Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / April 2006
Seeing what you want to see
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jspreen - 25 Mar 2006 14:21 GMT Open letter to ACTUP New York
To : ACTUP New York CC : Everybody else
Friends,
You must help me. I don't know what to do anymore. Some days ago I was hanging around on the Web again, surfing from one site to another. That's been my main occupation ever since I decided to stay at home and lock everybody out in order to be sure that this fu**ing HIV will never get me by the throat. Internet provides a lot of good information about diseases, especially about HIV and AIDS. And recently also, of course, about that go*da**ed H5N1 virus. Well, no birds around my place so it doesn't really bother me.
I've been reading much about Celia Farber's ridiculous article in Harper's and reading all your debunking articles has been a lot of fun for me. Really keeps me going, you know. The denialists are really too silly for words, it's almost another race of human beings, don't you think so ? Well, you might as well leave the human out of it. Bloody retards, that's what they are.
What bothers me though, is something I read on www.actupny.org :
>> http://www.actupny.org/reports/denialist_harpers.html There's a beautiful picture of three men, denier dummy's of course, burying their heads in the sand. But the phrase next to it, well, it's difficult to say but really, it drives me crazy.
AIDS DENIALISM = SEEING WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE
It must be said that I have read every single article written by you and your friends so I hate the guts of the aids dissidents, but how can I get away with this? Since I have read your definition of AIDS denialism, I am trying very hard to only see what I don't want to see but it doesn't work. For instance, the movie I didn't want to see yesterday, well, I saw it just because I didn't want to see it. And now I'm feeling all messed up because I saw the movie because I wanted to see it because I didn't want to see it. So in the end I saw what I wanted to see. Does that mean that I'm an AIDS denier now?
I can't decide anymore. I finally read Celia Farber's article because I thought that reading the crap myself would get me out of my awkward situation, but the opposite happened: I think Celia's writing does make a lot of sense. Is that because I see in the article what I want to see? It's strange. All of a sudden, I have the impression that we are suffering a total lack of elementary logic where the deniers do seem brilliant. Well, maybe that's also because Celia really looks very cute on that picture. Maybe I'll have some more of the crap. And now I come to think of it: if the deniers were right, I could go unlock my front door and get some fresh air.
Well, I started my letter asking you for help, but now I've written it all down, I don't think I need it anymore. I feel kind of silly all of a sudden. Being locked away from the world and all that. I'm going to have a closer look at virusmyth.com
Regards,
Jan Spreen
GMCarter - 26 Mar 2006 11:45 GMT >Open letter to ACTUP New York snip...
>I can't decide anymore. I finally read Celia Farber's article because I >thought that reading the crap myself would get me out of my >awkward situation, but the opposite happened: I think Celia's writing does >make a lot of sense. Is that because I see in the article what I want to >see? Yep! As you have all along!
George M. Carter
js - 26 Mar 2006 17:24 GMT Le Sun, 26 Mar 2006 12:45:20 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit:
>> Open letter to ACTUP New York > snip... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > George M. Carter Hi Georgie !
Even working during the weekend to try to keep the aids-boat afloat? Lookout there, your shoes are getting wet. I think you really should get a pair of rubber boots to stay dry.
Me? Yeah, I'm working on sundays too. Well, you can't really call it "work". Sinking the aids-boat is my hobby. As a matter of fact, I don't really want it to sink, it's too much fun having people like you around.
Arguing with the aids-boat crew is like shooting fish in a barrel, I love it!
Jan Spreen
GMCarter - 26 Mar 2006 20:17 GMT >Arguing with the aids-boat crew is like shooting fish in a barrel, I love it! Arguing with denialists is fun too. Except when they die of AIDS.
js - 26 Mar 2006 21:03 GMT Le Sun, 26 Mar 2006 21:17:39 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit:
>> Arguing with the aids-boat crew is like shooting fish in a barrel, I >> love it! > > Arguing with denialists is fun too. Except when they die of AIDS. Yeah, you're right there. Bad luck for you Georgie! That's why I'm on the other side. Believers in HIV and AIDS never die. So I'll never be short of people to argue with.
