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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / May 2006

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Purposefully infect yourself with herpes to develop antibodies?

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cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com - 04 May 2006 21:21 GMT
After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
infection.  Until you develop antibodies you may spread the infection.
Would it be possible to purposefully infect a very small patch of skin,
for instance, on the back of your arm above your elbow perhaps, so that
you would devlop antibodies, have very minor symptoms, and after 12-16
weeks be protected from ever contracting the disease elsewhere?
Banty - 04 May 2006 21:50 GMT
>After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
>months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>you would devlop antibodies, have very minor symptoms, and after 12-16
>weeks be protected from ever contracting the disease elsewhere?

You may spread the infection even if you do have antibodies.  Certainly during a
symptomatic non-primary outbreak, or even if you're asymptomatic (or having a
sub-symptomatic outbreak).  Not only during the primary infection.

And once infected, you're infected, as is try for all the Herpes family viruses.

So there's no reason to do this.

No magic solution to this one.

Banty

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cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com - 05 May 2006 02:00 GMT
> >After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
> >months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> symptomatic non-primary outbreak, or even if you're asymptomatic (or having a
> sub-symptomatic outbreak).  Not only during the primary infection.

That's not what I've read.  I've read that after 12-16 weeks you are
generally immune to further infection.  For instance, if you have oral
herpes HSV-1 on your mouth, then you will not be at risk for
contracting from someone else on your genitals through oral sex.

From: http://www.herpes.com/hsv1-2.html
"A prior infection with oral HSV-1 lowers the risk of acquiring genital
HSV-1 even further. Studies show that genital HSV-1 infections almost
always occur in people who have no prior infection with HSV of either
type (Corey, Annals of Internal Medicine, 1983).

In the absence of prior oral infection, however, HSV-1 spreads easily
to the genital area, usually through oral sex. In some countries, such
as Japan and parts of Great Britain, genital HSV-1 is as common as
genital HSV- 2, or more common.

"Prevalence rates of genital HSV-1 differ based on the practice of oral
sex and on the percentage of people who are HSV-1 positive from
childhood," explains Anna Wald, MD researcher at the University of
Washington at Seattle.

Finally, the question of immunity and HSV types is complicated by an
additional issue. Some studies suggest that the ganglia themselves may
acquire some immunity to HSV after they are exposed to one viral type.

In the laboratory, infection of ganglia with more than one virus is
difficult, suggesting that it may be more difficult to acquire a second
HSV type in a location where you already have HSV. A prior genital
infection with HSV-1, for example, may give more protection against
genital HSV-2 than a prior oral infection with HSV-1.

What does all this mean on a practical level? Let's look at some
examples to find out. Say you have genital HSV-1 and your partner has
genital HSV-2. If you have unprotected sex, there is a small but real
risk that you will get HSV-2, resulting in more outbreaks and more
shedding. "We have documented cases where a person acquires HSV-2 after
a prior genital HSV- 1 infection," says Wald. "I don't think it happens
often, but it does happen."

On the other hand, it's very unlikely that your partner will get
genital HSV- 1 from you. "I've never seen a case of a person acquiring
HSV-1 on top of HSV-2," says Wald. "It's possible, but it would be
unusual."

What if your partner has genital HSV-2 and you perform oral sex on him
or her? Will you get HSV- 2 in the mouth? Given the widespread practice
of oral sex (some three-quarters of all adults practice it, according
to The Social Organization of Sexuality, 1994) and the prevalence of
genital HSV-2 infection, you might expect oral HSV-2 to be relatively
common. It's not.

According to one study, almost 100% of recognizable HSV-2 infection is
genital (Nahmias, Scandinavian Journal of Infectious Diseases
Supplement, 1990). One reason is that most adults are already infected
with HSV-1 orally, which provides some immunity against infection with
HSV 2. Another reason is that oral HSV-2 rarely reactivates, so even if
an infection does exist, no one knows.

So far we've been talking about transmission of HSV-1 or 2 from its
site of preference. What about transmission from another site? Say you
acquire genital HSV-1 through oral sex. Can you spread the virus to a
partner through genital sex?

The answer is yes, but probably not as easily as it was spread through
oral sex. The main reason is that the virus reactivates and sheds less
often outside its site of preference. Only about one quarter of people
with genital HSV- 1 shed virus at all in the absence of symptoms, while
55% of people with HSV-2 do (Wald, New England Journal of Medicine,
1995). "Shedding data appear to parallel recurrence data, meaning that
people who have a lot of recurrences also have a lot of shedding," says
Wald.

While HSV- 1 can be spread from genitals to genitals, "we think it is
spread more easily through oral sex because HSV-1 reactivates more
frequently in the oral area," says Wald. However, she warns,
"transmission of genital HSV-1 during asymptomatic shedding has been
documented." In other words, genital HSV-1 can be spread through
genital sex, even when there are no symptoms. "Good" Virus/ "Bad" Virus

If HSV infection is as easily transmitted from the mouth as from the
genitals, then why do people take steps to prevent genital but not oral
infection? Why don't we kiss through dental dams ?

