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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / June 2006

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Hunt the denialists

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js - 30 May 2006 00:10 GMT
Cornillon - France

the 28th of May 2006

Open letter to ACTUP New York IV

To: CMAC via ACTUP New York

CC: Everybody else

Object:      Hunting the denialists

     (Follow-up of "Open letter to ACTUP New York III" subject
"Inconsistency track down articles" sent the 11th of April 2006)

Dear friends,

Time flows past but nobody cares. What will we become when time is over,
when it's too late to undertake what has been left undone? Well, never mind.
Just the expression of inner deception caused by three unanswered letters.
Sometimes people call me "the philosopher". Or "the poet". Then they laugh.
It hurts.

I figure you didn't even bother to try to reach Glaxo-Wellcome on my behalf.
Or maybe you did but they refused my proposal?

Anyway, I recently came across an entry in the Wikipedia, the free Internet
encyclopedia, that gave me some fresh inspiration and I'm quite sure that
you'll be very excited about this fourth letter I send you. The information
proposed by the Wikipedia is anonymous and as such, I cannot send this
message directly to the people who wrote it all. But I presume you know the
people hiding away so I leave it to you to inform them and drop them a line
on my behalf.

In my third letter to you I offered my services to track down the
uncountable inconsistencies you and your friends have published on the
Internet, so as to reinforce your positions in the battle against the nasty
and yet so very clever Aids denialists.

But since I read about what I figure must be the little sister of the
South-African Treatment Action Committee I referred to in my latest post -
TAC has been sued and condemned in court recently, I believe? -, I had a far
better idea: instead of improving the clumsy theories of the Aids
establishment, I will help you to hunt down the people who dare oppose to
scientific authority! Of course! Who needs improvement after all opposition
has ceased?

The target of Aids establishment's newborn action committee is well know and
eminent Aids dissident Christine Maggiore. Thus, logically and creatively,
the action committee has been baptized the "Christine Maggiore Action
Committee" or CMAC (pronounced smack).

Mrs. Maggiore has become a real pain in the a.s for the Aids industry and I
imagine CMAC reckons the fact of bringing her down will be dynamite
exploding in the deniers' faces. To achieve the fall of Christine Maggiore,
CMAC has smartly imagined - after how many sessions of intensive brain
storming one can only guess - a strategy consisting of pure bravery: hold
Christine Maggiore publicly responsible for the death of her three year old
daughter, Eliza Jane.

Since Mrs. Maggiore has tested HIV+ some decades ago, the cause of her
daughter's death must have been an Aids related disease which has become
fatal due to the dissident mother's refusal to submit her daughter to
regular medical care (principally the administration of highly toxic yet
life saving miracle drugs). This is simple and very efficient warfare: In
modern society people are dying to throw the first stone and nowadays the
mere action of throwing stones, even virtually, at the head of the accused,
purifies the thrower.

One thing must not be forgotten though and this is where I enter the scene.
It's a three word booby trap and the way you're heading for it now you'll be
brought on your knees in no time. I admit it is and old fashioned concept
and I bet it didn't even occur to you, as the thought will not spontaneously
pop up in the brains of so many others either, but you should not forget
that a lot of people still believe in what may be called:

Mother-child affection

I'm convinced the best way to get around this sticky problem - which may
cause your action against Mrs. Maggiore to blow up into your own face -, is
to teach people that the whole concept of loving parents is bloody nonsense.
Driving that lesson home should be easy for people who achieved to make the
whole wide world believe that a never isolated micro-organism like HIV has
the striking capacities of wiping away the population of entire continents.

To help you on your way, I will now give you some hints and show clearly how
to play the dirty game. Air the next kind of messages through your many
available PR canals (remember: ANY message holds the candle if repeated
infinitely) and you'll be doing fine:

Normal people care about a car, a house, a job. Whining babies and shrieking
little children are no fun at all and where would we be without baby
sitters, schools and one hundred TV channels for kids? Generally spoken,
parents don't care about children at all and many people seem to have
forgotten the historical facts, but uncaring parents are exactly why school
has become mandatory in the first place. And for the same reason, regular
hospital visits and medical treatment should be imposed too.

