Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / June 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

By John Moore and Nicoli Nattrass. The AIDS denialists use pseudoscience and non-peer-reviewed Internet postings to bolster their false claims about H.I.V.  http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/opinion/04moore.html

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Don Saklad - 04 Jun 2006 20:55 GMT
By John Moore and Nicoli Nattrass
The AIDS denialists use pseudoscience and non-peer-reviewed
Internet postings to bolster their false claims about H.I.V.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/opinion/04moore.html
monty1945@lycos.com - 05 Jun 2006 06:31 GMT
Then the best way to confront them is to present a formal scientific
hypothesis, with proposals for experiments that isolate all possible
variables and with precisely-defined language.  If the experiments
fail, then "HIV/AIDS" must be abandoned.  As to specific criticisms, I
am willing to moderate an academic-style debate on my forum, but nobody
from the "establishment" has shown any interes, yet I have found the
Perth Group's analysis to be a great example of how to think in a
manner consistent with the scientific method.  I have seen nothing from
the "establisment" except for what I would call suggestions - what
various biochemical markers could mean, for instance.  Many of these
people don't seem to even be aware of the difference between a proposed
and tentative model and a clear demonstration of the scientific
reality, down to the molecular level (in the case of biological
phenomena).  But "science journalism" seems to be in a sad state of
affairs these days, with a few exceptions like Gary Taubes (who
nontheless appears to not understand the role of oxidized cholesterol
in "heart disease," despite the evidence that now exists).  On the
"book TV" cable channel, there were a couple of "science journalists"
speaking to an audience.  One wrote a book titled "Secret Agents,"
about the "dangers" of "infectious diseases," and the other wrote
"Liberation Biology," about how "disease" will be almost abolished
within a decade or two.  These kinds of books are a good example of
what passes for "journalism" these days.
DavidT - 05 Jun 2006 18:31 GMT
> Then the best way to confront them is to present a formal scientific
> hypothesis, with proposals for experiments that isolate all possible
> variables and with precisely-defined language.

Perhaps you could present your own falsifyable hypothesis on what
causes AIDS, then, or encourage the Perth Group to do so. Until then,
STFU.

The article, which you seem to ignore, makes a number of valid
observations. It is not written by a "journalist" with an agenda such
as Celia Farber, but by 2 scientists who are closely involved with
HIV/AIDS issues.
monty1945@lycos.com - 06 Jun 2006 10:22 GMT
The onus is on the claimant to meet the basic standards of the
scientific method.  However, I would be glad to be given the
opportunity to meet this standard, but in "HIV/AIDS" land, the
definition somehow is believed to trump the scientific method, in that
if I were to show that what "AIDS patients" are exposed to causes the
"syndrome" I would be told "well, it can't be AIDS because they tested
negative and then developed symptoms" (I would isolate the subjects so
that they could not "contract HIV").  Thus, what you are asking is an
impossibility, and the worst aspect of this is that you probably don't
realize how you are violating basic logic and just plain, old common
sense here.
GMCarter - 06 Jun 2006 10:48 GMT
>The onus is on the claimant to meet the basic standards of the
>scientific method.  However, I would be glad to be given the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>realize how you are violating basic logic and just plain, old common
>sense here.

What in the world are you dithering about? Is this supposed to
represent some type of experimental design?

Or merely a confirmation of the Re line....Denialists use
pseudoscience. I'd say that sums up this deranged, poorly thought out,
ethically bankrupt nonsense.

And you claim to have even the remotest clue about scientific methods?

        George M. Carter
DavidT - 06 Jun 2006 14:39 GMT
I can see we're going to have to take this one, slow step at a time.
What do you think causes the syndrome we call "AIDS"?

> The onus is on the claimant to meet the basic standards of the
> scientific method.  However, I would be glad to be given the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> realize how you are violating basic logic and just plain, old common
> sense here.
Gary Stein - 06 Jun 2006 18:33 GMT
You still haven't explained the simple fact that much of today's knowledge
does not conform to your definition of the 'scientific method'. So I ask
again how do you explain integrated circuits, in that they rely on the
unproven (according to your definition of the scientific method) theory of
quantum physics?

Gary Stein

> The onus is on the claimant to meet the basic standards of the
> scientific method.  However, I would be glad to be given the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> realize how you are violating basic logic and just plain, old common
> sense here.
Chris Noble - 07 Jun 2006 04:54 GMT
> The onus is on the claimant to meet the basic standards of the
> scientific method.  However, I would be glad to be given the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> realize how you are violating basic logic and just plain, old common
> sense here.

You don't have a clue about the scientific method.

Can you come up with one single example in the history of science where
proponents of alternative theories B,C,D, ..Z managed to overthrow
theory A, not by producing a complete and coherent theory of their own
but by demanding that the "orthodox" prove theory A to them personally.

This isn't the way that science works. Theories are overthrown when
somebody can produce a better alternative theory. AIDS "dissidents"
cannot produce a single theory that is both complete and cohererent.
They spend their time finding imaginary paradoxes in the HIV/AIDS
theory and demanding that someone prove it to them. Just like Creation
Science/ID proponents.

Why should anyone waste their time trying to prove something to someone
like you that apparently does not accept the "germ theory of disease"?

Chris Noble
DavidT - 08 Jun 2006 12:32 GMT
Hullo....?
Anyone home?
monty1945@lycos.com - 08 Jun 2006 16:55 GMT
No there appears to be nothing much going on between their ears, does
there?  They have no idea of what the scientific method requires, and
apparently, never will.  Thus, it seems as though there would first
have to be clarification and agreement on this issue before one could
even begin to talk about "HIV" and "AIDS."
DavidT - 08 Jun 2006 17:09 GMT
Sorry, Monty - my comment refers to you, and links on from your last
entry.
In case you have forgotten, the question was "What do you think is the
cause of the syndrome that is termed AIDS?"

> No there appears to be nothing much going on between their ears, does
> there?  They have no idea of what the scientific method requires, and
> apparently, never will.  Thus, it seems as though there would first
> have to be clarification and agreement on this issue before one could
> even begin to talk about "HIV" and "AIDS."

Break it up into little steps if you like - why don't you start with a
concisely-stated hypothesis?
Gary Stein - 09 Jun 2006 21:29 GMT
> No there appears to be nothing much going on between their ears, does
> there?  They have no idea of what the scientific method requires, and
> apparently, never will.

Cat calling kettle black again there Monty. Sadly it is you that has a
mistaken and confused understanding of what the Scientific Method is nor do
you grasp the context in which that term is used.

Gary Stein
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.