"It's ironic, isn't it?" says Wald. "It's not about health, it's about
social acceptability."

Scientists can tell us all day that the main difference between the two
viral types is simply their site of preference-whether they typically
occur above the waist or below. But the unspoken attitudes of our
society send a different message. That's just the problem, social
attitudes whisper. Below the waist is bad.

"People think of oral herpes as the "good" herpes and genital herpes as
the "bad" kind," says Glover of the National Herpes Hotline. "It's
partly that they don't understand the similarities between HSV-1 and 2.
But it's also that good and bad is how our culture views sex and our
bodies."

The inescapable fact is that HSV-1 is usually spread through contact
with infected lips, while HSV-2 usually spread through contact with
infected genitals. From a social point of view, the problem is not the
disease; it's how you got it.

Whether we like it or not, the social prejudice against genital herpes,
no matter which virus causes it, is a reality. "People have more
trouble explaining to a new partner that they have genital herpes, even
if it's HSV- 1, than if they have a cold sore," says Glover. "Just
saying the word "genital" is like an anvil that pulls the sentence
down".

Is this topic making you crazy? For people who have trouble dealing
with social attitudes toward genital herpes, the blatant double
standard society applies to oral herpes can be frustrating, to say the
least.

"Talk to a wise friend," suggests Rebecca, a health communication
specialist on the National Herpes Hotline. "Join a support group. Find
Someone you respect and exchange ideas them. It's always reassuring to
see that not everyone lives inside the walls our society builds around
sexual issues and realities. "

It's also worth hoping that new research on the similarities between
HSV-1 and 2, as well as increased public education about genital
herpes, can help lower the level of misunderstanding about both types
of the virus. Today, the greatest difference between HSV- 1 and 2
appears to be the way we think about them. Tomorrow, that may
change...."

> And once infected, you're infected, as is try for all the Herpes family viruses.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> --
Banty - 05 May 2006 04:55 GMT
>> >After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
>> >months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>herpes HSV-1 on your mouth, then you will not be at risk for
>contracting from someone else on your genitals through oral sex.

You dont' understand.  Once you're infected, you're infected.  The virus will
reside in your ganglia for further reactivation if/when the conditions are
right.  There's no point in protecting yourself against "further infection" no
more than using contraceptives during pregnancy would protect yourself against
"further pregnancy".

HSV-1 generally is found around the mouth; HSV-2 generally around the genitals,
but not necessarily, and infection from one does not protect you from infection
with the other.  Ganglia are local; people can and do get infected with both
types in two areas.

There really is no *point* in pre-infecting yourself.  It doesn't work that way.

You've put in a post to alt.support.herpes - that's a good group; you really
needn't be going to a parenting group and vaguely related medical groups (aids?
hepataitis?) and polyamory and sex groups about this.

Banty

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cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com - 05 May 2006 06:45 GMT
> >> >After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
> >> >months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> more than using contraceptives during pregnancy would protect yourself against
> "further pregnancy".

I guess you can neither read nor understand simple concepts.  When you
first get the virus and have an outbreak you are capable of infecting
yourself in other places, and spreading the infection.  After you gain
antibodies this is no longer as possible.

> HSV-1 generally is found around the mouth; HSV-2 generally around the genitals,
> but not necessarily, and infection from one does not protect you from infection
> with the other.  Ganglia are local; people can and do get infected with both
> types in two areas.

Although if you read the posted article you would discover that having
one does possibly lower the chance of getting the other in the same
place.

> There really is no *point* in pre-infecting yourself.  It doesn't work that way.

Does it?

> You've put in a post to alt.support.herpes - that's a good group; you really
> needn't be going to a parenting group and vaguely related medical groups (aids?
> hepataitis?) and polyamory and sex groups about this.

If I didn't post elsewhere, I would have less chance of gaining
responses from people smarter than yourself....


> Banty
>
> --
Sue - 05 May 2006 14:43 GMT
<cool@pattayacitythailand.zzn.com> wrote in message
> I guess you can neither read nor understand simple concepts.  When you
> first get the virus and have an outbreak you are capable of infecting
> yourself in other places, and spreading the infection.  After you gain
> antibodies this is no longer as possible.

That is so not true. You need to do some research because once you have
Herpes, you always have it and you can have a break out at any time. It
lives in the ganglia in the spine. You can even infect another person
without an active outbreak.
Signature

Sue (mom to three girls)

Banty - 05 May 2006 15:45 GMT
>> >> >After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
>> >> >months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>yourself in other places, and spreading the infection.  After you gain
>antibodies this is no longer as possible.