Children need to be protected from their parents because deep down in their
little black hearts, parents don't like their kids. Only school teachers,
aids-activists, nurses and doctors do. Those people take lovingly care of
children and, also, kids are often part of their monthly pay whereas parents
reckon a child only costs money. And don't forget: without children to teach
or heal, child care workers would be trapped whereas without their kids,
parents would be free. Many old fashioned people don't realize this and all
the others, the people who do realize, generally don't dare to admit the
fact.

Inform people with this kind of messages repeated ad infinitum to make
parents aware of - and have them admit - their natural aversion of children.

I guarantee: Christine Maggiore will be up creek without a paddle in no
time.

Regards,

Jan Spreen

http://www.nightsofarmour.com

P.S.

I just found a CMAC email address. I'll send them my letter too so don't
bother about that.
GMCarter - 30 May 2006 00:36 GMT
>The target of Aids establishment's newborn action committee is well know and
>eminent Aids dissident Christine Maggiore. Thus, logically and creatively,
>the action committee has been baptized the "Christine Maggiore Action
>Committee" or CMAC (pronounced smack).

I think she's suffered enough considering her foolish denialism
resuted in the unnecessary early death of her daughter.

        George M. Carter
Brian Mailman - 30 May 2006 03:00 GMT
>>The target of Aids establishment's newborn action committee is well know and
>>eminent Aids dissident Christine Maggiore. Thus, logically and creatively,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I think she's suffered enough considering her foolish denialism
> resuted in the unnecessary early death of her daughter.

Doesn't seem she's recanted any, though?.... I haven't seen any
statements she's rethought her rethinking.

B/
Chris Noble - 31 May 2006 05:29 GMT
> >>The target of Aids establishment's newborn action committee is well know and
> >>eminent Aids dissident Christine Maggiore. Thus, logically and creatively,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> B/

I don't think it is likely. It is natural to retreat further into
Denialism after something like this. Who has the personal strength to
admit that their inaction might have caused the death of someone that
they loved? I listened to her interview with fellow Denialist Fintan
Dunne. The whole thing is heart breaking.

It is people like Duesberg who should  bear the majority of the guilt.
But I don't think Duesberg will ever admit to being wrong either.

The case of Raphael Lombardo demonstrates in precise detail the
cognitive dissonance and Denialism that Duesberg is capable of. HIV+
"rethinkers" should be aware that if you follow Duesberg's advice,
reject ARV's and still die of AIDS you will be accused of secretly
taking drugs.

Raphael Lombardo was portrayed as being scientific proof that if you
don't do recreational drugs or take ARV's you won't die from AIDS.
Later, the fact that he died from AIDS was evidence that he really did
drugs.

Domink Feld was put forward by the quack Matthias Rath as scientific
proof of his quack therapies. After Domink died with a massive tumour
he was then evidence of a global conspiracy to persecute Rath.
http://www.dr-rath-foundation.org.za/open_letters/true_story_dominik.html

Dominik's parents are still supporters of Rath even after official
autopsies confirmed that Dominik died from cancer.
http://www.dr-rath-foundation.org.za/open_letters/dominik_speech_feld.htm

Nozipho Bhengu was presented as "scientific proof"  for the lemon juice
and garlic diet supported by Manto. Now that she has died will any of
the Denialists "rethink" their claims or will the move further into
Denialism.

Chris Noble
js - 31 May 2006 10:50 GMT
> I don't think it is likely. It is natural to retreat further into
> Denialism after something like this. Who has the personal strength to
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Chris Noble

Many have been presented as "scientific proof" of the efficiency of miracle
drug AZT. Now they have all died apologists rethink their approach and claim
that HIV is much smarter and far more difficult to tackle than they had
imagined.

Whatever.