GMCarter - 27 Mar 2006 11:21 GMT >Le Sun, 26 Mar 2006 21:17:39 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Yeah, you're right there. Bad luck for you Georgie! Bad luck for me?? When THEY die???
I don't think so. I think it is a horrific loss because they bought some lies about HIV's existence or its role in causing AIDS.
People like David Pasquarelli, a young, otherwise healthy man. Young people do die. But he died needlessly.
This goes to Sean's invidious crap about HIV. Does it get a "disproportionate" share of attention?
In the sense that MANY infectious diseases are ignored by the R&D communities because they do not yield profitable outcomes, it is disproportionate.
But an infectious disease that wipes out working forces, doctors, nurses, soldiers, statesmen/women, teachers, truckers, sex workers and so forth has destabilizing effects on economies.
It doesn't stop without strong interventions. But many fools try to block access to or discussion of condoms, for example, because of some peculiarly twisted notions of some scriptures. Happily, most people ignore that kind of nonsense but many don't.
HIV is a sexually transmitted disease. It is "vertically" transmitted from mother to child.
AIDS research, care and treatment and other programs need a GREAT DEAL MORE money, frankly--and those resources exist. And better spending of currently available funds.
ALSO: we need MUCH greater investment in diseases like TB, malaria, dengue, Japanese encephalitis, and so forth.
Better way to spend on our efforts than botched wars based on lies, I think.
>That's why I'm on the other side. Believers in HIV and AIDS never die. Silly. Of course, we are all mortal.
Denialists who are HIV+ tend to die earlier than need be. Or worse, they influence public policy, resulting in their own people dying sooner than need be, e.g., Thabo Mbeki.
>So I'll never be short of people to argue with. Until you die. Having spent much of your life spouting nonsense. But then, you'll have lots of company in that regard.
George M. Carter -
js - 27 Mar 2006 16:27 GMT Le Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:21:40 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit:
> Better way to spend on our efforts than botched wars based on lies, I > think. It's a mystery to me how somebody can see the lies of war and be blind for the lies of HIV.
GMCarter - 27 Mar 2006 22:55 GMT >Le Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:21:40 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >It's a mystery to me how somebody can see the lies of war and be blind for >the lies of HIV. No mystery. I've watched too many friends die. From AIDS related to HIV.
I've read to many thousands of pages of medical, basic science and other research. I've attended conferences. I've studied this f.cking disease from every angle for going on 17 years.
Nothing the denialists have said have shown why my friends died. Why so many are living taking a handful of toxic drugs a day.
Nothing explains it better than HIV.
And the sad thing is, your denialist bullshit is like Bush saying the media are at fault. The partial truth of that deflects from the real problem. The media can't help but report the bad news in Iraq. There's lots of it. But their problem was during the run-up to the war, they just bought every f.cking lie the administration put out.
Like denialists buy every lie and fantasy spun out by the likes of the Perth group or the Duesberg bunch--and are utterly BLIND to the cognitive dissonance of trying to believe both at once.
Drugs don't cause AIDS. They can f.ck you up. They can kill you, recreational or prescription. Malnutrition doesn't cause AIDS, though it sure plays hell with immune function. And starvation certainly kills plenty.
But denialism kills pretty effectively too. Christine Maggiore has bought the crap and her daughter died for her embracing the nonsense. Numerous denialists who COULD have had treatment--well, most of them are dead. Many tho died long ago when everyone was dying and the treatment was crap monotherapy.
Others survived--some because they attended to nutrition, exercise, muscle building to offset wasting, managing gut function and so forth.
But NOTHING the denialists have put forward explains AIDS better than HIV.
George M. Carter
js - 28 Mar 2006 07:36 GMT Le Mon, 27 Mar 2006 23:55:14 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit:
> I've read to many thousands of pages of medical, basic science and > other research. I've attended conferences. I've studied this f.cking > disease from every angle for going on 17 years. Even ten million pages of nonsense won't get you anywhere near the truth, Georgie. May I doubt the every angle? And why are you so angry and absolutely humorless?
Those are often the caracteristics of people who know they are wrong but don't want to admit they are.