What, exactly, are you planning?  Infecting yourself on some non-genital area
(such as the mouth) with HSV-1 and HSV-2 in hopes of sparing your genital area?
Or what?

And you're wrong - a risk of HSV infection anywhere increases the risk of
introducing the virus where you really don't want it, like the eyes, or even the
meninges.

Please discuss your ideas with a physician.  I think you're fishing for
confirmation of your ideas here.

There is no fix to this.  You need to practice safe sex.  (Or 'your' girls in
Thailand, or whatever else is your motivation you have in asking this.)  Even if
HSV was taken off the menu of possible consequences of not doing so, there are a
lot of worse things out there still, believe me.

Banty

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GMCarter - 06 May 2006 12:03 GMT
snip...
>What, exactly, are you planning?  Infecting yourself on some non-genital area
>(such as the mouth) with HSV-1 and HSV-2 in hopes of sparing your genital area?
>Or what?

Maybe the individual is confused by things like live varicella
vaccines.  See, e.g.,
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/352/22/2271

What the individual does not understand is that this virus is
"attenuated" so that it doesn't cause disease.

Merely exposing oneself to a simplex virus is not too wise (but
chances are relatively good that the person already has HSV anyway).
The possibility that a low dose exposure may elicit adequate immunity
upon subsequent exposure with a higher innoculum is dicey at best.

In short, nice try but not likely to be a good idea.

        George M. Carter
Banty - 06 May 2006 13:48 GMT
>snip...
>>What, exactly, are you planning?  Infecting yourself on some non-genital area
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>In short, nice try but not likely to be a good idea.

I think if it were feasible, there would be a vaccine for HSV already.

Banty

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GMCarter - 06 May 2006 23:28 GMT
snip...
>I think if it were feasible, there would be a vaccine for HSV already.

A hopeful but somewhat unlikely thought. The disease doesn't cause so
much trouble (tho lesions may facilitate infections like HIV).

Pharma is more interested in me-too drugs, slight changes in
formulation (usually excipients) to extend patent life and other nudgy
shifts in the blockbuster, oversold, overprescribed and way-overpriced
drugs they like to shove down people's throats til their insurance
caps are maxed. Then those companies may take their turn screwing the
patient, taking up where over-charging hospitals and clinics leave
off. Healthcare in the US: a f.cking mess.

        George M. Carter
Tim Fitzmaurice - 09 May 2006 09:35 GMT
> snip...
>> I think if it were feasible, there would be a vaccine for HSV already.
>
> A hopeful but somewhat unlikely thought. The disease doesn't cause so
> much trouble (tho lesions may facilitate infections like HIV).

Its a very likely thought actually. Lots of people have tried to produce
HSV vaccines. Its just not been successful yet.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568
GMCarter - 09 May 2006 10:54 GMT
snip...
>> A hopeful but somewhat unlikely thought. The disease doesn't cause so
>> much trouble (tho lesions may facilitate infections like HIV).
>
>Its a very likely thought actually. Lots of people have tried to produce
>HSV vaccines. Its just not been successful yet.

Actually, I saw some of the research, and it was rather encouraging.
There are times when I think the whole business has gotten so corrupt
that absolutely nothing that won't guarantee a huge multi-billion
dollar return for the stockholders and CEOs will be ignored.

The situation hasn't QUITE gotten there yet.

        George M. Carter
-L. - 05 May 2006 17:21 GMT
> After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
> months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> you would devlop antibodies, have very minor symptoms, and after 12-16
> weeks be protected from ever contracting the disease elsewhere?

No.  Once infected, the virus becomes systemic.

-L.
shinypenny - 05 May 2006 19:23 GMT
> After contracting either Herpes 1 or 2 it takes 12-16 weeks (3-4
> months) to develop antibodies which will help protect you from further
> infection.  Until you develop antibodies you may spread the infection.
> Would it be possible to purposefully infect a very small patch of skin,
> for instance, on the back of your arm above your elbow perhaps,

I think it would be very difficult to infect yourself on the back of
your arm above your elbow. HSV likes warm moist places like your mouth
and genitals.

> so that
> you would devlop antibodies, have very minor symptoms, and after 12-16
> weeks be protected from ever contracting the disease elsewhere?

If you're worried about this, go out and get a blood test. Chances are
pretty good you're *already* infected with HSV-1, and maybe also even
HSV-2. Lots of people are asymptomatic.

jen
Steve Pope - 05 May 2006 20:33 GMT
>I think it would be very difficult to infect yourself on the back of
>your arm above your elbow. HSV likes warm moist places like your mouth
>and genitals.

Actually, it can infect the fingers of doctors/nurses who have
examined patients without wearing gloves.  It will also
infect the skin of wrestlers, where it has been called
"Herpes Gladiatoris".  

Steve
 
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