Noble, Carter and Mailman closely lining up behind my message. What an
honor. The essential "force de frappe" of the Aids establishment
concentrated in this one thread to hunt the denialists. Bummer they didn't
read my mail, chew the message en and write a more appropriate reaction.
Brian Mailman - 31 May 2006 18:11 GMT
> Noble, Carter and Mailman closely lining up behind my message. What an
> honor. The essential "force de frappe" of the Aids establishment

Wow.  You've got more problems than previously thought if you think
somehow we're "the establishment."

And those problems are waaaay above my payscale.

Comma, "Claster."

B/
js - 31 May 2006 18:29 GMT
> > Noble, Carter and Mailman closely lining up behind my message. What an
> > honor. The essential "force de frappe" of the Aids establishment
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> B/

No, you're not the establishment. You're just part of the dummies defending
the establishement. Oh, good! I see DavidT has joined too. Now your team is
complete, as far as I know and I can sit down and listen to the pack.

Warf, warf, warf.
Gary Stein - 31 May 2006 23:55 GMT
Not all have died, there are thousands like me who have been using AZT daily
for a decade and are still here.

Gary Stein

>> I don't think it is likely. It is natural to retreat further into
>> Denialism after something like this. Who has the personal strength to
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> concentrated in this one thread to hunt the denialists. Bummer they didn't
> read my mail, chew the message en and write a more appropriate reaction.
js - 01 Jun 2006 06:43 GMT
> Not all have died, there are thousands like me who have been using AZT daily
> for a decade and are still here.
>
> Gary Stein

Yeah. In France we call it "l'exception qui confirme la règle"
GMCarter - 01 Jun 2006 12:04 GMT
>> Not all have died, there are thousands like me who have been using AZT
>daily
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Yeah. In France we call it "l'exception qui confirme la règle"

Oui. Et le règle est que VIH est la cause de SIDA.

Tu pete plus haut de ton cul, monsieur.

        Georges M. Cartier
js - 02 Jun 2006 09:49 GMT
> >> Not all have died, there are thousands like me who have been using AZT
> >daily
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Georges M. Cartier

Wow ! Now I see it clearly written in French, I finally understand. VIH est
la cause du SIDA. Never really got it but now I see. Thanks Carter for
shining bright.

I'll write it down some more times so I'll never forget:

La règle est que le VIH est la cause du SIDA.
La règle est que le VIH est la cause du SIDA.
La règle est que le VIH est la cause du SIDA.
La règle est que le VIH est la cause du SIDA.
La règle est que le VIH est la cause du SIDA.
GMCarter - 02 Jun 2006 11:02 GMT
>Wow ! Now I see it clearly written in French, I finally understand. VIH est
>la cause du SIDA. Never really got it but now I see. Thanks Carter for
>shining bright.

Jan, you are a fool.
js - 02 Jun 2006 13:29 GMT
> >Wow ! Now I see it clearly written in French, I finally understand. VIH est
> >la cause du SIDA. Never really got it but now I see. Thanks Carter for
> >shining bright.
>
> Jan, you are a fool.

Yeah, I know.  Every time I discuss with an Aids apologist, he invariably
ends up calling me a fool. I like that. It makes me belong to a very select
group of people who find out about things before others do.

And also don't forget: a fool can ask more question than a wise man can
answer.

Do you think of yourself as a wise man, George?
GMCarter - 31 May 2006 11:14 GMT
snip..
>Nozipho Bhengu was presented as "scientific proof"  for the lemon juice
>and garlic diet supported by Manto. Now that she has died will any of
>the Denialists "rethink" their claims or will the move further into
>Denialism.

Others put themselves forward as "proof" HIV was harmless. David
Pasquarelli died of AIDS. Other denialists, like so many others, met
similar fates.

And so many who WANT treatment and know what's killing them can't get
it because George Bush and his lot of sh.ts want to turn PEPFAR into a
slush fund for Pharma. Just like Iraq+Halliburton or Katrina+cronies.

Lots of bullshit. Lies. "Abstinence-only" crap...money floats around
in vast quantities. Millions die.

And the US delegation at UNGASS REFUSES ADAMANTLY to identify the
vulnerable populations of males who have sex with males, injection
drug users or sex workers (among others). They have this hypocritical
sense of moral righteousness that they cling to while shoveling more
money into the hands of their corporate supporters.