GMCarter - 28 Mar 2006 13:07 GMT >Le Mon, 27 Mar 2006 23:55:14 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Even ten million pages of nonsense won't get you anywhere near the truth, >Georgie. Agreed, Jennie. Most of the nonsense I've seen has come from fuckwads like the "Perth Group," Celia Farber, John Lauritsen and Peter Duesberg.
>May I doubt the every angle? And why are you so angry and absolutely >humorless? LOL. I've got plenty of humor--but I'm a bit short on it when it comes to a.sholes and idiots.
>Those are often the caracteristics of people who know they are wrong but >don't want to admit they are. Tell that to David Pasquarelli.
Oh! Wait. You can't.
He died of AIDS believing your brand of bullshit.
George M. Carter
js - 28 Mar 2006 16:13 GMT Le Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:07:08 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit:
> He died of AIDS believing your brand of bullshit. Chapeau ! Georgie, you do have a point there, I must admit.
It is a fact that about 27 people died of AIDS since the beginning of the epidemic, all of them dissidents. I'm gonna have a closer look to improve my understanding of what AIDS scientists really say.
One of them, I already know. It's Jean Claude Chermann. Co-discoverer of HIV. He has a very wise philosophy saying: "It's not because you cannot see it that it's not there".
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jan.spreen/21rst.pdf
Some clever scientist he is!
Good to have the Internet, keeps me from becoming too stupid. You're doing a great job opening other people's eyes,Georgie. Keep hangin' around.
Jan Spreen
GMCarter - 29 Mar 2006 00:45 GMT snip
>Good to have the Internet, keeps me from becoming too stupid. You're doing >a great job opening other people's eyes,Georgie. Keep hangin' around. Oh, I will Jennie poo. But I am almost 100% certain that you'll stay just as f.cking braindead stupid as you apparently have been for quite some time!
js - 29 Mar 2006 09:43 GMT Le Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:45:27 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit:
> Oh, I will Jennie poo. But I am almost 100% certain that you'll stay > just as f.cking braindead stupid as you apparently have been for quite > some time! Quite some time, you're right there. One bright man you are, Georgie! And the ideas I have! It's incredible. Every time I mention them, people immediately become agressive and start throwing mud. Nobody ever came up with a clever argument against, just lots and lots and lots of dirt.
Hey, instead of calling people names and reading the same crap over and over again,why don't you have a look at this for once? I bet you never read one of them to the end. Especially 21rst.pdf. I think it's a nice story, even if you don't agree with my ideas. You kow George, I didn't invent that conference, it really happenend that way. The 23rd of june 2001 in a little town called Mouans Sartoux, near Nice in the south of France.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jan.spreen/21rst.pdf http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jan.spreen/aids.pdf http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jan.spreen/scac.pdf
Enjoy!
GMCarter - 29 Mar 2006 15:11 GMT >Hey, instead of calling people names and reading the same crap over and >over again,why don't you have a look at this for once? I bet you never >read one of them to the end. Why bother? The title is a good start: Can anybody explain whats going on, please? Jan Spreen
You quite clearly can't. I see you had an inane conversation with an unidentified "chemist." That's what you base your opinion upon.
Underscores your abject ignorance of science.
Tell me--why is there no flu vaccine after all these years? I mean, you can take a Hep B vaccine and that's it (unless you're immune compromised due to HIV infection or being very elderly). One series of shots, all done...at least for 5-10 years....
But how come? Not just one flu shot and your done! Gosh.
Then you list some of the cranks who still assert that HIV does not cause AIDS with one glaring error. Joe Sonnabend recognizes that HIV exists and causes AIDS.
Those quotes are all over 10 years old.
The rest of your dithering about cancer again shows an extraordinarily weak mind.
George M. Carter
js - 29 Mar 2006 15:49 GMT Le Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:11:29 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit:
> Tell me--why is there no flu vaccine after all these years? You ask me a question but I'm sure you will not listen to answer.
I'll give you an answer though: There is no flu vaccin as there is no vaccin for any other disease. Vaccination is a lie and a rip off. Do some Googling with Antoine Bechamp and read the history about the fake science of Louis Pasteur. Then you'll know.
