34@4ax.com...
> >The "virus" spikes, Mr. Carter, and yet no scientist can find particles > >that are both the correct shape and size for any retrovirus (let alone [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > <plonk> > ' Nobody can keep up with the flabbergasting scientific arguments of your swiftly moving brain, Carter. You're the champion, we must admit.
HA, HA, HA, HA.
My God, that was a good laugh. Hey, Cartes, I'm really fun to have around, ain't I? You must admit that, even though it also hurts to be the laughing stock of the whole wide web.
kqurtyhar@gmail.com - 23 Aug 2006 15:41 GMT Mr Carter, I am looking at the bigger picture-an overview if you like.
The question is simple. Does the HIV virus infect, destroy and spawn new virii via the t4 cells?
If it doesn't what is the mechanism for inactivating the T4 cells?
monty1945@lycos.com - 23 Aug 2006 19:12 GMT Here is the study Noble cited:
Virology. 1987 Jan;156(1):171-6. Links Fine structure of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and immunolocalization of structural proteins.Gelderblom HR, Hausmann EH, Ozel M, Pauli G, Koch MA. Ultrathin section and surface replica electron microscopy were applied in combination with immunoelectron microscopy to elucidate the fine structure of HIV. The shell of the tubular core shows p24 antigenicity, while p17 is located at the inner leaflet of the lipid membrane. The virus particle is studded with 70-80 protrusions. These knobs have a diameter of 15 nm, a height of 9 nm, and are probably arranged in a T = 7 I symmetry. The major envelope protein gp120 is spontaneously shed from the viral surface. A possible role of released gp120 in pathogenesis is discussed.
Sounds wonderful, but the problem is that they are just finding pieces of things that they they belong to "HIV."
As of 1997:
QUOTE: Two historic papers in the leading science journal Virology in March this year provide astonishing new data on the purification and isolation of HIV. For the first time in the history of AIDS, elusive electron microscope images of 'HIV' collected or 'banded' at the official density required for retroviruses, 1.16 gm/ml, have been published, by a research group in Germany. The electronmicrographs disclose "major contaminants" in "pure HIV".
HIV expert Hans Gelderblom of Berlin's Robert Koch Institute, whose photos of non-banded 'HIV' material have been the industrial benchmark since 1987, co-authored the first paper which describes the contamination as "an excess of vesicles" - particles of cellular proteins, that may contain DNA or RNA. In a consecutive paper, a US research team from the AIDS Vaccine Programme in Maryland reveal carefully, "It is unknown how these cellular proteins associate with the virus" and warn, "The presence of microvesicles in purified retroviruses has practical implications": both teams discuss the resulting nonspecifity of HIV tests, all of which are based on early unchecked "purified HIV".
In an historic admission that it has never been established which proteins constitute 'HIV', the US scientists conclude, "The development of various purification strategies to separate microvesicles from HIV-particles ... will greatly enhance our ability to identify virion-associated cellular proteins." The imaging step in attempts at retroviral isolation was deemed essential when isolation procedure was discussed and decided at the Pasteur Institute, Paris in 1972, but it has never been published before in the 13-year history of 'HIV'. (Continuum autumn 1997). UNQUOTE.
Since then, the "HIV experts" just assume that the textbook claims are correct, but my point that now that the "experts" are saying that "HIV" does not destroy the T cells in question, but just "turns them off," so to speak, why can't large amounts of intact "HIV" be found in those said to be infected? Why is there just this abundance of what appears to be nothing more than cellular debris?
Source of the above quotation: http://www.polder.net/aids/award.htm
For those interested in this subject, also see: http://www.polder.net/aids/data/ehremarks.htm
monty1945@lycos.com - 23 Aug 2006 19:15 GMT In above post, "they they" should be "they think."
monty1945@lycos.com - 23 Aug 2006 19:28 GMT Here is the key passage from the latter link, above:
QUOTE: In the case of RNA tumor viruses, now called retroviruses, the demonstration of viremia in the blood plasma of experimental leukemic animals (chickens and mice) was published more than 35 years ago. A most efficient purification method including ultrafiltration and ultracentrifugation of a 1/1 dilution of plasma in heparinized Ringer's solution, allowed me to demonstrate packed retroviruses by transmission electron microscopy (7) in thin sections of pellets obtained by high speed centrifugation of the purified virus, quite clearly establishing that the amount of contaminating cell debris was remarkably small, a conclusion which could never have been reached by using the negative staining EM method. Using this simple ultrafiltration procedure, virions were never exposed to hypertonic shock. However, sedimentation in sucrose density gradients, at the density of 1.16 gm/ml, soon became the most popular method for retrovirus purification.(8) Interestingly, it was very well known by electron microscopists in the 1960s, that sharp bands sedimenting at the density of 1.16 frequently contained large amounts of microvesicles and cell debris of non-viral nature. These debris just happened to sediment in sucrose gradients at a density very similar to that of retroviruses clearly indicating that finding a "sharp band" at the density of 1.16 gm/ml was of little significance and was certainly far from any demonstration of retroviruses isolation. UNQUOTE.