If there's life after death, I hope they get to meet everyone they
harmed and intimately experience their grief, loss, pain and
suffering.

        George M. Carter
Chris Noble - 01 Jun 2006 11:16 GMT
> snip..
> >Nozipho Bhengu was presented as "scientific proof"  for the lemon juice
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Pasquarelli died of AIDS. Other denialists, like so many others, met
> similar fates.

We shouldn't forget that Christine Maggiore also presented her children
to the public as "scientific proof" that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. It is
hypocritical to complain about media attention now that Eliza Jane died
from what is apparently AIDS.

Chris Noble
DavidT - 31 May 2006 18:01 GMT
What a sad and sorry tale. How did it all turn out in the end - did
Rath get charged, or Dominik's doctors?

> Domink Feld was put forward by the quack Matthias Rath as scientific
> proof of his quack therapies. After Domink died with a massive tumour
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> autopsies confirmed that Dominik died from cancer.
> http://www.dr-rath-foundation.org.za/open_letters/dominik_speech_feld.htm
Chris Noble - 01 Jun 2006 11:09 GMT
> What a sad and sorry tale. How did it all turn out in the end - did
> Rath get charged, or Dominik's doctors?

Rath seems to have largely escaped the consequences.

One court judgement stops him from making false claims about the
efficacy of his pills in Germany

http://tinyurl.com/pwtqu

I think a Doctor that was treating Dominik before Rath got his claws on
him is suing Rath for slander/libel.

Meanwhile Rath is busy trying to bullshit his way out of admitting
blame for Dominik's death.

In 2004 he managed to get a temprary injunction to stop the press from
printing that Dominik was his patient or that he had incorrectly
treated him to death.

http://www4ger.dr-rath-foundation.org/DIE_FOUNDATION/verfuegung_dec04.pdf

Rath's cock-and-bull explanation was that even though he was claiming
Dominik as proof of his Cellular-medicine he wasn't his personal
doctor. Never mind that he convinced the parents to stop conventional
treatment including pain therapy.

http://www4ger.dr-rath-foundation.org/DIE_FOUNDATION/urteils-begrundung_acrobat5.pdf


Chris Noble
DavidT - 01 Jun 2006 15:21 GMT
Sorry Chris - all the links are greek to me!

Intriguingly, the second link has certain sections blacked out,
presumably for reasons of confidentiality.
(http://www4ger.dr-rath-foundation.org/DIE_FOUNDATION/verfuegung_dec04.pdf)

Yet if I grab and pull the document, the formatting shifts, enabling me
to read some of the hidden text. So I can see that No 2 is a certain
David Becker, and No 3. is a Christopher Fischer, for example.
The black boxes are evidently a complete failure.
Is some regulation being broken here?
DavidT - 01 Jun 2006 15:23 GMT
Sorry, I mean Dieter Becker - misread the darn thing.
> Sorry Chris - all the links are greek to me!
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> The black boxes are evidently a complete failure.
> Is some regulation being broken here?
Chris Noble - 02 Jun 2006 05:40 GMT
> > Sorry Chris - all the links are greek to me!

Or in other words: Das kommt mir spanisch vor.

I can't find that much detailed information in English.

Axel-Springer publish Bild a tabloid paper with a focus on politics,
sport, scandals and sex. See bild.de

They have printed a series of articles about the case of Dominik Feld.

The bit that infuriates me is that even though Rath convinced Dominik's
desperate parents to stop convential treatment and then pronounced that
his methods cured Dominik he then goes to great lengths to deny any
responsibility for his death.

> > Intriguingly, the second link has certain sections blacked out,
> > presumably for reasons of confidentiality.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> > The black boxes are evidently a complete failure.
> > Is some regulation being broken here?

No idea. I don't know who put the black boxes in the pdf. It could have
been somebody at the Rath foundation. In my version of acroread the
boxes stay firmly attached.

I presume that these people are employees, perhaps lawyers for
Axel-Springer

Chris Noble.
 
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