Well, of course not you, Georgie, I know. You will never change your mind. But other people will.
GMCarter - 29 Mar 2006 16:46 GMT >Le Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:11:29 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I'll give you an answer though: There is no flu vaccin as there is no >vaccin for any other disease. Vaccination is a lie and a rip off. Yep. You're a perfect candidate for Team Denialist.
Tell that to Smallpox.
George M. Carter
Brian Mailman - 29 Mar 2006 17:49 GMT > Yep. You're a perfect candidate for Team Denialist. So, is this Frod or Diablo? I tend to the latter, but there's elements of both here.
B/
GMCarter - 30 Mar 2006 12:22 GMT >> Yep. You're a perfect candidate for Team Denialist. > >So, is this Frod or Diablo? I tend to the latter, but there's elements >of both here. Neither...I think Jan is actually the 4th denialist here.
I can tell frodlet in a heartbeat--and you really shouldn't invoke!! lol....oh well. Maybe he HAS found some peace and healing?
George M. Carter
montygram - 31 Mar 2006 07:25 GMT Just get some "HIV negative" gay college dropout volunteers, confine them to a campus so that they can't get "infected with HIV," allow them to party the way people did in the early 80s, give them a lot of antibiotics, corticosteriods, and poppers, let them have plenty of anal sex, give them a typical college student "junk food" diet, and then after 2 years of this, give them AZT for at least 2 years.
What will happen? They will then be dying of "AIDS" and be "HIV positive." And then only someone who is beyond deluded would be able to insist that "HIV" exists and causes "AIDS." This is how science is done, that is, you design an experiment that is conclusive, that leaves no room for doubts. This experiment would debunk the "dissident" claims if none of the subjects were dying of "AID"-like disorders.
Thus, there is no reason NOT to do this ASAP, because the establishment appears to fear that poor, helpless "HIV infected" people will be misled by the "dissidents," and so this experiment would go a long way to preventing this from happening.
However, because the establishment has abandoned the scientific method in favor of press conference announcements and assumptions based upong assumptions, based upon the proclamations made at the press conferences, this will not happen any time soon. Therefore, we have a situation where reason is pitted against the power that the establishment "scientists" possess to stop those who disagree from getting their views out to the "masses." Now, with the internet, that is no longer possible, and at some point this farce will come to an end. The only questions are, how long will it take and exactly how it will happen?
GMCarter - 31 Mar 2006 11:54 GMT >Just get some "HIV negative" gay college dropout volunteers, confine >them to a campus so that they can't get "infected with HIV," allow them >to party the way people did in the early 80s, give them a lot of >antibiotics, corticosteriods, and poppers, let them have plenty of anal >sex, give them a typical college student "junk food" diet, and then >after 2 years of this, give them AZT for at least 2 years. Darling, all that happens (without the AZT) and people do not get AIDS. It just doesn't happen. If that were the case, I'd've died of AIDS ages ago. And so would lots of my straight friends.
By contrast, I've had friends who did NOT do any or much of that and they did develop AIDS. Too many of those friends died.
Now, many of my friends have been staying alive a LOT longer than people were in the 80s. And sometimes they take AZT, sometimes not. If they take ARV, it's a combination of drugs that should kill people immediately, according to this brain dead hypothesis.
Some of my friends still do not take ARV. One woman I know has managed to hold off on ARV for years. Another for well over a decade. Mostly, these are people who take good care of their health, exercise, use micronutrients and botanicals, stress reduction. That may be "selection bias" so I can't say that those are the absolute certain reasons they have been able to avoid ARV--but I am pretty confident it helps.
But even they are seeing their CD4 counts decline, albeit much more slowly. They have other health problems that arise as a result of the HIV infection--and then the other stuff that humans face aside from HIV.
But your vast experiment has been done. And it is STILL being done. Alcohol is a lot more debilitating, and college kids have been swallowing HUGE amounts. They do drugs of all kinsds. Speed is popular among young people (and some older ones). It is horrifically physically debilitating. Heroin still has its adherents. Then there's all the "new" drugs like ecstasy (I know, it ain't new), special K...and an increased popularity of prescription meds (e.g., oxycodone).
