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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / June 2006Why people still believe HIV causes Aids
The AIDS apologists don't want to debate with the AIDS Denialists because: 1) There's nothing to debate 2) There's nobody worth debating with. One should only debate science with credible scientists, and no credible scientist could ever dispute the causative role of HIV infection in AIDS. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/brown-d2.html JS _________________________ http://www.nightsofarmour.com >1) There's nothing to debate Right. HIV causes AIDS. You're just too stubborn and stupid to see that. >2) There's nobody worth debating with. Right. Most denialists haven't the sense god gave an anencephalic Bush. George M. Carter >> 1) There's nothing to debate > > Right. HIV causes AIDS. > > You're just too stubborn and stupid to see that. On the contrary. As opposed to you, we are able to entertain a thought without accepting it. >> 2) There's nobody worth debating with. > > Right. Most denialists haven't the sense god gave > an anencephalic Bush. Gilmore Girls, after the main personage received 75.000 dollars : "And suddenly, everything mr Bush says all makes sense". These pharma's do not pay you enough. Uwe Hayek.  SignatureL'intellectuel qui pense comme autrui ne sert à rien ! This is the bitterest pain among men, to have much knowledge but no power. Herodotus (484 BC - 430 BC), The Histories of Herodotus IDIOCY - Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. > On the contrary. As opposed to you, we are able to > entertain a thought without accepting it. Uwe, your thoughts on HIV are worth nought if you don't know anything about how the immune system works. Which you just demonstrated in your previous post.. >>On the contrary. As opposed to you, we are able to >>entertain a thought without accepting it. > > Uwe, your thoughts on HIV are worth nought if you don't know anything > about how the immune system works. Which you just demonstrated in your > previous post.. You do not understand enough chemistry. Uwe Hayek. SignatureL'intellectuel qui pense comme autrui ne sert à rien ! This is the bitterest pain among men, to have much knowledge but no power. Herodotus (484 BC - 430 BC), The Histories of Herodotus IDIOCY - Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. snip... >You do not understand enough chemistry. Then we await your brilliance and erudition with baited breath! Oh, do, Uwe, show us the error of our ways! Your brilliance, your shining light of horrifying intellect and devastating perception will clear the clouds of our dread ignorance! Light the way, bright the day, Uwe is here to explain all! Now, attend, one and all. The great Uwe is about to speak! Stifle the breaths! The sound of a pin dropping is thunder to our sensitive ears! Nought but the deep rumble of Uwe's wisdom must distract!! But lo...silence....deeper, stiller yet. Not unlike that in the still, cool darkness of a coffin. George M. Carter > snip... > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > George M. Carter You mixed up your pills, again. Uwe Hayek. SignatureL'intellectuel qui pense comme autrui ne sert à rien ! This is the bitterest pain among men, to have much knowledge but no power. Herodotus (484 BC - 430 BC), The Histories of Herodotus IDIOCY - Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. >You mixed up your pills, again. And there you have it! Such devastating wit! Such brilliance, wisdom and compassion! Great answers and insights--help to the afflicted! Why am I not the tiniest bit surprised. George M. Carter > You do not understand enough chemistry. Well, that's quite possible, but it's no reason for you not to explain your comments about how the immune system responds to pathogens. > The AIDS apologists don't want to debate with the AIDS Denialists because: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/brown-d2.html Politicians have public debates. The place that scientific debate normally occurs is in scientific journals. The "rethinkers" have presented their views in several papers that were published in scientific journals. The Editor-in-chief of Genetica even gave them an entire issue to put their ideas forward specifically to address the claim that "rethinkers' were being censored. Papers responding directly to Duesberg have been published in Science, Nature, Lancet, BMJ etc. Duesberg has in turn responded to these. The outcome was that the vast majority of scientists concluded that Duesberg and other "rethinkers" were wrong. This is all there in the historical record. It is senseless to claim that this hasn't occurred. A small minority of "rethinkers" refuse to accept that they have lost the scientific debate. They insist that the vast majority of scientists that accept the evidence that HIV exists and causes AIDS must be either stupid, ignorant or corrupt. The concept that people have looked at the evidence and at the arguments put forward by "rethinkers" and do not agree with them is apparently unthinkable to them. And yet this is exactly what has occured. And what exactly is Bialy's definition of debate? Calling people who don't agree with him whores? Trying to get people fired? Chris Noble > A small minority of "rethinkers" THE AIDS INDUSTRY AND MEDIA [and the hiv-serfs here] WANT YOU TO THINK THERE ARE ONLY A HANDFUL OF SCIENTISTS WHO DOUBT THE HIV–AIDS THEORY. HERE’S THE REALITY. http://aras.ab.ca/rethinkers.htm “You do not become a 'dissident' just because you decide one day to take up this most unusual career. You are thrown into it by your personal sense of responsibility, combined with a complex set of external circumstances. You are cast out of the existing structures and placed in a position of conflict with them. It begins as an attempt to do your work well, and ends with being branded an enemy of society.” — Václav Havel (Living in Truth, 1986) Uwe Hayek. SignatureL'intellectuel qui pense comme autrui ne sert à rien ! This is the bitterest pain among men, to have much knowledge but no power. Herodotus (484 BC - 430 BC), The Histories of Herodotus IDIOCY - Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. > > A small minority of "rethinkers" > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://aras.ab.ca/rethinkers.htm