All I ask for is a demonstration of this kind of retroviral viremia in those said to be "AIDS patients" or "HIV infected using the method described as "most efficient," and for perhaps 1000 "non HIV infected" control subjects who are very ill with a variety of other "diseases" to also be tested in the same way. If the "HIV/AIDS patients" are the only ones to have abundant retroviral viremia, then at that point we can say that a retrovirus is present and may be the cause of some symptoms. At this point, there is nothing but wishful thinking on the part of those who have staked their reputations on the "HIV/AIDS" notion and those who profit from the industry that is devoted to "treating" so-called HIV/AIDS.
Chris Noble - 24 Aug 2006 04:01 GMT > Here is the study Noble cited: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Sounds wonderful, but the problem is that they are just finding pieces > of things that they they belong to "HIV." Who would have guessed it? Rather than read the article and look at the excellent EMs of HIV Monty regurgitates virusmyth nonsense.
Look at the EMs in the paper and tell me they are microvesicles. Why do antibodies to HIV p24 bind to the tubular core of these viral particles? Why do antibodies to HIV p17 bind to the lipid membrane of these particles?
All these wild coincidences!
Read the article before you dismiss it.
Chris Noble
GMCarter - 24 Aug 2006 12:34 GMT snip...
>Read the article before you dismiss it. Twill be a cold day in hell, my friend, before monty manages to read ANYTHING that conflicts with his psychotic views of the world.
That's why we call it DENIALISM.
George M. Carter
monty1945@lycos.com - 24 Aug 2006 23:21 GMT >From the very paper you cite, the researchers say that there was "an excess of vesicles." Are you disagreeing with the interpretation of the researchers who wrote up the study you cited?
As for the other questions; they all depend upon assumptions which were never demonstrated. It is like the proverbial house of cards, except that with a house or cards, there are actually some cards there, though it's not much of a "house," structurally.
monty1945@lycos.com - 25 Aug 2006 00:08 GMT Here is the crux of the issue:
QUOTE: This March [1997], two papers [18,19] were published with electron micrographs of sucrose density gradient banded material. In one of these papers the authors confirmed that:
"Virus to be used for biochemical and serological [using "viral" proteins to test for antibodies in patients] analyses or as an immunogen [to produce antibodies in animals and test patients for "viral" proteins] is frequently prepared by centrifugation through sucrose density gradients. The fractions containing viral antigen [proteins] and/or infectivity are considered to contain a population of relatively pure viral particles" [19] (italics ours).
However, to the contrary, the data in these papers support our claim that the existence of HIV is unproven:
1. The authors of both papers concede that the particles which are present in the banded material and which are said to be HIV represent only a very small fraction of the total material. Gelderblom et al. state that the material contains "an excess of [cellular] vesicles with a size range 50-500nm, as opposed to a minor population of virus particles...cellular vesicles appear...to be a major contaminant of HIV preparations enriched by sucrose gradient centrifugation".
2. For the small number of particles deemed to be "HIV" no evidence is given that they are even a retrovirus-like particle. Indeed, to the contrary: (a) the particles do not appear to have surface spikes (knobs), although the possibility that such projections may be present cannot be excluded. (However, in other papers published by many researchers including Gelderblom and his associates such projections are noted to be absent [14,20]; (b) the particles referred to as "HIV" are not spherical and have diameters exceeding 100-120 nM. In the EM in Gluschankof et al. [19] there are arrows pointing to five "HIV" particles devoid of surface projections whose dimensions are 121 X 145; 121 X 169; 121 X 145, 121 X 145 and 133 X 145 nM respectively. In Bess et al. [18] there are a total of six "HIV particles" also devoid of surface projections whose dimensions are 160 X 240; 200 X 240; 280 X 280; 208 X 250; 167 X 250 and 250 X 292 and nM respectively.
Thus, by definition, the particles cannot be retroviral-like particles and even less, a unique retrovirus, HIV. Furthermore, the particles noted by Gluschankof et al. and Bess et al. cannot be the same particle. Indeed, the method adopted by all HIV researchers for proving the existence of HIV, that is, excluding proof based on purification of particles with retroviral morphology shown capable of faithful replication but rather by detection of antibody/protein reactions, does not satisfy any scientific principle and defies common sense. UNQUTOE.