People do LOTS of drugs. Sometimes they die as a result--directly from overdoses, indirectly from car accidents probably most typically.
But they don't develop AIDS.
George M. Carter
Gary Stein - 10 Apr 2006 05:03 GMT Well if this was Nazi Germany in the 1930's you might be able to round up a bunch of political criminals and run your so called experiment. But do you honestly think if you presented your study to the potential participants in the manner you describe it bellow that you would find a single individual willing to enroll in the study?
Of course your ignorance is showing yet again, back in the 1980's and early 1990's studies were done that examined the medical records of thousands of AIDS patients going back as far as the they could find records. Guess what they did not show any of the factors you list bellow in any kind of statistically significant number. Gay men with AIDS did not have medical histories of Antibiotic, or coritcosteriod use above the national average. Popper use was studied intensely and before the ban of real nitrate inhalers in the 1990's there was an even wider base of data on the effects of long term nitrate inhaler use because it was and is commonly prescribed to Hart patients who used it in very high quantities and who never got AIDS.
As to you claims about a bad diet somehow being able to cause AIDS how do you explain the simple fact that that has never been seen in hunger strike participants, modern eating disorder patients or famine victims.
Your arguments have been so thoroughly debunked over the last 20 years even you must realize that simple fact, and simply choose to ignore it because your thinking is so totally based on faith and emotion as to make pesky evidence to the contrary totally irrelevant to your thought processes.
Gary Stein
> Just get some "HIV negative" gay college dropout volunteers, confine > them to a campus so that they can't get "infected with HIV," allow them [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > end. The only questions are, how long will it take and exactly how it > will happen? Brian Mailman - 27 Mar 2006 00:55 GMT >>Arguing with the aids-boat crew is like shooting fish in a barrel, I love it! > > Arguing with denialists is fun too. Except when they die of AIDS. I noticed that too. They're not much fun at ALL after that.
Except as plot lines on CSI involving the mortician's assistant, which as Maggie Smith playing Mrs Dora Charleston in "Murder by Death" pointed out at dinner is "ooh, tacky.".
B/
GMCarter - 26 Mar 2006 20:21 GMT snip...
>Me? Yeah, I'm working on sundays too. >Well, you can't really call it "work". >Sinking the aids-boat is my hobby. Really. Sure you're not selling something?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.diseases.cancer/browse_thread/thread/b1f3 9af5228c033a/b471e1610dd543f2?lnk=st&q=%22jan+spreen%22&rnum=8#b471e1610dd543f2
In any event, you've had a lot of kinda quirky ideas for a long time, ain't ya?
George M. Carter
js - 26 Mar 2006 21:09 GMT Le Sun, 26 Mar 2006 21:21:49 +0200, GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> a écrit:
> snip... >> Me? Yeah, I'm working on sundays too. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > George M. Carter Can that be true ? You read that message of mine I wrote years ago and you still believe in AIDS? We're on earth to learn and evolve Georgie. What did you do all those years ?
GMCarter - 27 Mar 2006 11:23 GMT >Can that be true ? >You read that message of mine I wrote years >ago and you still believe in AIDS? LOL. You bet. Your deranged ditherings underscore why you are a denialist.
>We're on earth to learn and evolve Georgie. Says who?
>What did you do all those years ? Lots. I've learned a lot. Indeed, I've learned to have a great deal less tolerance for bullshit.
George M. Carter
a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com - 03 Apr 2006 16:49 GMT "I decided to stay at home and lock everybody out in order to be sure that this fu**ing HIV will never get me by the throat. Internet provides a lot of good information
about diseases, especially about HIV and AIDS. And recently also, of course, about that go*da**ed H5N1 virus. Well, no birds around my place so it doesn't really bother me."
Seeing what one wants to see is precisely the issue. Of course, there is no reason to fear dying of AIDS as your fear of it is killing you anyway. One is just a more slow death than the other.
There is, of course, the relationship between one's fear and one's actual risk. I'm only at risk if I have sex with someone who is infected. The percentage of the population that carries the virus is relatively small.
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