That list includes Joe Sonnabend. Here is a recent interview with Joe where he talks about his views on HIV and his succesful treatment of his patients with antiretrovirals: http://www.gmhc.org/health/treatment/ti/ti1911.html#3 I wonder how many other people on that list do not "doubt the HIV-ADS theory"? >I wonder how many other people on that list do not "doubt the HIV-ADS >theory"? It's an old, cobbled together list of bullshit denialists have been trotting about for ages. Most of them are not scientists, so not sure what the relevance is. Many people early on questioned the role of HIV in AIDS--many STILL do. That's sensible. But most of the brightest ones from Jay Levy to Shearer, Clerici, Pantaleo, Autran and many others query HOW it causes AIDS, not if. But certainly, the denialists have been made aware of the many errors in it--but never change it. Yet they "updated it" as of yesterday. So, as ever, they'll pull whatever dishonest moves they like. Some comments on a few names. Dr. Robert Root-Bernstein. PhD, Professor of Physiology, Michigan State University Believes HIV exists and causes AIDS. However, thinks there's a probably role for a co-factor. Robert E. Willner. MD, PhD, author of Deadly Deception There's a dead one. Casper Schmidt. MD, New York He was a friend from ACT UP/NY. He died of AIDS. And a lot of it comes from a very old survey that was never followed up. For example, "Arthur Berken. MD Is the human immunodeficiency virus really the initiator of human immunodeficiency? (letter) New York State Journal of Medicine (February 1988)" - I wonder what folks like him currently think? Feh. Lists of names? There's one of several thousands of researchers signed I believe known as the Durban Declaration? Yes--here it is: http://www.reviewingaids.org/awiki/index.php/Durban_Declaration A longer and more recent and far more reliable list. George M. Carter > > > A small minority of "rethinkers" > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I wonder how many other people on that list do not "doubt the HIV-ADS > theory"? I notice that they have finally removed Winstone Zulu from the list. Winstone Zulu stopped taking ARVs after listening to the "rethinkers". He changed his mind after he became seriously ill. He was still on the list earlier this year. http://web.archive.org/web/20050204223426/aras.ab.ca/thelist.htm > > A small minority of "rethinkers" > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://aras.ab.ca/rethinkers.htm The vast majority of people on that list are not scientists in a releavnt field. There are homeopathic doctors, chiropractors, naturopaths, nurses, engineers, mathematicians, journalists, translators etc. There is an inverse relationship between the amount of relevant training and knowledge and the propensity to believe in the nonsense put forward by "rethinkers". This is exactly the same as the lists put forward by Creationists and ID proponents. The more you know about biology and evolution the less likely you are to find creation science or "inteligent design" credible. It is only amongst "AIDS rethinkers" and creationists that ignorance of the field is seen to be a qualification. Chris Noble > It is only amongst "AIDS rethinkers" and creationists that ignorance of > the field is seen to be a qualification. > > Chris Noble Like when Copernicus dared to say that the earth was rotating aurond the sun although he didn't know the bible by heart. ---- My name is Chris Noble. I swear to defend HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, to the bitter end. Everybody who does not agree with me and/or who endangers the thesis that HIV causes AIDS will be declared an "ignorant fool" by me. I will never fail to name every single line of text, written or spoken, which questions the thesis that HIV causes AIDS, "A SAD LOAD OF sh.t". Why are you such a blockhead, Noble? JS --- www.nightsofarmour.com >My name is Jan Spreen. I swear to deny HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, >to the bitter end. Everybody who does not agree with me and/or who >endangers the thesis that HIV doesn't cause AIDS will be declared an "ignorant fool" by >me. I will never fail to name every single line of text, written or >spoken, which questions the thesis that HIV doesn't cause AIDS, "A SAD LOAD OF >sh.t". Why are you such a blockhead, Spreen? > >My name is Jan Spreen. I swear to deny HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, > >to the bitter end. Everybody who does not agree with me and/or who [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Why are you such a blockhead, Spreen? Georgie!!! Why do hit me with my own fantastic arguments written in moments of pure genious inspiration? They're too good! >Georgie!!! Why do hit me with my own fantastic arguments written in moments of pure >genious inspiration? They're too good! Say, Jannie. Do you suppose you've infected Hayek while embracing your idiot beliefs? > >Georgie!!! Why do hit me with my own fantastic arguments written in moments of pure > >genious inspiration? They're too good! > > Say, Jannie. Do you suppose you've infected Hayek while embracing your > idiot beliefs? I don't know. Did he also tell you about the blockhead you are? >> >Georgie!!! Why do hit me with my own fantastic arguments written in moments of pure >> >genious inspiration? They're too good! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >I don't know. I guess you'll find out! > > It is only amongst "AIDS rethinkers" and creationists that ignorance of > > the field is seen to be a qualification. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Like when Copernicus dared to say that the earth was rotating aurond the sun although he > didn't know the bible by heart. I'm afraid you've got the comparison around the wrong way. Homeopaths might have memorised Hahnman's Materia Medica but that doesn't make their opinion of virology valid. Likewise the opinion of engineers, chiropractors etc is unimpressive. The vast majority of people with relevant training accept the evidence that HIV exists and causes AIDS. Assembling a long list of people that on the whole have completely irrelevant training is as valid as asking the pope for his view of quantum physics. Chris Noble
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