Thus, it is clear that there is difference of opinion how to interpret the data obtained. This is quite common in academia, and it is rare to call a colleague a "kook," "crank," etc., though it is common for industry shills to employ these tactics. The Perth Group's interpretation appears to be totally consistent with the data. Just because a group of researchers obtained the data does not mean that their interpretation of it is accurate. This is something that Carter and Noble seem incapable of comprehending.
Chris Noble - 25 Aug 2006 05:07 GMT > >From the very paper you cite, the researchers say that there was "an > excess of vesicles." Are you disagreeing with the interpretation of > the researchers who wrote up the study you cited? Those words are not found in the 1987 paper that I cited. You have not read the paper. You have not looked at the evidence. You are a pathetic troll.
The paper from 1987 has excellent electron micrographs of HIV. You can clearly see the conical core and the spikes. They also used immunoferritin labelling to demonstrate that the HIV proteins p24 and p17 were localised in the core and lipid membrane respectively. They are quite clearly not vesicles.
Chris Noble
monty1945@lycos.com - 26 Aug 2006 17:59 GMT If you believe there is an error in any citations, go ahead and provide the link so that anyone can decide for himself/herself. Otherwise, you apper to be the "troll." I cite professional sources. You have mentioned a study, and I already responded; interpretations and results generated are not the same thing. The point the Perth Group makes is clear: if they are not of both the right size and shape, then a retrovirus is not involved and the basic "HIV/AIDS" claim is contradicted. Thus, at this point, I suggest to explain exactly what your position is. However, viruses either overwhelm the organism quickly or else "reactivate" under particular circumstances, and so I have no problem with the notion that a virus could be present; I just don't see evidence that there is anything here except cellular debris. And because cellular debris comes in all manner of shapes and sizes, you will always be able to "fish out" pieces of this debris that appear to be consistent with "HIV." However, if the shape is more or less correct, but the size is not and there are very few of these particles of the correct shape and size, then what you have demonstrated is that "HIV" is not present, not that it is. If it was established that abundant particles of the correct shape and size were present, the next step would be to see if it was present in all "AIDS patients" and not present in people dying of other diseases. This would be consistent with the scientific method. If those like yourself were so interested in silencing "dissidents" the intelligent thing to do would be to create a website that contained the evidence that is in contention, not just what you want people to see, along with your interpretation of the evidence. This is all an academic can do: you make your case, citing the relevant evidence and explaining why you consider your interpretation superior to all others. Again, I ask you to explain your position precisely, and then provide the evidence. I have seen EMs that are supposed to be "good pictures of HIV," and they are pathetic, at best. If you have seen something better, go ahead and post a link to the EMs you consider very convincing.
GMCarter - 27 Aug 2006 10:35 GMT > I have seen >EMs that are supposed to be "good pictures of HIV," and they are >pathetic, at best. So you say. Why should we believe anything you have to say?
In short, back up this claim with a specific rationale of why the EMs are no good? Compared to what?
And given that most viral infections and many bacterial ones are identified by PCR, why does that not add significant weight and evidence to the fact HIV exists?
You certainly have not demonstrated any bona fides to merely accept your statements at face value as far as intellectual rigor goes.
George M. Carter
Chris Noble - 28 Aug 2006 06:05 GMT > I have seen > EMs that are supposed to be "good pictures of HIV," and they are > pathetic, at best. If you have seen something better, go ahead and > post a link to the EMs you consider very convincing. You pathetic troll.
I provided you with a citation. You have not bothered to look at the paper.
Chris Noble
DavidT - 29 Aug 2006 18:09 GMT I love it when the denialists raise the issue of Gelderblom seeing vesicles. His papers demonstrate clearly that he can distinguish between virus particles and vesicles. He talks about the problems of vesicle contamination and precisely how to distinguish between this and viral particles. Denialists never read beyond the word "vesicle", and merely parrot the word repeatedly to themselves in the forlorn hope that someone might conclude that Gelderblom has become confused.
monty1945@lycos.com - 31 Aug 2006 17:22 GMT I don't want anyone to "believe" anything; I want the scientific method to be followed. I am not telling people to take highly toxic "medicines" in order to try and killoff a deadly virus. I am asking for evidence for that claim. The Hippocratic Oath is clear: a doctor should do no harm first and foremost, and it is undeniable that taking highly toxic medicines for years will do harm, so there must be very strong evidence in order to justify this situation, and I am asking for that evidence. For years, I did not think twice about the "HIV/AIDS" claims; I just assumed they were correct. The difference between you and I, it appears, is that when I investigate something of interest, I leave my preconceptions behind, and examine the evidence closely. In science, one proposes a hypothesis, along with the evidence that seems to support it, as well as suggestions for future experiments that will verify the claim. If this is not done, what is presented is not science, and I will leave it to you to call it what you will, because I am not interested in it. Often, interpretations of the data generated in such experiments will differ, and this is considered academically acceptable. This is why so much of "modern medicine" is something of a sham - the scientific method is not followed, often because those with political authority deem a "public health threat," which is ludicrous considering how much harm can be done if causes are not determined. I have proposed various experiments that would be on point and would settle the "HIV/AIDS" notion, but these are not going to be done by those in authority today, and so all I can do is to ask for the evidence, and an explanation about how this evidence demonstrates that there is a specific retrovirus doing specific kinds of harm. If you don't feel those who make such claims have a responsibility to provide this much, then you are allowing them to preside over this area of "disease" in a manner very similar to the religious cult leader. You are the one who asks others to believe!
As to DavidT, yes, I'm sure the gentleman believes he is seeing "HIV" - nobody is disputing that point. The question concerns what he actually found. He found a few particles that corresponded to what he thought the textbooks said a retrovirus might look like. He did not demonstrate viremia, nor did he demonstrate that these particles are both the correct shape and size. Furthermore, there are no experiments done to determine if those who are ill from other "diseases" have the same kinds of particles in their bodies. These are just some things that the scientific method demands before claims of a specific retrovirus causing a deadly disease over a decade later, after many years of no symptoms, should be entertained by anyone of sound mind.
Chris Noble - 01 Sep 2006 06:55 GMT <snip waffle>
> As to DavidT, yes, I'm sure the gentleman believes he is seeing "HIV" - > nobody is disputing that point. The question concerns what he actually [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > retrovirus causing a deadly disease over a decade later, after many > years of no symptoms, should be entertained by anyone of sound mind. Have you looked at the paper yet.
Look at fig 1b. Nice core. Nice knobs. 100nm scale for size reference.
Chris Noble
GMCarter - 01 Sep 2006 09:40 GMT >I don't want anyone to "believe" anything; I want the scientific >method to be followed. Oh what a complete f.cking load of crap. You want nothing of the sort. You want to pontificate and snort and bellow and make bold statements that say nothing while utterly ignoring all evidence presented to you.
In short, you're a bullshit blowhard.
George M. Carter
monty1945@lycos.com - 10 Sep 2006 14:42 GMT The "evidence," Mr. Carter?
Quote from David Rasnick:
In '85 I was at a research meeting where HIV was being discussed. An AIDS specialist was asked how much HIV was present in an infected AIDS patient. He was asked, "What's the titer of HIV?"
The titer is the number of infectious virus particles in a blood or tissue sample. A titer of live virus is easily obtainable from the particular tissue that the virus infects. If you have herpes, the sample comes from a cold sore; if it's polio, it's from the intestine; if it's smallpox, it's a pustule; if it's a cold, it's the throat.
When you're infected with a virus, it infects and kills about 30 percent of the specific tissue that it targets before you get any symptoms. You can take a titer of any infected area, put it under a microscope and see millions of living viruses.
So, the virologist was asked, "What's the titer?"
He answered, "Undetectable. Zero."
UNQUOTE.
Source: http://www.pharmharm.com/controversial.html
When you find the "pathogen," do be kind enough to inform the rest of us, Mr. Carter. Until then, I will rely upon the evidence that makes sense and is consistent with physical and biochemical reality, down to the molecular level. For example, even something as "trite" as protein energy malnutrition can cause the changes that are characteristic of "HIV/IDS." But you go ahead and put your faith in the great men of our time, like Mr. Gallo, and see where that gets you.
I thought, how is that possible? How can you be made sick from something that isn't there? With polio, researchers threw away a hundred viruses before they found the right one. I assumed Gallo had simply gotten the wrong virus, and we'd have to start over.
GMCarter - 10 Sep 2006 20:42 GMT >The "evidence," Mr. Carter? > >Quote from David Rasnick: That's not really evidence. It's just the ditherings of a discredited idiot that are really pretty old.
Data have accumulated since 1985. Technologies have improved. It is quite an easy matter to find HIV, to measure viral load, to assess the impact of viral load on immune function, and so forth.
If that's what constitutes "evidence" for you, you are in sad shape, dear. Try to be a bit more up-to-date.
George M. Carter
GMCarter - 24 Aug 2006 12:32 GMT >Mr Carter, I am looking at the bigger picture-an overview if you like. > >The question is simple. Does the HIV virus infect, destroy and spawn >new virii via the t4 cells? A better framed question than your latter list.
HIV infects CD4+ cells. Mostly lymphocytes. Some macrophages and dendritic cells.
>If it doesn't what is the mechanism for inactivating the T4 cells? Some of the cells so infected die. Much of the loss of uninfected CD4+ cells is related to effects of either HIV proteins or activation-induced cell death that occurs as a result of HIV infection.
George M. Carter
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